Why Rinnegan naturally follows EMS

[NarutoKage2]

Tell me this though why did madara plan so much and almost die to just get hasihrama's dna and get nothing in return that makes him like theso6p himself.

Also why did madara get the rinnegan and not the so6p older son?

What was different? What did madara do that the older son didnt?


I think you'll find madara had the younger son's dna(hasihrama) and so6p's older son didnt.


Also uchiha were based from the so6p's older son himself so his blood is far stronger related towards the so6p than any uchiha and still didnt get his father's eyes.

Well for starters he gets Izanagi, that's a reason unto itself.

We don't know if the Elder Son eventually got rinnegan, he might have till a few months ago we did'nt know Madara had got it.

 

[Honord Sage]

If you were correct then why has it taken a century for the Rinnegan to appeared? Only 3 people sines the SO6P have had it and one of them was not an Uchiha Nagato. If you were to go by your theory, prior to the Uchiha massacre, their should have ben a number of Uchiha with the Rinnegan, The Sharigan is a devolve Rinnegan because of the thin out Uchiha blood line, it requires and uses not only eye tech power but body power as well and no Uchiha on His own has ever ben able to get body power jutsu without adding the missing pice,Senju DNA, Ask yourself why has Kishi build up the story on Senju DNA if it's not important in getting the Rinnegan, why all the hard work on Orochimaru, Tobi and Madara to get it?

 

[NarutoKage2]

If you were correct then why has it taken a century for the Rinnegan to appeared? Only 3 people sines the SO6P have had it and one of them was not an Uchiha Nagato. If you were to go by your theory, prior to the Uchiha massacre, their should have ben a number of Uchiha with the Rinnegan, The Sharigan is a devolve Rinnegan because of the thin out Uchiha blood line, it requires and uses not only eye tech power but body power as well and no Uchiha on His own has ever ben able to get body power jutsu without adding the missing pice,Senju DNA, Ask yourself why has Kishi build up the story on Senju DNA if it's not important in getting the Rinnegan, why all the hard work on Orochimaru, Tobi and Madara to get it?

There is a whole history before the time of the leaf village, we don't know what happened then. It cud have been that many uchihas awakened MS and a few succeeded in getting to the rinnegan stage. Fyi, the rinnegan Nagato had was from Madara.
And by your logic i can say why was'nt there any wood user before Hashirama among the senjus? Now there could have been one prior to him that history is unknown.

 

[Honord Sage]

There is a whole history before the time of the leaf village, we don't know what happened then. It cud have been that many uchihas awakened MS and a few succeeded in getting to the rinnegan stage. Fyi, the rinnegan Nagato had was from Madara.
And by your logic i can say why was'nt there any wood user before Hashirama among the senjus? Now there could have been one prior to him that history is unknown.

Illogical if the Rinnegan had appeared in large numbers prior to the founding of the village their be no Senju, the Uchiha would have wipe them out long ago. Ergo no leaf village to found.

 

[psukkar]

There is a whole history before the time of the leaf village, we don't know what happened then. It cud have been that many uchihas awakened MS and a few succeeded in getting to the rinnegan stage. Fyi, the rinnegan Nagato had was from Madara.
And by your logic i can say why was'nt there any wood user before Hashirama among the senjus? Now there could have been one prior to him that history is unknown.

what me and honored sage are getting at, there's more evidence to suggest the sharingan into rinngean isnt a natural evolutiuon.

But like you said we really dont know but it seems likely the younger son + older son combined reproduces the so6p himself.

 

[NarutoKage2]

Illogical if the Rinnegan had appeared in large numbers prior to the founding of the village their be no Senju, the Uchiha would have wipe them out long ago. Ergo no leaf village to found.

O really? Naruto in sage mode beat most paths of Pain with the rinnegan.

Hashirama alone could take 3 Sage Naruto's at once(not clones).

Having a rinnegan is not the same as being on the level as the SO6P

 

[Honord Sage]

O really? Naruto in sage mode beat most paths of Pain with the rinnegan.

Hashirama alone could take 3 Sage Naruto's at once(not clones).

Having a rinnegan is not the same as being on the level as the SO6P

Naruto is more than a Toad Sage, Naruto is the SO6P, Thats were the manga is heading Naruto is the ultimate power that all must bow to.

