Why Rinnegan naturally follows EMS

[NarutoKage2]

There seems to be some confusion regarding this so let me set the record straight: Awakening the rinnegan after acquiring EMS does NOT require senju DNA.



Why do i say this? Well let's analyze it. To begin with, i'm sure all of us can agree that the rinnegan is an eye power, correct? The Sage of the 6 Paths divided his power between his 2 sons, the Elder being the ascendant of the Uchiha and the Younger the ascendant of the Senju. But what were those powers, exactly? Here we are shown:

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'The Elder was born with the Sage's eyes...'
As it has been shown numerous times throughout the manga, the Sage's eyes were in fact the rinnegan. Now, i'm aware that the Uchiha clan and even the Elder Son himself had eyes that were not quite the same as the rinnegan. My theory :

The occular jutsu known as the sharingan, whether in its 2, 3 tomoe stage or the MS and the implanted EMS were lesser forms of the ultimate eyes, namely the eyes possessed by the Rikudo. Any uchiha clan member who would push himself to the zenith of his eye powers ability, who would achieve his ultimate genetic potential would ultimately awaken the Rinnegan. So the steps towards the achieving of this goal, from the emotional trigger of watching your best friend die(Mangekyuo) and then transplanting a fellow Uchiha's MS to achieve Eternal light(EMS) were simply rungs on the ladder to achieving the Rinnegan.

How i am confident about this is because we are told that ' He had entrusted two boys with the POWER and will of the way of the ninja'. Meaning that, as the Sage was the embodiment of the ultimate ninja in power, of both body and eyes, he gave out his full or entire abilities to these two sons in the order described,i.e eyes to the Elder, body to the younger. Basically, all the abilities or potential the Sage's eyes had(=rinnegan) the Elder son had, and all the abilities the Sage's body had(=the ability to be the jinchuriki of the 10 tails) the Younger son had.
Spoiler:

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This is why i believe Naruto will become the host of the Juubi and Sasuke will acquire the Rinnegan.

Now, the confusion many people have was probably due to these pages:

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Ok, Edo Madara does say that i awakened these eyes(rinnegan) shortly before my death. We all believe that he acquired Hashirama's DNA at the Valley of the End, so some people have assumed that it was due to said cells that the rinnegan was awakened. False. Notice carefully what Kabuto says on the same page:
Just as i had guessed, what awaits you when you progress beyond the sharingan.....is the rinnegan
Keyword here is 'you'. Who is this 'you' exactly that Kabuto talks about...? It can't be himself(obviously) it can't be the senju, they don't have sharingan, clearly he refers to the Uchiha. Any given uchiha who progresses beyond the 4 varieties of sharingan will ultimately awaken the rinnegan. In such a statement, had there been other pre requisites like Senju dna cells, Kabuto would have mentioned it, as he was the one who implanted the Mokuuton cells (Hashi's face) onto Madara himself. The subsequent conversation Madara has with Kabuto that people mistakenly assume implies a connection with Madara's body and his rinnegan is in fact Edo Madara simply asking Kabuto what Hashi's face is doing on his body, i.e his mokuuton ability. Remember, the senju or body powers as we've seen from the last chapter are no joke utilized to their full potential that power is as strong as the Rinnegan itself.

 

[The Jess Dogs]

good theory and good arguments

 

[Uchiha Prophet]

U!! my good sir are my best friend now!!
:scorps:

 

[Only naruto and nagato]

nice theory..i appreciate it..lol

 

[Fujin]

Just to point something out, but there is no "you" in the line you've quoted in the Japanese script.

This is the line you're talking about.
カブト（ムウ）:　やはり憶測通り…　写輪眼の行きつく先は…　輪廻眼でしたか
Kabuto: It's just as I thought...... The sharingan's final step...... was the rinnegan.

So it's a pretty neutral statement, not really referencing anyone, but just talking purely about the eye itself.

