Wow we forgot about itachi

[JesseBlack]

itachi isnt relevant anymore so why would he be the reincarnated indra

Because you have to admit that he fits shoe for Indra better than sasuke

 

[The Demon Hawk]

Now your wonder what the hell do I mean. Guys I want you to think who was more gifted Itachi or Sasuke. What comes to mind is itachi then wouldn't he be the reincarnation of Indra.In terms of ideology Sasuke fits the shoe but when it comes to Indra being gifted and never really having to work hard Itachi fit the shoe better than Sasuke. Heck if anything Naruto got powers up easier I mean if was about to lose a nine tails chakra had his back on top of the fact that he mastered senjutsu faster than any other person in the world could have without using a frog. For Itachi we haven't even seen him train once he's just always been badass, but Sasuke had to get the curse mark,train with the rapist hidden in the leaves and technically kill him plus awaken the mangekyo after killing Itachi (which was basically Itachi losing to him on purpose) and he still wasn't strong enough to beat kakashi and Naruto ( not evening using sage made or nine tail chakra) before he was going blind (I mention this because kakashi,Obito,shusei and even Itachi used there mangekyo sharingans for years before having an eye problems at the same level as Sasuke) heck even now he had to get another power up from Jugo after awaken EMS. So what do you think

PLEASE NO HATEFUL REPLIES

Firstly, Sasuke is just as much gifted as Itachi. Secondly, reincarnation is based on spiritual characteristics and abilities (both of which Sasuke has). Thirdly, if Sasuke achieved the Curse Mark, he also lost it after his fight with Itachi. Fourthly, everybody has a mentor who trains them, Indra had the Sage, Itachi had Obito (who partially was his mentor as mentioned by Itachi) and Sasuke had Orochimaru, and then Obito. Additionally, Sasuke had trained with Orochimaru to get to the level of the top end shinobis like Indra and Madara at the age of 16. He wouldn't be able to reach to that level by training alone. Fifthly, He couldn't beat Kakashi and Naruto because he was weakened by his fight with Danzo. You already saw how well he could handle Naruto, Sakura, Sai and Yamato alone at the beginning of Manga Part 2. And sixthly, ITACHI IS DEAD.

 

[assface3]

Itachi wasn't the reincarnation of Indra. While Indra is the Curse of Hatred and Ashura is the Will of Fire, Itachi was the Grey Area.

Also, anyone with common sense knows that Itachi had much more natural talent than Sasuke. Sure, Sasuke may have accomplished some things around the same age Itachi had (Sharingan and Fireball Jutsu), but he only accomplished those things due to Itachi being to him what he used to be to Naruto - a benchmark. Itachi, on the other hand, didn't need or have a benchmark; everything that Sasuke strived for, in an attempt to catch up to Itachi or prove himself to his father, Itachi did naturally. Then, as Sasuke grew up, everything started to pretty much get spoon-fed to him.

That is one thing Sasuke doesn't have in common with Indra - natural talent.

 

[The Demon Hawk]

Itachi wasn't the reincarnation of Indra. While Indra is the Curse of Hatred and Ashura is the Will of Fire, Itachi was the Grey Area.

Also, anyone with common sense knows that Itachi had much more natural talent than Sasuke. Sure, Sasuke may have accomplished some things around the same age Itachi had (Sharingan and Fireball Jutsu), but he only accomplished those things due to Itachi being to him what he used to be to Naruto - a benchmark. Itachi, on the other hand, didn't need or have a benchmark; everything that Sasuke strived for, in an attempt to catch up to Itachi or prove himself to his father, Itachi did naturally. Then, as Sasuke grew up, everything started to pretty much get spoon-fed to him.

That is one thing Sasuke doesn't have in common with Indra - natural talent.

Itachi was not the grey area, he was the Will of Fire only...

Sasuke has just as much natural talent as Itachi or Indra as you say. Don't mix up motivation with natural talent. It was not like Itachi was just strollin' around learning new things and jutsus. He also had a benchmark to become the leader of the Uchiha clan...

 

[USSJ Future Trunks]

itachi did train. he called obito his mentor.

Itachi wasn't the reincarnation of Indra. While Indra is the Curse of Hatred and Ashura is the Will of Fire, Itachi was the Grey Area.

how is he grey when hes a violent sociopath with no concern for human sanity?

Itachi was not the grey area, he was the Will of Fire only...

peopel with will of fire dont murder hundreds of people, torture kids and betray konoha

 

[GhostProject]

Itachi is the light and darkness of Konoha. He carried the Will of Fire and believed in a noble cause, but his actions speak nearly the opposite, being the hand of betrayal and genocide for the "good of the nation."

I view Itachi as a pure elite soldier. As such, his character is comprised of both Hiruzen's beliefs and Danzo's actions. Still don't agree with his actions though.

As a whole, I would say Itachi matches more of an Indra character, but I think his overall character is supposed to represent the Hiruzen/Danzo era of Konoha, which is a better fit than either of the Sons I think.

 

[USSJ Future Trunks]

I view Itachi as a pure elite soldier. As such, his character is comprised of both Hiruzen's beliefs and Danzo's actions. Still don't agree with his actions though.

how is he a soldier when he doesnt care about loyalty or orders, and only served his own selfish agenda to enslave sasuke?
hiruzen isnt a violent mindrapist terrorist as far as im aware.

He carried the Will of Fire and believed in a noble cause,

he let psychopaths run around massacring innocent populations, helped akatsuki brutally murder gaara who was a konoha ally, coldly and brutally tortured kakashi and sasuke into comas and believed in stripping a child of all his free will via a controlling genjutsu.

 

[GhostProject]

how is he a soldier when he doesnt care about loyalty or orders, and only served his own selfish agenda to enslave sasuke?
hiruzen isnt a violent mindrapist terrorist as far as im aware.

he let psychopaths run around massacring innocent populations, helped akatsuki brutally murder gaara who was a konoha ally, coldly and brutally tortured kakashi and sasuke into comas and believed in stripping a child of all his free will via a controlling genjutsu.

His actions align with Danzo. Thinks he was allowed to make utilitarian decisions for the sake of others. Also I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have murdered his clan if he didn't think it was for the good of the Leaf.

In his final words to Sasuke, he clearly thought that what he was doing was for the sake of Sasuke and the village, but that he went about it wrong.

Way, way, way wrong. But ironically, not selfish :/

I believe this is how Kishi meant for us to interpret it, but I always really disliked the chapters where it seemed like Kishi was justifying genocide through Itachi, for the reasons you stated pretty much. It was awkward for me, especially when all my friends were talking about it like the Uchiha racism was justified.

 

[USSJ Future Trunks]

Thinks he was allowed to make utilitarian decisions for the sake of others. Also I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have murdered his clan if he didn't think it was for the good of the Leaf.

if he cared for the good of the leaf why did he betray them several times, unleash a psychopathic sasuke on everyone, do absolutely nothing at all to stop akatsuki, orochimaru or sasuke when they proved to be threats, and did nothing to expose danzo for the corrupt fuk he was?
if he cared for the good of the leaf why did he ensure its destruction?

i dont care about the genocide. they had little time and i understand he was trapped in orders. what makes him evil is his actions after that

In his final words to Sasuke, he clearly thought that what he was doing was for the sake of Sasuke and the village, but that he went about it wrong.

he clearly thought wrong because all he did was destroy both those things

 

[JesseBlack]

Firstly, Sasuke is just as much gifted as Itachi. Secondly, reincarnation is based on spiritual characteristics and abilities (both of which Sasuke has). Thirdly, if Sasuke achieved the Curse Mark, he also lost it after his fight with Itachi. Fourthly, everybody has a mentor who trains them, Indra had the Sage, Itachi had Obito (who partially was his mentor as mentioned by Itachi) and Sasuke had Orochimaru, and then Obito. Additionally, Sasuke had trained with Orochimaru to get to the level of the top end shinobis like Indra and Madara at the age of 16. He wouldn't be able to reach to that level by training alone. Fifthly, He couldn't beat Kakashi and Naruto because he was weakened by his fight with Danzo. You already saw how well he could handle Naruto, Sakura, Sai and Yamato alone at the beginning of Manga Part 2. And sixthly, ITACHI IS DEAD.

Dude accept that Itachi is more gifted than Sasuke by far

 

[The Demon Hawk]

peopel with will of fire dont murder hundreds of people, torture kids and betray konoha

Itachi slaughtered the entire Uchiha clan (despite his love for the clan) on the orders of Konoha elders (including Hiruzen) to prevent a coup d'etat. He didn't betray Konoha. He joined the Akatsuki also on Konoha's orders as a spy. He sacrificed his entire life for the protection of the village and accepted disgrace to maintain his clan's reputation. He did all of this against his will...
Get you facts straight before saying anything about Itachi. He suffered the most in the entire series...
Hashirama (founder of the Will of Fire) also claimed Itachi to be a better shinobi that himself after listening to his story...

 

[The Demon Hawk]

Dude accept that Itachi is more gifted than Sasuke by far

Sasuke has just as much raw talent as Itachi, AND he has more potential than Itachi. This has been mentioned countless places in the manga...

 

[USSJ Future Trunks]

Itachi slaughtered the entire Uchiha clan (despite his love for the clan) on the orders of Konoha elders (including Hiruzen) to prevent a coup d'etat. He didn't betray Konoha

itachi doomed konoha to destruction and betrayed everyone including the rest of the world through his violent terrorism and murders.
he slaughtered his clan when he easily could have saved the majority of them.
he betrayed the entire village and committed high treason when he threatened and extorted his own superiors, attacked and tortured kakashi into a coma and attempted to kill naruto in cold blood as well as murdering gaara, one of konohas most trusted allies.

He joined the Akatsuki also on Konoha's orders as a spy

no he didnt. he sat on his ass and did absoliutely nothing in akatsuki except help it out. he betrayed everyone and didnt tell anyone anything about akatsuki which left them defenceless

He sacrificed his entire life for the protection of the village

he murdered innocent poeple,tortured sasuke to madness, betrayed and tortured kakashi, and helped start a world war. he ensured konoha would be massacred and did nothing ot protect it whatsoever for several years. he ensured orochimaru would be able to kill half of konoha via doing nothing to stop him

accepted disgrace to maintain his clan's reputation

he betrayed his clan's last wishes, and betrayed everything that his mother and father had done for him, even lying to the world about his clans actions which he had no right to do. in uchiha's minds they did nothing wrong. so itachi was just being a hypocriticla manipulative liar, preferring an ideal uchiha clan to the actual one.

Get you facts straight before saying anything about Itachi. He suffered the most in the entire series...

no he didnt. he caused almost the most suffering to others actually, given he helped start a world war and killed 6 innocent people. as well as torturing sasuke into madness. he reveled in lying, manipulating and torturing his way through life.

Hashirama (founder of the Will of Fire) also claimed Itachi to be a better shinobi that himsel

itachi is an evil torturing terrorist. hashirama only heard a bare bones story from two biased idiots.

 

[Nocturnal Beast]

Itachi is the solo king.

