Why I think Reality Simulation Genjutsu is Broken in a 1v1 match.

[BlackDude]

I agree

 

[~Uzumaki~]

This is all just Sharingan genjutsu. U_U

 

[Owarij]

This is all just Sharingan genjutsu. U_U

lmaooo check the minato v itachi thread, my last post

 

[antenna]

its really only the uchiha who make genjutsu seem so OP. im still wondering what hashirama did to counter madaras genjutsu..


there is probably a way to counter powerful genjutsu like tsukyomi without being an uchiha yourself or a jinkuuriki(sp)

 

[Baka Sennin]

yeah it's a very powerful ability. I haven't really made the effort to wholly understand genjutsu tbh as it ruins itachi's fights imo (exceptions include the first time itachi used tsukuyomi and the itachi-sasuke genjutsu battle which was awesome), but yeah the way itachi uses genjutsu is ridiculously overpowered. however, for the most part the caster of the genjutsu cannot move himself from what i've seen (which brings obvious disadvantages) , the ones in which the caster can move freely are fairly weak and easily broken

of course, they're hard to detect and even if they're broken it still grants you a split second advantage which can be invaluable in a fight, especially when the user is as speedy as itachi or sasuke.

the one thing I disagree with is what you mentioned about the victim staying motionless, that only seems to be a feature of a. paralyzing genjutsu which is in another class and easily detectable and b. izanami- which is a higher level of genjutsu and costs a MS eye. not that it makes a big difference when the victim is flailing in his own world while the caster is bearing down upon him, but still the movement can be used to disguise that the genjutsu has been broken to form a counterattack.

if you fight that level of genjutsu user carelessly it's definitely game over. Orochimaru while very competent is incredibly arrogant leading to his downfall three times, and Deidara, Bee and Naruto are took cocky for their own good and the last two are kind of dumb, leading to them being prime candidates to be trapped in stuff like that. Danzou was an odd case, but i think what Tobi said holds true; he was able to detect Sasuke's genjutsu, but by having the sharingan he underestimated Sasuke's prowess with it, the key is how it's used.

all in all, it's an ability to put the user above similarly skilled opponents and make it look easy. to fight it, you need a. bunshin or b. finely developed chakra control and sensing abilities like say, Hiruzen. it's an unfair ability to be sure, it and speed are the biggest advantages one can have in naruto imo.

 

[Owarij]

I was just over in another forum and came coincidentally came across a thread talking about obvious and subtle genjutsu... most of the members their agree subtle genjutsu is basically too op for the show, which is why it isn't used alot..after the first once or twice, having fights end in minutes would be annoying

This is a good post to read by one of the members
Credits to Arthas and Narutoshion4ever

Consider the following Example:

Imagine if Sakura was fighting Rock Lee and throws a smoke bomb in front of herself. Lee (not being a total idiot) blocks/dodges the few idly tossed shuriken headed his way and waits for the smoke to dissipate. He sees Sakura holding a kunai outward in her left hand and charges forward to take his love out quickly with one punch to the right side of her face. He feels his punch miss at the same time he feels a stabbing pain near his heart. The Genjutsu: A simple one where the image of Sakura was displaced a small distance to the side of her actual position. Lee wasn't even aware of it and he ran himself straight onto Sakura's kunai.

If the above example had happened then the outcry of "Sakura won because of a cheap trick" and "Rock Lee is stronger" would be over-whelming. Now think of what would happen if she went on to do something similar to other characters. The only way they could win would be if she made a mistake with the genjutsu as in not making it realistic enough so they could recognise it.

Essentially that's what Subtle genjutsu is: A Trick. You trick the opponent into a situation favorable to your self. What makes it worse is that the since the core benifit of this is a trick, then once the trick is recognised it becomes nearly worthless. For D&D players there is a term for this: Save Or Suck. You either roll the dice and your Safe (completely unharmed) or you Suck (completely dead) with almost no inbetween.

However the main problem with Subtle Genjutsu lies not with the genjutsu but with us the fans and to a certain extent the author. There is only so often that a trick can be enjoyable (The first whoopie cushion *might* be funny, the 2nd onwards one is annoying). Then there is the problem of whether to reveal the genjutsu to the fans or not. It's disappointing to see Gai unleash all the gates on an opponent only to find in the end the opponent was a genjutsu and the real opponent is unharmed while Gai is dying. However imagine what it might be like to see it from the opponent's prespective, to know it was a genjutsu but see Gai use all the gates one by one, to give the fight of his life knowing it was worthless all the while.

The fans need to have a taste for this type of illusion and the author needs skill to pull it off.

Exactly. There's a reason genjutsu is only used by antagonists. And even they use it sparsely.

I disagree that it's just a trick. Genjutsu is very different from a Bunshin Feint. Within the confines of the fictional world, genjutsu is not so different from other chakra attacks. What genjutsu needs, is an in-universe weakness. The time is takes to break a genjutsu is more than enough to get you killed; or get a friend killed if you need help breaking a genjutsu.

