[Spoilers] Zetsu and Madara

Scorps

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I know that several threads have been made about madara and zetsu theories, however after reading all of them I formulated my own.

A little fact gathering:

When Minato explained to Naruto what happened the night he was born, one thing kept going through my mind: the moment minato struck madara with a rasengan. His body reacted like the zetsu clones bodies.

Another thing that kept sweeping through my mind is that when sasuke receives the eyes from his brother (and madara does so as well) he says he feels itachi's power and liforce flow through him.

Also the whole "mask with one whole in it" kept me thinking....

Madara states he created zetsu (both white and black) and we can see that he is at least knowledgeable with zetsu to use the Gedo Mezo's sealed biju chakra to augment the zetsu and make even more. We also know that zetsu seem to have been created by using cells harvested from the first hokage. Madara said he was never the same after the battle between him and the first. He did something to him. Also madara says that he has the power of the senju in him (somewhere) that's why he could use izanagi.

Also, the black half of zetsu seems to have a much more darker personality and the white half a much more lighter one. Like they are actually very diferent beings.

We know that madara was fully powerfull before battling with the first and after was depleted of almost all his power.

We also know that he hasn't transplanted both rinnegan into himself and that he did transplant one without kabuto's help (without medical jutsu).



So the theory part...

I think that after the battle with the first, not much was left of Madara's physical form. He probably lost half his head and much of his body. The parts salvaged were probably only his right EMS and part of his body and head. He made it seem like he was dead and harashisama believed so.

After that he has to have done a few things that I can't explain:

First he either Created or Found Black Zetsu. Then, using black zetsu, he created the white half with the firsts DNA, by letting it feed on the black halfs chakra. (I believe the black part is the "original one" because it seems that only one exists and he's the only one with the venus trap thing, he is problably like the original plant zetsu) He then implanted a white zetsu into his damaged body, replacing the parts that were lost or damaged, making him more or less able to fight again. The white zetsu ability to clone ones chakra would mean he could be used to merge with a person and replace and substitute the damaged parts.

This also helps explain madara's two diferent abilities: First his "black hole" jutsu, similar to kamui. This ability I believe is 100% from his EMS/MS. No doubt there. But the ability to merge with solid matter and travel through it? The same ability zetsu has? I believe that ability comes from madara's zetsu half. That's why he can't use them both at the same time and they don't seem related. Besides, Kakashi's MS has a similiar ability to the Black hole jutsu that madara has, but no other character so far has shown the same abiltiy to merge and pass through solid matter like madara and zetsu have.

Also, the fact that madara has only part of his body may explain why he hasn't used jutsu so far. Only a summoning wich we know that some characters can use without hand seals. Since he only has half his body (problaby only one original arm) he wouldn't be able to correclty mold chakra between his two diferent arms. It would be like two people use one the right hand and the other the left to make the hand seals to use a tech. That's why he only uses eye techniques. He only has his eye.

Also, i don't believe that he would sacrifice his left EMS in the battle with konan if he had it. He could simply put her under a genjutsu. Or do a number of things to her. After itachi killed the clan, madara stuck up on eyes. He placed a normal sharingan on his left eye socket (the white zetsu side) so that he could have both senju (the white zetsu) and uchiha together (in his zetsu side)enabling him to use izanagi with his white half.

Than with the rinnegan, he simply used the white zetsu part of him to implant in it the rinnegan, making it so that it had the senju vitality (white zetsu) to use the rinnegan. If he had implated the rinnegan in a uchiha body, this would have killed that body. Even nagato was uzumaki so that he could withstand the rinnegan's use. So when he says he has the senju DNA, he's refering to his white zetsu half.

I believe that although he is capable of controling his left half, the control isn't perfect enough so that he can share its abilities. I mean, I can walk, talk, fight, and use the abilties of the left side as his own...but only if he isn't using the abilities of his right side.

I mean, he can phase through an object but not while getting the enemy in a genjutsu with his right sharingan. Or he can use the rinnegan to do some jutsu but not at the same time as he's using the sharingan. Techniques that require hand seals are also one thing he can't do because although the zetsu half has copied his chakra and keeps his body sustained, he can't completly merge his chakra with it, making it so that the two flows of chakra aren't acting as one. Is a Senju flow with and Uhicha flow.