 

[The Demon Hawk]

itachi doomed konoha to destruction and betrayed everyone including the rest of the world through his violent terrorism and murders.
he slaughtered his clan when he easily could have saved the majority of them.
he betrayed the entire village and committed high treason when he threatened and extorted his own superiors, attacked and tortured kakashi into a coma and attempted to kill naruto in cold blood as well as murdering gaara, one of konohas most trusted allies.

no he didnt. he sat on his ass and did absoliutely nothing in akatsuki except help it out. he betrayed everyone and didnt tell anyone anything about akatsuki which left them defenceless

he murdered innocent poeple,tortured sasuke to madness, betrayed and tortured kakashi, and helped start a world war. he ensured konoha would be massacred and did nothing ot protect it whatsoever for several years. he ensured orochimaru would be able to kill half of konoha via doing nothing to stop him

he betrayed his clan's last wishes, and betrayed everything that his mother and father had done for him, even lying to the world about his clans actions which he had no right to do. in uchiha's minds they did nothing wrong. so itachi was just being a hypocriticla manipulative liar, preferring an ideal uchiha clan to the actual one.

no he didnt. he caused almost the most suffering to others actually, given he helped start a world war and killed 6 innocent people. as well as torturing sasuke into madness. he reveled in lying, manipulating and torturing his way through life.

itachi is an evil torturing terrorist. hashirama only heard a bare bones story from two biased idiots.

Your post is just a piece of shit without any proof or explanation. You just gave unjustified statements which you grasped by your f***ed up perception.

How the hell did Itachi "doom Konoha to destruction and betray it" when he clearly committed all of his actions under Konoha's OWN ORDERS? He never betrayed anyone. He had to go rogue to present himself as a murderer, and eventually had to leave the village he loved so much that he slaughtered his clan for it's sake. Hiruzen (the Hokage during the massacre) himself admitted this.

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He didn't threaten any of his superiors, he obediently executed their orders. He only threatened Danzo not to harm Sasuke or else he would leak the information on the Uchiha clan's massacre to everyone, as Danzo was also involved in this.
If Itachi wanted to kill Kakashi, he could have easily done that, but he only put him in coma, which is proof that he was not a killer, but a pacifist. He attacked Kakashi only as a measure of defence. He tried to avoid fight with Kakashi at first, but eventually was put into it.

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Then Kakashi was surprised that why didn't Itachi kill him.

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He never attempted to kill Naruto or Gaara. Give proof for that.

He didn't help Akatsuki except for what he had to do. He leaked out Akatsuki's plans to Konoha's leadership to protect the village.

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Give me an example when he didn't tell about Akatsuki's plan leaving others defenceless.
He did not help in starting a war, but helped in preventing a war. Give me the reference of any occasion which proves Itachi's help in the war. He never murdered innocent people. The people he murdered were planning to start a war. So to prevent a war, he did all this.
He never intended to torture Sasuke. He just wanted Sasuke to get stronger by means of his death by Sasuke's hand. He realised that his methods were wrong and apologized to Sasuke for whatever he did to him and making him go rogue.

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Yeah, he did betray his clan's wishes because they were doing the wrong thing. And he lied to the world about his clan for the sake of his clan i.e. to avert the negative reputation of the clan. He did all this because he loved the clan so much. But when the Uchiha clan was planning a coup d'etat, he had no choice but to eliminate them.
How the hell did he betray his parents? He had to kill them because of the orders he was given, and he respected his parents' last wish, which was to protect Sasuke. He did everything he could with the cleanest intentions to respect his parent's will.
And don't just come up with stupid excuses about a bare bone story just because Hashirama himself said it. Hashirama heard Itachi's story from Hiruzen, who knew everything about Itachi and Hiruzen's statement were the absolute truth as he knew everything about the Uchiha clan elimination plan. And after listening to that, he praised Itachi calling him a better shinobi even than himself.

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[Mad Daz]

If you are going to write something try to indent some lines insted of leaving it in a block of text. It makes it easier for those of us reading on a mobile phone

 

[USSJ Future Trunks]

How the hell did Itachi "doom Konoha to destruction and betray it" when he clearly committed all of his actions under Konoha's OWN ORDERS?

1. he gave nukes to akatsuki. no matter your intentions, nukes and weaponising multiple biju are always a bad idea. let alone handing them over to known missing nins.
2. he refused to inform his superiors of the situation, namely tsunade and her commanders. which is high treason and negligence
3. corrupted sasuke and sent him on a warpath of destruction and darkness.
4. did nothing at all to stop or hinder orochimaru, danzo or sasuke

He never betrayed anyone

he betrayed everyone he ever met.
he betrayed konoha when he refused to inform them of crucial information, refusing to defeat konoha's enemies, and threatened konoha with selling intel and weapons to their rivals.
he betrayed his family by murdering them in their sleep for disagreement in politics, then covered it all up when thats not what his clan would want. did kumo cover up kinkaku? no. you only cover up a genocide if its unjustified.
he betrayed the more innocent citizens of konoha by doing nothing to stop corrupt old men who would seek to cover up horrific crimes and lie to the world to hide their own involvement. heroes like naruto wouldnt stand for it.

e. He had to go rogue to present himself as a murderer

no he didnt. he could have exposed hiruzen and danzo for the thugs they really are, and be hailed as a hero by the civilians.
then he could train sasuke as his protege and keep him as a man with good and noble ideals.
and before you say "IT WAS ORDERRRS" itachi only follows his own orders. he doesnt give two flying fuks about konoha's hierarchy which is why he didnt even say one word to tsunade, or inform one of konoha's allied nations of madara's survival. or try to stop the nukes getting in akatsuki hands by any means necessary. and if he was so set on killing the few to save the many i ask you again, why didnt he take down sasuke and oro.

He didn't threaten any of his superiors, he obediently executed their orders.

he threatened danzo that if he didnt lay off sasuke he would commit high treason, betray the country and sell intel to their rivals. just thinking about doing such a thing means itachi doesnt care about authority, heirarchy, loyalty or doing the right thing. his only loyalty i to himself.

else he would leak the information on the Uchiha clan's massacre to everyone,

which he should have done immediarely after they tried to cover it up. i mean if it was such a good and noble genocide what does itachi have to hide? besides let sasuke know his family were traitors.

and eventually had to leave the village he loved so much that he slaughtered his clan for it's sake.

he ensured klonoha got wiped out, by handing bijus to akatsuki, so he couldnt love konoha that much. he also hated the world so much that he willingly put it all in danger, just to spare his own city. obito reigned terror over the mist village because itachis deal let him

If Itachi wanted to kill Kakashi, he could have easily done that, but he only put him in coma

that is evil sadistic and brutal. do you think the only thing villains have ever done is kill enemies right away? sometimes its crueler to leave them alive to suffer with the knowledge they never stood a chance. on the laundry list of crimes itachis committed, murder is basically the only one he hasnt really done besides his clan. doesnt mean hes a kind little bunny. putting someone in a coma is horrific and brutal.

hich is proof that he was not a killer, but a pacifist.

no its proof hes a savage traitorous attacker. as i said, sometimes its more evil to leave someone alive. a pacifist would not have fought at all.let alone lock a friend inside a nightmare dimension that might break their mind permanently.
is it more evil to kill someone or to use mindrape to break them?

He attacked Kakashi only as a measure of defence. He tried to avoid fight with Kakashi at first, but eventually was put into it.

kabuto was able to avoid two confrontations with kakashi and escape him without a single kunai being thrown. and your telling me itachi an s-class ninja and talented warrior cant replicate this? he must not have been on his best day then or something.
first thing itachi said to asuma and kurenai was "get out of my way or die". he threatened to murder two of his comrades and your telling me hes trying to avoid a fight?

Then Kakashi was surprised that why didn't Itachi kill him.

and then immediately after kakashi lost consciousness, itachi ordered kisame to kill kakashi and the others

He never attempted to kill Naruto or Gaara.

1. he tried to have naruto killed when he went to get him. kisame was INCHES away from slicing off narutos legs at which point itd be too late to renege on the mission.
2. gaara died because itachi elected to interfere with konohas rescue mission

He didn't help Akatsuki except for what he had to do. He leaked out Akatsuki's plans to Konoha's leadership to protect the village.

he helped akatsuki in eveyr way he could so they could destroy the 5 nations.
he didnt tell konoah or anyone anything of any use which resulted in two catastrophic attacks by deidara and pain and thousands dead

He never intended to torture Sasuke. He just wanted Sasuke to get stronger by means of his death by Sasuke's hand.

thats your big justification eh? he wants sasuke to get stronger so he cruelly savagely and horrififcially rapes sasuke's mind for 3 days, brainwashes and mocks him for being weak then orders sasuke to kill his friends?
the only thing im surprised about is that sauske stayed sane as long as he did after getting 3 sessions of itachi mindrape.

He did not help in starting a war, but helped in preventing a war.

he helped kill tens of thousands of alliance ninja and helped start the worst war in history. he accomplished this by giving aid to 10 evil s-class terrorists, recruiting deidara even, interfering with konoha's efforts to become strong enough to face this threat, tried to have naruto murdered, had gaara murdered and helped hand over living nukes to said terrorists knowing full well they had nefarious intentions.
he helped in orochimarus invasion by doing nothing to stop it.
btw murder by inaction is pretty serious

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Criminally negligent manslaughter is variously referred to as criminally negligent homicide in the United States, gross negligence manslaughter in England and Wales. In Scotland and some Commonwealth of Nations jurisdictions the offence of culpable homicide might apply.

It occurs where death results from serious negligence, or, in some jurisdictions, serious recklessness. A high degree of negligence is required to warrant criminal liability. A related concept is that of willful blindness, which is where a defendant intentionally puts himself in a position where he will be unaware of facts which would render him liable.

Criminally negligent manslaughter occurs where there is an omission to act when there is a duty to do so, or a failure to perform a duty owed, which leads to a death. The existence of the duty is essential because the law does not impose criminal liability for a failure to act unless a specific duty is owed to the victim. It is most common in the case of professionals who are grossly negligent in the course of their employment. An example is where a doctor fails to notice a patient's oxygen supply has disconnected and the patient dies (R v Adomako).

He never murdered innocent people. The people he murdered were planning to start a war. So to prevent a war, he did all this.

he murdered by inaction and by selfishness. for example, he made no efforts to suggest better ways to stop his family, or convince hiruzen to spare the younger uchihas who might have known about it but not comprehended its wrongness.
he murdered everyone who obito killed as yaguras controller, through the selfish deal that forced obito to not attack konoha but left anywhere else as fair game including konohas allies. which is why deidara was seconds away from destroying suna.
he killed off 6 jinchurikis through criminal negligence and refusal to even try to warn them or rescue them. all for the sake of his "cover" which was getting nothign done anyway. what did he know exactly that was so worth it? he wasnt trusted in the inner circle. he was just another goon to nagato, konan and zetsu. wtf did they care if itachi saved one of the jins, killed kisame and got away. the msot theyd do is send deidara or kakuzu after him. they have more important shit to do.

He never intended to torture Sasuke.

i dont give two ounces of shit, he did it, knowing how much it would hurt and traumatise sasuke and how likely it'd be that sasuke would simply go insane or comotose for good

He realised that his methods were wrong and apologized to Sasuke for whatever he did to him and making him go rogue.