 

[freestyle392]

sharigan is a genetic devolution of the rinnengan, just like byakugan is a devolution of the sharigan. you don't see neji's eyes or any other hard working byakugan user gaining sharigan. you can't just work hard to train your eyes to rinnengan. their eyes aren't pokemon they don't just evolve
now not to say that senju dna is required, MS and EMS require something as you said so if it is possible for the sharigan to become rinnengan there has to be a catalyst. just like pain of losing your friend: MS and implanting your brother's eyes: EMS

 

[NarutoKage2]

Just to point something out, but there is no "you" in the line you've quoted in the Japanese script.

This is the line you're talking about.
カブト（ムウ）:　やはり憶測通り…　写輪眼の行きつく先は…　輪廻眼でしたか
Kabuto: It's just as I thought...... The sharingan's final step...... was the rinnegan.

So it's a pretty neutral statement, not really referencing anyone, but just talking purely about the eye itself.

I did consider that there may be a translation problem in the texts. But nonetheless, you're version actually helps to support the case for the rinnegan being a natural evolution of the sharingan by itself even more. Thanks.

 

[NarutoKage2]

sharigan is a genetic devolution of the rinnengan, just like byakugan is a devolution of the sharigan. you don't see neji's eyes or any other hard working byakugan user gaining sharigan. you can't just work hard to train your eyes to rinnengan. their eyes aren't pokemon they don't just evolve
now not to say that senju dna is required, MS and EMS require something as you said so if it is possible for the sharigan to become rinnengan there has to be a catalyst. just like pain of losing your friend: MS and implanting your brother's eyes: EMS

Its not about hard work there is a specific method to awaken the MS and EMS and a similar tech may exist for the progression towards Rinnegan however the purpose of this thread is to demonstrate its not related to Senju dna.

 

[Fujin]

I think it's a little too early to say what caused Madara's EMS to evolve into the Rinnegan. It obviously happened after the battle or at the very least at the very end of it, which is where Madara first got Hashirama's DNA. It's possible that he attained it by another dramatic emotional experience. But you cannot ignore that he may have obtained it by experimenting on the DNA he got and perhaps implementing it in an incomplete form caused him to get the rinnegan (maybe at the same time die?).

You're argument against this is that they should be able to get the complete doujutsu of the sage since thats what was originally given to the older son. But, it's possible that the genetic traits required to activate the rinnegan have become much weaker or are non-existent after so many generations and perhaps require a boost by senju DNA which may enhance those traits.

All I know is that Kishi will eventually show us how, most likely when Sasuke goes searching for more power or in that scroll Suigetsu found. Until then, nothing can be completely ruled out or confirmed.

 

[NarutoKage2]

I think it's a little too early to say what caused Madara's EMS to evolve into the Rinnegan. It obviously happened after the battle or at the very least at the very end of it, which is where Madara first got Hashirama's DNA. It's possible that he attained it by another dramatic emotional experience. But you cannot ignore that he may have obtained it by experimenting on the DNA he got and perhaps implementing it in an incomplete form caused him to get the rinnegan (maybe at the same time die?).

You're argument against this is that they should be able to get the complete doujutsu of the sage since thats what was originally given to the older son. But, it's possible that the genetic traits required to activate the rinnegan have become much weaker or are non-existent after so many generations and perhaps require a boost by senju DNA which may enhance those traits.

All I know is that Kishi will eventually show us how, most likely when Sasuke goes searching for more power or in that scroll Suigetsu found. Until then, nothing can be completely ruled out or confirmed.

Ah, but this is where you are mistaken. The genetic traits that would enhance the occular abilities of Madara towards the achievement of the rinnegan would have to be more uchiha DNA, as occular abilities are a function of the Elder son's genes, not the younger.

 

[Fujin]

Ah, but this is where you are mistaken. The genetic traits that would enhance the occular abilities of Madara towards the achievement of the rinnegan would have to be more uchiha DNA, as occular abilities are a function of the Elder son's genes, not the younger.

