[Discussion] Zoro beats sanji 9 times outta 10
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To add more to this^^^ Zoro left better impression even at PH as Tashigi started wondering about how strong they've gotten after witnessing Zoro's fight when she didn't even bother recognizing Sanji's strength despite him fighting much stronger opponent than Zoro.
Zoro does beat Sanji all 10 times. The only scenario is when they are literally/almost equals which isn't the case anymore. There is a gap between the two, not a significant one but still noticeable. Zoro beats Sanji at high diff and likewise Luffy could beat Zoro at high diff.
Dęvîa Puęrî
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Vergo had so much haki that it morphed his body.. Zoro has only shown haki once and he applied to blades
Vergo has done the same
As well as parts of his body
And shown full body haki so he has shown better feats how is this hard not to understand .-. Zoro literally only has one feat of haki
Uzumaki Macho
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Zoro beat a FBH user so Vergo using FBH doesn't make his Haki better than Zoro's.
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I kinda like how people enjoy going "Maaaan, Zoro hasn't even gone all out yet. We haven't seen all of his feats" when you compare him to someone like, say, Law. But then when you're comparing Sanji to Zoro, suddenly the concept that we haven't seen Sanji go all out either doesn't apply.
As for the Robin thing, of course Robin's gigantic arms weren't affected by the water. The mass and volume of those arms would have caused them to be exponentially more dense than Robin's normal body. Robin's main body feels pain when the extensions/clones of her body are injured. This does not mean what can injure Robin's main body can injure the gigantic body parts because their density should be much more than Robin's.
I do recede the point though. Not because of Robin, but because those fodder from the ship Surume crushed were able to survive the depth.
It means in a fight, Zoro has the higher probability of winning. At least, that's how I meant it before people took it as blasphemy to their almighty God, the Pirate Hunter.
@Bold: That's not true. Saying someone would win even once means there is a chance they can win, not that they're equal. The slightest change of something can cause the winner of the fight to be different. If Usopp hadn't yelled at Lucci, Lucci could have killed Luffy. If Luffy's Gear 3 Chibi time-out had lasted a while longer, Lucci would have killed him. If Lucci had dodged Gigant Pistol instead of using Tekkai, the fight would have gone much different.
No fight in set in stone. The winner of each fight is determined by the specific events that happen in them. The only times you can ignore this is when the gap between fighters are exponentially large, which is definitely not the case between Zoro and Sanji, it wouldn't make sense. That's why a vs thread between Akainu and Aokiji would have more scenarios, more arguments, than a fight between Shanks and Koala. The closer two people are to each other, the greater the amount of scenarios where either can win. This is why I said it'd be more like 6 out of ten times for Zoro, it means that it's more likely for the events of the fight to play out in Zoro's favor than they are for Sanji. It means that it's possible to create a specific scenario where Sanji wins, and it's a valid argument, but there are more scenarios you can create for why Zoro wins.
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Says you. I can just easily say the gap between them isn't as big as you're making it, and that it will be an Akainu vs Aokiji type fight.
Assertion=/=arguing.
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Based on what? The only feat Zoro has that places him above Sanji is the cut against Pica.
Evaluating each fight/skirmish the two had after the timeskip, there isn't much that places Zoro leagues above Sanji.
When they both fought against the Pacifista, they had equal portrayal. When they fought the Fishman Pirates, who were a bunch of fodder, they had equal portrayal.
Move onto Punk Hazard: Zoro fought Monet, Sanji fought Vergo. These combat scenarios are not proportionate to each other to determine the gap between them. Monet is vastly inferior to ANYONE in the Monster Trio. One slash from an injured Tashigi downed Monet. I repeat, one slash from an injured Tashigi downed Monet. Bear in mind the only amount of damage she had taken before this came from a shallow cut on her cheek. Hardly an impressive feat from Zoro's side. On the other hand, Sanji fought Vergo and got his leg cracked from one hit from Vergo's leg, who wasn't even using Koka. Puts Sanji on a pretty low pedestal, right? Wrong. It was explicitly stated just earlier that Sanji's body was vastly weakened due to Nami's inability to defend it properly while her mind inhabited it. Sanji was not 100% against Vergo, and Zoro's performance was against someone Tashigi could one-hit KO. So what exactly about this arc made Zoro look so much more impressive than Sanji? Was it the part where Sanji lost while severely handicapped, or the part where Zoro won against some ages below the level of the Monster Trio?
