[YY] Yin Training

[Zatanna]

Hello, please train me in Yin Release, I would like to lean about Yin Release.

 

[Detective L]

Hello, that I can do.
Please give me an overview of Yin and what makes it different from Yang.

 

[Zatanna]

Hello, that I can do.
Please give me an overview of Yin and what makes it different from Yang.

Thank you Sensei.

So from my knowledge and memory, Yin is the other half of Yang that makes up the balance of YinYang, each one governing its own domain. While Yang covers vitality, body, sentience; a more physical aspect of balance, Yin itself covers the other half which is spirituality, imagination and creation.

All techniques have Yin and Yang energy in them however depending on the balance is what dictates their effects and generally some abilities will lean more heavily into one or the other. EG Akimichi would have higher ratios of Yang, while Nara has higher ratios of Yin.

Typically Yang is associated with BODY techs, such as Taijutsu, physical healing, enhancements and growing body parts as well as durability.
Yin on the other hand is associated with SPIRIT which is usually things like Genjutsu, spiritual techniques (eg Gobi clan type stuff), Sharingan techniques, and also manipulation of techniques, eg changing properties of elements, intangibility etc. Hypothetically I can see Yin if given the appropriate customs could do something like spiritual energy healing although I think thats just banned outright?

Lastly, Yin is more typically associated with dark energy, while Yang is more typically white/light energy, as seen in examples of Onyx chidori, a yin tech, and White Tiger, a yang tech.

 

[Detective L]

Thank you Sensei.

So from my knowledge and memory, Yin is the other half of Yang that makes up the balance of YinYang, each one governing its own domain. While Yang covers vitality, body, sentience; a more physical aspect of balance, Yin itself covers the other half which is spirituality, imagination and creation.

All techniques have Yin and Yang energy in them however depending on the balance is what dictates their effects and generally some abilities will lean more heavily into one or the other. EG Akimichi would have higher ratios of Yang, while Nara has higher ratios of Yin.

Typically Yang is associated with BODY techs, such as Taijutsu, physical healing, enhancements and growing body parts as well as durability.
Yin on the other hand is associated with SPIRIT which is usually things like Genjutsu, spiritual techniques (eg Gobi clan type stuff), Sharingan techniques, and also manipulation of techniques, eg changing properties of elements, intangibility etc. Hypothetically I can see Yin if given the appropriate customs could do something like spiritual energy healing although I think thats just banned outright?

Lastly, Yin is more typically associated with dark energy, while Yang is more typically white/light energy, as seen in examples of Onyx chidori, a yin tech, and White Tiger, a yang tech.

Good, you've touched on some good parts.

Yin is generally associated with the Moon, and Yang with the Sun. There's some Daoist readings on Yin and Yang that I recall from my training and talks with Drackos and Reborn, but not too relevant in the context of the RP. Yin is feminine, fluid and generally focuses on the creation of something from nothing - the idea of creation from nothingness (hence the association with Genjutsu, where illusions are generally borne of the mind and manipulated outside of the physical). So generally, physical (Yang) vs spiritual (Yin). Making Lightning tangible or changing the properties of water into mist, for example.

You touched on tipping the scales, stronger Yin focused techniques take on these properties (retaining only very little Yang, and vice versa, hence why YY is ideal, as it gives you full control of that ratio). As for healing, that's more associated with Yang from a physical perspective - from a Yin perspective, it could potentially be explored but I wouldn't go down that path (it'd have a lot of restrictions and probably be limited to YY masters).

Do you have any questions? I consider myself to be a good Gen enthusiast, so I do lean more towards Yin and my CE was the first Yin CE on NB (humble brag). So I could answer pretty much most things on Yin lol.

 

[Zatanna]

Good, you've touched on some good parts.

Yin is generally associated with the Moon, and Yang with the Sun. There's some Daoist readings on Yin and Yang that I recall from my training and talks with Drackos and Reborn, but not too relevant in the context of the RP. Yin is feminine, fluid and generally focuses on the creation of something from nothing - the idea of creation from nothingness (hence the association with Genjutsu, where illusions are generally borne of the mind and manipulated outside of the physical). So generally, physical (Yang) vs spiritual (Yin). Making Lightning tangible or changing the properties of water into mist, for example.

You touched on tipping the scales, stronger Yin focused techniques take on these properties (retaining only very little Yang, and vice versa, hence why YY is ideal, as it gives you full control of that ratio). As for healing, that's more associated with Yang from a physical perspective - from a Yin perspective, it could potentially be explored but I wouldn't go down that path (it'd have a lot of restrictions and probably be limited to YY masters).

