They all assumed Tobi was Madara because, to their knowledge, he was the only rogue Uchiha that had a grudge against the village, could control the Kyubi, and could get past the Konoha barrier undetected. Minato also mentioned Obito's advanced S/T as a reason, not knowing it was an MS technique. Itachi said any Uchiha with MS could control the Kyuubi, according to the Uchiha tablet.
Madara was the most logical possibility with their limited knowledge. Nothing more, nothing less.
Actually all Uchihas held a grudge against the leaf and that's why the Danzo reinforced wiping out the uchiha clan.
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They all thought Tobi was Madara because of his skill. Only someone like Madara was capable of accomplishing what Tobi did. You can't name another Uchiha to extract a bijuu, control it to fight the village while fighting a Hokage with his bare hands and not even Itachi can do that. Gaining the mangekyo sharinagn can control the kyuubi at the cost of blindness yet Tobi remains un-blind.
So to the best of every bodies knowledge including Itachi believed that every thing Tobi done can only be down by the likes of Madara's level. Itachi himself believed Tobi's MS was a EMS and he observed Tobi's actions like he said and found no other explanations for such feat.
I'm aware it was a lie :lol but why did he have to lie?
I'm not Tobi but apparently his plans where to get the hachibi and kyuubi as soon as possible.
-Onoki asks Obito why negotiate when Madara shouldn't have to with all his power
-Obito says it's because he's grown weak, a "shell of his former self"
-He said that with Madara's power that why would he rely on such roundabout tactics.
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It's not saying much but he's asking him why would he get others to do the work for him. And before Madara's death he told him to do everything himself because he believed that he had the capability of doing it
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So why he choose that method is certainly unclear and we can't use suggestions
- Obito's grown weak from what? He's not Madara and like I stated before it's all a lie. Did Obito become weaker than he was when he was 14 years old? He certainly did not. So that statement doesn't men anything especially when he said that he was a shell and the only way to become whole is by being the juubi jinchuuriki. Is EMS Madara on par with a juubi jinchuuriki now? Of course not.
He lied to make up for the fact that EMS Madara >>> MS Obito. It was an excuse and a good one.
I'm not saying EMS Madara > MS Obito w/ 7 Bijuu. I'm saying EMS Madara >> MS Obito w/ no summons as adult MS Obito has no summons.
The way I see it EMS>MS But MS w/hashirama's cells >> EMS.
What's the difference between an EMS and MS? EMS is eternal mangekyo sharingan. It's just a mangekyo sharingan that doesn't go blind. But since Tobi's hashirama tissue prevents him from going blind anways, what's the difference? It's the same thing after all.
Unless you want to explain your side of the story.
-He did solo Obito 1 on 1; Kurama was out of the picture at the time, but I already know Kurama is too much for Minato anyway.
I mean I hardly call it a solo if Hiruzen, villagers, and a toad summoning was involved to stop one man and one summoning. But it's all subjective and we know that Minato used everything in his arsenal to fight Tobi while Tobi didn't. Right? He came towards his rasengan with his bare hands.
Adult MS Obito doesn't have a summon, so it's not relevant to our discussion anyway. The fact is Obito lost 1 on 1. Minato was able to warp in front of TSB and warp them away, so I don't see any of the things you listed making a difference. The only thing that might have made a difference was genjutsu.
Minato had to take a hit from a tsb to warp them away and he was an edo tensei when that happened. If he's alive he'll definitely not have those regeneration properties to keep him alive. His level of mokuton is capable of impaling a human being, if he cuts him close range with that, he can suffer heavy damages. His katon will surely melt any kunai knife it comes in contact with so that won't work either. His Genjustu is an instant K.O to anyone who does not posses the sharingan too.
That scan doesn't prove Itachi knew about Kamui, at least the inner workings of it. I mean come on
He just openly admittedly told him that he studied his movements and he's been watching his actions. How does not prove anything?
He said he watched him slipped pass Konoha's guards, how else is he gonna do that without kamui?
-Itachi makes it so that Amaterasu lights Obito up
-Obito uses his intangibility to counter it, then says "Thank God he didn't know everything about me or I'd be dead right now"
Obito's clearly talking about his intangibility...unless you're saying Obito didn't use Kamui there, but the databook says it was kamui, so it wouldn't make sense otherwise.
I'm just feeding back your answers, I have no intentions of turning this into a Madra vs Obito thing. i just wanted to point out that people compared Tobi's actions and abilities to the likes of Madara and not Itachi.
Actually all Uchihas held a grudge against the leaf and that's why the Danzo reinforced wiping out the uchiha clan.
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They all thought Tobi was Madara because of his skill. Only someone like Madara was capable of accomplishing what Tobi did. You can't name another Uchiha to extract a bijuu, control it to fight the village while fighting a Hokage with his bare hands and not even Itachi can do that. Gaining the mangekyo sharinagn can control the kyuubi at the cost of blindness yet Tobi remains un-blind.
So to the best of every bodies knowledge including Itachi believed that every thing Tobi done can only be down by the likes of Madara's level. Itachi himself believed Tobi's MS was a EMS and he observed Tobi's actions like he said and found no other explanations for such feat.