Hinata's byakugan couldn't see it because the zetsu copys one's body to perfection (chakra circulatory system and all). But I believe that that isn't enough to make it possible to combine the two halfs into performing a jutsu. Even if the zetsu clones the circulatory system, the chakra inside it can only be one at a time. Senju and uchiha aren't the same chakra and one can't change one's chakra. So, when using a zetsu ability, the senju chakra overwelms the uchiha and vice versa.

I know it's long, but hope someone finds it logical and possible. Cumpz!
 
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frenk

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it was naruto's mother who explained what happend the night of his birth, not minato.

your theorie could be possible, it would also explain why madara said that he was just a shadow of his former self. in short; madara used zetsu to recover from the battle with the first.
 

Taiketsu Yagami

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O_O wow that was a lot of reading.

I agree with u considering the episodes where madara lose limbs that resemble zetsu.white half. Not to mention the whole intangible thing and the coincidence that he only used eye techniques.
 
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So far out of all the Zetara theories I've read, I like this one the best.
Some things that you wrote made me consider different possibilities though.
I think everyone's getting on the right track, but I bet we're still going to be surprised. Nice theory!:hug:
 
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Scorps

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U have nice theory to come up with but i dont agree with u pal...............
Tks though! :D

So far out of all the Zetara theories I've read, I like this one the best.
Some things that you wrote made me consider different possibilities though.
I think everyone's getting on the right track, but I bet we're still going to be surprised. Nice theory!:hug:
Tks :D

Good observation. But still don't know if I can totally agree eith the theory. But over all I like your thread.
Tks =)

O_O wow that was a lot of reading.

I agree with u considering the episodes where madara lose limbs that resemble zetsu.white half. Not to mention the whole intangible thing and the coincidence that he only used eye techniques.

I hope to get it right! :D

Good explain but I don't agree with some part...
Tks! What part? lol

it was naruto's mother who explained what happend the night of his birth, not minato.

your theorie could be possible, it would also explain why madara said that he was just a shadow of his former self. in short; madara used zetsu to recover from the battle with the first.
Tks! I stand corrected!!! :D
 

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Besides, Kakashi's MS has a similiar ability to the Black hole jutsu that madara has, but no other character so far has shown the same abiltiy to merge and pass through solid matter like madara and zetsu have.
Indeed Orochimaru did merge with trees. He did in the forest of death? where chuunin tests were, to found the scrolls of heaven and earth.
 
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Tvqxeqlapcfr

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Good theory, I've had a similar idea in mind. But keep in mind, life isn't always what it seems. It's not like just two pieces of paper, black and white. It is thousands of millions of sheets, all different shades of gray... In other words, there may be a possibility that Zetsu originated from Madara's DNA, giving him the power to travel through matter. What do you think?
 

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Indeed Orochimaru did merge with trees. He did in the forest of death? where chuunin tests were, to found the scrolls of heaven and earth.
orochimaru used Leech All Creation: Attack Prevention Technique a technique that allows the user to merge with a object. But it doesn't seem to allow the user to travel whitthin the object like madara does. So far that tech is unique to madara and zetsu. Yamato used a smillar doton technique hidden in stones but one can only travel within rock or earth. So i maintain that no one else has shown that ability. :D

Good theory, I've had a similar idea in mind. But keep in mind, life isn't always what it seems. It's not like just two pieces of paper, black and white. It is thousands of millions of sheets, all different shades of gray... In other words, there may be a possibility that Zetsu originated from Madara's DNA, giving him the power to travel through matter. What do you think?
Hum...the black half perhaps...but the white half came from the first's cells.
 

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Good Theory. It made an interesting read, for a change, to see a properly formatted theory instead of just a one line guess. Kudos to you dude.
As for the theory itself - it’s a possibility, but I’m not too sure I agree with everything. Still - worth considering. Keep them coming.
 
