[Discussion] Why Tobi can't be two people; considering possibilities

[Edge]

Alrighty, let me just start by just saying I have no problem with the idea of Tobi being Obito; I think it could turn out to be pretty interesting and cool for plot and character development.

The ONLY reason I never supported it before is because it makes no f***ing sense, and I try to go with things that make sense at least in theory. So call me a butthurt fanboy or w/e but all I'm trying to do is make sense of what's going on. Cheers.

Here's an issue I'm struggling with and maybe you can help me out.

A lot of people are now assuming that Tobi must have been two people. The long haired one someone else (possibly Madara) and the short haired one Obito.

This can't be because of the following.

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As you can see, Kisame recognizes Tobi both WITH long hair AND without it. We're now led to believe that the short-haired Tobi has been Obito all along, but how can this be? How could Obito have been controlling Yagura when he was just a child or perhaps not even born?

This isn't even to mention how in God's name the two can be the same person.

Something else to note that will **** with your mind even further. Let's look at the timeline!

Controlling Yagura: Long-Haired Tobi

Attack on the Leaf Village: Obito (Short-Haired Tobi)

Participation in Uchiha Massacre: Long-Haired Tobi

Events up until now (from "Joining" Akatsuki to present): Obito (Short-haired Tobi)

WTFOMGBBQ?! Tobi must be two different people from looking at this timeline but how can that be due to the aforementioned? This leads me to a few conclusions, some I'm throwing in just from reading others ideas and which I'll outline below.

1) Obito is not Tobi, Kakashi and co. are under a genjutsu - NEXT TO IMPOSSIBLE.

This probably isn't likely, Kishi doesn't possess as much trolling power as Kubo.

2) Obito is Obito, and the long-haired Tobi is someone else - Unlikely

Possible, but unlikely. This goes hand in hand with the bottom theory in regards to the timeline concerning Yagura being butchered in order to fit Obito in there somewhere.

A popular theory I've been seeing is that the long haired man is actually Madara and he trained Obito while saving him from a crushing end. This is unlikely, simply due to the fact that we know Madara unlocked his Rinnegan shortly before his death and somehow transferred them over to Nagato.

Since Nagato is OLDER than Obito, then Obito couldn't possibly have lived to meet Madara or see the transfer of eyes between him and Nagato.

Could the long hair man have been someone else besides Madara? The only one that comes to mind is Izuna but even that seems improbable because Madara never hinted at more than one person helping him with his plans besides Tobi. ("this is HIS doing" etc etc)

3) Obito has been Tobi the whole time, and the timing of Yagura's control will be half-a**ed to fit the timeline - Likely

A likely one. No one can say for sure how long or exactly when the reign of Yagura lasted or if Tobi had been controlling him the whole time. It's Kishi's manga, and if he wants Tobi to be Obito then it's going to ****ing happen whether we like it or not.

After the blunder with the Fourth Hokage's face, I'm starting to doubt whether Kishi remembers the details of his own manga, but maybe that' just me.

4) Tobi is someone else; "body surfing" using a host(s)-Likely

This is an interesting one that some have been discussing and I felt worth looking into. It's based on the fact that WE DON'T KNOW if the Obito standing at the end of 599 is ACTUALLY Obito. Two possibilities that come to mind are either Izuna (long-haired Tobi) or the Elder son who's been hopping around and changing drawers ever since daddy made him mad.

Whether it's some jutsu similar to the one Orochimaru conceived or a new one remains to be seen if this theory even holds up.

This would explain the difference between long-hair and short-hair (different bodies) but still doesn't explain how Kisame could recognize both faces if they are both seemingly different bodies.

What do you think will happen? Are we really just over-thinking this? Has Obito been Tobi all along and we "fanboys" should stop crying over his massive hair growth? Has Kishi made a horrible mistake that will take a genius stroke to recover?

 

[ITACHIUCHIA101]

mind blown

 

[Beifong]

he can cut his hair and put a wig hair isn't problem

 

[Bijuu Kage]

Still in shock

 

[Edge]

Still in shock

As am I, but now I;m starting to realize the impact of him being Obito (at least in appearance).

It not only ****s our minds but it adds some drama to the situation.

In regards to the body possession theory (my bet), it would answer why Izuna/Elder Son could live for so long.

At this point though, I'm seriously starting to think it'll be Obito through and through no matter how much we try to analyze.

 

[GimmeFood]

It could be like this, since we don't know the "date" of the reign of 4th Mizukage.

