Why didn't Sasuke join Madara?

chaos control

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Was anybody else at least slightly surprised when Sasuke decided to help the alliance after Hashirama's flashbacks instead of helping Madara? I was and here is why:

Right now, we don't know that much about Sasuke's true ideology and his plan to "change the system" as he said and create peace. We only know a few things right now:

1. He wants to become hokage.

2. He wants the bijuus to be eliminated.

3. He wants to stop stuff like war and discrimination, so that situations like the current one never happen again.

Now ask yourself this:

What exactly would numbers one and two solve? 1st, let us talk about number 2.

Eliminating the bijuus would not really solve anything except preventing infinite tsukuyomi from happening again. The bijuus were just seen as sources of military power by the shinobi world. They were essentially just weapons.

Taking away 9 powerful weapons would not stop war, discrimination or any other world conflict. Power is not the only thing that humans fight over. They fight over land. They fight over resources. They fight because they don't like another country's economic or political system. These are all sources of conflict that apply in both fiction and in real life.

With this conflict, naturally comes discrimination. This discrimination can result from people not liking races that were apart of the opposing side in said conflicts. It can be fear that a race has connections to the opposing side (like how America interned Japanese Americans in WWII because they feared that the Japanese Americans may have had connections to the people who bombed Pearl Harbor). It can also be just plain racism.

Once again, these are all problems that exist in both fiction and in real life and they all happen on a daily basis with no regard to the existence or non-existence of the bijuus. In other words, the beasts have nothing to do with starting wars. They are just weapons.

Now you may be thinking about the fact that the shinobi countries fought over bijuus, but if you really look at it, that was simply a fight for power in general. It was essentially just militarism, and the bijuus just happened to be the weapon of choice.

Killing the bijuus would not stop militarism. Even in real life, they say militarism was one of the leading four factors that led to WWI (along with imperialism, nationalism and alliances). In fact, the Cold War was all about militarism (and bijuus don't exist in real life).

Now you may be thinking that the bijuus are the equivalent to nuclear weapons and then you may ask me if I am saying that we should not put limits on the world's arsenals of nuclear weapons. I am not saying that at all.

Here is the difference between killing the bijuus and getting rid of nuclear weapons.

The bijuus are living sapient creatures that have only attacked because they were either being controlled or because the shinobi attacked or tried to seal them first. Therefore, to kill the bijuus is to enact the same discrimination that Sasuke is trying to prevent.

Nuclear weapons on the other hand, are inanimate objects whose sole purpose is mass destruction. If left alone, the bijuus won't actually bring about the mass destruction that a nuclear weapon does.

Therefore, it would actually end up doing more harm to even target the bijuus than it would to just leave them alone.

In short, killing the bijuus would not solve any problems. The bijuus are just the weapons used. If you take away guns from humans, we'd just go back to fighting with swords and spears. Take those away, and we fight with sticks and rocks. Take those away, we go fisticuffs. Either way, we fight! It is the same concept here. The bijuus are not the problem nor the sources of the real roots of conflict (discrimination, militarism, imperialism, greed, etc...) If Sasuke wants to create change, he will have to eliminate those sources (not just the weapons).

Now, to talk about point number one: become hokage.

This also wouldn't do a thing to stop the world's problems. For one, the hokage only has dominion over Konoha (not all 5 great nations). Many times (in both real life and fiction) when a political leader tries to exercise control over dominion that is not his territory, retaliation from the leaders of the foreign land occurs and war breaks out. This is essentially what happened with the Vietnam war. America tried to exercise control in the middle east by trying to tame the flow of communism in the Koreas and other near territories. As a result, America got involved in a war that really had nothing to do with them and formed a bond of hatred with North Korea that lasts to this day! In a similar fashion, if Sasuke tries to enact his policies to change the shinobi system on other places like Kumo for instance, then the raikage or any other leader wouldn't just sit back and let it happen. Retaliation would ensue and bring about the war and damaging effects of the shinobi system that has caused all of the problems of the series thus far.

As the hokage, Sasuke could potentially limit Konoha's internal problems, but that is about it.

