[Discussion] Why Sasuke & Naruto are both idiots

valandil988

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Sasuke in the latest chapter has basically turned around and said he wants to start fresh using "past" teachings to guide his actions. To wipe the slate clean so to speak.

A few points against him:

1. He can't kill Ashura (how can you kill a dead man?) He would have to seal Ashura's chakra alongside Naruto in order for the reincarnation to be stopped. If he doesn't have the means to maintain Ashura's current incarnation without causing Ashura to reincarnate again starting the cycle all over again then his plan fails. Conflict between the two ideals will always occur.

2. Immortality route vs Clan propagation. If he continues his clan he will run the risk of someone arising from his own family to undo his current work, ie unseal the tailed beasts much like Madara did when he unlocked his own Rinnegan. Ergo the only way around this is for the Uchiha clan to end with Sasuke. That means he will have to find some means of immortality. However he cannot pull an Orochimaru who uses a transfer technique which takes over the previous owners body. This could possibly mean he looses his sharingan and or Rinnegan. The whole premise of his plan holds onto to idea that he is there to enforce peace at the point of a sword. If he dies the whole plan falls apart. Also same goes if he looses his overwhelming power. Sasuke MUST become immortal if he wishes this plan to work.

3. The tailed beast will ALWAYS exist he cannot kill them only seal them. That means the threat will always exist that the "past" will re-surge. A better idea would be to kill all ninja's keep the people powerless so a weakness in yourself becomes less of a problem. If he destroys all knowledge of ninjas he will be more capable of keeping the peace.

Naruto's "idea" :

I won't even call it a plan its simply a belief that he can "do" it. Fact is he has no plan. After a common enemy is defeated things would revert to their original state within a few generations. Madara's threat was by no means a true fix.

Truth is that humans have to change to be more connected in order to understand each other. Obviously Rikudo's plan of connection by chakra was a good one however its apparent that he failed to understand how difficult it is for one to communicate with chakra, his own arrogance considering his own incredible power and skill. Naruto and Sasuke had to fight and reach a high level of chakra manipulation before they could communicate they way Rikudo meant for them. Fact is only ninja of a high level can communicate using this method. Ergo it is not available to the common man or woman. Civilians cannot communicate using this method.

Naruto needs to make it SIMPLE and EASY for them to bring peace. Like some form of innate emotion sensing much like he has gained from Kurama if they can come up with a way to share that ability with everyone. Then they just might have a chance and creating a true and lasting peace.
 
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The Paradox

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1) The Uchiha would be fine because this time around Black Zetsu is sealed with his mother, whereas before he was in the shadows controlling the Uchiha so that one day his mother could come back.

2) We don't know what Naruto's plan is yet. He might not even have one right now. He might just be planning to make sure every is safe and things can begin to be rebuilt before he comes up with his final plan for the world and the people living in it. He's not as hasty as he used to be.

3) Sasuke is full of doubt in this chapter, of his own way of thinking. Read past what his speech bubbles say and read what he's thinking while he's talking. He doesn't fully believe in what he's saying, so he's trying to see if Naruto will confirm his final question on is he alone or not and if the current world is worth keeping (Obito...).

Building off on point #3.. Sasuke has a plan, but he doesn't have 100% confidence and also is just acting on his feelings without taking into account that there are other people in this world. Naruto on the other hand hasn't given a real solid plan for the future, just ideals to live by. That's because he doesn't want to rush this, he also doesn't want to totally get rid of things without thinking. Naruto also knows that even if he slightly wanted to get rid of some past things.. that it would just lead to more war at some point because he sees the past mistakes as not something that needs to be erased or written over, but just an example of what not to do.

If anything Sasuke is naive in his thinking, neither of them are really stupid. Sasuke is honestly being the next Obito right now and just fighting/talking to Naruto to confirm or disprove some things.
 

NaruSasuRival

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I think you are an idiot to criticize Naruto's plan saying he has no plan. It means you don't understand anything about his plan. So let me help you come out of your idiocy (sorry I am using the keyword in your post). Also, I want you to know that saying Naruto is an idiot means you think all the people who share his idea are idiot. This is why I am saying your are the biggest idiot.

This being said, prior to Hashirama, the narutoverse was just like our real world in the time of empires. Anyone who thought he was strong could build an army, attack another place, subdue them, and expand his dominion. Hashirama can be seen as the people who thought of a common worldwide organization to make rules aka UNO and continental organization.