Then let's go to Punk Hazard. Zoro's opponent was Pica, someone incredibly weak but made up for it with a tricky DF perfect for a fighter like Zoro. Sanji clashed with Doflamingo, someone immensely more powerful than Pica, and got nailed with several attacks, and while stunned was able to spring right back multiple times. But, there's one more for Zoro. Fujitora. When Fujitora slammed Zoro with one casual attack, Zoro was left winded, breathing heavily while on one knee. See what happened to Zoro when he went up against someone who wasn't some baby playing distraction? He got his ass handed to him.
So let's recap. Zoro looked uber badass against people whose power was severely lower than the Monster Trio. Sanji got his ass handed to him while his body was severely weakened, and then again against someone Luffy needed help to defeat. When a fighter on a similar level clashed with Zoro, one casual attack from them left Zoro breathing heavily and unable to stand for a moment. Every other skirmish the two were involved with were against fodder they were able to one-shot, both of them.
So I ask again, aside from slicing through Pica, what feats place Zoro exponentially higher than Sanji?
Lol the amount of garbage I see in that post is astounding. You know why Pica looks weak? Because Zoro is that strong. Pica and Vergo have had similar portrayal as Doffy's 2 strongest men.
Sanji's performance vs Vergo = Sanji comes out looking like the weaker man
Zoro's performance vs Pica = Pica comes out looking like a fodder
So basically we have you saying this "Sanji does bad against someone = opponent was very strong / Zoro easily handles someone of equal standing = opponent was a fodder" With this trash logic, no matter what Zoro does it will never be impressive.
You choose to say the opponent was weak rather than say Zoro was strong, an opponent that was of equal standing with Vergo and the strongest subordinate in Dressrosa.
Alright getting Doffy's strongest subordinates out of the way in which Zoro heavily out did Sanji. Lets get to the big boys.
Fujitora > Doflamingo.
Sanji vs Doflamingo = Sanji attacks Doflamingo, gets his kicks blocked
Zoro vs Fujitora = Zoro caught completely offguard by Fujitora and yet still with brute strength fights through Fuji's gravity (which a
So against "strong" opponents Zoro = 2, Sanji = 0.
Like I said to the other guy earlier stop using excuses from prior arcs. And get this trash logic that whoever Zoro beats is a fodder, I'll let it slide for pre Dressrosa opponents, but Pica was put on the same pedestal as Vergo.
Sanji's performance vs Vergo = Sanji comes out looking like the weaker man
Zoro's performance vs Pica = Pica comes out looking like a fodder
So basically we have you saying this "Sanji does bad against someone = opponent was very strong / Zoro easily handles someone of equal standing = opponent was a fodder" With this trash logic, no matter what Zoro does it will never be impressive.
You choose to say the opponent was weak rather than say Zoro was strong, an opponent that was of equal standing with Vergo and the strongest subordinate in Dressrosa.
Alright getting Doffy's strongest subordinates out of the way in which Zoro heavily out did Sanji. Lets get to the big boys.
Fujitora > Doflamingo.
Sanji vs Doflamingo = Sanji attacks Doflamingo, gets his kicks blocked
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when Luffy's basic g2 gatling
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, looks like a tool and had to be saved. Zoro vs Fujitora = Zoro caught completely offguard by Fujitora and yet still with brute strength fights through Fuji's gravity (which a
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) while simultaneously sending a flying slash which sends the
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So against "strong" opponents Zoro = 2, Sanji = 0.
Like I said to the other guy earlier stop using excuses from prior arcs. And get this trash logic that whoever Zoro beats is a fodder, I'll let it slide for pre Dressrosa opponents, but Pica was put on the same pedestal as Vergo.