 

[OWanime]

Agreed it's either this or madara's dna is strong like hashirama's is strongxd

 

[NarutoKage2]

Naruto is more than a Toad Sage, Naruto is the SO6P, Thats were the manga is heading Naruto is the ultimate power that all must bow to.

Yup well i can agree with you there. Frankly Sasuke is'nt even close to his level right now

Agreed it's either this or madara's dna is strong like hashirama's is strongxd

Err, ok.

 

[leafeater]

There seems to be some confusion regarding this so let me set the record straight: Awakening the rinnegan after acquiring EMS does NOT require senju DNA.



Why do i say this? Well let's analyze it. To begin with, i'm sure all of us can agree that the rinnegan is an eye power, correct? The Sage of the 6 Paths divided his power between his 2 sons, the Elder being the ascendant of the Uchiha and the Younger the ascendant of the Senju. But what were those powers, exactly? Here we are shown:

Spoiler

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'The Elder was born with the Sage's eyes...'
As it has been shown numerous times throughout the manga, the Sage's eyes were in fact the rinnegan. Now, i'm aware that the Uchiha clan and even the Elder Son himself had eyes that were not quite the same as the rinnegan. My theory :

The occular jutsu known as the sharingan, whether in its 2, 3 tomoe stage or the MS and the implanted EMS were lesser forms of the ultimate eyes, namely the eyes possessed by the Rikudo. Any uchiha clan member who would push himself to the zenith of his eye powers ability, who would achieve his ultimate genetic potential would ultimately awaken the Rinnegan. So the steps towards the achieving of this goal, from the emotional trigger of watching your best friend die(Mangekyuo) and then transplanting a fellow Uchiha's MS to achieve Eternal light(EMS) were simply rungs on the ladder to achieving the Rinnegan.

How i am confident about this is because we are told that ' He had entrusted two boys with the POWER and will of the way of the ninja'. Meaning that, as the Sage was the embodiment of the ultimate ninja in power, of both body and eyes, he gave out his full or entire abilities to these two sons in the order described,i.e eyes to the Elder, body to the younger. Basically, all the abilities or potential the Sage's eyes had(=rinnegan) the Elder son had, and all the abilities the Sage's body had(=the ability to be the jinchuriki of the 10 tails) the Younger son had.
Spoiler:

Spoiler

This is why i believe Naruto will become the host of the Juubi and Sasuke will acquire the Rinnegan.

Now, the confusion many people have was probably due to these pages:

Spoiler

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Ok, Edo Madara does say that i awakened these eyes(rinnegan) shortly before my death. We all believe that he acquired Hashirama's DNA at the Valley of the End, so some people have assumed that it was due to said cells that the rinnegan was awakened. False. Notice carefully what Kabuto says on the same page:
Just as i had guessed, what awaits you when you progress beyond the sharingan.....is the rinnegan
Keyword here is 'you'. Who is this 'you' exactly that Kabuto talks about...? It can't be himself(obviously) it can't be the senju, they don't have sharingan, clearly he refers to the Uchiha. Any given uchiha who progresses beyond the 4 varieties of sharingan will ultimately awaken the rinnegan. In such a statement, had there been other pre requisites like Senju dna cells, Kabuto would have mentioned it, as he was the one who implanted the Mokuuton cells (Hashi's face) onto Madara himself. The subsequent conversation Madara has with Kabuto that people mistakenly assume implies a connection with Madara's body and his rinnegan is in fact Edo Madara simply asking Kabuto what Hashi's face is doing on his body, i.e his mokuuton ability. Remember, the senju or body powers as we've seen from the last chapter are no joke utilized to their full potential that power is as strong as the Rinnegan itself.

First, the composition. I found this to be very clear, concise, and logical in its procession, so a nicely written argument. Further, you cite the manga clearly and properly reference it to support your argument. Everything is done in a tone of respect, and you seek to relieve "confusion" rather than slam people for which I applaud you whether right or wrong. This is how I think an original post ought to be written. +rep, with a future date, as I have to spread it around more before giving it back to you again (you're to good, lol .