Attack on the Leaf Village: Obito (Short-Haired Tobi)
Controlling Yagura: Long-Haired Tobi
Participation in Uchiha Massacre: Long-Haired Tobi
Events up until now (from "Joining" Akatsuki to present): Obito (Short-haired Tobi)

 

[Edge]

It could be like this, since we don't know the "date" of the reign of 4th Mizukage.

Attack on the Leaf Village: Obito (Short-Haired Tobi)
Controlling Yagura: Long-Haired Tobi
Participation in Uchiha Massacre: Long-Haired Tobi
Events up until now (from "Joining" Akatsuki to present): Obito (Short-haired Tobi)

But it can't be, something I forgot to mention.

Zabuza, who was 26 when he died, was raised under Yagura's rule (he killed all those kids to graduate).

Since we know he was raised under it, then it only makes sense to take place before the attack on the leaf which only happened 16 years ago as opposed to 16-26 years ago.

 

[Father of Life]

I don't know what to believe anymore

 

[3MESSIAH]

this obito crap doesnt let me sleep xd

 

[GimmeFood]

But it can't be, something I forgot to mention.

Zabuza, who was 26 when he died, was raised under Yagura's rule (he killed all those kids to graduate).

Since we know he was raised under it, then it only makes sense to take place before the attack on the leaf which only happened 16 years ago as opposed to 16-26 years ago.

Found something. Narutopedia says he (Zabuza) gratuated from academy at 9 years old. Thats 17 years before he died at the age of 26.
When he graduated Yagura was already doing the "massacre" = was being controlled.

As Kakashi and Obito have the same age, at the time of the war they were 13-14, it couldnt be Obito controlling Yagura.

Plothole?

 

[neezyb]

I don't know what to believe anymore

Pretty much.

 

[Edge]

Found something. Narutopedia says he (Zabuza) gratuated from academy at 9 years old. Thats 17 years before he died at the age of 26.
When he graduated Yagura was already doing the "massacre" = was being controlled.

As Kakashi and Obito have the same age, at the time of the war they were 13-14, it couldnt be Obito controlling Yagura.

Plothole?

Great research my friend, and yes unfortunately, plothole.

 

[jt1891]

Hm. Kisame was 32 when he died, and he graduated at the age of 10. The Academy usually begins around the age of 6, and as Kisame is an obvious product of the 'Bloody Mist', I'd say the earliest date for Yagura's reign would be 26 years ago. Might be later considering Ao's apparent age and attitude, but Kisame is the only one we have solid data on.

Obito would have been 4 years old at best. So it couldn't have been him.

Madara? Probably not. If Minato was about the same age as Shikaku, Inoichi, Mikoto and the others of that generation he'd have been training under Jiraiya for a while by then. And since Nagato gained the Rinnegan long before that, Madara would be rotting in his grave already.

Maybe Zetsu? He is the only person I know of who might have been around and might have the motive. But he seems to lack the ability, unless he happened to tote a Sharingan at some point. Perhaps he used his cloning technique to copy Madara's abilities to a limited extent?

Meh. Kishi dug a big hole with this revelation.

 

[Edge]

Hm. Kisame was 32 when he died, and he graduated at the age of 10. The Academy usually begins around the age of 6, and as Kisame is an obvious product of the 'Bloody Mist', I'd say the earliest date for Yagura's reign would be 26 years ago. Might be later considering Ao's apparent age and attitude, but Kisame is the only one we have solid data on.

Obito would have been 4 years old at best. So it couldn't have been him.

Madara? Probably not. If Minato was about the same age as Shikaku, Inoichi, Mikoto and the others of that generation he'd have been training under Jiraiya for a while by then. And since Nagato gained the Rinnegan long before that, Madara would be rotting in his grave already.

Maybe Zetsu? He is the only person I know of who might have been around and might have the motive. But he seems to lack the ability, unless he happened to tote a Sharingan at some point. Perhaps he used his cloning technique to copy Madara's abilities to a limited extent?

Meh. Kishi dug a big hole with this revelation.

Totally forgot about Ao lol

And I'm really looking forward to how this will be explained.

 

[jt1891]

Hm. I just realized something while re-reading the Manga. While Madara is aware of Nagato and his Rinnegan, he never claimed to have given it to him. I and others merely assumed that Nagato got it from Madara given Tobi's words during his fight with Konan. But when you consider the fact that Tobi has blatantly lied to others just to manipulate them, we really have no reason to believe that Nagato simply wasn't born with the Rinnegan. If that's the case, Madara might have lived long enough to act as Tobi and control Yagura. Maybe even longer. We really have no idea when Madara died.