In short, becoming hokage wouldn't meet Sasuke's needs either.

So then what is the solution?

Infinite tsukuyomi!! With the infinite tsukuyomi, everybody can have exactly what they want without actually hurting or affecting other people! Regardless of any differing opinions or vices (which are really the main sources of all conflict in the world), everybody can have all of the rights and privileges that they want and deserve as a human being! As long as this universe prefers asymmetry and as long as natural selection/social Darwinism and hierarchy amongst humans occurs, society can never be truly equal and those who are oppressed by these things will fight for better lives, thus causing conflict, discrimination, hatred and war.

All economies, and governments essentially thrive on the concepts of competition in which someone will inevitably lose or hierarchy in which someone will inevitably disagree with. This leads to all of those aforementioned conflicts.

In the infinite tsukuyomi however, you can say screw you to hierarchy, competition and differing opinions because everyone can win in this type of world! This would bring about all the change that Sasuke desires and he would even be able to honor his brother's will and protect Konoha!!!

Even if you say that it is all just a lie, I say this:

Define reality! Reality is what you physically experience with the senses and what you are affected by. Since it was thought that the shinju kept your real body alive and since the whole white zetsu was not known about at the time, the dream world was essentially reality. Reality is only relative to what you experience (similar to time and space in relativity).

It is for these reasons that I am surprised that Sasuke didn't join Madara. His current objectives that we know of wouldn't be very effective, but the infinite tsukuyomi would be!

Share your thoughts.
 

Raekwon26

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This long post wasn't even needed.

He wants to change the system so stuff like what happened to his brother and what is going on right now does not happen.
Enslaving people is completely against what he wants to achieve.
 

Mellow

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Plot .

10 char
 

KcMSean

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Sasuke is crazy, but he's not dumb. Joining madara would make him a pawn, and that's something we know he is not for (orochimaru, Tobi.) I think he'd rather change the world with his own methods than ride someone's coattails to the end of the world.
 

ANiMUS

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Was anybody else at least slightly surprised when Sasuke decided to help the alliance after Hashirama's flashbacks instead of helping Madara? I was and here is why:

Right now, we don't know that much about Sasuke's true ideology and his plan to "change the system" as he said and create peace. We only know a few things right now:

1. He wants to become hokage.

2. He wants the bijuus to be eliminated.

3. He wants to stop stuff like war and discrimination, so that situations like the current one never happen again.

Now ask yourself this:

What exactly would numbers one and two solve? 1st, let us talk about number 2.

Eliminating the bijuus would not really solve anything except preventing infinite tsukuyomi from happening again. The bijuus were just seen as sources of military power by the shinobi world. They were essentially just weapons.

Taking away 9 powerful weapons would not stop war, discrimination or any other world conflict. Power is not the only thing that humans fight over. They fight over land. They fight over resources. They fight because they don't like another country's economic or political system. These are all sources of conflict that apply in both fiction and in real life.

With this conflict, naturally comes discrimination. This discrimination can result from people not liking races that were apart of the opposing side in said conflicts. It can be fear that a race has connections to the opposing side (like how America interned Japanese Americans in WWII because they feared that the Japanese Americans may have had connections to the people who bombed Pearl Harbor). It can also be just plain racism.

Once again, these are all problems that exist in both fiction and in real life and they all happen on a daily basis with no regard to the existence or non-existence of the bijuus. In other words, the beasts have nothing to do with starting wars. They are just weapons.

Now you may be thinking about the fact that the shinobi countries fought over bijuus, but if you really look at it, that was simply a fight for power in general. It was essentially just militarism, and the bijuus just happened to be the weapon of choice.

Killing the bijuus would not stop militarism. Even in real life, they say militarism was one of the leading four factors that led to WWI (along with imperialism, nationalism and alliances). In fact, the Cold War was all about militarism (and bijuus don't exist in real life).

Now you may be thinking that the bijuus are the equivalent to nuclear weapons and then you may ask me if I am saying that we should not put limits on the world's arsenals of nuclear weapons. I am not saying that at all.

Here is the difference between killing the bijuus and getting rid of nuclear weapons.