As for the argument itself. I think you make a strong case, which is made even more robust by Fujin, whom I'll address later thanks to his corrected translation. The thing is, I have no doubt now with ET Madara that Rinnegan is the end of the line for the Sharingan, but I am bothered by some things, which others bring up. There's a kink in things put in by Kishi when he shows the elder son's eye's that are swirly and not a Rinnegan. Thus, I would think that that would be the end result of the EMS->Elder Son's Swirly Eye doujutsu.

Further, Madara read as much of that Uchiha tablet as he could with the EMS (sans the Rinnegan) before fighting Hashirama, so why was he so intent on getting a portion of his strength if Tobi's stated motivation for the fight is correct? What was the motivation for Madara vs. Hashirama, was it vengeance and power of Konoha or was it for Senju Hashirama's DNA and something in the Uchiha tablets about progressing his doujutsu? The source of his motivation comes from Tobi talking to Sasuke as if he was Madara, not Uchiha Madara himself, so people have to be careful when they claim Madara fought Hashirama for his DNA, as that may have been a secondary or accidental aim to the real Madara's true aim of the fight.

Further, I don't doubt that Madara believes that the Rinnegan is the final step in the process from EMS->Rinnegan, but there's the confound that he had a portion of Hashirama's DNA/strength at the time. However, we don't know the order of events. We don't know if the Rinnegan came first or second to gaining Hashirama's strength, though I suspect if came afterwards since he says he awakened it near his death. If he had awakened the next doujutsu sans Hashirama's DNA would he have awakened the swirly eyes of the elder son instead? I don't know. However, I think that the strongest argument against that is the independent research done by Kabuto and Orochimaru who independently believed that the EMS progressed to the Rinnegan, when Kabuto is thrilled to see his research bear fruit he states (using Fujin's translation), "Kabuto: It's just as I thought...... The sharingan's final step...... was the rinnegan."

Thus, you have ET Madara who indicates that his information of the EMS->Rinnegan from the Uchiha tablet, and you also have Orochimaru's/Kabuto's independent research for the EMS->Rinnegan, which is pretty powerful in the Narutoverse when you can get two independent confirming sources of information gathered in two completely different fashions.

Further, as the manga is now grammatically, it requires an explicit and direct statement that Senju Hashirama's DNA is needed for ET Madara's Rinnegan to awaken in order for the statement to be sound and correct logically as well. However, as it is currently stated as simply being a progression of the Sharingan, it doesn't require any further statements in the manga. This is a critical point that many people may feel is nitpicky, yet understanding language and logic are critical to our understanding of what is being said and the validity of the corresponding statement.

Anyway, nice job per usual and on a pertinent topic. While I don't think it closes the door, as only Kishi can, I think that it gives us a good idea of where this debate stands, and that may just be my personal opinion, but I think it's clear that those who believe that Senju Hashirama DNA is required have a much greater burden of proof, whereas those who believe that EMS->Rinnegan is a natural progression have a much lower burden of proof at this point in the manga. This translates to my siding with the concept the Rinnegan naturally proceeds the EMS at this point, but there's still many chapters to come, so we'll see. For now, again nice work, and an excellent job at providing a starting point for discussion.

:izuna:

Peace

Just to point something out, but there is no "you" in the line you've quoted in the Japanese script.

This is the line you're talking about.
カブト（ムウ）:　やはり憶測通り…　写輪眼の行きつく先は…　輪廻眼でしたか
Kabuto: It's just as I thought...... The sharingan's final step...... was the rinnegan.

So it's a pretty neutral statement, not really referencing anyone, but just talking purely about the eye itself.

Excellent job with the translation, I actually used it above, and cited you with emboldening your name when I did. It actually makes the argument in the OP stronger. +rep

Peace

I think it's a little too early to say what caused Madara's EMS to evolve into the Rinnegan. It obviously happened after the battle or at the very least at the very end of it, which is where Madara first got Hashirama's DNA. It's possible that he attained it by another dramatic emotional experience. But you cannot ignore that he may have obtained it by experimenting on the DNA he got and perhaps implementing it in an incomplete form caused him to get the rinnegan (maybe at the same time die?).

You're argument against this is that they should be able to get the complete doujutsu of the sage since thats what was originally given to the older son. But, it's possible that the genetic traits required to activate the rinnegan have become much weaker or are non-existent after so many generations and perhaps require a boost by senju DNA which may enhance those traits.