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Good Theory. It made an interesting read, for a change, to see a properly formatted theory instead of just a one line guess. Kudos to you dude.
As for the theory itself - it’s a possibility, but I’m not too sure I agree with everything. Still - worth considering. Keep them coming.
Thks for the input! :D
 

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Hum...the black half perhaps...but the white half came from the first's cells.
The white came from the following:
  • Add some natural form
  • Add some chakra
  • Add some Black Half DNA
  • Add some 1st Hokage DNA
  • Add some Madara DNA
  • Add some unknown human DNA
Allow me to explain:

Natural form: He had to have come from somewhere. "Matter cannot be created or destroyed; only changed." Chakra is everywhere, so why not have an original form of human or plant DNA?

Chakra: A change like this would require massive amounts of Chakra. It's very simple really. Why do you think they needed Biju chakra to create all the Zetsu; why not just use your own?

Black Zetsu DNA: Simple: If the first one came from the origional, this has to be in there somewhere. How else would the two be able to commune with each other?

1st Hokage DNA: Explained

Madara DNA: Explained

Unknown Human DNA: This would explain how he absorbs chakra and makes exact copies. It is just that simple.

My opinion: The Black Zetsu came from Madara. The White is a combination from multiple sources. Simple mathematics, and you get one awesome dude.
 

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The white came from the following:
  • Add some natural form
  • Add some chakra
  • Add some Black Half DNA
  • Add some 1st Hokage DNA
  • Add some Madara DNA
  • Add some unknown human DNA
Allow me to explain:

Natural form: He had to have come from somewhere. "Matter cannot be created or destroyed; only changed." Chakra is everywhere, so why not have an original form of human or plant DNA?

Chakra: A change like this would require massive amounts of Chakra. It's very simple really. Why do you think they needed Biju chakra to create all the Zetsu; why not just use your own?

Black Zetsu DNA: Simple: If the first one came from the origional, this has to be in there somewhere. How else would the two be able to commune with each other?

1st Hokage DNA: Explained

Madara DNA: Explained

Unknown Human DNA: This would explain how he absorbs chakra and makes exact copies. It is just that simple.

My opinion: The Black Zetsu came from Madara. The White is a combination from multiple sources. Simple mathematics, and you get one awesome dude.

Makes some sense. Only thing that the white part doesn't have madara DNA. Or least, not in any way that matters.

As we saw with danzo's arm, the first's DNA isn't tame or gentle. And when used, it manifests even a slight face-like thing on an arm. So I don't think that Madara needed much raw material to produce something from the first's DNA. Only needed a substrat that could give sustenance to the other: the black zetsu. The black Zetsu is a curious thing. I seems (from the plant-like look) to have a connection with the first hokage. But he doesn't dysplay the same traits as the white one.

Also, Yin and Yang manipulation and chakra haven't been completely explained so far. A theory which I have no proof what so ever and can't give any ojbective reason for is that Zetsu (black and white) is the object of grown Harashisama cells, manipulated so that one side represents the aspects of yin and the other the aspects of yang from the first's chakra.

If so, the white part would be related to yang release: life. Remember that yamato's mokuton reacted to narutos yang chakra? The white zetsu can replicate and has a "organic" feel to it, leading me to believe that it's connected to the part of the first's chakra related to vitality, life: Yang.

The black zetsu should then be the manifestation of the yin part of the firsts DNA: Imagination and Spirit. However, I really don't know much about Yin and Yang to elaborate further, so i didn't include that part in the theory.

If so, that means that madara found a way to manipulate the firsts cells in order to produce a being that manifests itself individually as the yin (black zetsu) and the yang (white zetsu) parts of harashisama's chakra. Since it's just pure conjecture, can't elaborate further on that...
 

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I know that several threads have been made about madara and zetsu theories, however after reading all of them I formulated my own.

A little fact gathering:

When Minato explained to Naruto what happened the night he was born, one thing kept going through my mind: the moment minato struck madara with a rasengan. His body reacted like the zetsu clones bodies.

Another thing that kept sweeping through my mind is that when sasuke receives the eyes from his brother (and madara does so as well) he says he feels itachi's power and liforce flow through him.

Also the whole "mask with one whole in it" kept me thinking....