Of course, just like Hashirama's case, since the organization was not well structure, there was still war. However, in the current state of the Shinobi alliance, a true worldwide organization such as UNO will be created and people will bring Shinobi from all over the nations to continue the Shinobi alliance. Therefore, if there are terrorist, it will be a common action against those terrorist just as we see in our current world.

Therefore, the reason why Hashirama's system failed was due to distrust among the nation and also the fact that he thought he could balance power leaving it to each country fearing equal destruction from possible aggression. On the other hand, Naruto's shinobi alliance can correct a single rebellious nation if such nation were to arise. This make Naruto's ideology a real-life solution to peace while Sasuke is nothing but an example of Hitler or the like of them. There is even no real-life matching example to Sasuke.
 

valandil988

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I think you are an idiot to criticize Naruto's plan saying he has no plan. It means you don't understand anything about his plan. So let me help you come out of your idiocy (sorry I am using the keyword in your post). Also, I want you to know that saying Naruto is an idiot means you think all the people who share his idea are idiot. This is why I am saying your are the biggest idiot.

This being said, prior to Hashirama, the narutoverse was just like our real world in the time of empires. Anyone who thought he was strong could build an army, attack another place, subdue them, and expand his dominion. Hashirama can be seen as the people who thought of a common worldwide organization to make rules aka UNO and continental organization.

Of course, just like Hashirama's case, since the organization was not well structure, there was still war. However, in the current state of the Shinobi alliance, a true worldwide organization such as UNO will be created and people will bring Shinobi from all over the nations to continue the Shinobi alliance. Therefore, if there are terrorist, it will be a common action against those terrorist just as we see in our current world.

Therefore, the reason why Hashirama's system failed was due to distrust among the nation and also the fact that he thought he could balance power leaving it to each country fearing equal destruction from possible aggression. On the other hand, Naruto's shinobi alliance can correct a single rebellious nation if such nation were to arise. This make Naruto's ideology a real-life solution to peace while Sasuke is nothing but an example of Hitler or the like of them. There is even no real-life matching example to Sasuke.

How mature I insult fictional characters and you jump to insulting me straight off for no reason but fanboyism. I like Naruto and I like Sasuke even if I do think they are being foolish.

Naruto's ideology if you believe it to be an actual ideology is simply this:

He has decided to do something, doesn't know what but it will DEFINITLY work.

Of course I don't define this as a plan he is far too stupid to come up with any plan that might work. He chooses to believe he will succeed that is half the battle but having an actual original idea to try and solve the problem is something obviously beyond him. That is something Sasuke has to help him with. Yin yang duh.

I suggested a plan that might be within his grasp in my post but you didn't address that you decided to go and moan on about Hashirama and his village system. All he did was make the wars larger and more devastating. He didn't bring peace at all you still have 6 & 10 year olds fighting wars. Some messiah he was.

Sorry to burst your bubble any ninja strong enough could raise his own village just like Orochimaru did. So nothing had changed from the pre-village clan war era. So stop making silly statements.

You also don't understand humans at all in anyway. Human memories are SHORT. Just look at the second world war do you remember what it was like to wage a war on that level how traumatic it was for those that fought it? Of course not. In the future do you believe your descendants might be foolish enough to rage another war of similar size and scope because the history is less immediate? Yes? Maybe? Possibly?

That means that experience is not cumulative it is transitory. True philosophical enlightenment is not something a civilization attains it is something a person attains. But in Naruto's case he can CHANGE the ball game; with his chakra sharing he can change humanity completely. If he can grant everyone emotion sensing he can change humanity for the better. If you give everyone empathy even the most hardened psychopaths will understand the emotions of those around them.

Will conflict still happen? Yes but in any real scope like a shinobi war? No the emotional pain of causing that much harm to your fellow man would debilitate you on the battle field. True empaths would not wage war.

The Shinobi alliance will not last, perhaps it might last a few generations before it falls apart. You must change humanity to attain peace there is no other way.
 
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From the Dark Spire

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1) The Uchiha would be fine because this time around Black Zetsu is sealed with his mother, whereas before he was in the shadows controlling the Uchiha so that one day his mother could come back.

2) We don't know what Naruto's plan is yet. He might not even have one right now. He might just be planning to make sure every is safe and things can begin to be rebuilt before he comes up with his final plan for the world and the people living in it. He's not as hasty as he used to be.