All I know is that Kishi will eventually show us how, most likely when Sasuke goes searching for more power or in that scroll Suigetsu found. Until then, nothing can be completely ruled out or confirmed.

Yeah, I think the road from EMS to Rinnegan is not 100% laid out but I think it's close, and you make some solid points. You've had some solid posts in this thread, unfortunately I could only rep you once.

Peace

Tell me this though why did madara plan so much and almost die to just get hasihrama's dna and get nothing in return that makes him like theso6p himself.

Also why did madara get the rinnegan and not the so6p older son?

What was different? What did madara do that the older son didnt?


I think you'll find madara had the younger son's dna(hasihrama) and so6p's older son didnt.


Also uchiha were based from the so6p's older son himself so his blood is far stronger related towards the so6p than any uchiha and still didnt get his father's eyes.

We know according to Tobi why Uchiha Madara went to fight Senju Hashirama, now he may have been correct, and gaining a portion of his strength (i.e. his DNA) was the driving motivation behind the fight, or Tobi not being the real Uchiha Madara was wrong and it was not. Perhaps Uchiha Madara fought Senju Hashirama for revenge and the rights to Konoha, and Hashirama's DNA was not his primary objective but at best secondary or just accidental? It's possible, as we can only speculate as to the real Madara's objectives, and not place Tobi's stated ones in his place given his known veracity, especially in that scene where he's talking to Sasuke.

If he was after Hashirama's DNA there are other reasons than the Rinnegan such as have been mentioned, which included perfect Izanagi and we still don't know how Madara ties into the plans Tobi has been working on exactly other than he knows about Nagato and Eternal Tsukiyomi. Further, when Tsunade learned that Tobi had Hashirama's DNA, she stated that he might truly be immortal, or something along those lines, meaning more towards the lines of longevity I believe rather than anything else. I forget the manga page and exact lines. Further, there's the obvious benefit of Mokutoun, and the list goes on.

Why did Madara get the Rinnegan and not the Elder son's swirly eye's? First, a lot of those questions you pose are beyond the scope of this thread and any thread that's ever been created on this forum due to the lack of knowledge given in the manga; thus you can't condemn the OP for that in your critique. To not have the answer to those questions is actually more correct than to have answers to them, unless they're in the form of a theory, and noted as speculation. Thus, not having answers does to them does not fault the OP.

My response here will be brief because I actually wrote a detailed response to this in my original post above, so please read that. I don't know, and I find that to be a kink in the flow of all of this. Why did the Elder son get the Swirly eye's to begin with as opposed to the Rinnegan? I don't know if having Hashirama's DNA made the difference, and I don't if he had it before awakening the Rinnegan. We know all too little about that night, but supposedly he survived and awakened the Rinnegan shortly before death, so I suppose that indicates that he got Hashirama's DNA first, which presents a confound, but a confound should not be confused with evidence for an alternate theory per se. Rather, the confound servers to take the level of certainty that the EMS->Rinnegan is the natural progression from 100% certainty or whatever level of certainty it has, and lowers it to give it a degree of uncertainty. I say the confound is not evidence per se, but that doesn't mean it can't serve as evidence if used properly, please note the distinction.

However, there's an independent convergence of though from Orochimaru/Kabuto and ET Madara (with the Uchiha tablets) that the EMS->Rinnegan is the natural progression without mention of Senju Hashirama's DNA being stated in the manga.

Thus, there's a burden of proof on those who believe that Senju Hashirama's DNA is required, since it's never stated as a requisite ever explicitly or directly, and the corollary that the EMS->Rinnegan is natural can hold up as the manga is currently written grammatically and logically, that the opposite view cannot unless (perhaps until) Kishi adds that to a future issue of the manga.

Peace

If you were correct then why has it taken a century for the Rinnegan to appeared? Only 3 people sines the SO6P have had it and one of them was not an Uchiha Nagato. If you were to go by your theory, prior to the Uchiha massacre, their should have ben a number of Uchiha with the Rinnegan, The Sharigan is a devolve Rinnegan because of the thin out Uchiha blood line, it requires and uses not only eye tech power but body power as well and no Uchiha on His own has ever ben able to get body power jutsu without adding the missing pice,Senju DNA, Ask yourself why has Kishi build up the story on Senju DNA if it's not important in getting the Rinnegan, why all the hard work on Orochimaru, Tobi and Madara to get it?