Madara states he created zetsu (both white and black) and we can see that he is at least knowledgeable with zetsu to use the Gedo Mezo's sealed biju chakra to augment the zetsu and make even more. We also know that zetsu seem to have been created by using cells harvested from the first hokage. Madara said he was never the same after the battle between him and the first. He did something to him. Also madara says that he has the power of the senju in him (somewhere) that's why he could use izanagi.

Also, the black half of zetsu seems to have a much more darker personality and the white half a much more lighter one. Like they are actually very diferent beings.

We know that madara was fully powerfull before battling with the first and after was depleted of almost all his power.

We also know that he hasn't transplanted both rinnegan into himself and that he did transplant one without kabuto's help (without medical jutsu).



So the theory part...

I think that after the battle with the first, not much was left of Madara's physical form. He probably lost half his head and much of his body. The parts salvaged were probably only his right EMS and part of his body and head. He made it seem like he was dead and harashisama believed so.

After that he has to have done a few things that I can't explain:

First he either Created or Found Black Zetsu. Then, using black zetsu, he created the white half with the firsts DNA, by letting it feed on the black halfs chakra. (I believe the black part is the "original one" because it seems that only one exists and he's the only one with the venus trap thing, he is problably like the original plant zetsu) He then implanted a white zetsu into his damaged body, replacing the parts that were lost or damaged, making him more or less able to fight again. The white zetsu ability to clone ones chakra would mean he could be used to merge with a person and replace and substitute the damaged parts.

This also helps explain madara's two diferent abilities: First his "black hole" jutsu, similar to kamui. This ability I believe is 100% from his EMS/MS. No doubt there. But the ability to merge with solid matter and travel through it? The same ability zetsu has? I believe that ability comes from madara's zetsu half. That's why he can't use them both at the same time and they don't seem related. Besides, Kakashi's MS has a similiar ability to the Black hole jutsu that madara has, but no other character so far has shown the same abiltiy to merge and pass through solid matter like madara and zetsu have.

Also, the fact that madara has only part of his body may explain why he hasn't used jutsu so far. Only a summoning wich we know that some characters can use without hand seals. Since he only has half his body (problaby only one original arm) he wouldn't be able to correclty mold chakra between his two diferent arms. It would be like two people use one the right hand and the other the left to make the hand seals to use a tech. That's why he only uses eye techniques. He only has his eye.

Also, i don't believe that he would sacrifice his left EMS in the battle with konan if he had it. He could simply put her under a genjutsu. Or do a number of things to her. After itachi killed the clan, madara stuck up on eyes. He placed a normal sharingan on his left eye socket (the white zetsu side) so that he could have both senju (the white zetsu) and uchiha together (in his zetsu side)enabling him to use izanagi with his white half.

Than with the rinnegan, he simply used the white zetsu part of him to implant in it the rinnegan, making it so that it had the senju vitality (white zetsu) to use the rinnegan. If he had implated the rinnegan in a uchiha body, this would have killed that body. Even nagato was uzumaki so that he could withstand the rinnegan's use. So when he says he has the senju DNA, he's refering to his white zetsu half.

I believe that although he is capable of controling his left half, the control isn't perfect enough so that he can share its abilities. I mean, I can walk, talk, fight, and use the abilties of the left side as his own...but only if he isn't using the abilities of his right side.

I mean, he can phase through an object but not while getting the enemy in a genjutsu with his right sharingan. Or he can use the rinnegan to do some jutsu but not at the same time as he's using the sharingan. Techniques that require hand seals are also one thing he can't do because although the zetsu half has copied his chakra and keeps his body sustained, he can't completly merge his chakra with it, making it so that the two flows of chakra aren't acting as one. Is a Senju flow with and Uhicha flow.

Hinata's byakugan couldn't see it because the zetsu copys one's body to perfection (chakra circulatory system and all). But I believe that that isn't enough to make it possible to combine the two halfs into performing a jutsu. Even if the zetsu clones the circulatory system, the chakra inside it can only be one at a time. Senju and uchiha aren't the same chakra and one can't change one's chakra. So, when using a zetsu ability, the senju chakra overwelms the uchiha and vice versa.