The bijuus are living sapient creatures that have only attacked because they were either being controlled or because the shinobi attacked or tried to seal them first. Therefore, to kill the bijuus is to enact the same discrimination that Sasuke is trying to prevent.

Nuclear weapons on the other hand, are inanimate objects whose sole purpose is mass destruction. If left alone, the bijuus won't actually bring about the mass destruction that a nuclear weapon does.

Therefore, it would actually end up doing more harm to even target the bijuus than it would to just leave them alone.

In short, killing the bijuus would not solve any problems. The bijuus are just the weapons used. If you take away guns from humans, we'd just go back to fighting with swords and spears. Take those away, and we fight with sticks and rocks. Take those away, we go fisticuffs. Either way, we fight! It is the same concept here. The bijuus are not the problem nor the sources of the real roots of conflict (discrimination, militarism, imperialism, greed, etc...) If Sasuke wants to create change, he will have to eliminate those sources (not just the weapons).

Now, to talk about point number one: become hokage.

This also wouldn't do a thing to stop the world's problems. For one, the hokage only has dominion over Konoha (not all 5 great nations). Many times (in both real life and fiction) when a political leader tries to exercise control over dominion that is not his territory, retaliation from the leaders of the foreign land occurs and war breaks out. This is essentially what happened with the Vietnam war. America tried to exercise control in the middle east by trying to tame the flow of communism in the Koreas and other near territories. As a result, America got involved in a war that really had nothing to do with them and formed a bond of hatred with North Korea that lasts to this day! In a similar fashion, if Sasuke tries to enact his policies to change the shinobi system on other places like Kumo for instance, then the raikage or any other leader wouldn't just sit back and let it happen. Retaliation would ensue and bring about the war and damaging effects of the shinobi system that has caused all of the problems of the series thus far.

As the hokage, Sasuke could potentially limit Konoha's internal problems, but that is about it.

In short, becoming hokage wouldn't meet Sasuke's needs either.

So then what is the solution?

Infinite tsukuyomi!! With the infinite tsukuyomi, everybody can have exactly what they want without actually hurting or affecting other people! Regardless of any differing opinions or vices (which are really the main sources of all conflict in the world), everybody can have all of the rights and privileges that they want and deserve as a human being! As long as this universe prefers asymmetry and as long as natural selection/social Darwinism and hierarchy amongst humans occurs, society can never be truly equal and those who are oppressed by these things will fight for better lives, thus causing conflict, discrimination, hatred and war.

All economies, and governments essentially thrive on the concepts of competition in which someone will inevitably lose or hierarchy in which someone will inevitably disagree with. This leads to all of those aforementioned conflicts.

In the infinite tsukuyomi however, you can say screw you to hierarchy, competition and differing opinions because everyone can win in this type of world! This would bring about all the change that Sasuke desires and he would even be able to honor his brother's will and protect Konoha!!!

Even if you say that it is all just a lie, I say this:

Define reality! Reality is what you physically experience with the senses and what you are affected by. Since it was thought that the shinju kept your real body alive and since the whole white zetsu was not known about at the time, the dream world was essentially reality. Reality is only relative to what you experience (similar to time and space in relativity).

It is for these reasons that I am surprised that Sasuke didn't join Madara. His current objectives that we know of wouldn't be very effective, but the infinite tsukuyomi would be!

Share your thoughts.

Sasuke doesn't approve of running away from reality and abandoning those who sacrificed themselves to make this world work. If it wasn't for Naruto then of course things would remain as they r, but Naruto has changed the hearts of the country leaders and is gonna lead the bijuu. Together him and Sasuke have a chance to create peace

The long post wasn't necessary, and sorry, but I didn't read
 
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Desiigner

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Not readin', but no, I am not surprised that he joined the alliance tbh. ^_^
 

chaos control

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This long post wasn't even needed.

He wants to change the system so stuff like what happened to his brother and what is going on right now does not happen.
Enslaving people is completely against what he wants to achieve.

1. People aren't enslaved. They are living their dreams (until the white zetsu transformation which not even Madara and Obito knew about).

