[Discussion] Without Kyoka Suigetsu which captains can give Aizen a real challenge?

[Forbidden Tale]

1. Aizen's zanjutsu skills are able to one shot Full Powered Komamura. Aizen's zanjutsu skills are able to cut Shikai Kyoraku, Shikai Shinji, Shikai Sui Feng, Bankai Histugaya, Shikai Lisa, Shikai Love and Shikai Rose. Aizen's kido (not full powered) is able to one shot Bankai Komamura. Aizen's durability is able to stop Bankai Komamura with bare hands. Aizen stats in databook are above Unohana's. Base Aizen >>> Base Unohana

2. I don't see how that prove Unohana > Aizen. Well, ceros are part of Starrk's base powers. Kyoraku beat him, after letter fought with Rose, Ukitake and Love and stabbed him in the back, while he was not looking.

3. Aizen had alredy Hogyoku inside him. We saw Hogyoku healing him. Aizen said that he hit his limit in shinigami, which prove that Isshin is stronger.

4. I don't see how that say Bankai Urahara = Shikai Aizen?

5. By negating. Gin's way to touch sword. Yama's way to feel reiatsu and Aizen's way to negate ability. Other captains were not really aware of it, and still other captains should also had base abilities to be able to counter Aizen, because Aizen is not just KS, but a lot more.

6. Yamamoto tried suicede, because Aizen is dirty player. You can see that he grap his hand? Why did he do that if he would already suicide himself? To be sure that Aizen will not escape somehow.

 

[kotoamatsukami]

1. Aizen's zanjutsu skills are able to one shot Full Powered Komamura. Aizen's zanjutsu skills are able to cut Shikai Kyoraku, Shikai Shinji, Shikai Sui Feng, Bankai Histugaya, Shikai Lisa, Shikai Love and Shikai Rose. Aizen's kido (not full powered) is able to one shot Bankai Komamura. Aizen's durability is able to stop Bankai Komamura with bare hands. Aizen stats in databook are above Unohana's. Base Aizen >>> Base Unohana

2. I don't see how that prove Unohana > Aizen. Well, ceros are part of Starrk's base powers. Kyoraku beat him, after letter fought with Rose, Ukitake and Love and stabbed him in the back, while he was not looking.

3. Aizen had alredy Hogyoku inside him. We saw Hogyoku healing him. Aizen said that he hit his limit in shinigami, which prove that Isshin is stronger.

4. I don't see how that say Bankai Urahara = Shikai Aizen?

5. By negating. Gin's way to touch sword. Yama's way to feel reiatsu and Aizen's way to negate ability. Other captains were not really aware of it, and still other captains should also had base abilities to be able to counter Aizen, because Aizen is not just KS, but a lot more.

6. Yamamoto tried suicede, because Aizen is dirty player. You can see that he grap his hand? Why did he do that if he would already suicide himself? To be sure that Aizen will not escape somehow.

From the physical strenght numbers I see on bleach wiki which I think are real numbers has unohana physical strength above aizen so she can also one shot anybody aswell an her zanjutsu skills are better than aizen's there the best next to zaraki..she would also cut all thoes people down aswell their no match for her while in their shikai forms.an aizen used ks to cut shinji an kyoraku..his mobility is above unohana's but that won't really matter his speed is not something that unohana can't handle...there's a reason why her an zaraki had to train underground.

He did not fight rose an love for long nethier did he fight kyoraku an ukitake for long he still had a lot of fight left in him,yea kyoraku did land a sneak stab on him but he still did not look phased really or mabey he was?..

Nope you just don't get it.

Cuz shikai urahara has no chance against ks like I said he lucky aizen did not use it...for example, kyoraku an starrk where like even in power when starrk did his release an kyoraku did his shikai but thanks to starkk having the better ability of the two at the moment kyoraku was bout to use bankai..

Lol gin touched his sword cuz it won't no straight up battle it was out of no where aizen won't allow that to happen in a battle between the two...Yama way was plot cuz aizen can just slash away at his opponent without them ever getting the chance to get stabbed by him like the captains an vizards he cut down.