NO HE DIDNT. not once did he fully admit the wrongness of his misdeeds. all he said was "oh damn you became a criminal. well i guess i reget it then". itachi knew full well what sasuke had done to get to that final battle they had. he knew fuill well sasuke was a traitorous missing nin who sacrificed all he loved for power and hate. but was he like "oh no what have i done? ive ruined your life. sasuke im so sorry, please, just finish me off now, i cant bear this. i hurt my own brother and made him into this."
no. itachi just blinked and carried on like he didnt care.
the moment he rethought everythign was when naruto informed him sasuke had NOT let go of the hate, and vowed to kill off konoha.
not before. in fact he acted surprised that sasuke didnt go back to konoha. because in itachis mind konoha is the only place sasuke should ever be. i bet if naruto said "sasukes doing great, hes working an honest life in a backwater village" itachi would still be like "O_O" and shout noooo to the heavens.
the reason he realised he effed up wasnt that sasuke became a monstrous traitorous power hungry thug. its that he was targeting konoha. i bet if sasuke said the exact words of "im gonna kill madara, and since i know he was mizukage imma kill everyone who ever supported him" itachi would blink and say "alright then". why? because fuk innocent lives, only KONOHA's innocent lives matter.

Yeah, he did betray his clan's wishes because they were doing the wrong thing.

according to him. according to him hes right and according to them they are right so who is itachi to judge them and play jury and manipulator rather than just tell the truth? if he loved them he would honor them by letting them be remembered how they want to be remembered. if he didnt even do that much, just how much could he have loved them if he cant even offer a modicum of respect for fallen enemies?
would gai lie about kisame and say he was a great guy who was tragically killed one day? no.
would hashirama lie abotu madara and say hes a great guy? no.
its about actually being respectful. uchihas gave their lives for what they believed in and all they got was coverups and lies, painting them as submissive senju dogs. thanks for nothing itachi. he clearly didnt understand anything about his family if eh thinks coverups and lies are the best course of action. he only did that because he views them as scum who didnt deserve even that.
meaning his own parents were so hated by their son that he couldnt even properly remember them. what was it kakashi said? those who cant treasure their friends memory are worse than trash? itachi disagrees with their politics so he'll kill them and paint them as senju dogs which they arent?

But when the Uchiha clan was planning a coup d'etat, he had no choice but to eliminate them.

wrong. he had thousands of choices and a few correct ones. genocide and then lying about it all wasnt one of them

And he lied to the world about his clan for the sake of his clan i.e. to avert the negative reputation of the clan.

this is a chaotic ninja wordl that praises training kids to murder others. wtf does konoah care if "omg i guess uchihas are revolutionaries who wanted to overthrow us"? theyre dead. its hardly important to anyone except the dead uchihas what really went down. but itachi coudlnt even do that much for them and honor them as they were, not how he'd like them to be.
lying about it doesnt change the facts. and its only negative in his eyes. maybe if the truth is out, other nations would see its not ok to be submissive towards their governments and start up their own revolutions for a better world. like how it happened in our world. the american colonies rebelling didnt start some huge world war. it just got them their own freedom and government. only difference is uchiha clan stood no chance by themselves but were willing to die for their beliefs.
i keep bringing it up but do you think darth vader should have killed every last rebel including his daughter and son, and then get called a hero for it? just answer that. if vader kills the rebels before the war starts in earnest, is he a hero who saved millions of lives?
danzos rule and disregard for innocent lives continued thanks to itachis efforts stopping the only people brave enough to do something about a corrupt government.

How the hell did he betray his parents? He had to kill them because of the orders he was given, and he respected his parents' last wish, which was to protect Sasuke.

no he shitted on them in every way and spat on their memories. first he murdered them piontlessly and needlessly since we already know itachi has no respect for orders or his officers. then he refused to let them be remembered as revolutionaries like they obviously wanted to go down as, and then he tortured sasuke and beat him into a coma which REALLY takes a shit on fugakus last words.

And don't just come up with stupid excuses about a bare bone story just because Hashirama himself said it. Hashirama heard Itachi's story from Hiruzen, who knew everything about Itachi

really? so hiruzen knew sasuke was gonna get brainwashed and enslaved, got tortured a second time and manipulated into embracing darkness and hate? he knew itachi attacked and tortured kakashi, and got in konohas way?he knew he handed over the jins to akatsuki?

And after listening to that, he praised Itachi calling him a better shinobi even than himself.

all he heard was "zomg we forced him to kill his clan to avert a war then he spied on akatsuki". thats pretty much all hiruzen said. and all hashirama could get from that is itachi is just another tool of corrupt murderous a-holes. he didnt know how many kids were in uchiha clan, he didnt know they had other options, he didnt know about itachis other crimes and efforts in handing living nukes to akatsuki etc.
hashirama said what he said because hes a respectful, nice, humble and kind man. tobirama even calls him stupid and naive to his face. tobirama would have reacted with disgust and horror if he knew the full extent of itachis life.

 

[The Demon Hawk]

Ah, dafuq am I up against? As much as I enjoy forum combat, I'm going to be honest and say that I'm contending here. You are basically repeating the same shit over and over without logical reasoning or factual support regarding your statements. You are just using your biased opinions as a convincing tool, and that's not gonna work against me. Try to be realistic and discern the plot as it is. You should also provide manga scans for a genuine representation of your points. All I apprehend is optimism. Facts do not change just because you perceive them otherwise. You made every possible endeavor to reprehend Itachi without comprehending the situation he is in...

1. he gave nukes to akatsuki. no matter your intentions, nukes and weaponising multiple biju are always a bad idea. let alone handing them over to known missing nins.

So what else could he have done? When you are working under someone, you have to obey their commands, no matter what type or order that is, or else you're fired. But Itachi couldn't leave Akatsuki because provide intel to Konoha was his top priority, and Akatsuki had others members to provide nukes and bijuus incase he left. So leaving Akatsuki was a drawback for him and Konoha, not for them. So he had to do according to Akatsuki's whim.

2. he refused to inform his superiors of the situation, namely tsunade and her commanders. which is high treason and negligence

No, he didn't. Give me an example of his treason or ignorance.

3. corrupted sasuke and sent him on a warpath of destruction and darkness.

Yeah, that was his mistake he also regretted doing. But, his intentions were positive.

4. did nothing at all to stop or hinder orochimaru, danzo or sasuke

He didn't know anything about Orochimaru's invasion so he couldn't provide intel. Orochimaru wasn't in the Akatsuki at that time. His attack was sudden. And it wasn't necessary for him to intercede even if he had knowledge of Orochimaru's intrusion. Konoha had powerful shinobis who could deal with Orochimaru and his army.
Danzo was a retard and employed atrocious means to fulfill his aspirations, but he wasn't evil. He had no intention of devastating Konoha.
And he did nothing at all to stop Sasuke? Then who stored his crow inside Naruto to apply Kotoamatsukami on Sasuke if he ever attacked Konoha? Who performed the transcription seal on Sasuke to prevent Tobi from telling him the truth about Itachi and Konoha, so that Sasuke would never think of destroying Konoha in the first place? Who told the truth to Sasuke when he was informed that Sasuke's aim was to destroy Konoha? Who entrusted Naruto with the responsibilities of protecting Sasuke and Konoha?

he betrayed everyone he ever met.
he betrayed konoha when he refused to inform them of crucial information, refusing to defeat konoha's enemies, and threatened konoha with selling intel and weapons to their rivals.
he betrayed his family by murdering them in their sleep for disagreement in politics, then covered it all up when thats not what his clan would want. did kumo cover up kinkaku? no. you only cover up a genocide if its unjustified.
he betrayed the more innocent citizens of konoha by doing nothing to stop corrupt old men who would seek to cover up horrific crimes and lie to the world to hide their own involvement. heroes like naruto wouldnt stand for it.

No, he didn't betray anyone, especially not Konoha. And defeating the enemies of Konoha literally meant getting fired from Akatsuki because he would definitely get noticed by Akatsuki if he did that. So, that wasn't a possible option. He never threatened Konoha. What's up with your apprehension, dude? He killed his parents in their full consciousness after promising to comply their final wish. You conceal the truth behind a genocide if it's unjustified AND if you don't care about your image to keep intact the reputation of your clan. Itachi was in the second category. He did everything possible thing he could to protect his village from villains (indirectly of course). Don't bash Itachi as if it was solely his responsibility to guard Konoha and every other person in that village was a 4 year old. There were other capable shinobi as well who could have done that job, so it wasn't necessary for Itachi to intervene. The best he could do was to provide information on what he could which he did very well.

no he didnt. he could have exposed hiruzen and danzo for the thugs they really are, and be hailed as a hero by the civilians.

Danzo may be an idiot, but Hiruzen was a wise man. He was initially against the annihilation plan of the Uchiha clan but eventually resorted to it as the only viable option. Both of them were loyal citizens of Konoha though. Exposing Hiruzen and Danzo was useless. Do you really think exposing them both would suddenly mend his image in the eyes of civilians after the devastation of the Uchihas? Plus, Obito was also involved in the murder. Itachi, considering him to be Madara, pleaded him to give up his plans for Konoha's demolition in return for the killing of his clan members. So, the Uchiha clan massacre didn't solely take place due to their plans of coup d'etat.

then he could train sasuke as his protege and keep him as a man with good and noble ideals.

That is a good idea, only if Itachi had the option.

and before you say "IT WAS ORDERRRS" itachi only follows his own orders. he doesnt give two flying fuks about konoha's hierarchy which is why he didnt even say one word to tsunade, or inform one of konoha's allied nations of madara's survival. or try to stop the nukes getting in akatsuki hands by any means necessary. and if he was so set on killing the few to save the many i ask you again, why didnt he take down sasuke and oro.

Itachi not informing Tsunade about "Madara's" survival was a fault in the plot. This whole Obito-Madara stuff was an afterthought. Maybe, Kishimoto forgot to correlate the plot advancement with Itachi.

he threatened danzo that if he didnt lay off sasuke he would commit high treason, betray the country and sell intel to their rivals. just thinking about doing such a thing means itachi doesnt care about authority, heirarchy, loyalty or doing the right thing. his only loyalty i to himself.

It was nothing like that. He just threatened to expose Danzo.

which he should have done immediarely after they tried to cover it up. i mean if it was such a good and noble genocide what does itachi have to hide? besides let sasuke know his family were traitors.

I already told you the reason for this. He willingly did it. And he also forbade Naruto to tell anything about that to anyone even after his death. So what does that prove?

he ensured klonoha got wiped out, by handing bijus to akatsuki, so he couldnt love konoha that much. he also hated the world so much that he willingly put it all in danger, just to spare his own city. obito reigned terror over the mist village because itachis deal let him

As I said, Itachi's escape from the Akatsuki would change nothing for those guys. When you take an action, you should see the net benefit, not just the benefit.

that is evil sadistic and brutal. do you think the only thing villains have ever done is kill enemies right away? sometimes its crueler to leave them alive to suffer with the knowledge they never stood a chance. on the laundry list of crimes itachis committed, murder is basically the only one he hasnt really done besides his clan. doesnt mean hes a kind little bunny. putting someone in a coma is horrific and brutal. no its proof hes a savage traitorous attacker. as i said, sometimes its more evil to leave someone alive. a pacifist would not have fought at all.let alone lock a friend inside a nightmare dimension that might break their mind permanently.
is it more evil to kill someone or to use mindrape to break them?

Look, Kakashi didn't know about Itachi's true motives, and just like all others, he believed him to be a criminal. Also, as Itachi predicted more and more shinobi were coming after hearing the news of Itachi and Kisame's intrusion, and Itachi wanted to avoid a fight as much as possible. Putting Kakashi in coma was the least he could do to hinder the fight without killing anyone. Plus, he must have known that Tsunade could cure Kakashi. So that "horrific and brutal deed" was a very genius approach from Itachi best dealing with the circumstances.

kabuto was able to avoid two confrontations with kakashi and escape him without a single kunai being thrown. and your telling me itachi an s-class ninja and talented warrior cant replicate this? he must not have been on his best day then or something.

