Would the Rasenshruiken have been enough to beat a Living Sandaime Raikage?

[Piratefish]

I guess my opinion is in the minority, but I think it was made explicit that the Rasenshuriken didn't really hurt the Raikage's body. After all, his durability is intrinsic to his body itself, not his lightning armor. The armor naturally dispersed with the powerful wind ninjutsu, but his body remained unharmed. Remember, he's a man that could go head to head with the Eight Tails without getting a scratch—up until he scratched himself, that is.

Thing is, the Rasenshruiken (at least the incomplete version, and as Sage Mode wasn't involved this seems like it's incomplete) doesn't cause any exterior damage. It destroys chakra connections between cells. There was smoke rising from the body and it took a moment for him to reconstitute the armor (he didn't form it in order to cut the Sealing Cloth) and, of course, the Rasenshruiken has aquitted itself even against the KYUUBI:

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So, as cell-damage seems, at least to me, one area in which the Edo's are capable of near-instant regeneration, I don't see why him being "crippled" by the Rasenshruiken is at all illogical.

Looks like people underrestimate the Third's body, his body and blood was steal so such attacks are too weak. In order to defeat him he have to be stabben by himself, for example like Naruto did to him (which was stupid)

The attack proven capable of harming him, Hell Stab, was effective against the Hachibi. The Rasenshruiken was effective against the Kyuubi. Seems to me like it could take the Raikage.

 

[Piratefish]

No, I didn't see any healing done when he was hit by it unlike Tamari's wind net jutsu.

You wouldn't even if it hit Tonton, the incomplete Rasenshruiken doesn't cause exterior damage.

PS: Like the sig, at least when it comes to this subject.

 

[koolsmooch]

It would have destroyed him i mean laiton is weak to futton maybe two would do it one to break the armour the other one to his normal body he just survived cos hes an edo tensei. Think about it if ur cells are messed up how will u have strong durability

 

[Omnipotent]

The Living Sandaime Raikage wouldn't have let that happen (excuses)

 

[Piratefish]

The Living Sandaime Raikage wouldn't have let that happen (excuses)

He DID...

Gotta try harder'n that...

 

[TheSages456]

um no the 3rd wouldve just got up and activated his raiton armor again. the manga made it painfully clear that the 3rd tanked rasenshuriken due to his durable body and not edo.

 

[TurrinB]

It would have injured him but not killed him. Several FRS would have been enough.

 

[u wanna die]

if his not edo... then game over

 

[Piratefish]

um no the 3rd wouldve just got up and activated his raiton armor again. the manga made it painfully clear that the 3rd tanked rasenshuriken due to his durable body and not edo.

Does a durable body make it PAINFULLY clear that your cells' chakra-connectors are IMMUNE to MICROSCOPIC BLADES?

 

[Expulso]

Rasenshuriken would do any kind of damage to the enemy no matter how small.

 

[Piratefish]

Rasenshuriken would do any kind of damage to the enemy no matter how small.

It would do damage to any kind of enemy?

It would not do any kind of damage to the enemy?

I'm not quite clear on what you mean...

 

[Horus]

Yeah the rasengan would kill him. but you were saying that it would kill tsunade, well if she isnt in her mitotic regeneration mode or byakogou then it will kill her but if she is in it then it wont kill her although it would dissipate her chakra levels, but she heals on a cellular level so her chakra would just cover the damage, as she said before, she cannot die in battle

 

[Piratefish]

Yeah the rasengan would kill him. but you were saying that it would kill tsunade, well if she isnt in her mitotic regeneration mode or byakogou then it will kill her but if she is in it then it wont kill her although it would dissipate her chakra levels, but she heals on a cellular level so her chakra would just cover the damage, as she said before, she cannot die in battle

I wasn't actually saying that it would kill Tsunade (though it seems POSSIBLE, would Byakugou still function with the chakra-connections between cells destroyed?) rather that it would take a LONG time for even Tsunade to heal the damage done to the body on SOMEONE ELSE. Which is why she was so worried about Naruto after him using the Rasenshruiken for the first time; she didn't know if she could heal the damage done to his arm.

It seems like she IS about to die in battle, but I get your point.

 

[Icelerate]

Lol why did this thread go from whether the 3rd Raikage can survive the FRS to can Tsunade do so? Tsunade obviously can not because she regenerates from physical damage through cellular growth but if FRS destroys Tsunade's cells, there will be no cellular growth so Tsunade can't heal.