Yea escape useing ks,any other opponent he would just fight them straight up from the start no suicide attempts.

 

[Vapid]

There are quite a few that could give him a run for his money.

... They all lose regardless.

 

[Forbidden Tale]

From the physical strenght numbers I see on bleach wiki which I think are real numbers has unohana physical strength above aizen so she can also one shot anybody aswell an her zanjutsu skills are better than aizen's there the best next to zaraki..she would also cut all thoes people down aswell their no match for her while in their shikai forms.an aizen used ks to cut shinji an kyoraku..his mobility is above unohana's but that won't really matter his speed is not something that unohana can't handle...there's a reason why her an zaraki had to train underground.

He did not fight rose an love for long nethier did he fight kyoraku an ukitake for long he still had a lot of fight left in him,yea kyoraku did land a sneak stab on him but he still did not look phased really or mabey he was?..

Nope you just don't get it.

Cuz shikai urahara has no chance against ks like I said he lucky aizen did not use it...for example, kyoraku an starrk where like even in power when starrk did his release an kyoraku did his shikai but thanks to starkk having the better ability of the two at the moment kyoraku was bout to use bankai..

Lol gin touched his sword cuz it won't no straight up battle it was out of no where aizen won't allow that to happen in a battle between the two...Yama way was plot cuz aizen can just slash away at his opponent without them ever getting the chance to get stabbed by him like the captains an vizards he cut down.

Yea escape useing ks,any other opponent he would just fight them straight up from the start no suicide attempts.

1. Aizen's Battle Data, clockwise. Top: Offense (100), Top Right: Defense (90), Bottom right: Mobility (90), Bottom: Kidō/Reiatsu (100), Bottom Left: Intelligence (100), Top Left: Physical Strength (80). Total: 560/600

Unohana's Battle Data, clockwise. Top: Offense (100), Top Right: Defense (80), Bottom right: Mobility (70), Bottom: Kidō/Reiatsu (100), Bottom Left: Intelligence (100), Top Left: Physical Strength (90). Total: 540/600

Aizen > Unohana.

2. What?

3. You are the one who don't get. Aizen said: "I hit my limit as shinigami".

4. It would be true, if we assume that ressurection and shikai increase power equally, but that was never stated.

5. I would rather say escaping using gargatana. Aizen was already inside pillars of flames, KS will not help him.

 

[-Akuma-]

Captains that can beat him while he is using bankai:

1. Shikai Yamamoto
2. Bankai Isshin
3. Bankai Urahara
4. Post RR Bankai Byakuya (maybe)
5. Muken Zaraki (maybe)

Captains that can beat him while he is using KS:

1. Base Yamamoto
2. Full powered Yoruichi
3. Bankai Unohana
4. Bankai Shinji
5. Post RR Byakuya (maybe with just shikai, for sure with bankai)
6. Human Komamura (maybe)
7. Bankai Shunsui
8. Shikai Isshin
9. Muken Kenpachi
10. Shikai Urahara
11. Bankai Ukitake

With just base powers:

1. Base Yamamoto
2. Full powered Yoruichi
3. Bankai Gin
4. Shikai Unohana
5. Shikai Shinji
6. SHikai Byakuya (post RR training, maybe even with his base)
7. Human Komamura
8. Shikai Kyoraku
9. Base Isshin
10. Muken Kenpachi
11. Base Urahara
12. Shikai Ukitake

* Not counting RG members, but at least Osho should be stronger than Aizen.
* Hitsugaya (if he is still alive) in 100-150 years should surpass Aizen.

You're tempting me to get into another Yama vs Aizen debate.

 

[Forbidden Tale]

You're tempting me to get into another Yama vs Aizen debate.

Aizen vs Yama will only end if Kubo throw Transcedent reiatsu > any other type of reiatsu, which he still has to confirm, but even than it would mean taht Hogyoku Aizen > Yamamoto.