WTF? That was a completely different scenario.

first thing itachi said to asuma and kurenai was "get out of my way or die". he threatened to murder two of his comrades and your telling me hes trying to avoid a fight? and then immediately after kakashi lost consciousness, itachi ordered kisame to kill kakashi and the others

If you are an actor, you have to act like an actor. Saying things is completely different from the actual meaning. Only your optimistic approach towards Itachi has blinded you. He never said to kill Kakashi. We don't know the whole truth behind ordering Kisame to kill the others. Maybe, he saw Gai coming, so he might have known Kisame's attempt would be futile. Neither you nor I can establish anything regarding this.

1. he tried to have naruto killed when he went to get him. kisame was INCHES away from slicing off narutos legs at which point itd be too late to renege on the mission.
2. gaara died because itachi elected to interfere with konohas rescue mission

First of all, Itachi already told the four senseis that he was after Naruto. The only reason for that was so that they could prepare reinforcements against them. Why else would he tell his real purpose? You never go to a shop and tell the shopkeeper that I'm here to steal certain stuff from your shop. Secondly, the Akatsuki members were not allowed to kill jinchuurikis. So no one was killing Naruto. That was just a warning shot for Naruto.
Regarding Gaara, he couldn't have disobeyed Akatsuki's orders and I already told you the reason for that.

he helped akatsuki in eveyr way he could so they could destroy the 5 nations.
he didnt tell konoah or anyone anything of any use which resulted in two catastrophic attacks by deidara and pain and thousands dead

I already discussed about this earlier. He had to help Akatsuki to stay in that organization because Itachi's departure wasn't a big deal for a powerful S-class organization. They could easily fulfill their objectives without Itachi's help. Yeah, but Konoha surely would experience a loss if Itachi deserted from the Akatsuki.
Firstly, Itachi never took the responsibility for anything regarding Suna. Secondly, how do you know Itachi didn't inform Suna about Diedara's invasion? Even if he did notify them, if wouldn't make a difference, because Diedara's target was Gaara, and Gaara wouldn't run away into hiding like a chicken if he heard that Akatsuki was on the move. Otherwise, the same thing would happen as it did with Pain's invasion i.e demolition of the village. And Itachi wasn't alive when Pain attacked Konoha.

thats your big justification eh? he wants sasuke to get stronger so he cruelly savagely and horrififcially rapes sasuke's mind for 3 days, brainwashes and mocks him for being weak then orders sasuke to kill his friends?
the only thing im surprised about is that sauske stayed sane as long as he did after getting 3 sessions of itachi mindrape.

Itachi was sorry for all that as well, so why bash him then.

he helped kill tens of thousands of alliance ninja and helped start the worst war in history. he accomplished this by giving aid to 10 evil s-class terrorists, recruiting deidara even, interfering with konoha's efforts to become strong enough to face this threat, tried to have naruto murdered, had gaara murdered and helped hand over living nukes to said terrorists knowing full well they had nefarious intentions.

He started the worst war in history? Itachi refusing to give aid to Akatsuki wouldn't change a thing. And why always blame Itachi for everything. Were all the other ninjas in the shinobi world blind and deaf? Were they newborn babies who couldn't think on their own? Weren't they aware of Akatsuki's motives of collecting Bijuus? Why didn't they plan something to block all this?
When did he ever interfere with Konoha's efforts to become strong? And I've already explained that Itachi played a negligible role in Gaara's death. And Naruto was never on the verge of death, at least not in Itachi's presence.

he helped in orochimarus invasion by doing nothing to stop it.
btw murder by inaction is pretty serious

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Criminally negligent manslaughter is variously referred to as criminally negligent homicide in the United States, gross negligence manslaughter in England and Wales. In Scotland and some Commonwealth of Nations jurisdictions the offence of culpable homicide might apply.
It occurs where death results from serious negligence, or, in some jurisdictions, serious recklessness. A high degree of negligence is required to warrant criminal liability. A related concept is that of willful blindness, which is where a defendant intentionally puts himself in a position where he will be unaware of facts which would render him liable.

Criminally negligent manslaughter occurs where there is an omission to act when there is a duty to do so, or a failure to perform a duty owed, which leads to a death. The existence of the duty is essential because the law does not impose criminal liability for a failure to act unless a specific duty is owed to the victim. It is most common in the case of professionals who are grossly negligent in the course of their employment. An example is where a doctor fails to notice a patient's oxygen supply has disconnected and the patient dies (R v Adomako).

Already explained why you can't blame Itachi for Orochimaru's invasion. And "criminally negligent homicide" is not what Itachi did. He wasn't even aware of Orochimaru's plans for invasion.

he murdered by inaction and by selfishness. for example, he made no efforts to suggest better ways to stop his family, or convince hiruzen to spare the younger uchihas who might have known about it but not comprehended its wrongness.

How can you say that Itachi didn't suggest any better way to stop the murder. There wasn't any better way to stop the genocide while completely satisfying Konoha's leadership as well as Obito because Obito wanted either Konoha's destruction or revenge on his clan for betraying them. Younger Uchiha's could end up becoming like Sasuke so disposing of them might seem necessary. BTW, Obito was also involved in that so it isn't necessary that they were killed by Itachi's hands. Itachi had no power over Obito so he couldn't afford a combat with him.

he murdered everyone who obito killed as yaguras controller, through the selfish deal that forced obito to not attack konoha but left anywhere else as fair game including konohas allies. which is why deidara was seconds away from destroying suna.
he killed off 6 jinchurikis through criminal negligence and refusal to even try to warn them or rescue them. all for the sake of his "cover" which was getting nothign done anyway. what did he know exactly that was so worth it? he wasnt trusted in the inner circle. he was just another goon to nagato, konan and zetsu.

How can you blame Itachi for everything Obito did? If you work in an organization, and the boss of that organization decides to murder someone ALL ON HIS OWN, how can you blame every person in that organization for that? That is pretty stupid to think like that. Obito committed that deed personally, so Itachi is not questionable.
And that genocide deal was not selfish. It was one of the hardest decisions in his life. Also, can you suggest ways in which Itachi could prevent the incident in Suna? Can you also suggest ways in which Itachi could prevent the killing of those 6 jinchuurikis? He had no power to stop all that. And only Itachi did criminal negligence? What about every other shinobi?

wtf did they care if itachi saved one of the jins, killed kisame and got away. the msot theyd do is send deidara or kakuzu after him. they have more important shit to do.

Yeah, and this a great method to avoid 'criminal negligence', right? And I already told you, leaving Akatsuki was not in his or the village's advantage.

NO HE DIDNT. not once did he fully admit the wrongness of his misdeeds. all he said was "oh damn you became a criminal. well i guess i reget it then". itachi knew full well what sasuke had done to get to that final battle they had. he knew fuill well sasuke was a traitorous missing nin who sacrificed all he loved for power and hate. but was he like "oh no what have i done? ive ruined your life. sasuke im so sorry, please, just finish me off now, i cant bear this. i hurt my own brother and made him into this."
no. itachi just blinked and carried on like he didnt care.
the moment he rethought everythign was when naruto informed him sasuke had NOT let go of the hate, and vowed to kill off konoha.
not before. in fact he acted surprised that sasuke didnt go back to konoha. because in itachis mind konoha is the only place sasuke should ever be. i bet if naruto said "sasukes doing great, hes working an honest life in a backwater village" itachi would still be like "O_O" and shout noooo to the heavens.
the reason he realised he effed up wasnt that sasuke became a monstrous traitorous power hungry thug. its that he was targeting konoha. i bet if sasuke said the exact words of "im gonna kill madara, and since i know he was mizukage imma kill everyone who ever supported him" itachi would blink and say "alright then". why? because fuk innocent lives, only KONOHA's innocent lives matter according to him.

He really did feel sorry for whatever happened to Sasuke due to his naive decision. But he did not "completely admit" the wrongness of his deed, because it wasn't completely wrong. He just tried to make Sasuke a strong ninja by hating him, to grow powerful and avenge their clan. He actually never intended for Sasuke to go rogue. In fact, whatever Sasuke did was never contemplated by Itachi for him. He basically motivated him to obtain power. He did not decide Sasuke's course of gaining that power. Whatever path Sasuke chose after that is completely Sasuke's fault. Sasuke is not a puppet. He has a mind of his own. He should have realised that what I'm doing is wrong. DON'T BLAME ITACHI FOR EVERYTHING.
BTW, when he realised that, things were already out of reach. He couldn't control the situation then. He didn't have any intimation that Sasuke is going to turn into a missing nin. The least he could do then was to ensure that Sasuke would not endanger Konoha, so he tried to prevent Tobi from coming close to Sasuke and also storing the crow inside Naruto.
And you don't know about Itachi's reaction if Sasuke said those exact dialogue as you quoted. So stop making arbitrary assumptions.

according to him hes right and according to them they are right so who is itachi to judge them and play jury and manipulator rather than just tell the truth? if he loved them he would honor them by letting them be remembered how they want to be remembered. if he didnt even do that much, just how much could he have loved them if he cant even offer a modicum of respect for fallen enemies?

According to them, they are right. And according to Itachi, he is right. And considering the fact, Itachi was right. Itachi never judged them, he knew them. He didn't "play jury and manipulator", he just concealed their shameful truth. And no matter how atrocious a person is, he doesn't want to be remembered by dreadful words. Yeah, so Itachi did love them and honor them, and exactly let them be remembered how they wanted to be remembered by taking all the disgrace of their deeds on his own self.

would gai lie about kisame and say he was a great guy who was tragically killed one day? no.
would hashirama lie abotu madara and say hes a great guy? no.
its about actually being respectful.

What a ridiculous comparison! The Uchiha clan wasn't Itachi's foe. Whereas Kisame and Madara were pure enemies of Gai and Hashirama respectively.

uchihas gave their lives for what they believed in and all they got was coverups and lies, painting them as submissive senju dogs. thanks for nothing itachi. he clearly didnt understand anything about his family if eh thinks coverups and lies are the best course of action. he only did that because he views them as scum who didnt deserve even that.
meaning his own parents were so hated by their son that he couldnt even properly remember them. what was it kakashi said? those who cant treasure their friends memory are worse than trash? itachi disagrees with their politics so he'll kill them and paint them as senju dogs which they arent?

The Uchihas didn't give their lives. As a matter of fact, their lives were taken before they could commit that 'infamous deed'. And yeah, they did got cover ups, because it was beneficial for their good reputation. The whole genocide never gave any clue about Uchihas being submissive Senju dogs. In fact, the entire picture the outside world got of that incident was that "an evil murderer decided to destroy his clan for his own advantage". So Itachi ruined his own image to maintain the honor of the Uchiha clan and obscure their actions.

wrong. he had thousands of choices and a few correct ones. genocide and then lying about it all wasnt one of them

Could you suggest a few plausible alternatives?

this is a chaotic ninja wordl that praises training kids to murder others. wtf does konoah care if "omg i guess uchihas are revolutionaries who wanted to overthrow us"? theyre dead. its hardly important to anyone except the dead uchihas what really went down. but itachi coudlnt even do that much for them and honor them as they were, not how he'd like them to be.

Itachi EXACTLY honored them as they wanted. And the real problem wasn't that Uchihas wanted to overthrow the government. The real problem was that they decided to do all this by COUP D'ETAT.

lying about it doesnt change the facts.