As for the 3rd Raikage, his body is made out of an extremely dense metal which already proved its effectiveness in defending his hard iron cells from the tiny microscopic blades of wind in the FRS. People need to realize what type of jutsu FRS is and that it isn't busting a dense defence since while the attack is very powerful, it doesn't deal as much physical damage because the tiny blades of wind attack at a very small scale.

Also the title of the chapter wouldn't be "The Rasenshuriken's Limit" if the Rasenshuriken was effective. The 3rd Raikage wasn't even fazed by the attack and being an edo doesn't actually boost your defence. If you are telling me that the 3rd had taken cellular damage, he would have gone down and would have been easily sealed by the sealing team.

Don't compare Kakuzu's doton domu to the 3rd Raikage's body.

 

[Piratefish]

Lol why did this thread go from whether the 3rd Raikage can survive the FRS to can Tsunade do so? Tsunade obviously can not because she regenerates from physical damage through cellular growth but if FRS destroys Tsunade's cells, there will be no cellular growth so Tsunade can't heal.

No idea.

As for the 3rd Raikage, his body is made out of an extremely dense metal which already proved its effectiveness in defending his hard iron cells from the tiny microscopic blades of wind in the FRS. People need to realize what type of jutsu FRS is and that it isn't busting a dense defence since while the attack is very powerful, it doesn't deal as much physical damage because the tiny blades of wind attack at a very small scale.

His body isn't ACTUALLY metal, just comparable to it. The actual cells aren't the targets of the attack either, but instead the frail chakra-couplings between them. In my view, the numberless blades of the Rasenshruiken should be able to cause crippling damage to the outer layer of the Raikage at the very least, which would prevent him from expelling chakra. Supported by the stuff I'll mention next.

Also the title of the chapter wouldn't be "The Rasenshuriken's Limit" if the Rasenshuriken was effective. The 3rd Raikage wasn't even fazed by the attack and being an edo doesn't actually boost your defence. If you are telling me that the 3rd had taken cellular damage, he would have gone down and would have been easily sealed by the sealing team.

The Rasenshruiken DIDN't actually help them seal the Raikage, so it still fits. About the actual impact, well, the Armor was inargueably nullified. Smoke was rising from his body, implying the Rasenshruiken had SOME effect. I never said being an Edo boosted one's defense, but rather that small-scale damage (like from the Rasenshruiken) seems like it would be healed instantly or nearly so. The Sealing team was actually stopped from their sealing by Raikage in BASE, again implying that he wasn't able to use his Armor at that point.

Don't compare Kakuzu's doton domu to the 3rd Raikage's body.

Why not? Domu was stated to be as hard as diamond, and the Third's body to iron. If anything, the Third suffers by comparison.

 

[Icelerate]

His body isn't ACTUALLY metal, just comparable to it. The actual cells aren't the targets of the attack either, but instead the frail chakra-couplings between them. In my view, the numberless blades of the Rasenshruiken should be able to cause crippling damage to the outer layer of the Raikage at the very least, which would prevent him from expelling chakra. Supported by the stuff I'll mention next.

It doesn't matter how many tiny wind blades there are since no matter how many, they won't have an effect in slicing metal due to there tininess which means less power. I disagree and I use this analogy to describe what I think: flinging thousands of pebbles against a fence will be just as ineffective as flinging one pebble.

The Rasenshruiken DIDN't actually help them seal the Raikage, so it still fits. About the actual impact, well, the Armor was inargueably nullified. Smoke was rising from his body, implying the Rasenshruiken had SOME effect. I never said being an Edo boosted one's defense, but rather that small-scale damage (like from the Rasenshruiken) seems like it would be healed instantly or nearly so. The Sealing team was actually stopped from their sealing by Raikage in BASE, again implying that he wasn't able to use his Armor at that point.

No the smoke was just dirt from the ground mixed in with the air just like whenever a wind user uses there attack, there seems to be quite a bit of dust/smoke depending on the wind attack. Wind has the tendency to blow those small dust particles to create a smoke like effect. The 3rd Raikage lost his raiton armour momentarily because the FRS cancelled it out but it didn't do much if anything at all against the 3rd Raikage's insides because he was protected by the outer layer of his dense skin.

Why not? Domu was stated to be as hard as diamond, and the Third's body to iron. If anything, the Third suffers by comparison.