On the other hand, we here talk about Shinigami Aizen and he already said that Ryujin Jakka alone would be able to overpower him. And Zanpakutoless Yamamoto (not even base) made statament that he can take Aizen.

 

[-Akuma-]

Aizen vs Yama will only end if Kubo throw Transcedent reiatsu > any other type of reiatsu, which he still has to confirm, but even than it would mean taht Hogyoku Aizen > Yamamoto.

On the other hand, we here talk about Shinigami Aizen and he already said that Ryujin Jakka alone would be able to overpower him. And Zanpakutoless Yamamoto (not even base) made statament that he can take Aizen.

Just because an overly arrogant character makes a statement about his own strength doesn't mean it's true.

 

[Forbidden Tale]

Just because an overly arrogant character makes a statement about his own strength doesn't mean it's true.

Ok, but burden of proof is up to you.

Manga stated something, in order to contradict in you need to give good explanation.

I don't see why is that arrogant. Arrogant is what Byakuya is, he is the noble and look down on everyone else, or what Hitsugaya talked with Aizen that he would beat him.

WW who was by Coyote Starrk, Aizen's tramp card, was defeated by just Yama's hakuda. Yama on near dead situation was able to use 90s level of kido, which is very impressive and Aizen literally pissed his panths when he saw Yamamoto grabing him, and tha was coming from half dead person.

Not to mention that Yama survived suicide technique, Lol

 

[kotoamatsukami]

1. Aizen's Battle Data, clockwise. Top: Offense (100), Top Right: Defense (90), Bottom right: Mobility (90), Bottom: Kidō/Reiatsu (100), Bottom Left: Intelligence (100), Top Left: Physical Strength (80). Total: 560/600

Unohana's Battle Data, clockwise. Top: Offense (100), Top Right: Defense (80), Bottom right: Mobility (70), Bottom: Kidō/Reiatsu (100), Bottom Left: Intelligence (100), Top Left: Physical Strength (90). Total: 540/600

Aizen > Unohana.

2. What?

3. You are the one who don't get. Aizen said: "I hit my limit as shinigami".

4. It would be true, if we assume that ressurection and shikai increase power equally, but that was never stated.

5. I would rather say escaping using gargatana. Aizen was already inside pillars of flames, KS will not help him.

Lol no that little bit of mobility he has over her will mean nothing if they clash she would just over power him she is just to good with her sword play aizen won't be able to keep up an he can cut her but it won't really matter thanks to her healing kido...an Yamamoto is also 560 so why do you think he can just beat aizen without zan?

2.im saying starkk was not really to hurt really.

3.an going by the battle charts thing if aizen an Yama are equal an isshin beat aizen so does that also mean isshin>Yama lol?

4.they were bassicaly equal the whole time from base to shikai an ressorrection,starrk just had the better ability,kyoraku was short range an starkk was long range.

5.no he was not in any flames an ks can make you see anything he can easily escape anyone useing ks.

 

[Killuaa]

I cant believe that I'm about to say this, but I agree with the kotoamarsukami here. Isshin simply hasn't shown to be able to counter KS, nor have there been any implications that he knows its weaknesses or have the knowledge to figure it out. I still think without the KS hax, that isshin is superior though.

 

[Beetle]

Without:

1. Yamamoto
2. Mayuri with gizmos/drugs
3. current Kenpachi
4. current Byakuya
5. Urahara
6. Isshin

With:

1. Yamamoto
2/3. Urahara/Mayuri b/c of intel/prep
4. current Kenpachi

 

[apple pie of doom]

Yamamoto, Mayuri probably if he can prepare against it.
Shunsui and Ukitake maybe if their bankai is revealed to be usefull.

Besides those 4 I can see no other captains winning.

Isshin already did of course, but he's not a captain.

 

[-Akuma-]

Ok, but burden of proof is up to you.

Manga stated something, in order to contradict in you need to give good explanation.

