Why were the pain puppets caught in Jiraiya's sound genjutsu?

[MightGai]

After all, they were puppets, not really living bodies, so they moved only by Nagato's will + black rods. So when the genjutsu hit in the Jiraiya's fight, what did exactly hit? Did the sound somehow affect Nagato or is this just a plot hole?

 

[123fire]

You're 10 years late

 

[salamander uchiha]

After all, they were puppets, not really living bodies, so they moved only by Nagato's will + black rods. So when the genjutsu hit in the Jiraiya's fight, what did exactly hit? Did the sound somehow affect Nagato or is this just a plot hole?

So my response in the VS thread led to a thread on the issue :lol. It was plot hole since Nagato was transmitting chakra and there brain wasnt actually intact. The puppets don't actually have anything that can legitimately be affected by genjutsu being dead bodies.

 

[neosmith500]

The genjutsu played bob marley.

OT: I wouldn't say its a plot hole , we just dont understand.

 

[salamander uchiha]

The genjutsu played bob marley.

OT: I wouldn't say its a plot hole , we just dont understand.

The databook says it affects the mind(like genjutsu), the puppets don't have minds therefore it shouldn't work.

 

[Joon]

Nagato had power outside life and death.

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[InfiniteMugen]

Cause it’s disrupting the users chakra, like any genjutsu, and despite them being dead, the cadavers still had nagatos chakra to disrupt. This either caused the chakra controlling the cadavers to be disrupted, thus limiting nagatos control over them for the time being, OR nagato was under it as well.(I don’t remember if we see nagato at all during the fight with jiraiya so I’m not sure about the second one). Or at least that’s what would make the most sense to me

 

[Animegoin]

^that.

 

[GetsugaTenshou]

Their senses are essentially Nagato's. He sees and hears whatever they see or hear, so logically, the Demonic Illusion: TCC (which is sound) was perceived by Nagato as well and the technique took effect on him leading to his control over the bodies being disrupted. But since we didn't see Nagato at all during the fight (for spoiler reasons), this is just speculation

 

[Jinrou]

Don't think the genjutsu would have affected Nagato himself but those three bodies... It's truly confusing though.

But if we were to say Nagato was affected based on chakra connection, then Nagato + Deva should have turned to stone when that absorption path was sucking in Naruto's nature energy or Nagato + Deva should have been paralyzed here [

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Could suggest even though he's connected, he's actually still using the network of the bodies? So different chakra networks for each paths and why they don't all receive chakra related damage/paralysis despite being connected by Nagato?

 

[Rikudou Tobi]

Nagato shares not only visions but all other senses with his his pain bodies. How else is he able to listen to his opponents and feel his opponents chakras to through those bodies.
Of course the genjutsu would work because of the reason. The Six path black weapons have absolute control over each body and the concept of Pain is by using Outer path gedo to revive the dead bodies to be undead and connected in every way possible.

 

[MightGai]

So my response in the VS thread led to a thread on the issue :lol. It was plot hole since Nagato was transmitting chakra and there brain wasnt actually intact. The puppets don't actually have anything that can legitimately be affected by genjutsu being dead bodies.

Actually I created the post first and then I read that post of yours and was like "oshit" :lol

Exactly, by all accounts they are dead, they don't have a functioning brain to affect.

The genjutsu played bob marley.

OT: I wouldn't say its a plot hole , we just dont understand.

Which makes it a plothole. It's not like they never introduced genjutsu before to not know how it works, it's just that knowing what we know about genjutsu and pain's bodies it doesn't add up.

Nagato had power outside life and death.

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Ow, this img is going to make some Pain/Nagato wankers and the six paths jutsu =/= six path =/= rinnegan fanbase so butthurt

Cause it’s disrupting the users chakra, like any genjutsu, and despite them being dead, the cadavers still had nagatos chakra to disrupt. This either caused the chakra controlling the cadavers to be disrupted, thus limiting nagatos control over them for the time being, OR nagato was under it as well.(I don’t remember if we see nagato at all during the fight with jiraiya so I’m not sure about the second one). Or at least that’s what would make the most sense to me

They did have the chakra Nagato was sending them, but Nagato himself shouldn't had been affected by it (since his chakra in his own body shouldn't had been affected, therefore not putting him under the genjutsu).