 

[Edge]

Hm. I just realized something while re-reading the Manga. While Madara is aware of Nagato and his Rinnegan, he never claimed to have given it to him. I and others merely assumed that Nagato got it from Madara given Tobi's words during his fight with Konan. But when you consider the fact that Tobi has blatantly lied to others just to manipulate them, we really have no reason to believe that Nagato simply wasn't born with the Rinnegan. If that's the case, Madara might have lived long enough to act as Tobi and control Yagura. Maybe even longer. We really have no idea when Madara died.

While this would fix some things, it doesn't answer the question as to how Kisame recognizes both haired Tobi's as one and the same.

 

[jt1891]

While this would fix some things, it doesn't answer the question as to how Kisame recognizes both haired Tobi's as one and the same.

Actually...

Kisame is 32 and Ibiki is 31. This is important since Ibiki confronted Kisame shortly before 'Madara' revealed himself. Ibiki became a Chuunin at 15, so this gives us a starting point; the earliest that confrontation could have occurred would have been 16 years ago. But given Ibiki's scars, I'd say some time had passed. So we are looking at anywhere between 16 and 13 years ago, maybe more.

Given that time frame, Obito could have very well been the person controlling Yagura by then. Madara had to die sometime, after all.

 

[Edge]

Actually...

Kisame is 32 and Ibiki is 31. This is important since Ibiki confronted Kisame shortly before 'Madara' revealed himself. Ibiki became a Chuunin at 15, so this gives us a starting point; the earliest that confrontation could have occurred would have been 16 years ago. But given Ibiki's scars, I'd say some time had passed. So we are looking at anywhere between 16 and 13 years ago, maybe more.

Given that time frame, Obito could have very well been the person controlling Yagura by then. Madara had to die sometime, after all.

Since both Kisame (arguably) and even Zabuza (died at 26) were RAISED under Yagura's rule, it was quite a bit before that.

 

[Haske]

Found something. Narutopedia says he (Zabuza) gratuated from academy at 9 years old. Thats 17 years before he died at the age of 26.
When he graduated Yagura was already doing the "massacre" = was being controlled.

As Kakashi and Obito have the same age, at the time of the war they were 13-14, it couldnt be Obito controlling Yagura.

Plothole?

Agreed

 

[jt1891]

Since both Kisame (arguably) and even Zabuza (died at 26) were RAISED under Yagura's rule, it was quite a bit before that.

Yes, I know. Madara may have controlled Yagura to begin with, but before or after he died Tobi/Obito took over. Tobi then revealed himself to Kisame claiming to be Uchiha Madara 16-13 Years ago give or take.

My working theory about Madara/Obito/Tobi is this: Madara lived in seclusion after Hashirama shoved a sword through his chest studying his cells in order to recreate the Rinnegan and move his own plans forward. Around 30 years ago give or take Madara brought Yagura under his control and began the Bloody Mist era.

At some pont Madara's experiments with Hashirama's cells resulted in Zetsu's creation, and he used him to keep track of his enemies. He probably had Zetzu snooping around in Konoha quite a bit.

Now as for Obito...I think it's very likely that he is related to Madara, given how similar they appear. This is also important because it explains why Madara, in this scenario, would bother with a half-dead canon-fodder shinobi like Obito appeared to be at the time. He is his descendant. So...He sets Zetsu to observe Obito or others he believes may be useful to his plans, and when Obito is left half-dead Zetsu retrieves him.

Madara then proceeds to patch Obito back together, somehow brings him around to his way of thinking, and begins to train him. Sometime during this period, Madara finally awakens the Rinnegan. Unfortunately for him, Tobi gets ambitious and decides to kill Madara and take the Rinnegan for himself. Tobi succeeds in killing him, but Madara pulls a Danzo and crushes the eyes before he can get his hands on them.

Sometime before or after this, Tobi picks up where his predecessor left off and takes control of Yagura for his own purposes, and reveals himself to Kisame claiming to be Madara.

Then...we have the Nine-Tails' attack. Bam.

The advantages of this theory: It solves most of the issues with Tobito, and it explains something that has been bugging me for a while now; how Madara died. Tobi killing him and taking his place would be a bit poetic IMO.