Domu wasn't hyped to be super invincible unlike the 3rd Raikage throughout the manga.

I do there are some attacks weaker than the FRS that would deal more damage to the 3rd Raikage compared to the rasenshuriken but I believe the rasenshuriken was a bad match up against the 3rd Raikage since his inner chakra network was competely enclosed by metal cells. I think what makes the rasenshuriken deadly against normal humans is that their skin and cells are soft, so tiny finite wind blades are going to be extremely deadly since even small damage, as long as it is very tiny, will destroy cells. However, the small but finite wind blades won't do much against metal cells since destroying metal requires much more power than what the individual wind blades in the FRS have.

 

[Piratefish]

It doesn't matter how many tiny wind blades there are since no matter how many, they won't have an effect in slicing metal due to there tininess which means less power. I disagree and I use this analogy to describe what I think: flinging thousands of pebbles against a fence will be just as ineffective as flinging one pebble.

And here's me using your analogy to prove my own point: A thousand pebbles may not DESTROY the fence, but they'll sure as hell **** up the paint job something terrible, if not cause permanent damage to the outer structure.

No the smoke was just dirt from the ground mixed in with the air just like whenever a wind user uses there attack, there seems to be quite a bit of dust/smoke depending on the wind attack. Wind has the tendency to blow those small dust particles to create a smoke like effect. The 3rd Raikage lost his raiton armour momentarily because the FRS cancelled it out but it didn't do much if anything at all against the 3rd Raikage's insides because he was protected by the outer layer of his dense skin.

It seems pretty clear to me that the smoke is originating from the Raikage's actual body; notice the smoke is coming from his arms and shoulders and NOWHERE ELSE:

Spoiler

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The sand seems pretty much unaffected (which fits, it doesn't contain chakra or cells at all) and different Wind Techniques have different effects. This one specifically target the body, not the environment.

The outer layer would have been vulnerable even if it managed to protect the rest of his body; the Raikage still has a human physiological makeup, no matter how durable he may be. This means his skin is not designed to be impenerable, his cells don't cover every possible area. EVEN if EVERY cell stopped EVERY blade with not a HINT of permanent damage, (which is unlikely, the sheer volume must have overwhelmed at least SOME cells, remember Pein's bodies, piercings and all, being VAPORIZED by the completed Rasenshruiken?) there'd STILL be significant damage to the Third's exterior SOLELY where the blades hit BETWEEN the cells.

Domu wasn't hyped to be super invincible unlike the 3rd Raikage throughout the manga.

Are you using two techniques relative levels of hype as a serious argument?

I do there are some attacks weaker than the FRS that would deal more damage to the 3rd Raikage compared to the rasenshuriken but I believe the rasenshuriken was a bad match up against the 3rd Raikage since his inner chakra network was competely enclosed by metal cells. I think what makes the rasenshuriken deadly against normal humans is that their skin and cells are soft, so tiny finite wind blades are going to be extremely deadly since even small damage, as long as it is very tiny, will destroy cells. However, the small but finite wind blades won't do much against metal cells since destroying metal requires much more power than what the individual wind blades in the FRS have.

His inner chakra network MAY be protected completely, but his tenketsu are not. Even with the network completely intact, he'd never be able to use jutsu again (like Lee). The "metal" cells require more effort to destroy (and do not appear to have been based on the Raikage's exterior) but could definitely be penetrated by the sheer amount of blades.

 

[Icelerate]

And here's me using your analogy to prove my own point: A thousand pebbles may not DESTROY the fence, but they'll sure as hell **** up the paint job something terrible, if not cause permanent damage to the outer structure.

Sure but it all depends on the strength of the pebbles and I don't see how individual blades in rasenshuriken are THAT powerful as some people make them out to be. Being tiny and countless means little power but lots of precision.

It seems pretty clear to me that the smoke is originating from the Raikage's actual body; notice the smoke is coming from his arms and shoulders and NOWHERE ELSE:

Spoiler

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The sand seems pretty much unaffected (which fits, it doesn't contain chakra or cells at all) and different Wind Techniques have different effects. This one specifically target the body, not the environment.

Okay I read the scan carefully and I think the smoke comes from the lightning armour being burnt out or the attack failing as opposed to smoke coming out of the boyd.