I know it's long, but hope someone finds it logical and possible. Cumpz!
No offense, but this is all nonsense in my opinion. For starters, how can you say Madara/tobi can't use handsigns to perform jutsu? Bottom left:


How did madara's body when struck by minato's rasengan react like a zetsu body? Elaborate cuz you give no substance to this.
Also, you seem to assume that to do stuff like transplant eyes etc you need zetsu. That's total BS. Danzo had 10 sharingans, there's no evidence he ever even met zetsu. Madara, being a former konoha shinobi and the founder of akatsuki, may well have had help from Orochimaru with his longevity/transplant of body parts tech's w/o having to use zetsu, the technique's would have been more effective and since i don't recall any evidence stating that the zetsu's are immortal this scenario seems more likely.
Guys like you give zetsu too much credit. Its simple really: he can absorb chakra(and mimic the chakra of those he absorbs), make multiple clones of himself and merge with the ground. That's it. Stop assuming stuff that has no basis. Yes, they are a million of him in this war but that's because akatsuki has 7 bijuu, that's a helluva lot of chakra and someone who's power is to absorb chakra is perfect as a tool in such a situation.
 

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No offense, but this is all nonsense in my opinion. For starters, how can you say Madara/tobi can't use handsigns to perform jutsu? Bottom left:


How did madara's body when struck by minato's rasengan react like a zetsu body? Elaborate cuz you give no substance to this.
Also, you seem to assume that to do stuff like transplant eyes etc you need zetsu. That's total BS. Danzo had 10 sharingans, there's no evidence he ever even met zetsu. Madara, being a former konoha shinobi and the founder of akatsuki, may well have had help from Orochimaru with his longevity/transplant of body parts tech's w/o having to use zetsu, the technique's would have been more effective and since i don't recall any evidence stating that the zetsu's are immortal this scenario seems more likely.
Guys like you give zetsu too much credit. Its simple really: he can absorb chakra(and mimic the chakra of those he absorbs), make multiple clones of himself and merge with the ground. That's it. Stop assuming stuff that has no basis. Yes, they are a million of him in this war but that's because akatsuki has 7 bijuu, that's a helluva lot of chakra and someone who's power is to absorb chakra is perfect as a tool in such a situation.

No offense, relax. But don't appreciate the whole "guys like you" reference as well as the general tone of the reply... seems a little to... harsh...As if I had offended you in some way...which i didn't as far as I know...

Also, I didn't say he couldn't perform jutsu. Only that he couldn't perform complete hand seals and jutsu that needed them...which he didn't, since that isn't a complete hand seal (as stated in narutowikia its a one handed ram/tiger seal, used to gather chakra...) and besides, it's performed with only the right hand (the side were he has the sharingan which he is preparing to use to control the nine tails...need I say more?) so my theory in that aspect still remains intact.

As for madara looking like a zetsu...






Are you saying that there's no similarity between madara's arm and even the texture of his body when it's hit by the rasengan and the texture and look of the zetsu clone as it grows from the bodies of the mizukage, tsuchikage, etc? No similarity at all?


I never said that you need a zetsu to implant an eye(like a sharingan). Only said that zetsu's ability to merge with humans (and human parts) as well as its ability to mimic chakras and physical characteristics is probably why Madara had the rinnegan implanted in him without medical jutsu involved (if his half is a white zetsu, his half would assimilate the rinnegan/sharingan without the need to use medical jutsu). And so far, to implant an eye it's necessary to use medical jutsu. Madara (as far as we know) doesn't use medical jutsu. So, for him to assimilate the rinnegan without help, there's got to be a reason: white zetsu's abilities.

But it's a theory...notthing more!
 

Taiketsu Yagami

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Honestly both of u are making a lot of sense right now. There techniqually is no proof Madara cant use hand signs(that time was related to his eye technique) or that madara is part zetsu(Although there have been signs) Heck, theres no proof Madara even still has his MS or EMS since he never showed it even when using eye techniques. But all in all, these are Theories aka: what people think about a certain agenda. Theres no need to say someone is wrong, especially when they techniqually aren't wrong since theres no proof.
 
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