Why has it taken a century for the Rinnegan to appear, well, how long did it take the Uchiha to establish, and for one Uchiha to be strong enough to awaken the EMS, namely Uchiha Madara, maybe it took a century. There that fits your answer and timeline perfectly fine without any problems. Regarding Uzumaki Nagato, according to Tobi, Nagato was given those Rinnegan eyeballs, which may very well have been Uchiha Madara's, lol. We have a much better understanding as to how the Rinnegan is awakened in Uchiha Madara, backed by Orochimaru's/Kabuto's research than Nagato simply freaking out and poof he has the Rinnegan. Explain that. I mean that's a bit odd. It's a bit more parsimonious that Tobi simply gave him the Rinnegan especially since we now know that Uchiha Madara knew of Nagato somehow, which I find to be too strong a coincidence, albeit it makes the timeline wacky given Nagato and Minato were the same age I thought.

Going by his theory does not make it such that there are tons of Uchiha flying around with MS, EMS, and Rinnegan's crushing everyone with meteorites, lol. That's one of the silliest statements I've heard in a while, unless you were going for an ad absurdium argument, which failed since it was funny instead . Where have you been? Count the number of known MS user's, then the number of known EMS users, and finally the number of know Rinnegan users. Then do the operation of how many Rinnegan users actually awakened their Rinnegan from an EMS, and you get a 1. The rest appear to be transplants in the case of Nagato and Tobi, whom we don't know for sure what clan he is, though likely Uchiha with some Zetsu stuff going on.

Further, the Rinnegan has always been referred to as a doujutsu, thus your emboldened statement makes no sense. When has it ever been stated that it requires the body of the sage to wield the Rinnegan as well as the ocular powers? Nowhere? Again you're speculating without reference to the manga, substituting for fact, which you can't simply do and expect people not to call you on it. While it may be true, you have to wait for the manga to provide evidence, and until then please state it as a theory. Just as a habit, review your posts before submitting them, and make sure that what you've written is indeed fact, theory written as theory, speculation written as such, etc. and not speculation and/or theory written as fact. It will improve your writing immensely leading to better reception and acceptance of your views if they're legitimate, and people who are sticklers for people getting things correct won't be on you for this.

As stated to Psukarr in the above post, Hashirama's DNA has ton's of other uses, so please see that post and my original post regarding this issue because I'm not about to type it out a third time. My apologies.

Peace

Naruto is more than a Toad Sage, Naruto is the SO6P, Thats were the manga is heading Naruto is the ultimate power that all must bow to.

Where in the manga does it say that Naruto is the Rikudo Sennin (i.e. So6P's), nowhere? Perhaps he'll reach that point, perhaps he won't, it's nothing but speculation that you've printed as to where the manga is heading unless you're Kishimoto. Yes, Naruto's appearance in KM and BM, along with his recent talks with the Bijou's indicate that he'll play a role similar to the Rikudou Sennin, but that doesn't make him the Rikudou Sennin nor his reincarnation, that's quite a distinction. Further, the appearance makes him similar to the younger son of the Rikudou Sennin who had the body, sans the ocular powers. Can you see that?

Further, stating, "Naruto is the ultimate power that all must bow to" is simply wrong. Currently, he is not. He can last in BM, his most powerful form, for 5 minutes. I don't believe he could defeat and seal ET Madara 1 on 1 at this point and probably not Tobi 1 on 1. Will he reach that point, yes, the manga will not end with ET Madara taking over the world or Tobi casting Eternal Tsukiyomi, but you spread so much propaganda that it's pointless. Honestly, it really detracts from when you make solid posts to follow up with one like this that it's worth considering cutting down on it. Just a friendly suggestion. :hug:


Peace

 

[NarutoKage2]

First, the composition. I found this to be very clear, concise, and logical in its procession, so a nicely written argument. Further, you cite the manga clearly and properly reference it to support your argument. Everything is done in a tone of respect, and you seek to relieve "confusion" rather than slam people for which I applaud you whether right or wrong. This is how I think an original post ought to be written. +rep, with a future date, as I have to spread it around more before giving it back to you again (you're to good, lol .