Not necessarily true. The original brothers DNA would have been incredibly close. Despite that fact, they had completely different powers with no crossovers. So it's not quite as simple as saying there is a rinnegan gene and the younger brother never had it, it may just be a combination which could mean that the thing that allows the sharingan to progress is the genes that the brothers shared. Perhaps the shared genes acted as a support to the specific genes that cause their powers.

I'm not quite sure why I'm arguing this point anyway, I'm not really sided either way. My main point is, is that Kishi could just make up some bs argument which could blow this straight out of the water, considering this is just mainly based on speculation. Whether he chooses to use real world logic to explain it or 'manga' logic is anyones guess.

 

[KakaTenzou]

Just to point something out, but there is no "you" in the line you've quoted in the Japanese script.

This is the line you're talking about.
カブト（ムウ）:　やはり憶測通り…　写輪眼の行きつく先は…　輪廻眼でしたか
Kabuto: It's just as I thought...... The sharingan's final step...... was the rinnegan.

So it's a pretty neutral statement, not really referencing anyone, but just talking purely about the eye itself.

pwned

 

[NarutoKage2]

Not necessarily true. The original brothers DNA would have been incredibly close. Despite that fact, they had completely different powers with no crossovers. So it's not quite as simple as saying there is a rinnegan gene and the younger brother never had it, it may just be a combination which could mean that the thing that allows the sharingan to progress is the genes that the brothers shared. Perhaps the shared genes acted as a support to the specific genes that cause their powers.

I'm not quite sure why I'm arguing this point anyway, I'm not really sided either way. My main point is, is that Kishi could just make up some bs argument which could blow this straight out of the water, considering this is just mainly based on speculation. Whether he chooses to use real world logic to explain it or 'manga' logic is anyones guess.

The fact nevertheless remains that if Kishi chooses to stick by the logic that is both stated and implied in the manga thus far, then:
1. The Elder son had the Sage's eye powers
2. His descendants have been shown to also have eye powers
3. The younger son had the Sage's body's powers
4. The descendants of the Younger son inherited the same.
5. There are no known instances where an uchiha showed a natural tendency to have senju abilities, or no known instance where a senju showed an innate tendency to have eye powers, a must for there to be a link in their genes.

These 2 clans were the point where the tree branched off. Their characteristics were unique. If you look at evolution, birds are related to fish as they had common ancestry eons ago. Yet flight remains unique to one, and swimming in the oceans to the other.
I think a similar sort of situation exists here, minus the huge difference that while in evolution the ultimate potential of a species is realized subsequently, here the ultimate potential(the Sage) pre existed and subsequent developments drifted away from, rather than realized the ultimate potential.

Yeah, kishi could just be trolling for all we know but so far the Elder son's genes/traits have been occular abilities and the younger son's traits physical abilities. Like you said, they had no crossovers and their abilities are clearly kept in 2 separate categories that don't overlap, think of them as diverging lines, lol. Now, whatever else we may believe is required to achieve it the rinnegan is an occular doujutsu as stated in both the manga and the databooks written by kishi. It was also the eye of the Sage, from which the Uchiha descended and who's eye powers they were stated to have inherited. Senju dna, which is a divergent branch of the Sage's dna used to enhance the occular potential of the uchihas makes about as much sense as a sharingan being implanted on Naruto(or Hashirama if you like) to enhance their abilities. It just does'nt fit.

 

[Fujin]

The fact nevertheless remains that if Kishi chooses to stick by the logic that is both stated and implied in the manga thus far, then:
1. The Elder son had the Sage's eye powers
2. His descendants have been shown to also have eye powers
3. The younger son had the Sage's body's powers
4. The descendants of the Younger son inherited the same.
5. There are no known instances where an uchiha showed a natural tendency to have senju abilities, or no known instance where a senju showed an innate tendency to have eye powers, a must for there to be a link in their genes.