Precisely...

and its only negative in his eyes. maybe if the truth is out, other nations would see its not ok to be submissive towards their governments and start up their own revolutions for a better world.

You mean planning a coup d'etat against your government is a right thing to do when it involves huge bloodshed as in the Uchihas' case? Being not submissive is right in some cases, but pulling out a carnage is NOT RIGHT. The Uchiha's indignation against their government was so robust, that their was no other way aside from the resignation of Konoha's leadership. And Konoha's leadership would never give the government in Uchiha's hands especially when the Uchiha clan's image was unacceptable in the society and the citizens of Konoha would never accept anything like that.

like how it happened in our world. the american colonies rebelling didnt start some huge world war. it just got them their own freedom and government. only difference is uchiha clan stood no chance by themselves but were willing to die for their beliefs.

Sure, there was a conflict between the American colonies, but it was only a rivalry among themselves unlike the Uchiha clan who wanted to assassinate the government. They never wanted to overthrow the US government by bloodshed like the Uchihas were planning. All they wanted was a separate land and they were contented after the demarcations were made. But Uchihas would not be satisfied with that.

i keep bringing it up but do you think darth vader should have killed every last rebel including his daughter and son, and then get called a hero for it? just answer that. if vader kills the rebels before the war starts in earnest, is he a hero who saved millions of lives?

Since I've already answered logically and factually regarding Itachi's case, there is no need to bring Darth Vader into the mix as a means of comparison and relativity. I'm not going to prolong this already enormous essay explaining the difference between their circumstances. Plus, another quarrel regarding Star Wars will initiate. So, I'm omitting this for convenience.

danzos rule and disregard for innocent lives continued thanks to itachis efforts stopping the only people brave enough to do something about a corrupt government.

Come on, now don't start bashing Danzo. He may be an a**hole, but he never took "innocent" lives. So why should Itachi needlessly kill him? And the government wasn't corrupt. None of Konoha's Hokages was ever a nefarious person including Hiruzen. The only thing blamable they did was to disaggregate the Uchihas due their suspicions regarding them. So, it wasn't really their fault. They just took protective measures against the Uchiha clan. So eliminating the clan was the right decision, though it MAY not be the most sensible decision.

no he shitted on them in every way and spat on their memories. first he murdered them piontlessly and needlessly since we already know itachi has no respect for orders or his officers. then he refused to let them be remembered as revolutionaries like they obviously wanted to go down as, and then he tortured sasuke and beat him into a coma which REALLY takes a shit on fugakus last words.

What? Itachi spent his life following orders from others which were against his will.
He didn't murder his parents pointlessly. It was done for definite reasons. He loved and respected his parents and their will, though he wasn't able to completely fulfill their final wish, but he sure intended to do so.
And it would be stupid of you to think that the Uchihas would be remembered as revolutionaries by dismissing their government through bloodshed and taking over. It would over arouse and augment hatred and enmity from both sides.

really? so hiruzen knew sasuke was gonna get brainwashed and enslaved, got tortured a second time and manipulated into embracing darkness and hate? he knew itachi attacked and tortured kakashi, and got in konohas way?he knew he handed over the jins to akatsuki?

No, he didn't. And if he knew, he would surely advice Itachi for a better method for making Sasuke a strong and respectable shinobi. But his wrong decisions and miscalculated actions don't make Itachi a ruthless and hateful brother.

all he heard was "zomg we forced him to kill his clan to avert a war then he spied on akatsuki". thats pretty much all hiruzen said. and all hashirama could get from that is itachi is just another tool of corrupt murderous a-holes. he didnt know how many kids were in uchiha clan, he didnt know they had other options, he didnt know about itachis other crimes and efforts in handing living nukes to akatsuki etc.
hashirama said what he said because hes a respectful, nice, humble and kind man. tobirama even calls him stupid and naive to his face. tobirama would have reacted with disgust and horror if he knew the full extent of itachis life.

He got a complete idea about Itachi's personality and his spirit for self sacrifice from that one sentence. Yeah, Hashirama didn't know how many kids were there in the clan, but he at least knew that there were SOME kids. Even after that he appreciated Itachi's actions and praised him. If they had other options they would surely implement them. But they didn't. And any other thing would prolong the threat, not completely eliminate it because the Uchihas were extremely furious with the Konoha leadership. Hiruzen was the wisest among all Hokages and was also a direct student of the Hashirama and Tobirama. His decision was well examined. And about Itachi's other crimes, they weren't crimes, they were inevitable orders he had to execute.
And I don't even give a shit about Tobirama's reaction. He hated the Uchihas well and played a major role in the hateful uprising of the Uchihas.

 

[USSJ Future Trunks]

He got a complete idea about Itachi's personality and his spirit for self sacrifice from that one sentence.

there is no self sacrifice. itachi is a violent evil sociopath who horrifically tortured an innocent child

And about Itachi's other crimes, they weren't crimes, they were inevitable orders he had to execute.

so ordering sasuke to murder innocent poeple was an executive order? torturing sasuke was an order?

So what else could he have done? When you are working under someone, you have to obey their commands, no matter what type or order that is, or else you're fired. But Itachi couldn't leave Akatsuki because provide intel to Konoha was his top priority,

but he wasnt providing intel to anyone and was selfishly ensuring konohas destruction by telling no one anything. and because thats the case he has absoltuely no reason to stay. how is it that you think a spy is being useful when the damage hes doing far outweighs the benefit? who cares how much konoha knows? THE AKATSUKI HAVE NUKES. they can kill everyone EASY

katsuki had others members to provide nukes and bijuus incase he left. So leaving Akatsuki was a drawback for him and Konoha, not for them

wrong.its the best option at that point. hunting down and killing akatsukis should have been what he was doing from the start.

No, he didn't. Give me an example of his treason or ignorance

i just did. he told tsunade nothing

And "criminally negligent homicide" is not what Itachi did. He wasn't even aware of Orochimaru's plans for invasion.

he was aware oro was a homicidal unrepentent murderous mad scientist involved in numerous massacres

But, his intentions were positive.

intentions mean shit. he tortured a screaming innocent child

He didn't know anything about Orochimaru's invasion so he couldn't provide intel. Orochimaru wasn't in the Akatsuki at that time. His attack was sudden. And it wasn't necessary for him to intercede even if he had knowledge of Orochimaru's intrusion. Konoha had powerful shinobis who could deal with Orochimaru and his army.

itachi ensured orochimaru would be powerful enough to enact said attack because he had done nothing about him for several years. he allowed oro to work basically unhindered and passed up a perfect opportunity to kill him

And he did nothing at all to stop Sasuke? Then who stored his crow inside Naruto to apply Kotoamatsukami on Sasuke if he ever attacked Konoha?

temporary measure. if he enslaved sasuke to konoha then sasuke would be answering to danzo not naruto.
and this is selfish. it means that sasuke will probably have his sword INCHES from narutos face but a genjutsu is stopping him and ONLY that. meaning any other village is fair fukin game. sasuke would still be evil as shit. this is not stopping him.

Danzo was a retard and employed atrocious means to fulfill his aspirations, but he wasn't evil. He had no intention of devastating Konoha

complete lie demonstrating you know nothing about the character. he allowed pain to devastate konoha so he could further devastate it with a coup against tsunades followers. only reason he didnt rise in open rebellion is because he didnt want to do anything thatd turn the village against him.

So he had to do according to Akatsuki's whim.

but why would he answer to akatsukis whims? isnt his loyalty to peace and love and protection of the world? oh right hes stupid and selfish.

? Who told the truth to Sasuke when he was informed that Sasuke's aim was to destroy Konoha?

obito and danzo

Who entrusted Naruto with the responsibilities of protecting Sasuke and Konoha?

no one because he was fukin already doing this

Who performed the transcription seal on Sasuke to prevent Tobi from telling him the truth about Itachi and Konoha, so that Sasuke would never think of destroying Konoha in the first place?

itachi did not think tobi knew the truth. so that wasnt his reasoning. his reasoning was that sauske is a canvas and the right manipulator can make sauske do whatever they want him to do.
so yes sasuke could be convinced to destroy konoha for any reason, hes just that volatile and broken.

No, he didn't betray anyone, especially not Konoha.

he betayed and committed treason agaisnt the entire world and condemned it to desturction

And defeating the enemies of Konoha literally meant getting fired from Akatsuki because he would definitely get noticed by Akatsuki if he did that.

and they wouldnt give a flying fuk. the ONLY concern akatsuki has is their own interests and capturing bijuus. is that not true?

He never threatened Konoha.

he committed high treason against konoha and betrayed his superiors by threatening to sell information to rival nations. if he was anyone else hed be killed for that, immediately.

He killed his parents in their full consciousness after promising to comply their final wish.

he murdered his parents in cold blood and shitted on everything that made them them. including his refusal to uphold that final wish.

You conceal the truth behind a genocide if it's unjustified
so you admit it was unjustified.

AND if you don't care about yor image to keep intact the reputation of your clan. Itachi was in the second category. He did everything possible thing he could to protect his village from villains (indirectly of course).

he did everything possible to destroy knoha and burn it to the ground by doing nothing to even slow down its enemies and lying to it constantly.
he didnt keep intact his clan's will and personality. he lied to everyone and painted around their eyes a false uchiha clan thats nothing more than running from the reality of it. who does that? oh yeah MADARA AND OBITO. they are trying to paint a false world and lie around the eyes of the world too, in order to run from the "awful truth".
who will actually CARE that uchihas were revolutionaries who died for what they believed in? no one really. in a world like this, attempted coups are dime a dozen as are massacres. there should be nothing wrong with exposing and outing danzo and hiruzen as genocidal perpetrators. he owes it to konoha to let them know who they let make decisions.
all itachi wanted was a fanciful lie so that he could pretend the uchiha clan is the uchiha clan from 20 years ago and not have to deal with the facts. again like obito, whos also runinng from facts and refusing to take responsibility.

Don't bash Itachi as if it was solely his responsibility to guard Konoha and every other person in that village was a 4 year old.

i wouldnt if he wasnt so set on taking that persona. he killed his own clan because he felt it was his duty to guard konoha against all threats. but does he after that? no. he lets suna go after they kill half the village. he lets oro go after he kills hundreds of babies. he lets sasuke go knowing hes a volatile criminal

There were other capable shinobi as well who could have done that job, so it wasn't necessary for Itachi to intervene.

how well did that turn out? oh right half the planet is dead

The best he could do was to provide information on what he could which he did very well.

wrong. its the worst thing he could do and it ensured akatsuki was more powerful than ever

anzo may be an idiot, but Hiruzen was a wise man. He was initially against the annihilation plan of the Uchiha clan but eventually resorted to it as the only viable option. Both of them were loyal citizens of Konoha though. Exposing Hiruzen and Danzo was useless. Do you really think exposing them both would suddenly mend his image in the eyes of civilians after the devastation of the Uchihas?

i didnt say that. but he owes it to his own morality and konohas morality to let them know what their leaders are capable of doig to their citizens. and how they saw fit to not let the public know themselves just to keep their own pathetic reputations intact.

And he also forbade Naruto to tell anything about that to anyone even after his death. So what does that prove?

that he knows damn well it was unjustified and if people knew, theyd hate konoha for the violence they are capable of.