Genjutsu affects the brain in the end, by manipulating the chakra that goes arround and in it, making the user see and feel whatever the caster wants. Since the bodies didn't have any functioning brain to begin with, this situation makes no sense.

Their senses are essentially Nagato's. He sees and hears whatever they see or hear, so logically, the Demonic Illusion: TCC (which is sound) was perceived by Nagato as well and the technique took effect on him leading to his control over the bodies being disrupted. But since we didn't see Nagato at all during the fight (for spoiler reasons), this is just speculation

Yes and no. Nagato does see and hear everything the bodies do, but he doesn't feel what they do (pain, discomfort, exhaustion, etc). Imagine this: a puppet master send chakra to the puppet via the threads ... if someone decides to cast a genjutsu on the puppet, would the puppet master be affected as well? no, right?.

 

[GetsugaTenshou]

Yes and no. Nagato does see and hear everything the bodies do, but he doesn't feel what they do (pain, discomfort, exhaustion, etc). Imagine this: a puppet master send chakra to the puppet via the threads ... if someone decides to cast a genjutsu on the puppet, would the puppet master be affected as well? no, right?.

Seems you've misunderstood my point. The genjutsu is induced via hearing. If Nagato hears the frog song, logically he'll be affected by it; not as a result of the bodies being affected by it, but as a result of he himself being affected by it due to his exposure to the genjutsu's medium of induction. The puppet analogy doesn't really work since puppets don't have senses, much less senses that are linked to the puppet master

 

[InfiniteMugen]

Actually I created the post first and then I read that post of yours and was like "oshit" :lol

Exactly, by all accounts they are dead, they don't have a functioning brain to affect.





Which makes it a plothole. It's not like they never introduced genjutsu before to not know how it works, it's just that knowing what we know about genjutsu and pain's bodies it doesn't add up.




Ow, this img is going to make some Pain/Nagato wankers and the six paths jutsu =/= six path =/= rinnegan fanbase so butthurt




They did have the chakra Nagato was sending them, but Nagato himself shouldn't had been affected by it (since his chakra in his own body shouldn't had been affected, therefore not putting him under the genjutsu).

Genjutsu affects the brain in the end, by manipulating the chakra that goes arround and in it, making the user see and feel whatever the caster wants. Since the bodies didn't have any functioning brain to begin with, this situation makes no sense.




Yes and no. Nagato does see and hear everything the bodies do, but he doesn't feel what they do (pain, discomfort, exhaustion, etc). Imagine this: a puppet master send chakra to the puppet via the threads ... if someone decides to cast a genjutsu on the puppet, would the puppet master be affected as well? no, right?.

The sound genjutsu doesn’t work like that though, your explaining visual genjutsu. Iirc the sound genjutsu was strictly for disorientation, jiraiya only used it cause he knew they had shared vision. In this respect it’s still possible to make the bodies chakra so disoriented that they could no longer be properly controlled without nagato himself going through the same. Or hell maybe your right, maybe it’s a mistake lol

 

[MightGai]

Seems you've misunderstood my point. The genjutsu is induced via hearing. If Nagato hears the frog song, logically he'll be affected by it; not as a result of the bodies being affected by it, but as a result of he himself being affected by it due to his exposure to the genjutsu's medium of induction. The puppet analogy doesn't really work since puppets don't have senses, much less senses that are linked to the puppet master

But the genjutsu, besides sound, is also delivered using chakra or at least as a piggyback (unless you're saying that any musician in NV with the right notes can perform sound genjutsu). Nagato does hear the song, via the puppets, but there is nothing that manipulates Nagato's brain chakra so to fall to the genjutsu as well. (unless, again, you're saying that the chakra used to cast the genjutsu somehow travels back to Nagato via the puppet link).