These 2 clans were the point where the tree branched off. Their characteristics were unique. If you look at evolution, birds are related to fish as they had common ancestry eons ago. Yet flight remains unique to one, and swimming in the oceans to the other.
I think a similar sort of situation exists here, minus the huge difference that while in evolution the ultimate potential of a species is realized subsequently, here the ultimate potential(the Sage) pre existed and subsequent developments drifted away from, rather than realized the ultimate potential.

Erg.... You do realise that the term brothers implies they have very similar genes? You can see that they even look like each other! I didn't say anywhere just because their genes were close that there would be a crossover in powers. Most of the genes in the body don't even account for any noticeable change. But if you change the right couple of genes something completely different would be made. The amount of time required for both brothers clans to have no relation to each other anymore would be thousands if not ten's of thousands of years. You cannot just divide their DNA and say this is Uchiha and this is Senju, since they derived from the same source, there has to be some crossover in genes (not necessarily powers).

 

[Fujin]

Yeah, kishi could just be trolling for all we know but so far the Elder son's genes/traits have been occular abilities and the younger son's traits physical abilities. Like you said, they had no crossovers and their abilities are clearly kept in 2 separate categories that don't overlap, think of them as diverging lines, lol. Now, whatever else we may believe is required to achieve it the rinnegan is an occular doujutsu as stated in both the manga and the databooks written by kishi. It was also the eye of the Sage, from which the Uchiha descended and who's eye powers they were stated to have inherited. Senju dna, which is a divergent branch of the Sage's dna used to enhance the occular potential of the uchihas makes about as much sense as a sharingan being implanted on Naruto(or Hashirama if you like) to enhance their abilities. It just does'nt fit.

At this stage we're not 100% sure what the younger brother was originally capable of, compared to the uchihas whose abilities have been almost completely explored. It may not be that they need each others powers (such as the sharingan), but it might just be DNA or chakra that they are after. Considering that the sharingan is primarily yin based, yang might be required to unlock the rinnegan. In saying that though, I have no ideas as to what adding yin would do to a senju. Anyway, I really am just starting to make up crap to show thats there is many possible ways of explaining how he got the rinnegan. Your argument just doesn't convince me. But honestly it would take the manga explicitly stating it to make me believe it. :shrug:

 

[NarutoKage2]

Erg.... You do realise that the term brothers implies they have very similar genes? You can see that they even look like each other! I didn't say anywhere just because their genes were close that there would be a crossover in powers. Most of the genes in the body don't even account for any noticeable change. But if you change the right couple of genes something completely different would be made. The amount of time required for both brothers clans to have no relation to each other anymore would be thousands if not ten's of thousands of years. You cannot just divide their DNA and say this is Uchiha and this is Senju, since they derived from the same source, there has to be some crossover in genes (not necessarily powers).

Bolded^
That is exactly what kishi has done, lol. Deal with it.

Once you get that through, then look at this again. Now, there is no timeline given in the manga for just how long ago the Sage lived to the current setting. There have been about 5 generations that have passed since the founding of Konoha, however both clans had already been diversified greatly by that point. And so what if they were brothers? Their abilities are completely different, as shown by the generations of clanmembers that have been shown to have passed. By what logic do you claim that one group's dna will help to boost the powers of any given individual of the other group?

And about there being some link, that is inevitable and even in powers is shown to exist in the form of izanagi, not just genes.

HOWEVER, linking super powers with genes has to be done very carefully, as that is exactly what we are doing here and without which we would'nt be having this argument. Now, to achieve a given potential that is the ultimate excellence in eye abilities, why would an uchiha need to go back to their long lost brothers?
Its like saying to fly above 3000 feet birds need to get injected with fish blood. No connection, and in the context of the manga(which is our subject of discussion) lets not forget that so far, to achieve:
2 tomoe sharingan: emotional trauma
3 tomoe sharingan: stress/trauma
MS: death of closest friend
EMS: Eyes(DNA..?) of other MS user(both cases shown to be that of an immediate brother)
None of those require any non uchiha DNA.