Kakashi didn't know about Itachi's true motives, and just like all others, he believed him to be a criminal. Also, as Itachi predicted more and more shinobi were coming after hearing the news of Itachi and Kisame's intrusion, and Itachi wanted to avoid a fight as much as possible.

yet he didnt avoid a fight and instead sadistically tortured kakashi to cause him as much pain as possible for no reason other than itachi is pure evil and selfish

Putting Kakashi in coma was the least he could do to hinder the fight without killing anyone.

putting kakashi into a coma was the worst act of sadistic cruelty in the manga besides itachis actions regarding sasuke and he didnt even regret or apologise for such horrific brutality. putting kakashi into a coma for no reason at all cements itachi as a pointlessly cruel pain loving monster of a man. he ensured that kakashi would brutally suffer and be in agonising agony for 72 hours. the fact your trying to justify locking an innocent man in a nightmare dimension and stabbing him for 3 days nonstop proves your as delusional as the excuse he used.

Only your optimistic approach towards Itachi has blinded you. He never said to kill Kakashi

a complete lie and going against manga facts. yes he did, and he fully intended on watching kisame slaughter him

e don't know the whole truth behind ordering Kisame to kill the others. Maybe, he saw Gai coming, so he might have known Kisame's attempt would be futile. Neither you nor I can establish anything regarding this.

if he knew gai was coming why say anything at all? no. he fully intended on butchering them. because hes..you know...evil.

. Secondly, the Akatsuki members were not allowed to kill jinchuurikis. So no one was killing Naruto. That was just a warning shot for Naruto.

YES THEY WERE. their whole purpose for capturing them wasnt a plushy existence but to rip the bijuus out and kill them

And yeah, they did got cover ups, because it was beneficial for their good reputation.

and itachi has no right to decide what a good reputation is. they died for their beliefs and he should honor that like they honored him.

He had to help Akatsuki to stay in that organization

so you admit he wanted to stay i the organsiatin and help them murder everyone. no amount of intel in the world means anything if everyone is dead. staying as a spy is WORTHLESS

Firstly, Itachi never took the responsibility for anything regarding Suna. Secondly, how do you know Itachi didn't inform Suna about Diedara's invasion? Even if he did notify them, if wouldn't make a difference, because Diedara's target was Gaara, and Gaara wouldn't run away into hiding like a chicken i

gaaras no fool. with forewarning they could set a trap

Yeah, but Konoha surely would experience a loss if Itachi deserted from the Akatsuki.

konoha loses nothing if itachi defects and starts killing akatsukis

He started the worst war in history? Itachi refusing to give aid to Akatsuki wouldn't change a thing. And why always blame Itachi for everything. Were all the other ninjas in the shinobi world blind and deaf? Were they newborn babies who couldn't think on their own? Weren't they aware of Akatsuki's motives of collecting Bijuus? Why didn't they plan something to block all this?

classic itachi fan excuse. whenever i point out how he did NOTHING to help anyone except himself, the comeback is "well hes not strong enough to do everything for them".
but itachi believed he was. he did believe he cold do everything alone and not get help from others. his selfishness meant he refused to warn the world about the enemy, and refused to help the nations against akatsuki.

How can you say that Itachi didn't suggest any better way to stop the murder. There wasn't any better way to stop the genocide

thats danzos logic. he wanted there to be no other way when there was. itachi just took danzos word for it that theres no other way to resolve it.

Younger Uchiha's could end up becoming like Sasuke so disposing of them might seem necessary

the reaso sasuke became sasuke is the years of torture and manipilation by itachi

bito was also involved in that so it isn't necessary that they were killed by Itachi's hands. Itachi had no power over Obito so he couldn't afford a combat with him.

if he cant beat obito then whats the point of the deal if obito can renege on it at any time and itachi cant stop him?
he let obito into the vilage which really does put everyone in danger

How can you blame Itachi for everything Obito did? If you work in an organization, and the boss of that organization decides to murder someone ALL ON HIS OWN, how can you blame every person in that organization for that? That is pretty stupid to think like that.

guilty by association. itachi knwos damn well he cant convince them to stop, or do anything meaningful to hinder them as a spy. meaning his decision to be said spy is stupid.and itachi was present when they were sealing the jins.

What a ridiculous comparison! The Uchiha clan wasn't Itachi's foe.

LOL THEN WHY ARE THEY DEAD

And that genocide deal was not selfish. It was one of the hardest decisions in his life. Also

selfish to not expose the fuks responsible just to keep their worthless asses in power.

Also, can you suggest ways in which Itachi could prevent the incident in Suna? Can you also suggest ways in which Itachi could prevent the killing of those 6 jinchuurikis? He had no power to stop all that.

its the fact he didnt even try, and by being a worthless "spy" he was forced to participate rather than attempt to sabotage or hinder the attacks from the outside. if itachi had a network of allies on his own, he could use paper bomb traps, ambushes, suicide clones etc

You mean planning a coup d'etat against your government is a right thing to do when it involves huge bloodshed as in the Uchihas' case?

yes if the government is corrupt. how come your demonising uchihas and not the hundreds of real life coups against corrupt imperialistic ass holes?

But he did not "completely admit" the wrongness of his deed, because it wasn't completely wrong. He just tried to make Sasuke a strong ninja by hating him, to grow powerful and avenge their clan.

this is compeltely wrong. the clan doesnt need avenging. revenge in of itself is a selfish destructiive act thats about making yourself feel better. a hero would arrest itachi on grounds of serving justice and protecting innocents. itachi wanted sasuke to be nothing more than an ass hole who only cares about enacting personal vendettas.
and congrats, hes powerful. oh right you tortured him to insanity and now hes using that power on innocents. WHOOPSY

He did not decide Sasuke's course of gaining that power. Whatever path Sasuke chose after that is completely Sasuke's fault.

so your saying that sasuke becoming bad is his own fault, only his fault and he would still become this way even if itachi left him alone to his own devices and if there was no massacre?

. In fact, whatever Sasuke did was never contemplated by Itachi for him. He basically motivated him to obtain power

for his own selfish purposes. itachi never told him "hey you know hatred? forget it. youll never be happy if your hateful". no he MADE SURE that sasuke would go insane and power hungry. he did nothing to avert this disaster.

. Sasuke is not a puppet. He has a mind of his own. He should have realised that what I'm doing is wrong.

if sasukes not a puppet and has a mind of his own, why didnt itachi just leave him alone to his own devices? why didnt he realise there was a chance sasuke would ignore revenge and focus on insane murder sprees?

He didn't "play jury and manipulator", he just concealed their shameful truth.

that is playing jury and manipulator.
he judged them as wrong and shameful then covered it up because he wants to run from reality and hide in a lie.

. And no matter how atrocious a person is, he doesn't want to be remembered by dreadful words. Yeah, so Itachi did love them and honor them, and exactly let them be remembered how they wanted to be remembered by taking all the disgrace of their deeds on his own self.

wrong. the wanted to be known as revolutionaries who didnt take any shit from the senjus and died fighting. a symbol of rebellion and standing up against the corrupt world.
itachi painted them as weak little dogs who died because one of their own was too strong for them.
what itachi did is a disgrace. he murdered a clan, took a shit on them and tortured the survivor to madness

Sure, there was a conflict between the American colonies, but it was only a rivalry among themselves unlike the Uchiha clan who wanted to assassinate the government. They never wanted to overthrow the US government by bloodshed like the Uchihas were planning.

YES THEY DID. they tarred and burnt all the loyalist magistrates and killed off any british loyalists who stood in their way of indepedence.
just watch the patriot and listen to how they justify war. they went to the king and pleaded for him to treat them better and the king didnt care. their beliefs dictated overthrowing the legitimate government and putting their own in place under washington.

Itachi EXACTLY honored them as they wanted. And the real problem wasn't that Uchihas wanted to overthrow the government. The real problem was that they decided to do all this by COUP D'ETAT.

i wasnt aware there was another way to overthrow someone. as i said, if the hundreds of coups against imperialist colonials can be overlooked by you, then why demonise uchihas for daring to stand up against corruption and greed. their beliefs dictated launching off a war to get rid of incompetant corrupt fools. for their family and for konoha.

Uchiha's indignation against their government was so robust, that their was no other way aside from the resignation of Konoha's leadership. And Konoha's leadership would never give the government in Uchiha's hands especially when the Uchiha clan's image was unacceptable in the society and the citizens of Konoha would never accept anything like that.

they should have tried everything if they truly did not want a war. including just letting uchihas have a shot at running things their way.
keeping your paws on power
or
a world war..
.hmm decisions...

The whole genocide never gave any clue about Uchihas being submissive Senju dogs. In fact, the entire picture the outside world got of that incident was that "an evil murderer decided to destroy his clan for his own advantage". So Itachi ruined his own image to maintain the honor of the Uchiha clan and obscure their actions.

the fake honor given its a lie. as i said things like this happen all the time. the uchihas are dead so no harm at all could come of letting people know exactly how and why they would try to rebel.
possibly this would even encourage other clans to petition to be rid of the 3 elders.
which is a GOOD THING.
this wasnt uchiha clan vs everryone. it was meant to be uchiha clan vs hokage and his advisors. and if they listened to the full story, how could they condemn uchihas as nothing more than psychopath scumbags?
civil wars and civil conflict happen all the time. its only when its for pure power and fun of it that the perpetrator is forever looked upon as a disgraced criminal. kinkaku, orochimaru, madara. those examples are the ones that are condemned by history because people know the story, but still conclude the perpetrators were motivated only by fun and greed. but NOT UCHIHAS. they wanted independence and had no malice towards anyone. they moved to the plan with grudging regret and sorrow at it coming to this.
much like the colonials of america.
so why was it so fukin hard for itachi to just TELL PEOPLE THIS.
if they were child torturing crazy psychopaths, ok. maybe itd be a good idea to hide that from the people at large.
but revolutionaries who believed in their cause?

Could you suggest a few plausible alternatives?

kill the ringleaders then use a show of force to force surrender for the rest.
or
surrender themselves and unconditionally allow fugaku to take power bloodlessly. better than a war id say.

here is no need to bring Darth Vader into the mix as a means of comparison and relativity. I'm not going to prolong this already enormous essay explaining the difference between their circumstances. Plus, another quarrel regarding Star Wars will initiate.

wrong. hes relevant. answer the question. do you think vader would be a hero if he killed every last rebel before the civil war starts in earnest, and just that. just the killing.

Come on, now don't start bashing Danzo. He may be an a**hole, but he never took "innocent" lives

so you think no one innocent died when danzo was doing all his bullshit? like plotting with hanzo to assasinate akatsuki? you think every akatsuki was a scumbag who deserved it?
how about all the kids he brainwashed into root and then ordered on assasination missions.

And the government wasn't corrupt. None of Konoha's Hokages was ever a nefarious person including Hiruzen.

you have a strange definition of corrupt then. as we know from hiruzen, the hokage isnt always the big boss with unquestionable orders.

So, it wasn't really their fault. They just took protective measures against the Uchiha clan. So eliminating the clan was the right decision, though it MAY not be the most sensible decision.

wrong. protective meausres would be first arresting who you suspect to being the ringleader and then arresting his co conspirators. protective measurs would be at the very most, culling the uchiha numbers and taking out every ringleader. thats how any war leader would stop a rival faction

What? Itachi spent his life following orders from others which were against his will.

wrong. he spent his life ignoring orders and doing what he wants to do

He didn't murder his parents pointlessly. It was done for definite reasons. He loved and respected his parents and their will, though he wasn't able to completely fulfill their final wish, but he sure intended to do so.

he hated and despised his parents and brutally butchered them for a flimsy bullshit reason when he easily could ahve saved them. you dont murder someoen you love and respect. you dont shove a sword in your mother.
it was done to keep corrupt ass holes in power

But his wrong decisions and miscalculated actions don't make Itachi a ruthless and hateful brother.

correct. his brutal insanity, sociopathy and cruel sadism makes him ruthless and hateful. the fact he completelt destroyed sasukes sanity and condemned him to a life of darkness hatred and despair makes him ruthless and evil

. Even after that he appreciated Itachi's actions and praised him

wrong. he didnt know about itachis actions enough to make that kind of claim. hashi would be horrified at itachis full crimes if he saw them.