Do you have any questions? I consider myself to be a good Gen enthusiast, so I do lean more towards Yin and my CE was the first Yin CE on NB (humble brag). So I could answer pretty much most things on Yin lol.

As you probably know, Im not very strong in genjutsu, I always tend to lean towards more physical fighting, even in my elemental usage id say it was usually more water and earth compared to say fire and lighting.
I have some questions that are related to gen, although Im not sure specifically if theyre Yin related. (eg like, is there literally any difference between a C or B rank gen, compared to an S rank gen? most other techs scale based on how much damage they do, how complicated etc, but considering a Genjutsu takes place in the mind of an opponent, the only difference would be chakra value? at the base of the question is, does a higher rank genjutsu CJ need to have a more complex description/do more than a lower one?)
Im trying to think of any base questions for now, in relations to Yin and the element of its properties right now. They might get answered or I might think of some during the training, but for now, I dont have any questions. As far as my own personal research and stuff goes, Im pretty sure I read up on most of it for training.

No questions, thank you!

 

[Detective L]

As you probably know, Im not very strong in genjutsu, I always tend to lean towards more physical fighting, even in my elemental usage id say it was usually more water and earth compared to say fire and lighting.
I have some questions that are related to gen, although Im not sure specifically if theyre Yin related. (eg like, is there literally any difference between a C or B rank gen, compared to an S rank gen? most other techs scale based on how much damage they do, how complicated etc, but considering a Genjutsu takes place in the mind of an opponent, the only difference would be chakra value? at the base of the question is, does a higher rank genjutsu CJ need to have a more complex description/do more than a lower one?)
Im trying to think of any base questions for now, in relations to Yin and the element of its properties right now. They might get answered or I might think of some during the training, but for now, I dont have any questions. As far as my own personal research and stuff goes, Im pretty sure I read up on most of it for training.

No questions, thank you!

Hopefully this doesn't turn into a wallie ;_;

Yes, so with Genjutsu, the more chakra is placed into a technique - the more difficult it is to break out of. It doesn't necessarily have to be more complex the higher ranked it goes - since a longer Gen technique (especially with customs) tend to limit you more in terms of RP and how you set it on the opponent. So Genjutsu creates an a disturbance in the chakra flow, right? The higher the chakra, the more difficult it is to get that flow back into your original "state". Hence why Genjutsu like Tsukiyomi is so deadly, because its Forbidden rank, and requires a very strong chakra input to force out the foreign influence/(stop it) or then the equivalent pain measure (which is detrimental to you, as it will leave you hindered). Then of course, Kai, which is used to create a burst of chakra by spiking it. It really still follows the method described in the manga.

You must be registered to see images

​

Anyway, back to Yin. We can start with the first technique.

(Inton: Ten ni Henkō) – Yin Release: Change into Heaven

Spoiler

Type: Supplementary
Rank: S
Range: N/A
Chakra: N/A (+30 chakra cost to applied technique)
Description: The user manipulates a technique of the basic 5 elements with Yin natured energy, allowing the user to change its physical properties. Fire can become solid, lightning can become tangible, water can become invisible. Possibilities are limited to changes in physical properties; more specifically, this means that one cannot transform a flame into a spiritual flame, or make a rock intangible. The user must be able to clearly define what the new technique is within realistic limitations. If, for example, the user makes Swamp of the Underworld into something solid then it might neutralize the entire point of the technique. The resulting technique must be described logically; if this condition is not met then the technique might outright fail. The end result is a technique neutral to all basic elemental natures. This technique is applied within the same timeframe as the technique it is applied to. The infused chakra increases the technique by an additional ten, but costs thirty in total.
Note: Yin Release Specialists and Yin-Yang users can apply this technique to advanced fields, CE, and advanced elements.
Note: Using Change into Heaven to transform the inherent nature of an element does not modify its base speed.
Note: Usable 3 times per battle and 6 times per arc.

Change into Heaven - an amazing technique that allows you to infuse Yin into the basic 5 to change its physical properties. You can make fire solid, water can become a mist, stretchy, whatever - following inherent logic however. As described, making SoTW into a solid defeats its inherent purpose rendering it useless. If you specialize in Yin, it can be used in advanced fields, CE and advanced elements. It's a pretty nifty technique to add some flair to existing customs - and allows you to make some interesting combos. You can't however, make a technique completely undetectable and the scale of the technique is directly proportional to the change. So if you are manipulating a massive water dragon, turning into an acidic water will change that same size into that property, limited to physical changes too, by the way. So no spiritual water dragon please lol.

