[Discussion] Zoro opened a plot hole

[Bogard]

I honestly said don't get what you're confused about nor where you see a loophole as if it wouldn't be like this, haki would make no sense and then you would have quite a few loopholes.

It doesn't really make much sense to say, which is pretty much what you just implied, that all haki users are equal. That just by knowing haki you now suddenly are equal to all the other people who know haki. Of course that's not the case nor did the series ever said it was like that. When two haki armament users fight, the one with the strongest armament wins. It's that simple and logical. It's no different than for instance two sprinters having a sprinting contest or two brawlers having a strength contest. The fastest will win the race and the strongest will win the brawl in a direct confrontation. So yeah for Zoro to be able to cut Pica's full body armament haki, he had to have stronger armament haki. The fact that Zoro was able to cut him simply means that his haki was indeed far more powerful than Pica's. There is really nothing odd about it nor is there a loophole. If Zoro's haki was weaker, he wouldn't have been able to cut him.

Armament haki functions like an armour and and every armour can be broken. Zoro's armament haki was stronger, so Zoro cut Pica's armour open. Every armour has its limit. It's not like that having armament haki you are suddenly immune to all damage. Do you think for example that even someone like Doflamingo would survive if a whole mountain falls on him? Having full body armament haki is not going to help you there despite the mountain having no haki at all. Haki has a limit. Same thing when Luffy fought the Gorgon sisters. Luffy was able to generate a large amount of strength which exceeded the limits of the Gorgon Sister's armament haki. The attack was stronger than the defense, thus the defense broke. In practice however it's just very unlikely that someone can generate enough strength to break the armament haki of a haki user while not being a haki user themselves. Most people who would be able to do such a thing, would have already learned how to use haki by that point.

I wasn't saying people have similar level of haki. The main thing i don't understand however is why do you need a stronger haki than someone to bypass his defense? I mean, if it's really the case, then does it mean that if you encounter someone possessing stronger haki than you, you can't beat him? Even if you have more fire power, physical strength, speed and the lot over him? I gave the Luffy-Gorgon sister example to emphasize that main point

Luffy displayed some lackluster performance in armament, mainly compared to Doffy and theoritically he should beat him by the end of the arc and it's what makes me confused about the whole "your haki must be stronger than mine" thing

Pica basically implied his level of mastery was high enough that attacks like 1080 Pound Cannon or Ichidai sanzen sekai couldn't hurt him unless you applied your superior haki in it? But if it is the case, then i can easily see him surviving falling from a mountain considering the level of attacks he was implied to completely block are mountain busters

 

[Punk Hazard]

I wasn't saying people have similar level of haki. The main thing i don't understand however is why do you need a stronger haki than someone to bypass his defense? I mean, if it's really the case, then does it mean that if you encounter someone possessing stronger haki than you, you can't beat him? Even if you have more fire power, physical strength, speed and the lot over him? I gave the Luffy-Gorgon sister example to emphasize that main point

Luffy displayed some lackluster performance in armament, mainly compared to Doffy and theoritically he should beat him by the end of the arc and it's what makes me confused about the whole "your haki must be stronger than mine" thing

Pica basically implied his level of mastery was high enough that attacks like 1080 Pound Cannon or Ichidai sanzen sekai couldn't hurt him unless you applied your superior haki in it? But if it is the case, then i can easily see him surviving falling from a mountain considering the level of attacks he was implied to completely block are mountain busters

Not necessarily. Let's say you and I are fighting, and your Haki is level 80 while mine is 65, but your speed is 70 while mine is 90 and your strength is 70 while mine is 90. Your Haki+Strength=150 while mine is equal to 155, therefore when I strike you, you will be harmed.

 

[Bogard]

Not necessarily. Let's say you and I are fighting, and your Haki is level 80 while mine is 65, but your speed is 70 while mine is 90 and your strength is 70 while mine is 90. Your Haki+Strength=150 while mine is equal to 155, therefore when I strike you, you will be harmed.

*Implying you can beat me :wesobi:*

Okay seriously i get what you're trying to say and it's what i originally thought too, but what i mean is that Zoro shouldn't have said he needed a stronger haki to hurt Pica at all in the first place(since like you've said, even with weaker haki, but stronger fire power, you can still harm) unless he only added it arrogantly(which is possible, knowing his character)

 

[Punk Hazard]

*Implying you can beat me :wesobi:*

Okay seriously i get what you're trying to say and it's what i originally thought too, but what i mean is that Zoro shouldn't have said he needed a stronger haki to hurt Pica at all in the first place(since like you've said, even with weaker haki, but stronger fire power, you can still harm) unless he only added it arrogantly(which is possible, knowing his character)

Pretty sure that's just Zoro being coy, it's his character, like you said.