I don't see why is that arrogant. Arrogant is what Byakuya is, he is the noble and look down on everyone else, or what Hitsugaya talked with Aizen that he would beat him.

WW who was by Coyote Starrk, Aizen's tramp card, was defeated by just Yama's hakuda. Yama on near dead situation was able to use 90s level of kido, which is very impressive and Aizen literally pissed his panths when he saw Yamamoto grabing him, and tha was coming from half dead person.

Not to mention that Yama survived suicide technique, Lol

No Yama is arrogant it's been proved time and time again, Yama see himsmelf as the strongest in the gotei 13 by far, he also thought he could beat Juha Bach with his shikai he's easily arrogant. Juha himself even pointed out he is stubborn and arrogant aswell.

Only reason WW was Aizen's 'trump card' was not because he was powerful it's because he could seal RJ, and I;m pretty sure Aizen knew if RJ was sealed he could beat Yama. So you say Yama was confident about beating Aizen while the same could be said from Aizen. And if Yama was so confident he could beat Aizen without RJ, he couldn't of planned to kill himself and all his captains with a suicide move.

 

[Forbidden Tale]

Lol no that little bit of mobility he has over her will mean nothing if they clash she would just over power him she is just to good with her sword play aizen won't be able to keep up an he can cut her but it won't really matter thanks to her healing kido...an Yamamoto is also 560 so why do you think he can just beat aizen without zan?

2.im saying starkk was not really to hurt really.

3.an going by the battle charts thing if aizen an Yama are equal an isshin beat aizen so does that also mean isshin>Yama lol?

4.they were bassicaly equal the whole time from base to shikai an ressorrection,starrk just had the better ability,kyoraku was short range an starkk was long range.

5.no he was not in any flames an ks can make you see anything he can easily escape anyone useing ks.

- Aizen is better. It was implied that Yama can do that. You both can still have 100 but one be weaker than another.
If we both do school examp, and I have 50 points, I got 5 (highest grade in my country) and you have 43, you also got 5, but that don't say that we are equal.

Sure it can also apply that Unohana and her being better than Aizen, but she really didn't show anything that suggest that she is better.

2. He still fought them.

3. See my first point.

4. Not really. As I said, you need to prove that ressurection and shikai has same increase of power,

5. KS will not help him get away of it.

 

[Forbidden Tale]

I cant believe that I'm about to say this, but I agree with the kotoamarsukami here. Isshin simply hasn't shown to be able to counter KS, nor have there been any implications that he knows its weaknesses or have the knowledge to figure it out. I still think without the KS hax, that isshin is superior though.

How do you know that he didn't counter KS in fight and that's the reason why he "didn't use it" rather than just saying he didn't use it.

Aizen said that he hit his limit as shinigami, which say a lot.

 

[Forbidden Tale]

No Yama is arrogant it's been proved time and time again, Yama see himsmelf as the strongest in the gotei 13 by far, he also thought he could beat Juha Bach with his shikai he's easily arrogant. Juha himself even pointed out he is stubborn and arrogant aswell.

Only reason WW was Aizen's 'trump card' was not because he was powerful it's because he could seal RJ, and I;m pretty sure Aizen knew if RJ was sealed he could beat Yama. So you say Yama was confident about beating Aizen while the same could be said from Aizen. And if Yama was so confident he could beat Aizen without RJ, he couldn't of planned to kill himself and all his captains with a suicide move.

1. Yama see him as strongest? I don't see anyone who is stronger than him. Yama never believed that he can beat Yhwach with Shikai. It was said that he is "arrogant" because he talked like that, but it's not that Yama was wrong, it was that Yhwach stole his bankai and left his copy in order to distract him. So your point here is vague.

2. As I said, Starrk refer to him as trump card and that don't seem to be case only because of RJ, after Starrk made his statament, WW help Tier escape Ice prison with just his voice.

3. Aizen knew that when WW explode, Yama would try to stop it.

4. As I said Aizen is dirty player. He could've easily escape to HM with using of gargatana or something else, while Yama destroy everything.