 

[Zatanna]

Hopefully this doesn't turn into a wallie ;_;

Yes, so with Genjutsu, the more chakra is placed into a technique - the more difficult it is to break out of. It doesn't necessarily have to be more complex the higher ranked it goes - since a longer Gen technique (especially with customs) tend to limit you more in terms of RP and how you set it on the opponent. So Genjutsu creates an a disturbance in the chakra flow, right? The higher the chakra, the more difficult it is to get that flow back into your original "state". Hence why Genjutsu like Tsukiyomi is so deadly, because its Forbidden rank, and requires a very strong chakra input to force out the foreign influence/(stop it) or then the equivalent pain measure (which is detrimental to you, as it will leave you hindered). Then of course, Kai, which is used to create a burst of chakra by spiking it. It really still follows the method described in the manga.

You must be registered to see images

​

Anyway, back to Yin. We can start with the first technique.

(Inton: Ten ni Henkō) – Yin Release: Change into Heaven

Spoiler

Type: Supplementary
Rank: S
Range: N/A
Chakra: N/A (+30 chakra cost to applied technique)
Description: The user manipulates a technique of the basic 5 elements with Yin natured energy, allowing the user to change its physical properties. Fire can become solid, lightning can become tangible, water can become invisible. Possibilities are limited to changes in physical properties; more specifically, this means that one cannot transform a flame into a spiritual flame, or make a rock intangible. The user must be able to clearly define what the new technique is within realistic limitations. If, for example, the user makes Swamp of the Underworld into something solid then it might neutralize the entire point of the technique. The resulting technique must be described logically; if this condition is not met then the technique might outright fail. The end result is a technique neutral to all basic elemental natures. This technique is applied within the same timeframe as the technique it is applied to. The infused chakra increases the technique by an additional ten, but costs thirty in total.
Note: Yin Release Specialists and Yin-Yang users can apply this technique to advanced fields, CE, and advanced elements.
Note: Using Change into Heaven to transform the inherent nature of an element does not modify its base speed.
Note: Usable 3 times per battle and 6 times per arc.

Change into Heaven - an amazing technique that allows you to infuse Yin into the basic 5 to change its physical properties. You can make fire solid, water can become a mist, stretchy, whatever - following inherent logic however. As described, making SoTW into a solid defeats its inherent purpose rendering it useless. If you specialize in Yin, it can be used in advanced fields, CE and advanced elements. It's a pretty nifty technique to add some flair to existing customs - and allows you to make some interesting combos. You can't however, make a technique completely undetectable and the scale of the technique is directly proportional to the change. So if you are manipulating a massive water dragon, turning into an acidic water will change that same size into that property, limited to physical changes too, by the way. So no spiritual water dragon please lol.

Can you remind me what advanced fields are? i assume things like Yin/Yang, and it mentions CE, but do things like HA/KG/AN count as advanced fields? My first thought is 'yes' because we usually say 'basic 5' but can this theoretically be applied to any field at all?
In terms of changing physical properties, how limited are we in an RP scope? The technique says physical properties, but does that mean things like changing the make up to make water poisonous? to make fire freezing? Can you make wind magnetic? Im guessing probably case by case basis, i remember there was a rule/update about making stuff intangible, just simply a flat out no more phasing, but invisible water still fine?
does this change the strength/weakness of the technique at all, or does this turn it into a yin infused technique to make it yin S/W?

 

[Detective L]

Can you remind me what advanced fields are? i assume things like Yin/Yang, and it mentions CE, but do things like HA/KG/AN count as advanced fields? My first thought is 'yes' because we usually say 'basic 5' but can this theoretically be applied to any field at all?
In terms of changing physical properties, how limited are we in an RP scope? The technique says physical properties, but does that mean things like changing the make up to make water poisonous? to make fire freezing? Can you make wind magnetic? Im guessing probably case by case basis, i remember there was a rule/update about making stuff intangible, just simply a flat out no more phasing, but invisible water still fine?
does this change the strength/weakness of the technique at all, or does this turn it into a yin infused technique to make it yin S/W?

HA/AN are considered advanced fields - I'll have to get back to you on KG, as I know something like Scarlet Rot falls in that category. It is case by case, but I always stick with the "does this make logical sense" when it comes to changing the physical properties, freezing fire - you could probably make your Fire cold, yes. Wind magnetic, I'd be more opposed to that one. Same with poisonous water. Poison is broad, and its own AN. Its very broad, but it also has to make sense in the context of what its based on.

Yeah, an intangible Water dragon sounds problematic - it adopts the S/W of Yin, so neutrality to basic elements. Generally speaking, it's good to add to an existing technique, make it more difficult to counter and catch your opponent in a bit of a tight spot, especially with it adopting Yin's S/W.

