Zabuza vs Part 1 Hiruzen

[ShaneEyyy]

Location: Where Zabuza fought Team 7 the first time (for Zabuza will have water and Hiruzen will have earth so it'll be fair).

Knowledge: Basic Manga knowledge

Restrictions: None

According to Hiruzen's prime hype, he would destroy Zabuza; however, for what he showed with his feats, he can't beat Zabuza.

Here you can see a list of Hiruzen's jutsu:

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Hiruzen's Katon is countered by Zabuza's Suiton; however, Hiruzen's Doton counters Zabuza's Suiton. The only Doton Hiruzen showed was Earth Wall, and the size of it isn't big enough to block Giant Vortex Jutsu and Hiruzen more than likely can't make a bigger wall due to his low chakra reserves. For example, with Katon and Suiton, Suiton elementally overpowers Katon; however, if a Katon is strong enough, it can match the Suiton and or overpower it. I believe Zabuza's GVJ:

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will overpower his Doton Wall. Even if it can't, this really isn't that significant.


Basically since their elements counter each other if you assume GVJ doesn't break through his Doton Wall, then we have to look at the mist here. Hiruzen has shown very keen senses, enough to dodge the past Hokage's attacks while in the Bringer of Darkness tech. So, he will be able to counter Zabuza's mist and Silent Killing.

Basically, since their elements are basically useless and they can both counter each other in the mist, this turns into a battle of attrition, which means it all comes down to their chakra/stamina. Zabuza has way more chakra than Hiruzen, Zabuza having a 4/5 for it and Hiruzen only having a 3/5 for it according to the data books. This gives Zabuza a huge edge.

Hiruzen is more skilled in CQC equipped with Enma, Hiruzen having a 5/5 for Taijutsu and Zabuza having 4.5/5 according to the data books. However, Zabuza's speed and strength far outclasses Hiruzen's, being both 4/5 compared to Hiruzen's being both 3/5. Hiruzen is simply not going to be able to keep up and get overpowered by Zabuza's impressive strength.

Also, due to Zabuza's superior physical strength, Hiruzen's Death Reaper Seal will not be able to Seal Zabuza completely, and at tops will be his arms being sealed, possibly. I say possibly because his physical strength, being a 4/5 is greater than Orochimaru's, being a 3.5/5.


So as I said, their jutsu counter each others so this will just turn into a battle of attrition which Zabuza clearly wins.

Thoughts?

 

[EZQ]

Hiruzen was trapped in enternal darknes genjutsu or something like that and couldn't track the edo hokages, until he used his nose

Hiruzen can smell Zabuza in the mist aswell

And He's better in CQC than Zabuza exept for speed, wich is rivalled by his usefull sumon ENMA

Hiruzen low diff wins

 

[ShaneEyyy]

Hiruzen was trapped in enternal darknes genjutsu or something like that and couldn't track the edo hokages, until he used his nose

Hiruzen can smell Zabuza in the mist aswell

And He's better in CQC than Zabuza exept for speed, wich is rivalled by his usefull sumon ENMA

Hiruzen low diff wins

Everything you said to back up your poor argument, I have already countered word for word in the thread. And the fact that you think this will be low diff, makes me think you're one of those Hiruzen fanboys. Edit: Not trying to sound like an ass bro

 

[EZQ]

No in fact i believe Hiruzen is fodder... But zabuza is not a threat to a low kage level oponent without the mist (wich is countered)

It seems you forgot enma (his summon) is hard enough to block Hashirama's forest jutsu, wich is pretty big, Also enma is a good offensive tool too...

And Zabuza has to do a lot of hand seals (15) to use bortex jutsu, while hiruzen can use a pretty big katon with just 1 seal... Zabuza is not countering fire with water here

 

[ShaneEyyy]

No in fact i believe Hiruzen is fodder... But zabuza is not a threat to a low kage level oponent without the mist (wich is countered)

It seems you forgot enma (his summon) is hard enough to block Hashirama's forest jutsu, wich is pretty big, Also enma is a good offensive tool too...

And Zabuza has to do a lot of hand seals (15) to use bortex jutsu, while hiruzen can use a pretty big katon with just 1 seal... Zabuza is not countering fire with water here

I forgot Enma? Actually I didn't, I countered Enma in the thread description already, sorry. With Zabuza's far superior speed and strength, and with his already comparable skill in CQC, he will overpower Hiruzen.

You're wrong, it actually takes Hiruzen 7 seals to perform his Katon. Zabuza can stall time to use his Suiton with his Water Clones that he has shown to be able to make at least a dozen of with only 1 hand seal. Since his jutsu actually only takes 1 hand seal, he will have the clones up before Hiruzen's Katon and stall Hiruzen to give Zabuza time to use his Suiton.

 

[Exaar]

According to Hiruzen's prime hype, he would destroy Zabuza; however, for what he showed with his feats, he can't beat Zabuza.