Genjutsu is a plot device and Kishimoto knows it. That's why he never bothered to make it a realistic power within his fictional universe.

Non-Uchiha. Agreed. It doesn't seem to help if you have a sharingan eye. You need to be an Uchiha.

The Yamanaka clan have body-control techniques. Genjutsu is mind control and body control, although it's mainly used to freeze the body in place. Kishimoto never bothered to connect these similar kind of techniques. Both seem to be man-in-the-middle-attacks; they attack the connection between the mind and the body.

I wish that it was stated that genjutsu only works when the chakra control of the caster is better than the victim's. This would allow characters like Sakura to be immune to almost all genjutsu. And Sensor-type ninja should be able to dodge a genjutsu attack like normal people dodge a Katon. Sigh.

Genjutsu iss more broken than the sharingan and that's very telling.

yeah it's a very powerful ability. I haven't really made the effort to wholly understand genjutsu tbh as it ruins itachi's fights imo (exceptions include the first time itachi used tsukuyomi and the itachi-sasuke genjutsu battle which was awesome), but yeah the way itachi uses genjutsu is ridiculously overpowered. however, for the most part the caster of the genjutsu cannot move himself from what i've seen (which brings obvious disadvantages) , the ones in which the caster can move freely are fairly weak and easily broken

of course, they're hard to detect and even if they're broken it still grants you a split second advantage which can be invaluable in a fight, especially when the user is as speedy as itachi or sasuke.

the one thing I disagree with is what you mentioned about the victim staying motionless, that only seems to be a feature of a. paralyzing genjutsu which is in another class and easily detectable and b. izanami- which is a higher level of genjutsu and costs a MS eye. not that it makes a big difference when the victim is flailing in his own world while the caster is bearing down upon him, but still the movement can be used to disguise that the genjutsu has been broken to form a counterattack.

if you fight that level of genjutsu user carelessly it's definitely game over. Orochimaru while very competent is incredibly arrogant leading to his downfall three times, and Deidara, Bee and Naruto are took cocky for their own good and the last two are kind of dumb, leading to them being prime candidates to be trapped in stuff like that. Danzou was an odd case, but i think what Tobi said holds true; he was able to detect Sasuke's genjutsu, but by having the sharingan he underestimated Sasuke's prowess with it, the key is how it's used.

all in all, it's an ability to put the user above similarly skilled opponents and make it look easy. to fight it, you need a. bunshin or b. finely developed chakra control and sensing abilities like say, Hiruzen. it's an unfair ability to be sure, it and speed are the biggest advantages one can have in naruto imo.

Few things you should note, The caster of the genjutsu can move , which is what makes it even more broken.. we've seen this a few times, Orochimaru vs itachi, he put him in a genjutsu and cut his bloody hand off before he could break it,
Itachi vs Killerbee, he put him in a genjutsu and threw shruiken at him in real time
there are more cases

also idk about all genjutsu, but the few itachi used,eg finger genjutsu, while in that, naruto was just standing still wobbling, untill he got released, and that wasn't a paralysis genjutsu.. same with killer bee, he was just standing still..

It's completely op to have a genjutsu that not only is subtle and simulates reality, but you are able to move, the opponent is stationary, and doesn't even realize he/she is in one in he first place

aizen shit all over again

 

[Kinimaster]

Agree, very informative. Uchiha haters seem to underrate how powerfull this type of genjutsu is, more so in the hands of someone like Itachi.

 

[Waltz]

Excellent work. Many people do not know the extent of itachi's genjtusu and how it's broken.

Nice thread.

 

[Bogard]

Like i already told you, creating a reality genjutsu is not a feat. Kakashi was able to create a reality genjutsu in Sakura's mind where she saw a almost dying Sasuke and it was only a D-Rank genjutsu:

Spoiler

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Even Isumo and Kotetsu were able to do it in part1, but it doesn't mean they were not detectable:

Spoiler

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There is no real difference between normal genjutsus and the one you call reality genjutsus. The only thing is that for a genjutsu to work, it depends on the opponent your facing. It may work against Deidara, but fail against Sakura, simply because Deidara isn't good enough to see these type of things. It may work against Naruto, but fail against Jiraya, because he is more experimented to see thru these type of things, and so on

Good thread nonetheless

 

[Owarij]

Like i already told you, creating a reality genjutsu is not a feat. Kakashi was able to create a reality genjutsu in Sakura's mind where she saw a almost dying Sasuke and it was only a D-Rank genjutsu:

Spoiler

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Even Isumo and Kotetsu were able to do it in part1, but it doesn't mean they were not detectable:

Spoiler

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You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