 

[Zatanna]

HA/AN are considered advanced fields - I'll have to get back to you on KG, as I know something like Scarlet Rot falls in that category. It is case by case, but I always stick with the "does this make logical sense" when it comes to changing the physical properties, freezing fire - you could probably make your Fire cold, yes. Wind magnetic, I'd be more opposed to that one. Same with poisonous water. Poison is broad, and its own AN. Its very broad, but it also has to make sense in the context of what its based on.

Yeah, an intangible Water dragon sounds problematic - it adopts the S/W of Yin, so neutrality to basic elements. Generally speaking, it's good to add to an existing technique, make it more difficult to counter and catch your opponent in a bit of a tight spot, especially with it adopting Yin's S/W.

No worries, also with the invisibility, it seems like I guess maybe with water and lightning you could do it, maybe fire like a heatwave potentially? Just the wording of the technique itself say literally 'water can become invisible' which seems like its one of the stronger choices.

 

[Detective L]

No worries, also with the invisibility, it seems like I guess maybe with water and lightning you could do it, maybe fire like a heatwave potentially? Just the wording of the technique itself say literally 'water can become invisible' which seems like its one of the stronger choices.

Sure, though it should have a detectable method. Like I should be able to see the heatwaves distort my view like a mirage, I should be able to feel the heat still, I should hear the sound of rushing flames, etc. You get the idea (Fire in general is quite loud in the Narutoverse, always roaring out, hence back to my comment on the context in which its used and what its based on).

 

[Zatanna]

Sure, though it should have a detectable method. Like I should be able to see the heatwaves distort my view like a mirage, I should be able to feel the heat still, I should hear the sound of rushing flames, etc. You get the idea (Fire in general is quite loud in the Narutoverse, always roaring out, hence back to my comment on the context in which its used and what its based on).

Noted, always keep it at least trackable/use que's within the description.

 

[Detective L]

Noted, always keep it at least trackable/use que's within the description.

For KG, don't use Change to Heaven for now until we've clarified it (confirmed with LoK).
Correct, now let's move on to the next technique.

(Inton: Gogyou Gen) – Yin Release: Five Elements Illusion

Spoiler

Type: Supplementary
Rank: S
Range: N/A
Chakra: N/A (+30 chakra cost to applied technique)
Description: This technique allows the user to combine their elemental chakra with Yin Release in order to create stronger, more potent Genjutsu. When the user casts a Genjutsu, rather than using their raw chakra they will use one of the basic elemental natures, thus increasing the potency of the jutsu. This technique increases the technique it is applied to by one rank in strength; due to the massive infusion of chakra a Genjutsu empowered by the Five Elements Illusion can penetrate through any passive defense or subversive method against Genjutsu. By using nature chakra rather than raw chakra, the properties of the Genjutsu can change in accordance to that nature and become stronger. For example, using Crushing Snake Constriction with Fire Release chakra would make the snakes appear, feel, and sound as though they were on fire. The user is free to alter the effects of a Genjutsu within reason as long as the primary effects remain the same. Like other Yin-Yang infusions, this technique only increases the chakra within the technique by an additional rank in strength, or 10, whichever is higher.
Note: Can only be used 6 times per battle.
Note: Cannot be used on techniques above S-Rank.
Note: Yin Release Specialists and Yin-Yang users can use advanced elements and CE.

Five Elements Illusion is a technique that allows you to combine elemental chakra with Yin - to create more varied Genjutsu. The example here being Crushing Snake Constriction, combined with Fire, and you create flaming snakes instead of regular ones (that burn and singe the victim instead of just constricting them). Of course, within the context of the Genjutsu itself. This increases the chakra input of the Genjutsu by one rank/10 chakra. I'm sure you have some questions on this, we can run through some examples if you want some clarity. Again, if you specialize in Yin, you can use advanced elements and CE with the Genjutsu.

 

[Zatanna]

For KG, don't use Change to Heaven for now until we've clarified it (confirmed with LoK).
Correct, now let's move on to the next technique.

(Inton: Gogyou Gen) – Yin Release: Five Elements Illusion

Spoiler

Type: Supplementary
Rank: S
Range: N/A
Chakra: N/A (+30 chakra cost to applied technique)
Description: This technique allows the user to combine their elemental chakra with Yin Release in order to create stronger, more potent Genjutsu. When the user casts a Genjutsu, rather than using their raw chakra they will use one of the basic elemental natures, thus increasing the potency of the jutsu. This technique increases the technique it is applied to by one rank in strength; due to the massive infusion of chakra a Genjutsu empowered by the Five Elements Illusion can penetrate through any passive defense or subversive method against Genjutsu. By using nature chakra rather than raw chakra, the properties of the Genjutsu can change in accordance to that nature and become stronger. For example, using Crushing Snake Constriction with Fire Release chakra would make the snakes appear, feel, and sound as though they were on fire. The user is free to alter the effects of a Genjutsu within reason as long as the primary effects remain the same. Like other Yin-Yang infusions, this technique only increases the chakra within the technique by an additional rank in strength, or 10, whichever is higher.
Note: Can only be used 6 times per battle.
Note: Cannot be used on techniques above S-Rank.
Note: Yin Release Specialists and Yin-Yang users can use advanced elements and CE.