Prime Hiruzen doesn't really need Feats, His hype alone puts anything zabuza can do to pitiful shame.

Feats or no Feats, In his prime state hiruzen would be above Zabuza it's a no-brainer really.

Basically, since their elements are basically useless and they can both counter each other in the mist, this turns into a battle of attrition, which means it all comes down to their chakra/stamina. Zabuza has way more chakra than Hiruzen, Zabuza having a 4/5 for it and Hiruzen only having a 3/5 for it according to the data books. This gives Zabuza a huge edge.

It won't come down to just stamina.
Hiruzen beats zabuza in Nin/Tai/Gen and Intelligence. Zabuza only has 1 Point more than Old hiruzen in Speed/Strength so it's not a large Gap.

Hiruzen is more skilled in CQC equipped with Enma, Hiruzen having a 5/5 for Taijutsu and Zabuza having 4.5/5 according to the data books. However, Zabuza's speed and strength far outclasses Hiruzen's, being both 4/5 compared to Hiruzen's being both 3/5. Hiruzen is simply not going to be able to keep up and get overpowered by Zabuza's impressive strength.

Enma easily makes up for hiruzen's lack of strength due to him being able to push a full sized kyuubi back in his Pole form and being able to sprout arms while in his pole form also.

Anyway, Part one kakashi had no problems dealing with his strength, Even though he only had 3.5 (only .5 more than hiruzen)

Blocking a Giant Shuriken swung by zabuza with his bare hand, Even though zabuza had more strength

Spoiler

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And blocking his Giant ass blade with a puny kunai

Spoiler

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Also, due to Zabuza's superior physical strength, Hiruzen's Death Reaper Seal will not be able to Seal Zabuza completely, and at tops will be his arms being sealed, possibly. I say possibly because his physical strength, being a 4/5 is greater than Orochimaru's, being a 3.5/5.

Strength doesn't really have that much to do with resisting the reaper seal.

Once it enters the body, You can barely move let alone overpower someone.

Spoiler

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Enma is also there to help/restrain if needed

Obviously Giving zabuza a water source gives him an advantage but i doubt it's as "Clear" of a victory as you claim.

 

[Guntah]

Hiruzen wins this one.

 

[ShaneEyyy]

Exaar

Prime Hiruzen doesn't really need Feats, His hype alone puts anything zabuza can do to pitiful shame.

Feats or no Feats, In his prime state hiruzen would be above Zabuza it's a no-brainer really.

Well no sh*t lol I even underlined that prime state hiruzen would destory Zabuza, so I don't really know why you stated this really.

It won't come down to just stamina.
Hiruzen beats zabuza in Nin/Tai/Gen and Intelligence. Zabuza only has 1 Point more than Old hiruzen in Speed/Strength so it's not a large Gap.

Hiruzen has shown just a doton wall and pretty strong fire tech, which Zabuza's suiton counters. Zabuza has Giant Vortex Jutsu, which excluding that reaper death seal, which sacrifices his life, is stronger than anything Hiruzen has shown.

Sorry but he hasn't shown any Genjutsu. As I already stated I'm just going off based what Hiruzen has actually shown, no hype.

Enma easily makes up for hiruzen's lack of strength due to him being able to push a full sized kyuubi back in his Pole form and being able to sprout arms while in his pole form also.

Good argument. Can you provide a scan of it pushing back a full sized Kyuubi? If that's true, then you're right, it does make up for his lack of strength.

Anyway, Part one kakashi had no problems dealing with his strength, Even though he only had 3.5 (only .5 more than hiruzen)

Blocking a Giant Shuriken swung by zabuza with his bare hand, Even though zabuza had more strength

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

And blocking his Giant ass blade with a puny kunai

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

Another good argument, you already countered the strength part so you're all good on that subject man.

Strength doesn't really have that much to do with resisting the reaper seal.

Once it enters the body, You can barely move let alone overpower someone.

Spoiler

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Enma is also there to help/restrain if needed

What?! Strength is a huge factor dealing with the Reaper Death Seal:

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Strength is a huge factor and with Hiruzen'd old body, he is not sealing Zabuza, who was physically stronger than 50 year old Orochimaru.

Obviously Giving zabuza a water source gives him an advantage but i doubt it's as "Clear" of a victory as you claim.

I didn't mean it's clear Zabuza wins, I meant it's clear Zabuza has more chakra.


You actually gave pretty good arguments

 

[elsepa]

Hiruzen wins , just because when he fought Orochimaru he implied there was no one on the village who could stop him , so imo that means Hiruzen > part 1 Kakashi , Gai ,etc etc.

 

[ShaneEyyy]

Hiruzen wins , just because when he fought Orochimaru he implied there was no one on the village who could stop him , so imo that means Hiruzen > part 1 Kakashi , Gai ,etc etc.