Dęvîa Puęrî
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no that justs means that zoro's haki is stronger then said fbh user
the fact that vergo can spread his haki all over his body shows his mastery> zoro's whose only shown to sprread to his swords... also u didnt address anything else i said -.-
Uzumaki Macho
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That doesn't make any sense. If Zoro has CoA better then that of a FBH user, then how does someone being a FBH user put their Haki above Zoro's?
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Showing you didn't read my post. I never said Vergo was strong, hence why Sanji lost. I said Sanji was severely handicapped, hence why he looked much weaker than he actually is. Vergo vs Sanji is useless as a measure of Sanji's strength because Sanji was weakened at the time.
Also, are you trying to say Monet is strong? The woman who was knocked out in one blow by Tashigi after Tashigi was beaten down? Are you telling me I'm wrong to say she's weak?
2? Uhhhh no. Zoro doesn't have two against anyone, much less one against Fujitora. A simple clash with Fujitora left Zoro panting heavily on his knee. Zoro exerted himself almost completely just to get out of a casual gravity.
As for Law having trouble with it, so? Is physical strength supposed to be Law's strong suit? How is that impressive? Sanji probably has higher physical strength than Law. Law's fighting style doesn't involve physical strength whatsoever, so how is having a better strength feat than Law impressive? That's like saying having higher intelligence than Luffy is impressive, especially when Law escaped his using his own way and strengths.
As for Fujitora and Doflamingo, Doflamingo is not that much lower than Issho that you think. Luffy was knocking Fujitora back and even bruised his face with Gear Third and Second. While Fujitora was holding back, a severely weakened Doflamingo was dancing around Gear Third and Gear Second. Doflamingo is much higher than you're giving him credit for, even while he isn't equal to Fujitora.
So far, it's Zoro=1 from cutting Pica and Sanji=0. Which is hardly a big difference.
Sanji was severely handicapped really? Well then this is an even worse look for Sanji considering Usopp tanked the same damn attack and didn't show any signs of major injury after. Stop overrating that injury.
Lol these people man, clinging on to the little excuses they have.
I can play the same game. Zoro took an intense gravity attack from Fujitora before engaging Pica, do you see me complaining about Zoro not being 100% before his fight?
And what about Vergo who got cheapshotted by a Diable Jambe to the head to start his fight?
Just stop you're making Sanji look worse by bringing up lame excuses, things even Usopp handled.
Nope. Don't know where you inferred this from.
Lol this guy.......I didn't say "much weaker version" for no reason. Law is not some fodder, all his base stats are up there with others in his tier, the attack Fujitora used on Zoro was multiple times more powerful. Not to mention Zoro was completely caught offguard by the attack in the first place, and he still handled the situation much better than Sanji did against Doflamingo.
I don't know about you but countering an out of nowhere Admiral attack at the same time as sending the Admiral sliding back a meter is pretty damn impressive.
And I'm not about to argue Fujitora vs Doflamingo, just know that Fujitora is stronger and Zoro got caught offguard, yet he still outperformed Sanji.
Vandenre1ch
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-Fujitora effortlessly blocks Zoro's slash and Doffy blocks Sanji's kick and his face showed that he had to try somewhat
-Fujitora sends Zoro crashing down with a casual attack and Doffy cuts Sanji
-Fujitora and Doffy underestimated their opponents
-Fujitora is surpised and blocks another flash and Doffy is surprised and blocks DJ specture
-Both Fujitora and Doffy compliment their opponents
-Fujitora flies away and Doffy goes in for the kill
-Both Zoro and Sanji are bleeding
Zoro and Sanji's performance is at least 95% percent the same. Also, against Pica, I do believe Zoro was covered in bruises/scratches and was breathing heavily at the end of the fight....don't know why so many people on Zoro's side ignore that and only concentrate on the final hit.