The outer layer would have been vulnerable even if it managed to protect the rest of his body; the Raikage still has a human physiological makeup, no matter how durable he may be. This means his skin is not designed to be impenerable, his cells don't cover every possible area. EVEN if EVERY cell stopped EVERY blade with not a HINT of permanent damage, (which is unlikely, the sheer volume must have overwhelmed at least SOME cells, remember Pein's bodies, piercings and all, being VAPORIZED by the completed Rasenshruiken?) there'd STILL be significant damage to the Third's exterior SOLELY where the blades hit BETWEEN the cells.

Pain's bodies are no where near durable as the Saindaime Raikage. His body is actually much more durable than regular metal. As for taking cellular damage, no because the Raikage's biological make up is vastly different compared to regular humans. You have no proof that the attack can even penetrate the Raikage's exterior defence let alone his interior.

Are you using two techniques relative levels of hype as a serious argument?

Of course because it is obvious that one is stronger than he other.

His inner chakra network MAY be protected completely, but his tenketsu are not. Even with the network completely intact, he'd never be able to use jutsu again (like Lee). The "metal" cells require more effort to destroy (and do not appear to have been based on the Raikage's exterior) but could definitely be penetrated by the sheer amount of blades.

Yet the chapter was titled, The rasenshuriken's Limits so even the author is trying to make a point that the attack was pretty much useless. So you are trying to say that and alive 3rd Raikage would survive but not be able to use ninjutsu any more? Tenketsu are like the circulatory system and the Raikage's veins and arteries have a metal coating or else the attack Temari used against him should have disabled him especially considering it has more of a slicing effect compared to FRS.

 

[Piratefish]

Sure but it all depends on the strength of the pebbles and I don't see how individual blades in rasenshuriken are THAT powerful as some people make them out to be. Being tiny and countless means little power but lots of precision.

They don't need to be powerful if there are enough of them... That was the point to my analogy.

Okay I read the scan carefully and I think the smoke comes from the lightning armour being burnt out or the attack failing as opposed to smoke coming out of the boyd.

It's possible, but when has the Lightning Armor been seen emitting smoke before? It doesn't *fry* anything, even when it's overpowered by, say, a Rasenshruiken.

Pain's bodies are no where near durable as the Saindaime Raikage. His body is actually much more durable than regular metal. As for taking cellular damage, no because the Raikage's biological make up is vastly different compared to regular humans. You have no proof that the attack can even penetrate the Raikage's exterior defence let alone his interior.

My point was that the piercings and chakra control rods within the bodies were obliterated as well. These are made of ACTUAL metal(-ish substance), originating in the body of the Gedou Mazou. They HAVE been broken, but only through Naruto in Six-Tails Mode and Hinata's Twin Lion Fists. The same way the ACTUAL body of the Sandaime (unprotected) wouldn't stand up to those two attacks very well. So If the Completed Rasenshruiken is capable of OBLITERATING actual metal, I'd say the incomplete version could at least DAMAGE the Raikage's devoid-of-actual-metal body.

Of course because it is obvious that one is stronger than he other.

Diamond-Hard-Skin vs Iron-Hard-Body... if Kakuzu's technique was permanently, effortlessly active I'd rank them about equal. And the Rasenshruiken DID penetrate Kakuzu's skin, Who's to say it didn't do the same against the Raikage?

Yet the chapter was titled, The rasenshuriken's Limits so even the author is trying to make a point that the attack was pretty much useless. So you are trying to say that and alive 3rd Raikage would survive but not be able to use ninjutsu any more? Tenketsu are like the circulatory system and the Raikage's veins and arteries have a metal coating or else the attack Temari used against him should have disabled him especially considering it has more of a slicing effect compared to FRS.

It could have been titled that purely because the chapter was about a foe who couldn't be vanquished by a Rasenshruiken, for the first time. Its "Limit" doesn't necessarily imply that it's not AT ALL effective, rather that it's not effective ENOUGH.

Tenketsu are the Chakra Points, the ones Hyuuga strike at as a basis for the Gentle Fist, and the area where all chakra exits the body. These are NOT and CANNOT be made of iron, or chakra wouldn't pass through. Even Lee, whose tenketsu are undeveloped, can still be damaged by Neji's Gentle Fist techniques. So even without them being as developed ("opened") as with an actual ninja, they are PROVEN to be vulnerable to precise enough chakra attacks.

 

[LeEvilTongue]

I can now conclude that the majoity of NB users doesn't read the manga proper... Either that or they are all around 13 years of age. It didn't have sheit to do with his edo form. Naruto himself stated: "Not even a scratch".