The sound genjutsu doesn’t work like that though, your explaining visual genjutsu. Iirc the sound genjutsu was strictly for disorientation, jiraiya only used it cause he knew they had shared vision. In this respect it’s still possible to make the bodies chakra so disoriented that they could no longer be properly controlled without nagato himself going through the same. Or hell maybe your right, maybe it’s a mistake lol

It does. All types of genjutsus works the same way (by manipulating the chakra in the opponent's brain) the only thing that changes is the way the genjutsu payload is delivered (by visual contact, sound, smells, etc). What's also strange is that the pains were ... "conscious" inside the genjutsu, so if Nagato's chakra somehow was disturbed during the genjutsu, the pains should had fallen dead to the ground since there wouldn't be any chakra to control them.

 

[GetsugaTenshou]

But the genjutsu, besides sound, is also delivered using chakra or at least as a piggyback (unless you're saying that any musician in NV with the right notes can perform sound genjutsu). Nagato does hear the song, via the puppets, but there is nothing that manipulates Nagato's brain chakra so to fall to the genjutsu as well. (unless, again, you're saying that the chakra used to cast the genjutsu somehow travels back to Nagato via the puppet link)

Nothing suggests anything other than the sound induces the genjutsu. The chakra disruption is a direct result of the sound, not an accompanying effect

@Bold It's not just about the notes either, the pitch, amplitude, frequency and wavelength all play a part. It's basically impossible to accurately replicate a sound, let alone an entire song without being aware of all its properties.

 

[MightGai]

Nothing suggests anything other than the sound induces the genjutsu. It's not just about the notes either, the pitch, amplitude, frequency and wavelength all play a part. It's basically impossible to completely replicate a sound without being aware of all its properties. The chakra disruption is as a result of the sound, not an accompanying effect

Again, that would be like saying that any musician in narutoverse is capable of sound genjutsu when they probably don't even know the first thing about chakra. Genjutsu is that, Gen = Illusion, Jutsu = Art/Technique ... even if it doesn't seem like it, they should be using chakra, doesn't really matter if it's casted by sight or sound. Even sharingan visual genjutsu uses a modicum of chakra to cast.

 

[GetsugaTenshou]

Again, that would be like saying that any musician in narutoverse is capable of sound genjutsu when they probably don't even know the first thing about chakra. Genjutsu is that, Gen = Illusion, Jutsu = Art/Technique ... even if it doesn't seem like it, they should be using chakra, doesn't really matter if it's casted by sight or sound. Even sharingan visual genjutsu uses a modicum of chakra to cast.

While that's true, the chakra itself could be delivered via sound, couldn't it? What's the actual difference between a living person who has sound genjutsu used on them and Nagato having sound genjutsu being indirectly used on him via the bodies. What delivers the chakra to the former, if not sound?

 

[MightGai]

While that's true, the chakra itself could be delivered via sound, couldn't it? What's the actual difference between a living person who has sound genjutsu used on them and Nagato having sound genjutsu being indirectly used on him via the bodies. What delivers the chakra to the former, if not sound?

I knew I saw it somewhere

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It does use senjutsu chakra.

But the chakra doesn't have a way of travelling back to Nagato. The toads cast the genjutsu, which is sound + chakra, then sound + chakra reaches the bodies, and the bodies transmit the sound back to Nagato (as that's how the controlling works, seeing and hearing is transmitted), but not the chakra, unless again, we're saying that the link Nagato used to control the bodies can also be a carrier to deliver the chakra from the genjutsu back to him.

 

[GetsugaTenshou]

I knew I saw it somewhere

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It does use senjutsu chakra.

But the chakra doesn't have a way of travelling back to Nagato. The toads cast the genjutsu, which is sound + chakra, then sound + chakra reaches the bodies, and the bodies transmit the sound back to Nagato (as that's how the controlling works, seeing and hearing is transmitted), but not the chakra, unless again, we're saying that the link Nagato used to control the bodies can also be a carrier to deliver the chakra from the genjutsu back to him.

Ah, I see your point now. So basically, the bodies filter out the chakra and only the sound gets back to Nagato.