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The injury was attributed to Nami's inexperience with using Sanji's body, thus not being able to defend it properly, not the scale of the attack. Sanji himself stated that the damage should not have been that high, but it was because of an inexperienced mind inhabiting it.
Is ad hominem supposed to be a real argument now? Is going "Wow you suck" "Your argument sucks" "You're looking pathetic" supposed to be actually good debating? If not, what the hell are you doing? If being argued against annoys you to the point you insult the person arguing simply because they don't lie down and concede to you, why the hell are you even participating in this forum?
But did that impact that the fight in any way? The difference between Sanji being injured by an attack and Zoro being winded by Fujitora's was that Sanji's injury was explicitly stated to come into play later on and was explicitly said to have weakened his body long after the attack was taken. The same cannot be said for Zoro, who showed zero long-term injury from the clash.
What about it? Did I say anything about Vergo being stronger or weaker than normal?
Except Sanji wasn't the one there to handle the attack, it was Nami. Because she was not experienced in using Sanji's body, she took the attack worse than he would, resulting in the injury, and worse than Usopp would in his own body. If Sanji had been controlling his body, it would have been able to handle it better through Sanji defending himself.
You're accusation that I'm making all of Zoro's opponents weak implies that I'm doing the same for Monet, meaning she's stronger than I'm trying to give her credit for.
Again with this. Does this make you feel good about yourself or something? Does insulting the people you debate with supposed to be aiding your argument; are you hoping that if you belittle the people you argue against, people reading your arguments will think they're better? Because it doesn't work that way, and you actually just look pretty desperate. Again, if all you're gonna do is throw petty insults because someone is conceding to you as you want, why are you here?
Not really. Just because two people are in the same tier doesn't mean their stats are the same. Law can be in the same tier as someone because his DF power is extremely hax. Law is in the same tier as Luffy, but his speed and physical strength are much lower than Luffy's. Look at Marco and Jozu. They're in the same league, and Marco didn't demonstrate ANY strength feats on Jozu's level as the boulder deadlift.
I'm not denying it wasn't much more powerful. Hence why it caused Zoro to be winded and reduced to one knee momentarily, it was just that strong. And that's the point. When Zoro fought babies, he looked uber cool. Then he fought someone who wasn't a baby, and got his ass handed to him.
Except Zoro didn't counter the attack. The attack hit Zoro head on, and forced him into the ground. Countering the attack would have been to have dodged or blocked it before it struck him and forced him into the ground, which he did not. He didn't counter anymore than Doflamingo countered Kong Gun. Yes, repelling Fujitora's attack after being slammed with it and forcing Fuji back a bit is impressive for someone on Zoro's level, but the entire thing left Zoro exhausted; albeit for a moment, still exhausted. So while it is impressive that he was able to do it, the fact that it exhausted him speaks more than the fact that he did it and shows how overwhelming the situation for Zoro was.
Which is the point. When Zoro fought someone worth salt, he was completely overwhelmed. Hell, it was impressive that Sanji was able to spring back from Doflamingo's attacks and remain standing and moving. Sanji was able to help combat a Yonko's ship after the entire ordeal, so it's not like Doflamingo whooped Sanji into submission.
And I'm not about to argue Fujitora vs Doflamingo, just know that Fujitora is stronger and Zoro got caught offguard, yet he still outperformed Sanji.[/QUOTE]
Just know you can't deny what I said happened happened. Fuji got bruised and held back by something a weakened Doflamingo could casually dodge or avoid, albeit Fuji was holding back. Make of that not what you will, but what it means in reality.
Lol stop being so damn sensitive Riker.
Lol which brings me to my point. It makes Sanji look even weaker now. Are you trying to defend the character or adding insult to injury? Do I need to keep pointing out that Usopp handled that attack?
An Admirals attack is ignored but lets keep bringing up an attack Usopp handled without any major problems.
Lol it changes the whole "it was an unfair fight" notion. Nobody makes this excuse for Vergo, yet I keep hearing the same excuses being made for Sanji, going by this logic it was an even playing field.