As for the argument itself. I think you make a strong case, which is made even more robust by Fujin, whom I'll address later thanks to his corrected translation. The thing is, I have no doubt now with ET Madara that Rinnegan is the end of the line for the Sharingan, but I am bothered by some things, which others bring up. There's a kink in things put in by Kishi when he shows the elder son's eye's that are swirly and not a Rinnegan. Thus, I would think that that would be the end result of the EMS->Elder Son's Swirly Eye doujutsu.

Further, Madara read as much of that Uchiha tablet as he could with the EMS (sans the Rinnegan) before fighting Hashirama, so why was he so intent on getting a portion of his strength if Tobi's stated motivation for the fight is correct? What was the motivation for Madara vs. Hashirama, was it vengeance and power of Konoha or was it for Senju Hashirama's DNA and something in the Uchiha tablets about progressing his doujutsu? The source of his motivation comes from Tobi talking to Sasuke as if he was Madara, not Uchiha Madara himself, so people have to be careful when they claim Madara fought Hashirama for his DNA, as that may have been a secondary or accidental aim to the real Madara's true aim of the fight.

Further, I don't doubt that Madara believes that the Rinnegan is the final step in the process from EMS->Rinnegan, but there's the confound that he had a portion of Hashirama's DNA/strength at the time. However, we don't know the order of events. We don't know if the Rinnegan came first or second to gaining Hashirama's strength, though I suspect if came afterwards since he says he awakened it near his death. If he had awakened the next doujutsu sans Hashirama's DNA would he have awakened the swirly eyes of the elder son instead? I don't know. However, I think that the strongest argument against that is the independent research done by Kabuto and Orochimaru who independently believed that the EMS progressed to the Rinnegan, when Kabuto is thrilled to see his research bear fruit he states (using Fujin's translation), "Kabuto: It's just as I thought...... The sharingan's final step...... was the rinnegan."

Thus, you have ET Madara who indicates that his information of the EMS->Rinnegan from the Uchiha tablet, and you also have Orochimaru's/Kabuto's independent research for the EMS->Rinnegan, which is pretty powerful in the Narutoverse when you can get two independent confirming sources of information gathered in two completely different fashions.

Further, as the manga is now grammatically, it requires an explicit and direct statement that Senju Hashirama's DNA is needed for ET Madara's Rinnegan to awaken in order for the statement to be sound and correct logically as well. However, as it is currently stated as simply being a progression of the Sharingan, it doesn't require any further statements in the manga. This is a critical point that many people may feel is nitpicky, yet understanding language and logic are critical to our understanding of what is being said and the validity of the corresponding statement.

Anyway, nice job per usual and on a pertinent topic. While I don't think it closes the door, as only Kishi can, I think that it gives us a good idea of where this debate stands, and that may just be my personal opinion, but I think it's clear that those who believe that Senju Hashirama DNA is required have a much greater burden of proof, whereas those who believe that EMS->Rinnegan is a natural progression have a much lower burden of proof at this point in the manga. This translates to my siding with the concept the Rinnegan naturally proceeds the EMS at this point, but there's still many chapters to come, so we'll see. For now, again nice work, and an excellent job at providing a starting point for discussion.

:izuna:

Peace

Brilliant analysis once again, regardless of your stance on the issue your method of argument is balanced and logical almost to an extremity, lol.

Just to clarify my position on a few points: in my opinion, the reason for the showdown between Madara and Hashirama at the Valley of the End in the days of Konoha's infancy could have been 2 pronged:
1. To overthrow Hashirama and appoint himself as the Leaf Village's Hokage, thus eliminating any chance of future discrimination against the Uchiha as stated by Tobi,
2. To acquire Hashirama's DNA and to enrich himself with his powers.

Even if one were to entirely disregard the 1st point, it remains a fact that there are many uses to the 1st's DNA as you rightly pointed out. There's obviously the ability to use Mokutoon(wood release), besides the effects of longevity that those cells have(thank you for pointing that out, this fact completely skipped my mind), however one critical point that everyone seems to have missed out is: Izanagi. The ability to turn reality into illusion, the ultimate genjutsu cast on oneself. The power and scale of this jutsu was such that the SO6P was able to literally 'create' the 9 tailed beasts by dividing the massive chakra of the 10 tails. Given, the information we the reader possess on this was told by Tobi and may not entirely be accurate , nevertheless it is also true that Izanagi was shown to have been used by Danzo against Sasuke 10 times and later by Tobi when he faced Konan.