Five Elements Illusion is a technique that allows you to combine elemental chakra with Yin - to create more varied Genjutsu. The example here being Crushing Snake Constriction, combined with Fire, and you create flaming snakes instead of regular ones (that burn and singe the victim instead of just constricting them). Of course, within the context of the Genjutsu itself. This increases the chakra input of the Genjutsu by one rank/10 chakra. I'm sure you have some questions on this, we can run through some examples if you want some clarity. Again, if you specialize in Yin, you can use advanced elements and CE with the Genjutsu.

Shame, I could really have some fun turning Scarlet Rot into fluid or light and stuff.

5 elements Illusion. we were talking about this with skorm, how nasty of a combo can be. I suppose I can ask an official question then, for an official sensei to answer.
There was a bit of questioning about what would be the final outcome for requirements to break. Below is the full Perfect Sage Mode technique:

( Kanpekinanin Hebi Sennin Modo ) - Perfect Snake Sage Mode
Type: Mode
Rank: S
Range: N/A
Chakra cost: N/A ( -10 turn to sustain )
Damage Points: Active +30 damage to all ninjutsu and taijutsu up to S rank
Description: An empowered state of body achieved by blending natural energy with one’s physical and spiritual energy. The mode heightens performance on all levels by adding a new dimension of power to the user’s chakra. The state is a direct result of Senjutsu chakra circulating through the body. Upon entering, all subsequent technique employ Senjutsu chakra until the minimum cost cannot be paid to sustain the mode. The user is resistant to damage, reducing 30 damage from all techniques and can heal 10 damage for the duration of this technique. The user is able to passively sense chakra and his/her perception and reflexes are enhanced. Their ninjutsu and strength increases, empowering taijutsu and other close range physical combat techniques by +30. Additionally, the user is able to break out of Genjutsu, using Genjutsu release technique one rank lower than what he would normally be required to. And similarly, the requirement to break out of user’s Genjutsu using Release or Chakra surge is one rank higher than required. Lastly, the user gains access to snake anatomy, Sage Art: Inorganic Reincarnation and other physical feats granted by Sage mode.
Note: Usable once per battle instantly by Perfect Sages only, starting with 400 chakra. Additional usages require meditation to enter, gathering 75 chakra per turn meditated for a max reserve of 600.

Specifically the bolded part here, while normally a genjutsu/any technique can only have an additional 10 chakra in it, this bolded requirement would make it cost an extra 10 on top as well. Does this count towards that 10 chakra boost if someone was to layer 5 elements illusion on top?
So to set the scene as an example:
I go into perfect toad sage mode.
I cast an S rank genjutsu, with the 5 elements illusion on to it.
This has caused the technique to go from 40 chakra to 50 chakra

Now, as per genjutsu rules in the thread, (https://animebase.me/threads/method-training-genjutsu.781141/), Kai Release can only go up to S rank at 40 chakra. Which means that can not be used on this technique right?
ALSO additionally to the rules, does it say that "In the case of Elemental Surges, the surge must be one rank higher in effective chakra than the genjutsu applied."
Normally a 50 chakra gen would require a 60 chakra elemental surge.
If we then also say that this is a yin energy gen, which means its strong to elemental ninjutsu as per the Strengths and Weaknesses table, (Strengths: Elemental Ninjutsu | Ninjutsu), would that then mean instead of 60 its actually a 70 chakra elemental/ninjutsu surge?
Or even disregarding the the perfect sage mode, and taking it back to just an S rank genjutsu with Yin illusion, that bumps it to 50 chakra, meaning a minimum of 60 chakra surge to break, with the strengths/weaknesses is that a 70 chakra elemental surge?

I know that might have been a lot of rambling, but again, I want to know everything.

 

[Detective L]

Shame, I could really have some fun turning Scarlet Rot into fluid or light and stuff.