 

[kotoamatsukami]

- Aizen is better. It was implied that Yama can do that. You both can still have 100 but one be weaker than another.
If we both do school examp, and I have 50 points, I got 5 (highest grade in my country) and you have 43, you also got 5, but that don't say that we are equal.

Sure it can also apply that Unohana and her being better than Aizen, but she really didn't show anything that suggest that she is better.

2. He still fought them.

3. See my first point.

4. Not really. As I said, you need to prove that ressurection and shikai has same increase of power,

5. KS will not help him get away of it.

1.No from ur last post you said that sense his number was higher he was stronger than unohana now you trying to change up...it implied Yama can do what? Beat base aizen yea I know that but like I said thas not why I got from ur last post.

2.She did not show she was on aizen level lol than what do you call her killing zaraki 1000 times an every time he died he got stronger an became a better fighter,he had to become stronger 1000 times in order to defeat her no one that aizen cut down was even close to that kind of strength espacially sense most of the strong people won't even using bankai...

You must be registered for see links

read what unohana said I'm stronger than anyone but you,stronger meaning physicaly add that with her sword play an aizen dies..I don't even have base Yama beating her so I surely don't have base aizen doing it.

3.But he barley lost energy...he still was able to keep up with kyoraku an give him a good wound while playing that color game they both were injured an still fighting at the same level.

4.Naw go back to ur last post before ur recent one an thats not what I'm getting from it...ur saying isshin>Yama

5.No one said it has the same increase in power it differs between opponents,they were even in base an then they were even in shikai an release but like I said stark just had the better ability an refer back to what I said in number 3

6.Yes ks will...he was not surrounded by pillars of fire until after Yama grabbed him an at that moment Yama told ichigo to flee the battle field if ichigo had time to flee then aizen without a doubt would have had time to flee aswell an with the use of ks it would be way easier.

 

[Forbidden Tale]

1. Look at what I writte b4: Sure it can also apply that Unohana and her being better than Aizen, but she really didn't show anything that suggest that she is better..

2. I don't see a problem for Aizen in killing Zaraki a lot of times.

3. As I said look to what I writte, one can still have same number but be inferior, Unohana is inferior in kido, strength, speed and intelligence against Aizen, she only beat him in Zanjutsu.

4. Can you prove that there increase strenght in same manner, I don't remember that being anywhere stated.

5. Ks can't transport him 20 km away, KS can fool Yama in thinking that one in front of him is not Aizen.

 

[Tycor]

Ukitake would wh00p his butt for sure.

 

[kotoamatsukami]

1. Look at what I writte b4: Sure it can also apply that Unohana and her being better than Aizen, but she really didn't show anything that suggest that she is better..

2. I don't see a problem for Aizen in killing Zaraki a lot of times.

3. As I said look to what I writte, one can still have same number but be inferior, Unohana is inferior in kido, strength, speed and intelligence against Aizen, she only beat him in Zanjutsu.

4. Can you prove that there increase strenght in same manner, I don't remember that being anywhere stated.

5. Ks can't transport him 20 km away, KS can fool Yama in thinking that one in front of him is not Aizen.

Years he can kill fkt zaraki a lot of times but not as many times as unohana did while zaraki himself is still getting stronger.

Lol no look again her strenght is above his so what are you talking about?..an her ability to use kido is better than aizen so I don't get what you mean there? He did a level 90 kido but could not even use it's full power while unohana can control he kido so good she can heal her self instantly after taking a wound...like I stated before his speed don't matter,Byakuya is faster than renji but renji still caught his movements....an as for aizen intelligence being better well aizen only showed to be intelligent outside of battle.

Just look at their fight one never over powered the other everything was equal when it came down to them fighting sword to sword..same thig with shikai an stark release form.

Don't need to transport him away,like I said if ichigo had time to flee then aizen defiantly had time to get away if not for Yama holding him..if he would of used ks an Yama grabbed an fake image while aizen ran away his pillars if fire would never hit aizen.