The thing is, and i'm speculating here but i believe that there is a possibility that if used with the rinnegan the effects of Izanagi are not the same as with the sharingan, i.e blindness or to have those eyes close permanently. One possible proof of this is the recent chapter where the Sage was shown talking to the 9 tailed beasts and i believe he still possessed his rinnegan despite clearly having used Izanagi to create them if there is any truth to what Kabuto told us.

Going through this made me think of another thing, again this is speculation but as you termed it the burden of proof may hopefully be light on this: namely that Madara, after acquiring Hashirama's DNA felt that the time was ripe once he had perfected himself in the use of that DNA(powers) to awaken the rinnegan, so that if there were to be any problem with performing Izanagi with rinnegan(something that was probably untried in the records of the Uchiha) he could have at least be confident that he was proficient in the use of his Senju powers which were needed to perform this jutsu.
Ok, this one is kinda out there, but my proposition is:What if Madara died, because the effects of attempting to perform Izanagi(the ability to perform this jutsu being the reason i believe he went after the 1st's DNA) with his newly awakened rinnegan were much more adverse than he had anticipated...?Perhaps there was a certain degree of perfection required that only the Sage had mastered, having both Senju and Uchiha traits from the outset.
Another thing that makes me lean toward this point: what was the cause of Madara's death? It was'nt the awakening of the rinnegan, as Edo Madara showed no side affects to its awakening in the slightest.

P.S: i would really appreciate you're opinion/input, leafeater on this theory that i honestly just came up with in the course of composing this post, lol.

 

[Honord Sage]

Prediction to all to all by the end of Manga Naruto will be the power that be,Disagree at your own peril. Fortune favors the bold not the hesitant, nor the fearful.

 

[StrifeMaccy]

Madara most likely wanted Senju DNA to enhance his stamina and chakra reserves making him capable of using his powers for longer and maybe a more effective jinchuriki

Excellent argument good sir!

 

[Ryuu..]

ERM, but when have you told us how you achieve the Rinnegan (If it doesn't require the DNA of the Senju)?

 

[Sethic]

There seems to be some confusion regarding this so let me set the record straight: Awakening the rinnegan after acquiring EMS does NOT require senju DNA.



Why do i say this? Well let's analyze it. To begin with, i'm sure all of us can agree that the rinnegan is an eye power, correct? The Sage of the 6 Paths divided his power between his 2 sons, the Elder being the ascendant of the Uchiha and the Younger the ascendant of the Senju. But what were those powers, exactly? Here we are shown:

Spoiler

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'The Elder was born with the Sage's eyes...'
As it has been shown numerous times throughout the manga, the Sage's eyes were in fact the rinnegan. Now, i'm aware that the Uchiha clan and even the Elder Son himself had eyes that were not quite the same as the rinnegan. My theory :

The occular jutsu known as the sharingan, whether in its 2, 3 tomoe stage or the MS and the implanted EMS were lesser forms of the ultimate eyes, namely the eyes possessed by the Rikudo. Any uchiha clan member who would push himself to the zenith of his eye powers ability, who would achieve his ultimate genetic potential would ultimately awaken the Rinnegan. So the steps towards the achieving of this goal, from the emotional trigger of watching your best friend die(Mangekyuo) and then transplanting a fellow Uchiha's MS to achieve Eternal light(EMS) were simply rungs on the ladder to achieving the Rinnegan.

How i am confident about this is because we are told that ' He had entrusted two boys with the POWER and will of the way of the ninja'. Meaning that, as the Sage was the embodiment of the ultimate ninja in power, of both body and eyes, he gave out his full or entire abilities to these two sons in the order described,i.e eyes to the Elder, body to the younger. Basically, all the abilities or potential the Sage's eyes had(=rinnegan) the Elder son had, and all the abilities the Sage's body had(=the ability to be the jinchuriki of the 10 tails) the Younger son had.
Spoiler:

Spoiler

This is why i believe Naruto will become the host of the Juubi and Sasuke will acquire the Rinnegan.