5 elements Illusion. we were talking about this with skorm, how nasty of a combo can be. I suppose I can ask an official question then, for an official sensei to answer.
There was a bit of questioning about what would be the final outcome for requirements to break. Below is the full Perfect Sage Mode technique:

( Kanpekinanin Hebi Sennin Modo ) - Perfect Snake Sage Mode
Type: Mode
Rank: S
Range: N/A
Chakra cost: N/A ( -10 turn to sustain )
Damage Points: Active +30 damage to all ninjutsu and taijutsu up to S rank
Description: An empowered state of body achieved by blending natural energy with one’s physical and spiritual energy. The mode heightens performance on all levels by adding a new dimension of power to the user’s chakra. The state is a direct result of Senjutsu chakra circulating through the body. Upon entering, all subsequent technique employ Senjutsu chakra until the minimum cost cannot be paid to sustain the mode. The user is resistant to damage, reducing 30 damage from all techniques and can heal 10 damage for the duration of this technique. The user is able to passively sense chakra and his/her perception and reflexes are enhanced. Their ninjutsu and strength increases, empowering taijutsu and other close range physical combat techniques by +30. Additionally, the user is able to break out of Genjutsu, using Genjutsu release technique one rank lower than what he would normally be required to. And similarly, the requirement to break out of user’s Genjutsu using Release or Chakra surge is one rank higher than required. Lastly, the user gains access to snake anatomy, Sage Art: Inorganic Reincarnation and other physical feats granted by Sage mode.
Note: Usable once per battle instantly by Perfect Sages only, starting with 400 chakra. Additional usages require meditation to enter, gathering 75 chakra per turn meditated for a max reserve of 600.

Specifically the bolded part here, while normally a genjutsu/any technique can only have an additional 10 chakra in it, this bolded requirement would make it cost an extra 10 on top as well. Does this count towards that 10 chakra boost if someone was to layer 5 elements illusion on top?
So to set the scene as an example:
I go into perfect toad sage mode.
I cast an S rank genjutsu, with the 5 elements illusion on to it.
This has caused the technique to go from 40 chakra to 50 chakra

Now, as per genjutsu rules in the thread, (https://animebase.me/threads/method-training-genjutsu.781141/), Kai Release can only go up to S rank at 40 chakra. Which means that can not be used on this technique right?
ALSO additionally to the rules, does it say that "In the case of Elemental Surges, the surge must be one rank higher in effective chakra than the genjutsu applied."
Normally a 50 chakra gen would require a 60 chakra elemental surge.
If we then also say that this is a yin energy gen, which means its strong to elemental ninjutsu as per the Strengths and Weaknesses table, (Strengths: Elemental Ninjutsu | Ninjutsu), would that then mean instead of 60 its actually a 70 chakra elemental/ninjutsu surge?
Or even disregarding the the perfect sage mode, and taking it back to just an S rank genjutsu with Yin illusion, that bumps it to 50 chakra, meaning a minimum of 60 chakra surge to break, with the strengths/weaknesses is that a 70 chakra elemental surge?

I know that might have been a lot of rambling, but again, I want to know everything.

GOOOD - QUESTIONS.

Yea, Kai can go up to 40 chakra - so you'd be left with chakra surge and pain to break out. Unless you find a way to boost Kai to boost the chakra it uses.
As for the elemental surge, remember, you're adding an element to Gen so it gains those properties. Fire would be weak to Water - so if enhanced by Fire, A rank Fire Gen would be broken by S rank Water surge. We of course have several ways of boosting chakra now, and as a Yang user, you could use something like Power of the Sun to break these types of Genjutsu - if the chakra limit is too high for a general surge. Pain is always an option too lol. So it doesn't get the general Yin S/W otherwise you're in the scenario you placed above where you have to have a massive chakra surge to break the Yin enhanced Genjutsu (though its still the case if you counter using Raw chakra). We might revise Kai, though. So it doesn't double, necessarily, if that makes sense.

Some notes on Elemental Genjutsu:

Genjutsu cast through the Five Elements Illusion technique become Elemental Genjutsu. In previous iterations of Genjutsu, Elemental Illusions typically conveyed a higher level of difficulty in breaking. In today's illusions this is no longer the case. Chakra surges in Genjutsu, unless they are raw surges (meaning a raw chakra surge outside of Elemental Surges or Genjutsu Kai), are broken in the normal surge rules. These illusions also follow pain rules. The only truly unique aspect with Elemental Genjutsu is that when interacting with elemental surges, strengths and weaknesses now apply. For instance, an A-Rank Water Illusion cannot be broken by an S-Rank Fire Release surge. It can only be broken by a Fire surge equal to Forbidden rank.

 

[Zatanna]

GOOOD - QUESTIONS.