ABC logic doesn't work dude. Also part 1 Kakashi and Gai beats Hiruzen. Hiruzen cant counter gates and hiruzens katon and doton is countered by kakashi's raton and suiton. plus kakashi has sharingan and has doton himself

 

[Rainbow Dash]

Orochimaru could only resist RDS due to Hiruzen having a legendary sword that can even harm diamond in his lungs, it was not due to Orochimaru's physical strength.

 

[ShaneEyyy]

Orochimaru could only resist RDS due to Hiruzen having a legendary sword that can even harm diamond in his lungs, it was not due to Orochimaru's physical strength.

I have already provided a scan to Exaar of Hiruzen admitting he can't seal oro because of his old body and oro said if he was 10 years younger he would have sealed him so it wasn't because of the legendary sword, it was because he was old, period.

 

[Zexion~]

Unless RDS makes it a draw..

Zabuza wins, Whats his counter to the mist?, Zabuza counters his Katon's pretty easily

And going by feats he ****s him up in Tai

 

[Penguin]

Just clarifying, Hiruzen's chakra is immense, his physical stamina is what sucks. You get more chakra as you age, and in his prime he must have had lots of chakra.

 

[Liath]

Unless RDS makes it a draw..

Zabuza wins, Whats his counter to the mist?, Zabuza counters his Katon's pretty easily

And going by feats he ****s him up in Tai

hiruzen uses his keen sense of smell to find zabuza, as he did when under bringer of darkness.

hiruzen and enma combined are more than a match for zabuza in CQC, hiruzen wins mid diff

 

[ShaneEyyy]

hiruzen uses his keen sense of smell to find zabuza, as he did when under bringer of darkness.

hiruzen and enma combined are more than a match for zabuza in CQC, hiruzen wins mid diff

they arent more than a match for zabuza. zabuza was a swordsmen and has comparable taijutsu. orochimaru was able to keep up with some extent and he has a 3.5/5 for tai, zabuza has a 4.5/5.

zabuza is also much faster than hiruzen so itll make it hard for hiruzen to keep up with him.

Just clarifying, Hiruzen's chakra is immense, his physical stamina is what sucks. You get more chakra as you age, and in his prime he must have had lots of chakra.

hiruzen's chakra isn't immense, you have to be joking. the anbu were saying hiruzen's chakra doesn't compare to what it used to be, which is why it was even more dangerous for him to use shadow clones. stamina/chakra same thing dude. kakashi was said to have low chakra, he has a 3.5 for "stamina" kisame has huge chakra, he has 5/5 for "stamina" itachi has low chakra, his stamina is 2.5/5. naruto has huge chakra, his stamina is 5/5. it's the same thing, if you don't agree it's the same thing, then ill say if ones stamina is low, their chakra is low, if stamina is high, chakra is high. the data book proves this

 

[Tartarus]

Just clarifying, Hiruzen's chakra is immense, his physical stamina is what sucks. You get more chakra as you age, and in his prime he must have had lots of chakra.

wut? Stamina is the foundation of chakra, low stamina=low chakra levels

 

[ShaneEyyy]

wut? Stamina is the foundation of chakra, low stamina=low chakra levels

thank you. so do u agree that zabuza can win or.....

 

[Rainbow Dash]

I have already provided a scan to Exaar of Hiruzen admitting he can't seal oro because of his old body and oro said if he was 10 years younger he would have sealed him so it wasn't because of the legendary sword, it was because he was old, period.

You are disregarding the first sentence Oro said in the same bubble. He said that Hiruzen does not have any strength left. Pay attention to how much blood Hiruzen lost in that fight. He had both an entry wound and an exit wound through his flesh and lungs. Not only that, but he was also constantly coughing up blood. If you didn't know, blood loss deteriorates the physical body and makes them weaker. And it should be common sense that the sword played in factor. Hiruzen could seal Hashirama very quickly without the sword in his chest, and Hashirama presumably even has more physical strength than Zabuza and Orochimaru.

Hell if all else fails, it's very unlikely for Zabuza to resist THREE RDS at once by the use of clones.

 

[ShaneEyyy]

You are disregarding the first sentence Oro said in the same bubble. He said that Hiruzen does not have any strength left. Pay attention to how much blood Hiruzen lost in that fight. He had both an entry wound and an exit wound through his flesh and lungs. Not only that, but he was also constantly coughing up blood. If you didn't know, blood loss deteriorates the physical body and makes them weaker. And it should be common sense that the sword played in factor. Hiruzen could seal Hashirama very quickly without the sword in his chest, and Hashirama presumably even has more physical strength than Zabuza and Orochimaru.


Hell if all else fails, it's very unlikely for Zabuza to resist THREE RDS at once by the use of clones.

Instead of countering this, I'll just ask this, what happens if Hiruzen grabs a Water Clone and wastes the tech on it? if that's possible.