 

[Gregjader]

Pretty sure that's just Zoro being coy, it's his character, like you said.

I may be wrong but I think that it was implied that sheer will is the decisive point when two Haki users collide. Which is why I assumed Zorro was referring to the will to win when he said that to Pica.

 

[Caliburn]

I wasn't saying people have similar level of haki. The main thing i don't understand however is why do you need a stronger haki than someone to bypass his defense? I mean, if it's really the case, then does it mean that if you encounter someone possessing stronger haki than you, you can't beat him? Even if you have more fire power, physical strength, speed and the lot over him? I gave the Luffy-Gorgon sister example to emphasize that main point

Luffy displayed some lackluster performance in armament, mainly compared to Doffy and theoritically he should beat him by the end of the arc and it's what makes me confused about the whole "your haki must be stronger than mine" thing

Pica basically implied his level of mastery was high enough that attacks like 1080 Pound Cannon or Ichidai sanzen sekai couldn't hurt him unless you applied your superior haki in it? But if it is the case, then i can easily see him surviving falling from a mountain considering the level of attacks he was implied to completely block are mountain busters

*Implying you can beat me :wesobi:*

Okay seriously i get what you're trying to say and it's what i originally thought too, but what i mean is that Zoro shouldn't have said he needed a stronger haki to hurt Pica at all in the first place(since like you've said, even with weaker haki, but stronger fire power, you can still harm) unless he only added it arrogantly(which is possible, knowing his character)

I think you are seeing too much into this. Zoro didn't bypass Pica's defense, he went straight through it, he obliterated Pica's defense with the same thing Pica used as his defense. When that happens the stronger of the two will overcome the weaker one of the two.

There are however many factors involved in a battle, this is just the basic principle of every kind of fight. Whether it involves haki or not doesn't matter. But when you are fighting a guy who can use full body armament, so he is protected over his entire body, there aren't really many alternatives. Also Zoro is a very straightforward fighter, already all the way back at the start of the series he said it "a scar on the back of a swordsman is a shame". Zoro went and still goes through all his opponents head on. So yeah he had to have stronger haki to win. What else could he do?

Luffy on the other hand uses a very different kind of fighting style and he has the King's Disposition. Rayleigh already said it you have or you do not have the KD, it can not be obtained nor increased unlike regular haki, you can only learn to control it. In theory this means that people with the KD have almost an unlimited potential as you do not know where their limit is. So Luffy fighting Doflamingo is something very different than Zoro fighting Pica.

And I didn't said falling from a mountain, I said having a mountain falling on a person who is using full body armament. Another example would be that someone without any kind of haki would have a gun that shoots bullets at an extreme speed with an enormous power behind it strong enough to pierce a fully body armament user. Did the person kill the other one? Yes, but he used a gun, he didn't actually beat him in a straight fight and haki is still very well a natural skill, just like being fast or being strong.

As Zoro is a swordsman who never backs down, he logically had no other option than cutting Pica by having stronger haki. Luffy on the other hand has his DF and he has the KD. Also haki is not something that's completely independent from the rest, even when Luffy hadn't learned any haki yet, he already used it subconsciously. Just like how speed and strength are two things that have interaction with each other, so is haki connected with the rest.

I really don't get why you are so confused about this as it's like that in any kind of series and even in real life. What was Zoro supposed to do then? Haki increases your strength tremendously on the one hand and on the other hand your defense. I find it very hard to believe Zoro would have somehow enough physical strength to break the full body armament of the strongest veteran fighter of Doflamingo.

 

[Uzumaki Macho]

*Implying you can beat me :wesobi:*

Okay seriously i get what you're trying to say and it's what i originally thought too, but what i mean is that Zoro shouldn't have said he needed a stronger haki to hurt Pica at all in the first place(since like you've said, even with weaker haki, but stronger fire power, you can still harm) unless he only added it arrogantly(which is possible, knowing his character)

Luffy beat the Boa Sisters even though they had stronger CoA at the time (Luffy didn't have any CoA).