There is no real difference between normal genjutsus and the one you call reality genjutsus. The only thing is that for a genjutsu to work, it depends on the opponent your facing. It may work against Deidara, but fail against Sakura, simply because Deidara isn't good enough to see these type of things. It may work against Naruto, but fail against Jiraya, because he is more experimented to see thru these type of things, and so on

Good thread nonetheless

Sakura and sasuke realized they were in a genjuts because the 2nd floor said 3rd , this is nothing like what I'm referring to.. In this genjutsu they purposefully left that "hint" there for the ninjas to find

And linking kakshi's manga scan genjutsuying sakura proves literally nothing, this thread isn't about it being a feat, its why it's broken

We;ve seen how devastating reality simulating genjutsu that leaves no hints can be, danzo dieing to sasuke, deidara and itachi, and more..
as the guy i posted back there said ^ it's insanely broken and can defeat highlevel ninja easily considering the plot mechanics of genjutsu.. which is why kishi seldom uses this kind of genjutsu...a obvious one is better for the reader... It wouldn't be nice if every fight itachi was in he did the same thing to the ninja as he did to deidara

 

[Bogard]

Sakura and sasuke realized they were in a genjuts because the 2nd floor said 3rd , this is nothing like what I'm referring to.. In this genjutsu they purposefully left that "hint" there for the ninjas to find

And linking kakshi's manga scan genjutsuying sakura proves literally nothing, this thread isn't about it being a feat, its why it's broken

If you say so. Anyway the only purpose of my reply was to show you that genjutsu could work on some people and fail on others simply because experimented ninjas are able to detect genjutsus even if they are "reality genjutsus" or whatever you call it or not. There will be always a way for them to notice they are put in a genjutsu like Sasuke and Sakura noticed they were in the 2nd instead of the 3rd althought they were in that "reality genjutsu"

 

[Owarij]

There will be always a way for them to notice they are put in a genjutsu like Sasuke and Sakura noticed they were in the 2nd instead of the 3rd althought they were in that "reality genjutsu"

nonono, they PURPOSEFULLY left that hint there..

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This is completely different to what I mean.. a genjutsu used in battle , in 1v1, that simulates reality, how do you expect the ninja to realize , and break it fast enough so that they dont die in real time? while the caster has all the time in the world?

 

[USSJ Future Trunks]

this is why i believed sasuke is better than itachi in genjutsu. he didnt only not make it obvious but he saved it for when he really needed to use it like fooling deidara into thinking he DIED

 

[USSJ Future Trunks]

the major flaw of uchiha genjutsu is if they fight someone who does not need their sight to fight AND knows about it beforehand. for some reason just shielding your eyes wasnt enough for bee but was enough for kabuto (cloth, shades, same thing). other genjutsu like kabuto's nirvana work regardless of the senses.

 

[Owarij]

the major flaw of uchiha genjutsu is if they fight someone who does not need their sight to fight AND knows about it beforehand. for some reason just shielding your eyes wasnt enough for bee but was enough for kabuto (cloth, shades, same thing). other genjutsu like kabuto's nirvana work regardless of the senses.

Idk if I covered it, but even a noneye contact genjutsu can be deadly ...Itachi had naruto in a genjutsu andhe didn't even realize.. when naruto charged at him he said "you're all ready in my genjutsu" and showed him with a change of environment..

 

[tracytracy22]

Like i already told you, creating a reality genjutsu is not a feat. Kakashi was able to create a reality genjutsu in Sakura's mind where she saw a almost dying Sasuke and it was only a D-Rank genjutsu

Rank is to do with the difficulty of executing a technique...not power!

 

[Owarij]

Rank is to do with the difficulty of executing a technique...not power!

Very correct

 

[Aero]

Itachis non eye contact genjutsu requires time to be prepared,so its not much of a problem..
But yeah,ur right for rest of the part,the victim thinks hes fighting while he is only standing...
But I think if ur in a genjutsu u can keep using jutsu in real world,if a ninja is extremely skilled,possibly he can detect the chakra disruption(extreme case)....
Real world genjutsus are really a pain,but how about cutting or hurting urself?if u escape out of a genjutsu if an ally hits u,why cant u do that on ur own(unless ur paralysed)...
I dont think victims r paralysed,since sakura stated that naruto keep shooting his rasengan at nothing when he was under Itachis genjutsu

The biggest pain,according to me, is genjutsu which hv very quick effect(itachis tsukuyomi on kakashi)and get over in a little time inflincting huge damage......and ofcourse,Shisui's

 

[Uchihakil]

True genjutsu is op as f*ck, especially the likes of KA which is undetected and tsukiyomi which gives no room for breaking out, genjutsu function the same way as kyouka suigetsu and narutoverse genjutsu is even more diverse, we have illusion creating genjutsu, paralyses genjutsu, mind rape genjutsu and controlling opponents genjutsu

 

[true enigma]

Tsukuyomi rapes the NV