If they had other options they would surely implement them.

wrong. they had other options but ignored them in favour of mass murder

Hiruzen was the wisest among all Hokages

wrong. he was a colossally braindead weak willed idiot.

 

[The Demon Hawk]

there is no self sacrifice. itachi is a violent evil sociopath who horrifically tortured an innocent child

Just your biased opinion...

so ordering sasuke to murder innocent poeple was an executive order? torturing sasuke was an order?

Following orders doesn't mean being a complete programmed robot. Aside from the given orders, whatever Itachi did was of his own accord whether it be a misapplication or calculated action. And he didn't order Sasuke to kill anyone. He just acquainted the process of obtaining the MS to Sasuke. So that wasn't a "murdering order".

but he wasnt providing intel to anyone and was selfishly ensuring konohas destruction by telling no one anything. and because thats the case he has absoltuely no reason to stay. how is it that you think a spy is being useful when the damage hes doing far outweighs the benefit? who cares how much konoha knows? THE AKATSUKI HAVE NUKES. they can kill everyone EASY

If you want to, you can say that he didn't care about Konoha due to his actions (though I do not agree with that). But, don't say he was "ensuring Konoha's destruction". Otherwise, he would have taken an active role in Konoha's antagonism.
@bold The damage you are referring to was done by Akatsuki, not Itachi. For example, the Smith's family murder the Johnson's family. But one person in the Smiths was not involved. So can you also accuse him for murder especially when he does not have the power to stand up against the rest of his family members? The least he could do is inform them about the upcoming danger. Just like Itachi did.
@underlined Whatever. That's what he was capable of doing.
@italic So what could Itachi do about that?

wrong.its the best option at that point. hunting down and killing akatsukis should have been what he was doing from the start.

Akatsuki members are not genins. They are top of the line S-class criminals. Killing them is not a task that is within the clutches of Itachi. And killing only one Akatsuki member would have made the entire Akatsuki attentive. They would go after him and they wouldn't let Itachi escape so easily.

i just did. he told tsunade nothing

He must have. What do you know? BTW, do you think The Legendary Sannin knew about the Uchiha incident?

he was aware oro was a homicidal unrepentent murderous mad scientist involved in numerous massacres

Yeah, that does not mean he also knew about his intentions.

intentions mean shit. he tortured a screaming innocent child

I can only contempt you if you think that way.

itachi ensured orochimaru would be powerful enough to enact said attack because he had done nothing about him for several years. he allowed oro to work basically unhindered and passed up a perfect opportunity to kill him

Itachi didn't ensure anything.
@bold He was undercover. Killing him would blow his cover.

temporary measure. if he enslaved sasuke to konoha then sasuke would be answering to danzo not naruto.
and this is selfish. it means that sasuke will probably have his sword INCHES from narutos face but a genjutsu is stopping him and ONLY that. meaning any other village is fair fukin game. sasuke would still be evil as shit. this is not stopping him.

He didn't make him go rogue as I already told you. That was Sasuke's own pact. Judging by your statement, I think you probably don't know about Kotoamatsukami. If Sasuke falls victim of Kotoamatsukami, he is literally mind controlled to protect Konoha. So whole village is at safety. I already said Itachi couldn't stop him as things went to far from his restraint. He could only ensure Konoha's safety after that.

complete lie demonstrating you know nothing about the character. he allowed pain to devastate konoha so he could further devastate it with a coup against tsunades followers. only reason he didnt rise in open rebellion is because he didnt want to do anything thatd turn the village against him.

Wasn't Itachi dead before Pain devastated Konoha?
@bold The village was already against him.

but why would he answer to akatsukis whims? isnt his loyalty to peace and love and protection of the world? oh right hes stupid and selfish.

Because he had to stay in Akatsuki to report about them. And doing anything against the Akatsuki was pure stupidity as Akatsuki wasn't on a shortage of elite criminals. And what should he do after leaving Akatsuki? Go back to Konoha and they would accept him happily?

obito and danzo

Yeah, they ALSO.

no one because he was fukin already doing this

Entrusting isn't the same as ordering.

itachi did not think tobi knew the truth. so that wasnt his reasoning. his reasoning was that sauske is a canvas and the right manipulator can make sauske do whatever they want him to do.
so yes sasuke could be convinced to destroy konoha for any reason, hes just that volatile and broken.

How can Itachi not know Tobi knew the truth when he was involved in the massacre?

he betayed and committed treason agaisnt the entire world and condemned it to desturction

No, he didn't.

and they wouldnt give a flying fuk. the ONLY concern akatsuki has is their own interests and capturing bijuus. is that not true?

No, they would hunt Itachi and kill him as a cost of betrayal.

he committed high treason against konoha and betrayed his superiors by threatening to sell information to rival nations. if he was anyone else hed be killed for that, immediately.

Not THEIR information. Only the truth about Danzo regarding his case.

he murdered his parents in cold blood and shitted on everything that made them them. including his refusal to uphold that final wish.

He respected his parents and didn't condemn their final wish. He just did that the wrong way. And murdering them is something I didn't understand as well...

You conceal the truth behind a genocide if it's unjustified
so you admit it was unjustified.

No...

he did everything possible to destroy knoha and burn it to the ground by doing nothing to even slow down its enemies and lying to it constantly.

I already said, you can say "He didn't give a shit about what happens to Konoha" but not "he did everything possible to destroy Konoha" because joining Akatsuki, storing the crow inside Naruto and preventing Obito to reveal the truth to Sasuke is the exact opposite of that claim.

he didnt keep intact his clan's will and personality. he lied to everyone and painted around their eyes a false uchiha clan thats nothing more than running from the reality of it. who does that? oh yeah MADARA AND OBITO. they are trying to paint a false world and lie around the eyes of the world too, in order to run from the "awful truth".
who will actually CARE that uchihas were revolutionaries who died for what they believed in? no one really. in a world like this, attempted coups are dime a dozen as are massacres. there should be nothing wrong with exposing and outing danzo and hiruzen as genocidal perpetrators. he owes it to konoha to let them know who they let make decisions.
all itachi wanted was a fanciful lie so that he could pretend the uchiha clan is the uchiha clan from 20 years ago and not have to deal with the facts. again like obito, whos also runinng from facts and refusing to take responsibility.

@bold Exactly. Because it would be embarrassing. He wanted people to remember Uchiha clan by commendable words.
@underlined Everybody will... And a war will start.

i wouldnt if he wasnt so set on taking that persona. he killed his own clan because he felt it was his duty to guard konoha against all threats. but does he after that? no. he lets suna go after they kill half the village. he lets oro go after he kills hundreds of babies. he lets sasuke go knowing hes a volatile criminal

Yeah, he keeps ensuring Konoha's protection. What you want Itachi to do was out of Itachi's authority.

how well did that turn out? oh right half the planet is dead

Not his fault if every other shinobi is so worthless. He did what he could do?

wrong. its the worst thing he could do and it ensured akatsuki was more powerful than ever

No, he didn't.

i didnt say that. but he owes it to his own morality and konohas morality to let them know what their leaders are capable of doig to their citizens. and how they saw fit to not let the public know themselves just to keep their own pathetic reputations intact.

The villagers know what kind of a leader Hiruzen is. And Tobirama wasn't an idiot to elect Hiruzen as Hokage. Whatever kind of a person Tobirama is, he is a patriot of Konoha.

that he knows damn well it was unjustified and if people knew, theyd hate konoha for the violence they are capable of.

Yeah, maybe. So then people would start protesting against the government (which cares about the village) and the village would be disintegrated which is not Itachi wanted.

yet he didnt avoid a fight and instead sadistically tortured kakashi to cause him as much pain as possible for no reason other than itachi is pure evil and selfish

putting kakashi into a coma was the worst act of sadistic cruelty in the manga besides itachis actions regarding sasuke and he didnt even regret or apologise for such horrific brutality. putting kakashi into a coma for no reason at all cements itachi as a pointlessly cruel pain loving monster of a man. he ensured that kakashi would brutally suffer and be in agonising agony for 72 hours. the fact your trying to justify locking an innocent man in a nightmare dimension and stabbing him for 3 days nonstop proves your as delusional as the excuse he used.

If a fight would have taken place, deaths were sure to occur. To avoid any death, Itachi put Kakashi in coma. And how could he apologize? If apologizing were possible, he wouldn't have done it in the first place.
@bold I already told you the reason for that.

a complete lie and going against manga facts. yes he did, and he fully intended on watching kisame slaughter him
if he knew gai was coming why say anything at all? no. he fully intended on butchering them. because hes..you know...evil.

@bold To pretend to be with them.

YES THEY WERE. their whole purpose for capturing them wasnt a plushy existence but to rip the bijuus out and kill them

Actually more like "rip out the Bijuus and inevitably kill them". Ripping out the Bijuus will kill the jinchuuriki without Akatsuki actually wanting to kill him/her. What I meant was Kisame had no intention of slicing of Naruto's legs, because doing that would kill Naruto, and Akatsuki members weren't allowed to kill jinchuurikis before the bijuu extraction.

and itachi has no right to decide what a good reputation is. they died for their beliefs and he should honor that like they honored him.

So have you no right to decide a "good person" when Kishi openly stated Itachi as an exceptional and positive person. BTW, that "good reputation" Itachi sought for his clan was not his own perception, but the entire village would have seen it that way.

so you admit he wanted to stay i the organsiatin and help them murder everyone. no amount of intel in the world means anything if everyone is dead. staying as a spy is WORTHLESS

Not help them murder everyone, but do not act as a barrier in them murdering everyone. Because he did not have the power to stop them. So if being a spy is worthless then also not being a spy is worthless. Look what others have accomplished by staying out of the Akatsuki. What hindrance was there by anyone else in the dawn of a new world war? Means everybody in the NV is worthless?

gaaras no fool. with forewarning they could set a trap

The Akatsuki members don't fell for traps. When an Akatsuki member intends to battle, no minor or major trap will be of any significance. You have to undertake a full battle. BTW, setting a trap wasn't going to ward off Gaara's death. It would only prolong it.

konoha loses nothing if itachi defects and starts killing akatsukis

Konoha is in a considerable loss if Itachi defects (but you wouldn't accept that anyway). Also if Konoha loses nothing, they also gain nothing, and Akatsuki also lose nothing. Itachi kills one Akatsuki member (as he is capable of taking on only one member). Akatsuki doesn't give a shit and order the order members to slay Itachi for betraying them. So how much have we accomplished here?

classic itachi fan excuse. whenever i point out how he did NOTHING to help anyone except himself, the comeback is "well hes not strong enough to do everything for them".

Actually, that is the truth. Instead of labeling this as "classic itachi fan excuse", why don't you just answer the questions? Why didn't anyone else do anything to be of hindrance in the beginning of a world war when they weren't even bound by the organization or orders?

but itachi believed he was. he did believe he cold do everything alone and not get help from others. his selfishness meant he refused to warn the world about the enemy, and refused to help the nations against akatsuki.