Now, the confusion many people have was probably due to these pages:

Spoiler

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Ok, Edo Madara does say that i awakened these eyes(rinnegan) shortly before my death. We all believe that he acquired Hashirama's DNA at the Valley of the End, so some people have assumed that it was due to said cells that the rinnegan was awakened. False. Notice carefully what Kabuto says on the same page:
Just as i had guessed, what awaits you when you progress beyond the sharingan.....is the rinnegan
Keyword here is 'you'. Who is this 'you' exactly that Kabuto talks about...? It can't be himself(obviously) it can't be the senju, they don't have sharingan, clearly he refers to the Uchiha. Any given uchiha who progresses beyond the 4 varieties of sharingan will ultimately awaken the rinnegan. In such a statement, had there been other pre requisites like Senju dna cells, Kabuto would have mentioned it, as he was the one who implanted the Mokuuton cells (Hashi's face) onto Madara himself. The subsequent conversation Madara has with Kabuto that people mistakenly assume implies a connection with Madara's body and his rinnegan is in fact Edo Madara simply asking Kabuto what Hashi's face is doing on his body, i.e his mokuuton ability. Remember, the senju or body powers as we've seen from the last chapter are no joke utilized to their full potential that power is as strong as the Rinnegan itself.

ya, but you need to use the life energy of the Senju clan in order to use it more then once. Kinda like shisui's eye could only be used once a decade, unless the user had a way to augment the process such as with Hashirama Senju's cells, thereby drastically reducing the time required from ten years to only a few hours. Its hard to believe a Uchiha could use the rinnegan more often then the Mangekyō Sharingan. Thats why they gave the rinnegan to Nagato, also they were hoping he would bring Madara back, and also why Madara has Hashirama dna cells.

You are right, Awakening the rinnegan after acquiring EMS does NOT require senju DNA, but to keep using it you do!

 

[Qcks]

ERM, but when have you told us how you achieve the Rinnegan (If it doesn't require the DNA of the Senju)?

I think OP's point is that hard work unlocks it.

I disagree, but, this is his thread, and he has been fairly cordial in stating his opinion.

The one critique i have of this thread is that none of the evidence shown actually opposes the idea that you need Senju DNA to unlock the Rinnegan, but people are certainly entitled to their opinion.

 

[NarutoKage2]

ERM, but when have you told us how you achieve the Rinnegan (If it doesn't require the DNA of the Senju)?

There is no hard evidence given in the manga which shows exactly how this process occurs and to claim i had knowledge of the exact method would be stating speculation as fact which is BS, no? The scope of this thread is to prove that senju DNA is not a pre requisite, nothing more. The rest is just speculative, i do however intend on making a separate thread on this topic, i might do it after the next manga.

 

[Easyfathom]

sharigan is a genetic devolution of the rinnengan, just like byakugan is a devolution of the sharigan. you don't see neji's eyes or any other hard working byakugan user gaining sharigan. you can't just work hard to train your eyes to rinnengan. their eyes aren't pokemon they don't just evolve
now not to say that senju dna is required, MS and EMS require something as you said so if it is possible for the sharigan to become rinnengan there has to be a catalyst. just like pain of losing your friend: MS and implanting your brother's eyes: EMS

I don't 100% think that it is Hashi's genes that awakened it but it a possibility.
This statement above is a perfect way to put things

 

[Ryuu..]

There is no hard evidence given in the manga which shows exactly how this process occurs and to claim i had knowledge of the exact method would be stating speculation as fact which is BS, no? The scope of this thread is to prove that senju DNA is not a pre requisite, nothing more. The rest is just speculative, i do however intend on making a separate thread on this topic, i might do it after the next manga.

Hmm but you see, what have you said which discredits the idea that Senju DNA is infact significant in the development of this particular dojutsu?

 

[NarutoKage2]

Hmm but you see, what have you said which discredits the idea that Senju DNA is infact significant in the development of this particular dojutsu?

If you go through the OP and my posts in this thread you'll get an idea as i cannot list all those points again.

Basically, the statements about the SO6p's two sons given in the manga and the research done by Kabuto/Orochimaru and Edo Madara's statements in this connection.