Yea, Kai can go up to 40 chakra - so you'd be left with chakra surge and pain to break out. Unless you find a way to boost Kai to boost the chakra it uses.
As for the elemental surge, remember, you're adding an element to Gen so it gains those properties. Fire would be weak to Water - so if enhanced by Fire, A rank Fire Gen would be broken by S rank Water surge. We of course have several ways of boosting chakra now, and as a Yang user, you could use something like Power of the Sun to break these types of Genjutsu - if the chakra limit is too high for a general surge. Pain is always an option too lol. So it doesn't get the general Yin S/W otherwise you're in the scenario you placed above where you have to have a massive chakra surge to break the Yin enhanced Genjutsu (though its still the case if you counter using Raw chakra). We might revise Kai, though. So it doesn't double, necessarily, if that makes sense.

Some notes on Elemental Genjutsu:

Genjutsu cast through the Five Elements Illusion technique become Elemental Genjutsu. In previous iterations of Genjutsu, Elemental Illusions typically conveyed a higher level of difficulty in breaking. In today's illusions this is no longer the case. Chakra surges in Genjutsu, unless they are raw surges (meaning a raw chakra surge outside of Elemental Surges or Genjutsu Kai), are broken in the normal surge rules. These illusions also follow pain rules. The only truly unique aspect with Elemental Genjutsu is that when interacting with elemental surges, strengths and weaknesses now apply. For instance, an A-Rank Water Illusion cannot be broken by an S-Rank Fire Release surge. It can only be broken by a Fire surge equal to Forbidden rank.

right ok so even if its yin infused, its not treated with yin strengths and weaknesses, only what ever element it was changed/infused with. And from what I remember, the rules specifically state that 50 damage to self is enough to break out of any gen, regardless of chakra amount. https://animebase.me/threads/grpt-jester-vs-mirai.782207/post-22114379

Noted for the elemental surges. However, jsut going back to that sage mode yin gen question, would that could as a double chakra boost? or is it unique the situation?

eg even just going back to lower ranks, a B rank gen, boosted to A rank by yin, would require an S rank elemental surge? also, how would that interact with an S rank gen, boosted by 10 chakra to 50, with that specific wording?
"And similarly, the requirement to break out of user’s Genjutsu using Release or Chakra surge is one rank higher than required."

 

[Detective L]

right ok so even if its yin infused, its not treated with yin strengths and weaknesses, only what ever element it was changed/infused with. And from what I remember, the rules specifically state that 50 damage to self is enough to break out of any gen, regardless of chakra amount. https://animebase.me/threads/grpt-jester-vs-mirai.782207/post-22114379

Noted for the elemental surges. However, jsut going back to that sage mode yin gen question, would that could as a double chakra boost? or is it unique the situation?

eg even just going back to lower ranks, a B rank gen, boosted to A rank by yin, would require an S rank elemental surge? also, how would that interact with an S rank gen, boosted by 10 chakra to 50, with that specific wording?
"And similarly, the requirement to break out of user’s Genjutsu using Release or Chakra surge is one rank higher than required."

With regards to pain inflicted on yourself, according to LoK there.
I'll have to get back to you on the SM boost, or if only one boost would be accounted for in that scenario. I myself have SM, but haven't used Yin Gen with it activated to be able to say it would require the double boosted to break out of.

 

[Zatanna]

With regards to pain inflicted on yourself, according to LoK there.
I'll have to get back to you on the SM boost, or if only one boost would be accounted for in that scenario. I myself have SM, but haven't used Yin Gen with it activated to be able to say it would require the double boosted to break out of.

no worries, i get it, sometimes situations are unique.
onwards to the next tech!

 

[Detective L]

Before we move on, what do you think this line means? This technique increases the technique it is applied to by one rank in strength; due to the massive infusion of chakra a Genjutsu empowered by the Five Elements Illusion can penetrate through any passive defense or subversive method against Genjutsu.

Also, a throwback to when Drackos taught me Yin, kindly describe the following to me:

Explain how 5 Elements Illusion would be used with this, applying Water and Fire Releases. Then answer these questions.

1. Explain how you'd use this combination with Fire and Water Release
2. Explain the overall jutsu rank.

We've discussed a bit about surges and pain, I think you have an idea of how those work. If you have any questions, let's chat it out.

 

[Zatanna]

Before we move on, what do you think this line means? This technique increases the technique it is applied to by one rank in strength; due to the massive infusion of chakra a Genjutsu empowered by the Five Elements Illusion can penetrate through any passive defense or subversive method against Genjutsu.

Also, a throwback to when Drackos taught me Yin, kindly describe the following to me:

Explain how 5 Elements Illusion would be used with this, applying Water and Fire Releases. Then answer these questions.

1. Explain how you'd use this combination with Fire and Water Release
2. Explain the overall jutsu rank.

We've discussed a bit about surges and pain, I think you have an idea of how those work. If you have any questions, let's chat it out.