 

[Fire fist]

Nice theory,I guess

 

[Fujin]

Bolded^
That is exactly what kishi has done, lol. Deal with it.

Once you get that through, then look at this again. Now, there is no timeline given in the manga for just how long ago the Sage lived to the current setting. There have been about 5 generations that have passed since the founding of Konoha, however both clans had already been diversified greatly by that point. And so what if they were brothers? Their abilities are completely different, as shown by the generations of clanmembers that have been shown to have passed. By what logic do you claim that one group's dna will help to boost the powers of any given individual of the other group?

And about there being some link, that is inevitable and even in powers is shown to exist in the form of izanagi, not just genes.

HOWEVER, linking super powers with genes has to be done very carefully, as that is exactly what we are doing here and without which we would'nt be having this argument. Now, to achieve a given potential that is the ultimate excellence in eye abilities, why would an uchiha need to go back to their long lost brothers?
Its like saying to fly above 3000 feet birds need to get injected with fish blood. No connection, and in the context of the manga(which is our subject of discussion) lets not forget that so far, to achieve:
2 tomoe sharingan: emotional trauma
3 tomoe sharingan: stress/trauma
MS: death of closest friend
EMS: Eyes(DNA..?) of other MS user(both cases shown to be that of an immediate brother)
None of those require any non uchiha DNA.

You see the Uchihas and Senjus as completely different. The way I think of it, its bringing the person whose being modified closer to the sages original DNA/chakra/whatever. Which would be more like cross breeding apples and pears to make Nashi Pear's which surpass both (depending on opinion ). I see your point though, that the uchihas shouldn't need any outside source of power to do what they have already done (getting better doujutsus) many times before. But its possible that option is no longer achievable by themselves since their genes are more watered down than the older brothers. If you are so certain that the rinnegan can be achieved without any modification, how do you suppose it is achieved? Surely it doesn't just happen. What else could Madara have gone through, he killed his best friend and he maimed his brother. Not much gets worse than that.

 

[NarutoKage2]

Nice theory,I guess

Thanks

You see the Uchihas and Senjus as completely different. The way I think of it, its bringing the person whose being modified closer to the sages original DNA/chakra/whatever. Which would be more like cross breeding apples and pears to make Nashi Pear's which surpass both (depending on opinion ). I see your point though, that the uchihas shouldn't need any outside source of power to do what they have already done (getting better doujutsus) many times before. But its possible that option is no longer achievable by themselves since their genes are more watered down than the older brothers. If you are so certain that the rinnegan can be achieved without any modification, how do you suppose it is achieved? Surely it doesn't just happen. What else could Madara have gone through, he killed his best friend and he maimed his brother. Not much gets worse than that.

It could be a variety of things. Its a whole other theory for which i might make another thread about what the triggering force/factor could be as you're quite right in stating that if not senju dna it has to be something.
The first 2 experiences of Madara that you list triggered his MS and then EMS, not his rinnegan.

Perhaps it was related to the conditions which caused his death, as he said that he awoke it slightly before that time.

Another thing, one thing is beyond dispute: only an EMS user can awaken the rinnegan. Why? Because Tobi has senju DNA, and he still needed to transplant Nagato's rinnegan as he clearly could'nt awaken it with the use of either of his sharingans.

 

[psukkar]

Tell me this though why did madara plan so much and almost die to just get hasihrama's dna and get nothing in return that makes him like theso6p himself.

Also why did madara get the rinnegan and not the so6p older son?

What was different? What did madara do that the older son didnt?


I think you'll find madara had the younger son's dna(hasihrama) and so6p's older son didnt.


Also uchiha were based from the so6p's older son himself so his blood is far stronger related towards the so6p than any uchiha and still didnt get his father's eyes.