3) Sasuke is full of doubt in this chapter, of his own way of thinking. Read past what his speech bubbles say and read what he's thinking while he's talking. He doesn't fully believe in what he's saying, so he's trying to see if Naruto will confirm his final question on is he alone or not and if the current world is worth keeping (Obito...).

Building off on point #3.. Sasuke has a plan, but he doesn't have 100% confidence and also is just acting on his feelings without taking into account that there are other people in this world. Naruto on the other hand hasn't given a real solid plan for the future, just ideals to live by. That's because he doesn't want to rush this, he also doesn't want to totally get rid of things without thinking. Naruto also knows that even if he slightly wanted to get rid of some past things.. that it would just lead to more war at some point because he sees the past mistakes as not something that needs to be erased or written over, but just an example of what not to do.

If anything Sasuke is naive in his thinking, neither of them are really stupid. Sasuke is honestly being the next Obito right now and just fighting/talking to Naruto to confirm or disprove some things.
Wow, dude, just wow... I would've been okay with YOUR WHOLE post, if I didn't just see your signature.. Your signature contradicts EVERYTHING you just said in your post. You call Sasuke naive, yet it IS true if you can't sacrifice anything, you can't ever change anything.. Sasuke is MORE than willing to sacrifice whatever is necessary to get the job done...

Naruto is too much of a coward to sacrifice anything... He'd rather EVERYBODY live happily ever after. That's the most gayest plan ever.. And will most definately not work.. What happens after Naruto dies? Oh you just expect those that come after him to completely understand and follow in his footsteps???

It would be the sage of the six paths/Ashura/Indra story all over again..
 

From the Dark Spire

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I think you are an idiot to criticize Naruto's plan saying he has no plan. It means you don't understand anything about his plan. So let me help you come out of your idiocy (sorry I am using the keyword in your post). Also, I want you to know that saying Naruto is an idiot means you think all the people who share his idea are idiot. This is why I am saying your are the biggest idiot.

This being said, prior to Hashirama, the narutoverse was just like our real world in the time of empires. Anyone who thought he was strong could build an army, attack another place, subdue them, and expand his dominion. Hashirama can be seen as the people who thought of a common worldwide organization to make rules aka UNO and continental organization.

Of course, just like Hashirama's case, since the organization was not well structure, there was still war. However, in the current state of the Shinobi alliance, a true worldwide organization such as UNO will be created and people will bring Shinobi from all over the nations to continue the Shinobi alliance. Therefore, if there are terrorist, it will be a common action against those terrorist just as we see in our current world.

Therefore, the reason why Hashirama's system failed was due to distrust among the nation and also the fact that he thought he could balance power leaving it to each country fearing equal destruction from possible aggression. On the other hand, Naruto's shinobi alliance can correct a single rebellious nation if such nation were to arise. This make Naruto's ideology a real-life solution to peace while Sasuke is nothing but an example of Hitler or the like of them. There is even no real-life matching example to Sasuke.
You provided ABSOLUTELY NO explanation of Naruto's "plan".. You are an idiot who doesn't know what he's talking about. You just explained what is Hashirama's plan and how it failed... So how's Naruto going to fix internal and external conflict among the shinobi world? How will he pass judgements? What will he do that Sasuke won't do?
 

Jnaru

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Wow, dude, just wow... I would've been okay with YOUR WHOLE post, if I didn't just see your signature.. Your signature contradicts EVERYTHING you just said in your post. You call Sasuke naive, yet it IS true if you can't sacrifice anything, you can't ever change anything.. Sasuke is MORE than willing to sacrifice whatever is necessary to get the job done...

Naruto is too much of a coward to sacrifice anything... He'd rather EVERYBODY live happily ever after. That's the most gayest plan ever.. And will most definately not work.. What happens after Naruto dies? Oh you just expect those that come afI ter him to completely understand and follow in his footsteps???

It would be the sage of the six paths/Ashura/Indra story all over again..

Well the same applies to sauce plans.... Wat after he died .....
 

narutoblitz

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Ashura and Indra's chakra could be sealed with the sage tools. The TB could be sent to another dimension. Granted, I doubt either of those happens.

I'd like to see the movie pickup after the fight, and deal with how the world has (or has not) achieved peace.
 

bashkim

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Sasuke is in idiot not Naruto, because he considers him as his best friend. Where is the point to killing him. Madara could have make true peace during his life time, if he has choose the way of cooperation and not isolation.

Sasuke could cooperated with Naruto and created true peace and not fighting each other.
 
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