My understanding is that anything considered a defense or some kind of barrier to protect against genjutsu is either bypassed or ignored. Examples include surgebinder immunity to foreign chakra, Stone of Gelel, even just fuin placed designed to break out of genjutsu etc. This doesnt mean the gen cant be broken, but simply, anything that 'prevents' genjutsu from taking place, or shaving damage etc would be ignored.

as for the questions,

well as an example in the techniques, crushing snakes can be turned to be fire snakes instead, or could be turned turned to water snakes instead. Any genjutsu technique below S rank goes up one rank from this infusion technique, eg B to A, A to S, C to B etc. but S rank techniques only gain 10 chakra, they do not go to F rank. (on a personal note, i get we use the ranking system as a legacy thing, but I think its a bit outdated at least from a gameplay balance point of view, but thats just my own opinion.)

Im not really sure what youre asking for with question 1, unless you literally mean like, turning "( Genjutsu: Jigoku Gouka ) - Illusion Technique: Hell Fire" into a giant ball of water instead?
It would turn the C rank gen into B rank, and given its water element, to break out of it with an elemental surge would require a B rank earthen surge or a S rank Fire surge, as per following elemental surge rules for strength and weaknesses.
Elemental surges are required to be one rank higher than the chakra inside, B rank tech, is 20 chakra, means ordinarily 30 chakra required, but with elemental advantage it goes back to 20, but the opposite for fire, pushing it to 40 instead of 30.

 

[Detective L]

My understanding is that anything considered a defense or some kind of barrier to protect against genjutsu is either bypassed or ignored. Examples include surgebinder immunity to foreign chakra, Stone of Gelel, even just fuin placed designed to break out of genjutsu etc. This doesnt mean the gen cant be broken, but simply, anything that 'prevents' genjutsu from taking place, or shaving damage etc would be ignored.

as for the questions,

well as an example in the techniques, crushing snakes can be turned to be fire snakes instead, or could be turned turned to water snakes instead. Any genjutsu technique below S rank goes up one rank from this infusion technique, eg B to A, A to S, C to B etc. but S rank techniques only gain 10 chakra, they do not go to F rank. (on a personal note, i get we use the ranking system as a legacy thing, but I think its a bit outdated at least from a gameplay balance point of view, but thats just my own opinion.)

Im not really sure what youre asking for with question 1, unless you literally mean like, turning "( Genjutsu: Jigoku Gouka ) - Illusion Technique: Hell Fire" into a giant ball of water instead?
It would turn the C rank gen into B rank, and given its water element, to break out of it with an elemental surge would require a B rank earthen surge or a S rank Fire surge, as per following elemental surge rules for strength and weaknesses.
Elemental surges are required to be one rank higher than the chakra inside, B rank tech, is 20 chakra, means ordinarily 30 chakra required, but with elemental advantage it goes back to 20, but the opposite for fire, pushing it to 40 instead of 30.

Good - and yes, it would bypass those methods and they'd have to deal with Genjutsu instead of just shrugging it off. Anyway, seems you have a good understanding of it. Please don't hesitate to ask me any questions on it.

(Inton: Gaki no Jutsu) - Yin Release: Hungry Ghost Technique

Spoiler

Type: Supplementary
Rank: S
Range: N/A
Chakra Cost: N/A (+30)
Damage: N/A
Description: Hungry Ghost is a spiritual parasite created through the user’s Yin Release chakra. When using an elemental jutsu, the user will form the ram hand seal to seal the hungry ghost within their technique. Sealing the hungry ghost inside one’s technique happens within the same timeframe as their elemental technique. When the user’s technique clashes with another technique, the parasitic Yin Chakra will eat away at the chakra within the technique, weakening it by one rank. Once the hungry ghost consumes foreign chakra it is released and immediately attaches itself to the source of the foreign chakra (the opponent). From there, the parasite continues to eat away at the enemy’s chakra every time they use techniques (all techniques reduce in rank and power by 1 degree). Once the Hungry Ghost is released, its tether is immediate and cannot be blocked or circumvented by ordinary means. The effects of Hungry Ghost last for 4 turns.
Note: Can only be used 5 times per battle and cannot be used on the same target more than twice.
Note: Surges or Barriers that utilize Yin, Yang, Yin-Yang or Natural Energy can break or prevent the tethering of the Hungry Ghost.
Note: Yin Release Specialists and Yin-Yang users can use advanced elements and CE.
Note: Hungry Ghost can only be used on S-rank techniques and below.

Now I'm sure you've faced this tech before. A spiritual parasite that's used in the same timeframe as a technique - allows you to latch onto the opponent's opposing technique, reducing it by one rank. Additionally, it latches onto the opponent, reducing everything by 1 rank, for the next four turns. Can only be used twice on the same person, and Yin specialists can apply this to their CE and Advanced Elements. Questions?