2. Infinite tsukuyomi would definitively stop situations like Sasuke's tragic past from happening again.

3. You should really read the post.
 

EVlL

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"He wants the bijuus to be eliminated."

wrong. sasuke only wants the bijuu not separated anymore. not to eliminate them. there was a chance to make it happen, by burning them all down. but didnt work. now that naruto has 9 bijuus inside him (although only few chakra of em, while the others are still inside madara), he's not angry right/ beucause the bijuus dont get separated. separated bijuu caused some people suffering, and hunted by an organisation, and itachi also needed to join it. also in ahshi's flashback, it was shown that the first 'confilict' was when hashi decided to separate the bijuu and giving them to villages.

i in the end i believe the prophecy will happen; the blue eyed eye will play with the bijuus. naruto will have all 9 bijuu inside him sasuke wouldnt mind it as long as it remains so.
 

Raekwon26

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1. People aren't enslaved. They are living their dreams (until the white zetsu transformation which not even Madara and Obito knew about).

2. Infinite tsukuyomi would definitively stop situations like Sasuke's tragic past from happening again.

3. You should really read the post.

1. They are enslaved. Their free will has been taken away from them. They are enslaved.

2. IT is fake, It is a way to run away from reality and accept that the world is flawed and it takes the co-operation of EVERYONE to make change, not just one person.

3. No, I won't read the post. Joining Madara goes against everything Sasuke is about.
 

Tsunade123

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He would have been used by zetsu if he did so I guess that's a positive
 

ANiMUS

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"He wants the bijuus to be eliminated."

wrong. sasuke only wants the bijuu not separated anymore. not to eliminate them. there was a chance to make it happen, by burning them all down. but didnt work. now that naruto has 9 bijuus inside him (although only few chakra of em, while the others are still inside madara), he's not angry right/ beucause the bijuus dont get separated. separated bijuu caused some people suffering, and hunted by an organisation, and itachi also needed to join it. also in ahshi's flashback, it was shown that the first 'confilict' was when hashi decided to separate the bijuu and giving them to villages.

i in the end i believe the prophecy will happen; the blue eyed eye will play with the bijuus. naruto will have all 9 bijuu inside him sasuke wouldnt mind it as long as it remains so.

I am pretty sure that he only wanted the bijuu gone because they are the pillars of the current system. Sasuke wants to destroy the current system and rebuild it anew. I don't think Naruto is going to place all of the bijuu inside himself, because that is only a temporary countermeasure. Naruto is probably going to make it so the bijuu aren't seen as tools of war
 

RinneBlitz

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Sasuke has changed a lot since joining the Alliance. His interactions with Naruto are helping him... for good. :)
 

-immortal-

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Because. my friend. he has changed his mind.


|never reading that Text bruh, next time better :) :) |
 

Thekiddreamer

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naruto would have killed him if he had, so he was scared of naruto more then madara
 

chaos control

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1. They are enslaved. Their free will has been taken away from them. They are enslaved.

2. IT is fake, It is a way to run away from reality and accept that the world is flawed and it takes the co-operation of EVERYONE to make change, not just one person.

3. No, I won't read the post. Joining Madara goes against everything Sasuke is about.

1. Hinata wanted to be with Naruto. Tsunade wanted to be with Dan, Jiraiya, Orochimaru and Nawaki. Mei wanted to get married. Did any of those dreams look to be taking away their free will to you? They were all happy and doing what they wanted (which is the opposite of having your free will taken away).

2. Define fake and real. You are basing the concept of "reality" on a subjective interpretation of reality only being this physical dimension. Reality is relative to an individual's own experience and senses. If you experience something then the joy, the pain, or whatever feeling results from it is real regardless of whether or not it is a dream. As long as your physical body doesn't die or get hurt, then whatever your consciousness experiences is real. Therefore, it is not running away from reality. It is solving the world's problems and creating a new reality. You are just saying that we should all just sit down and do nothing to create change.

3. It doesn't go against what Sasuke is about. Sasuke is about preventing things like war and discrimination, which can be done definitively in the genjutsu.
 
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