Usopp still handled it...and sure Nami handled it worse than Sanji would, but lol it was his own body, his own durability...........the body he spent two years training. The fact that Usopp held up well against that attack automatically makes this injury excuse irrelevant.
So lets move on from irrelevant things to keep the argument going and focus on what really matters which is Vergo and Pica being the strongest yet Zoro and Sanji being portrayed in completely different manners against their respective opponent.
She is stronger than you're giving credit for, since
1.Luffy's
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got defended against by her. 2.She couldn't even get back up from Zoro making her shit her pants, she had no will left. So even an ant could have taken her out at that point, which is what Tashigi is.
Regardless she is pretty irrelevant to this discussion since, she isn't even worth mentioning as an opponent.
lmfao cry me a river guy, stop whining, and breaking down two irrelevant words I said by replying with paragraphs. Are these words striking you that hard lol? Get over it.
Nah generally in One Piece , people from the same tier have an all around stat category. Some things can stand out here and there but the base stats in one way or another amount to close levels. Law has his DF for movement speed, and the most important speed is reaction speed.
Before Dressorsa people thought Law was physically weak, yet he turned out to be quite the tank for taking attacks and still continuing to fight. Thats because if he was all DF he would not be on Luffy's tier. It's like trying to cheat your way to Admiral level, it can't happen. Take away the DF's from the Admirals and they still belong in the same general tier.
Sure I mean he got caught offguard by a top tier, yet he fought through this and sent his opponent a meter back. Ass handed or not...damn impressive, much more than Sanji's performance.
Lol I wouldn't throw around the term exhausted so easily, you don't get exhausted for one second and fine the next. He handled it as best as he could given the circumstances, he was attacking Doflamingo, Fujitora appears out of nowhere sending him down, he fights through it and sends a slash.
Cool.
Not getting into this. Fujitora > Doflamingo. The gap could be minimal (which isn't true) It doesn't matter to me, I'm still gonna use this fact to add to Zoro's feat.
Yup except for the fact that
1.Fujitora > Doflamingo
2.Sanji caught Doflamingo offguard, whereas Fujitora caught Zoro offguard.
This is why Zoro came out as the more impressive one out of the two. Not to mention from an authors standpoint, Oda just made Sanji look bad by having the situation turn out the way it did (Law saving Sanji), whereas he protected Zoro from this or maybe Zoro is just strong enough to not look like a tool, either one.
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Stop being so desperate to debate
No it doesn't. Sanji's body was severely crippled, so his performance was much worse than it should have been. Therefore, we can't use it to evaluate Sanji's top strength. To evaluate Sanji's top strength based on the fight against Vergo where he was injured is the same as evaluating Whitebeard's top strength based on the fact that a crew of rookies killed him after he received heavy injuries.
Usopp handling the attack means nothing because it was explicitly stated the damage sustained was not due to the attack or Sanji's incapability to handle it, but Nami's incapability to handle it while being in Sanji's body.
Tell me, please, that you understand the difference between Usopp handling it because he was in his own body, and Sanji's body being injured because Nami couldn't not handle it(the body) properly. If Law switches Whitebeard's mind with a baby's, and WB's body is cut into pieces because Usopp attacked it and the baby couldn't control the body to defend, would you go "Well, the baby being in WB's body had nothing to do with?"
Not the same. Sanji's injury was induced through an external factor that wasn't a member of the fight. The Diamble Jambe to Vergo's head is part of the fight. What you're saying here is the same as saying Luffy knocking out Lucci with Jet Gatling doesn't count because Luffy damaged Lucci before with other attacks. An attack delivered during the fight between the two people fighting counts; damage from an attack from an external source that isn't part of the fight does not.
It was explicitly stated that Sanji's body was weaker than normal, and was immediately attributed to the fact that Nami was in his body. Are you saying to ignore what Oda has clearly and explicitly declared because it doesn't fit your opinion?
Sanji's body was long-term damaged. Zoro's was not, being only momentarily exhausted. Therefore, their performances against those two people do not match up proportionately, and cannot be compared.