That's what you think? Well, I don't...

thats danzos logic. he wanted there to be no other way when there was. itachi just took danzos word for it that theres no other way to resolve it.

I'm saying he didn't have any other choice except committing the murder to satisfy Konoha's government, Konoha's people AND Obito...

the reaso sasuke became sasuke is the years of torture and manipilation by itachi

Really, no... Itachi just made Sasuke feel weak to aspire to power to kill him.

if he cant beat obito then whats the point of the deal if obito can renege on it at any time and itachi cant stop him?
he let obito into the vilage which really does put everyone in danger

He didn't LET Obito into the village. He found Obito in the village and after he learned about his intentions, he decided to slaughter his clan in return for Obito to spare the village.

guilty by association. itachi knwos damn well he cant convince them to stop, or do anything meaningful to hinder them as a spy. meaning his decision to be said spy is stupid.and itachi was present when they were sealing the jins.

No, not guilty by association. Controlling Yagura was Obito's personal move, it had nothing to do with the entire Akatsuki.

LOL THEN WHY ARE THEY DEAD

I already told you. Don't act dumb.

selfish to not expose the fuks responsible just to keep their worthless asses in power.

If you consider Hiruzen worthless, then it can't be helped. He was initially against the massacre, you know.

its the fact he didnt even try, and by being a worthless "spy" he was forced to participate rather than attempt to sabotage or hinder the attacks from the outside. if itachi had a network of allies on his own, he could use paper bomb traps, ambushes, suicide clones etc

I don't think a "spy" has any other responsibility than that. You don't sabotage or hinder attacks as a spy. Being a spy means being perfectly concealed from your boss and leak out information. Kabuto was also a spy on Akatsuki. What did he do?
And why try, when you know you can't do it. Just to make Akatsuki vigilant. That would be stupid.

yes if the government is corrupt. how come your demonising uchihas and not the hundreds of real life coups against corrupt imperialistic ass holes?

The government being corrupt is just your opinion, which really doesn't matter. I'm not saying that the genocide was a virtuous deed. It was only the best option to prevent an even bigger bloodshed. Which was good, but not really decent.

this is compeltely wrong. the clan doesnt need avenging. revenge in of itself is a selfish destructiive act thats about making yourself feel better. a hero would arrest itachi on grounds of serving justice and protecting innocents. itachi wanted sasuke to be nothing more than an ass hole who only cares about enacting personal vendettas.
and congrats, hes powerful. oh right you tortured him to insanity and now hes using that power on innocents. WHOOPSY

He tortured Sasuke physically only two days in counting. And with Tsukuyomi he just deviated his thinking. Not mindrape him. So you are just exaggerating the torture.

so your saying that sasuke becoming bad is his own fault, only his fault and he would still become this way even if itachi left him alone to his own devices and if there was no massacre?

Itachi didn't commit the massacre to pave a life path for Sasuke. He developed this idea after the massacre. And Sasuke's hatred for Itachi wasn't going to change.

for his own selfish purposes. itachi never told him "hey you know hatred? forget it. youll never be happy if your hateful". no he MADE SURE that sasuke would go insane and power hungry. he did nothing to avert this disaster.

Yeah, that was quite foolish of Itachi to think that way, as a person powered by hate can never become happy and respected. But I'm not going to derogate him because he accepted his mistake.

if sasukes not a puppet and has a mind of his own, why didnt itachi just leave him alone to his own devices? why didnt he realise there was a chance sasuke would ignore revenge and focus on insane murder sprees?

He just motivated him. Come on now, your parents (or elder siblings) decide and wish things for you. They motivate you by certain ways, that doesn't mean you are a brainless idiot.

that is playing jury and manipulator.
he judged them as wrong and shameful then covered it up because he wants to run from reality and hide in a lie.

No matter he judged them that way. Any normal person would have judged them similarly. Itachi just wanted to prevent negative thoughts about the Uchiha clan provoking in people's minds.

wrong. the wanted to be known as revolutionaries who didnt take any shit from the senjus and died fighting. a symbol of rebellion and standing up against the corrupt world.
itachi painted them as weak little dogs who died because one of their own was too strong for them.
what itachi did is a disgrace. he murdered a clan, took a shit on them and tortured the survivor to madness

Things weren't going to work out as THEY wanted. Anybody would think of the Uchiha clan as a corrupt murderous clan if they committed the coup d'etat. That's not up to the Uchihas how people will think of them. Itachi painted them to protect their image. That's all.

YES THEY DID. they tarred and burnt all the loyalist magistrates and killed off any british loyalists who stood in their way of indepedence.

That doesn't mean a coup d'etat.

just watch the patriot and listen to how they justify war. they went to the king and pleaded for him to treat them better and the king didnt care. their beliefs dictated overthrowing the legitimate government and putting their own in place under washington.

Don't care about patriotism. Just go for facts. If they resemble, then just accept it.

i wasnt aware there was another way to overthrow someone. as i said, if the hundreds of coups against imperialist colonials can be overlooked by you, then why demonise uchihas for daring to stand up against corruption and greed. their beliefs dictated launching off a war to get rid of incompetant corrupt fools. for their family and for konoha.

In a democratic system of government, as in Konoha's case, there are several ways to overthrow the current government. Basically, you can just remove them from authority by adopting different means and gain control. That doesn't need any slaying. What the Uchihas had wasn't just an inferiority complex due to which they tried to gain power, it was intense hatred against the Senju influenced government. You can just ruin the image of the government by exposing various shameful truths about them and, if you think they are corrupt, you can just unveil that in front of people, so that the can protest on your behalf. If the government is really corrupt, then expelling them from power jurisdiction isn't too difficult.
@bold That isn't the most decent or commendable way of doing things
@underlined Only for their family, not for Konoha. They really didn't have a pleasant attitude towards other clans of Konoha, and the citizens of Konoha didn't want anything like that. So they would basically be dictators.

they should have tried everything if they truly did not want a war. including just letting uchihas have a shot at running things their way.
keeping your paws on power
or
a world war..
.hmm decisions...

Its not what they want or not. A war was certain to become apparent if the Uchihas were allowed to do something like that.
@bold Already told ya, no way the Konoha citizens would accept the Uchihas as their head.

the fake honor given its a lie. as i said things like this happen all the time. the uchihas are dead so no harm at all could come of letting people know exactly how and why they would try to rebel.

Right... But still unveiling the embarrassing truth about the Uchihas was not in their favor even after death. You don't want to hear disrespectful words regarding your family even after they are no more.

possibly this would even encourage other clans to petition to be rid of the 3 elders.
which is a GOOD THING.

Why would they? Did they have any problems with the 3 elders?

this wasnt uchiha clan vs everryone. it was meant to be uchiha clan vs hokage and his advisors. and if they listened to the full story, how could they condemn uchihas as nothing more than psychopath scumbags?

Actually, no one really gave any complimentary remarks about the Uchihas. They were not only suspicious by the government, no other clan in Konoha really trusted the Uchihas. And that's how their hatred for very other clan emerged. The whole reason for the murder isn't as simple and straightforward as you think. I would appreciate if you had a little wider perspective.

civil wars and civil conflict happen all the time. its only when its for pure power and fun of it that the perpetrator is forever looked upon as a disgraced criminal. kinkaku, orochimaru, madara. those examples are the ones that are condemned by history because people know the story, but still conclude the perpetrators were motivated only by fun and greed. but NOT UCHIHAS. they wanted independence and had no malice towards anyone. they moved to the plan with grudging regret and sorrow at it coming to this.
much like the colonials of america.

Independence is fine, but you should have better ways for doing so. You could turn people on your side i.e. against the government. Then mend your image in front of people so that you are eligible for authorization. Do it the right way, democratically. But they had excessive hate towards everyone, how could they do that.
@bold Disagree completely.

so why was it so fukin hard for itachi to just TELL PEOPLE THIS.
if they were child torturing crazy psychopaths, ok. maybe itd be a good idea to hide that from the people at large.
but revolutionaries who believed in their cause?

Actually, its not just limited to that. Disclosing the truth about the Uchiha incident would inevitably expose their hatred towards everyone. Everything regarding the massacre happened after diligent planning and broad context of ideas.

kill the ringleaders then use a show of force to force surrender for the rest.

That would be absolutely ludicrous. That literally means yearning for getting your ass kicked. Killing the ringleaders, sprouting their hate and flourishing their anger, without even suppressing their entire power. Look what Hanzo accomplished by opting for the ringleaders, a sheer imminent threat, Akatsuki, now more powerful than ever. Plus, that method would only prolong their attempt, it wouldn't obliterate their hate and lust for revenge. Once they get a chance, you are done for it.

or
surrender themselves and unconditionally allow fugaku to take power bloodlessly. better than a war id say.

Neither they themselves nor Konoha citizens would welcome any idea like that. A democratic system is powered by the will of people.

wrong. hes relevant. answer the question. do you think vader would be a hero if he killed every last rebel before the civil war starts in earnest, and just that. just the killing.

He would be hailed as a hero either way.

so you think no one innocent died when danzo was doing all his bullshit? like plotting with hanzo to assasinate akatsuki? you think every akatsuki was a scumbag who deserved it?

He was just opting for the ringleaders, not every member.

how about all the kids he brainwashed into root and then ordered on assasination missions.

You're right on that. That was a vulgar way of converting humans into puppets. That sure makes Danzo a savage, but not evil if you know what I mean.

you have a strange definition of corrupt then. as we know from hiruzen, the hokage isnt always the big boss with unquestionable orders.

You don't know anything about Hiruzen then.

wrong. protective meausres would be first arresting who you suspect to being the ringleader and then arresting his co conspirators. protective measurs would be at the very most, culling the uchiha numbers and taking out every ringleader. thats how any war leader would stop a rival faction

The Uchiha clan's bitterness towards the government wasn't limited to the ringleaders, every member despised and hated them, and were boundlessly passionate to eradicate them. That method would just enrage them and surge their hatred, sure only prolonging the coup d'etat, not complete elimination. Killing the ringleaders will not erase the gripe from the Uchiha's hearts.

wrong. he spent his life ignoring orders and doing what he wants to do

You are outstripping the peak of ignorance.

he hated and despised his parents and brutally butchered them for a flimsy bullshit reason when he easily could ahve saved them. you dont murder someoen you love and respect. you dont shove a sword in your mother.
it was done to keep corrupt ass holes in power

Yeah, he COULD have saved them, but since the absolute truth is not brought to light, I cannot establish any resolute remark.

correct. his brutal insanity, sociopathy and cruel sadism makes him ruthless and hateful. the fact he completelt destroyed sasukes sanity and condemned him to a life of darkness hatred and despair makes him ruthless and evil

Being evil is determined by intentions. Not actions. Danzo was a ruthless vicious and brutal person, but not evil. He employed atrocious means to execute what he thought was best for Konoha.

wrong. he didnt know about itachis actions enough to make that kind of claim. hashi would be horrified at itachis full crimes if he saw them.

Even if he did, he would still praise Itachi. Because he can understand situation and comprehend with Itachi, unlike you. Plus, he had a realistic perspective.

wrong. they had other options but ignored them in favour of mass murder

No, they didn't. Any recommendations from you would be contemptuous.

wrong. he was a colossally braindead weak willed idiot.

How despicable of you.

Why don't you reply to every noteworthy comment in my post, and just the one's you like?