You said it yourself, Minato and Itachi had no idea what Madara was fully capable of. They saw that Obito was a badass rogue Uchiha, so they assumed it was Madara, not knowing that Madara was actually worse.
-He said that with Madara's power that why would he rely on such roundabout tactics.
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It's not saying much but he's asking him why would he get others to do the work for him. And before Madara's death he told him to do everything himself because he believed that he had the capability of doing it
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So why he choose that method is certainly unclear and we can't use suggestions
That's true but he left him a shit load of resources and even told him to win over Nagato.
Madara later said, "don't put me on the same level as someone who took years just to get back their pets" so he was disappointed with his work anyway.
Don't see how this is relevant though.
- Obito's grown weak from what? He's not Madara and like I stated before it's all a lie. Did Obito become weaker than he was when he was 14 years old? He certainly did not. So that statement doesn't men anything
Obito hasn't grown weak from anything. It was a lie to cover his ass for not being as strong as the guy he was pretending to be (Madara).
It's as clear as day and it actually proves my point.
especially when he said that he was a shell and the only way to become whole is by being the juubi jinchuuriki. Is EMS Madara on par with a juubi jinchuuriki now? Of course not.
No, C asked him, "so is this to make you whole again" and Obito replied, "Hmm, I suppose that's one way of putting it, but there's more to it than that."
Obito never implied EMS Madara = Juubi Jin level.
The way I see it EMS>MS But MS w/hashirama's cells >> EMS.
What's the difference between an EMS and MS? EMS is eternal mangekyo sharingan. It's just a mangekyo sharingan that doesn't go blind. But since Tobi's hashirama tissue prevents him from going blind anways, what's the difference? It's the same thing after all.
Unless you want to explain your side of the story.
No, I believe fully mastered EMS >>> MS w/Senju DNA. A fully mastered EMS leads to Perfect Susanoo.
A hypothetical MS Sasuke or Itachi with Senju DNA would get shitted on by EMS Madara. The only reason Ms Obito w/ Senju DNA stands a chance at besting EMS Madara is because of Kamui hax, even without Senju DNA, this wouldnt change.
But Madara is still better overall (he solos more people than Obito can).
I mean I hardly call it a solo if Hiruzen, villagers, and a toad summoning was involved to stop one man and one summoning. But it's all subjective and we know that Minato used everything in his arsenal to fight Tobi while Tobi didn't. Right? He came towards his rasengan with his bare hands.
Hiruzen, the villagers, and Bunta only assisted with Kurama. I already admitted Kurama alone > Minato.
Minato solod Obito 1 on 1 and he didn't use his full arsenal either (Kagebunshin). He also had no intel on kamui which already puts him at a disadvantage.
EMS Madara, with or without Kurama, would've stomped the living shit out of Minato. Low diff.
Minato had to take a hit from a tsb to warp them away and he was an edo tensei when that happened. If he's alive he'll definitely not have those regeneration properties to keep him alive. His level of mokuton is capable of impaling a human being, if he cuts him close range with that, he can suffer heavy damages. His katon will surely melt any kunai knife it comes in contact with so that won't work either. His Genjustu is an instant K.O to anyone who does not posses the sharingan too.
That's true but I meant if Minato is fast enough to do that to the tsb, he's certainly fast enough to evade all of the things that you listed.
Juubi sized katon is dodged by throwing a kunai in the air and warping to it, or he simply uses his FTG barrier. Never seen a kunai melted with katon before, but Minato can also tag the ground or get a shadow clone to do it for him, so that's not a problem either.
He just openly admittedly told him that he studied his movements and he's been watching his actions. How does not prove anything?
He said he watched him slipped pass Konoha's guards, how else is he gonna do that without kamui?
That statement doesn't prove much either
He did use kamui and I'm not dumb enough to deny that. But it's not obvious of what Tobi was referring to, that's just your suggestion.
I'm pretty sure Itachi didn't literally mean he saw Obito "phase" through the guards. He meant slip as in Obito got inside Konoha undetected because Obito says Itachi was the only one who detected him.
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Pretty sure guards would've seen Obito phase through him and why would Obito even bother when he can avoid guards altogether?
You said it yourself, Minato and Itachi had no idea what Madara was fully capable of. They saw that Obito was a badass rogue Uchiha, so they assumed it was Madara, not knowing that Madara was actually worse.
That's the point I was trying to make across. What he's done speaks for itself and level was compared to that of madara at such a young age.
That's true but he left him a shit load of resources and even told him to win over Nagato.
Madara later said, "don't put me on the same level as someone who took years just to get back their pets" so he was disappointed with his work anyway.
Don't see how this is relevant though.
Well he wasn't disappointed because he left Nagato with the rinnegan and he was suppose to be for his revival after all the beast were collected. Rinnegan Madara is in a level of his own and it took him seconds to retrieve the beast. Tobi who doesn't have the rinnegan cannot collect all beast simultaneously like that without being the true onwer of a rinnegan.
So comparing Tobi (MS obito) to Rinnegan Madara is not very wise decision for white zetsu.
Obito hasn't grown weak from anything. It was a lie to cover his ass for not being as strong as the guy he was pretending to be (Madara).
He said he wasn't powerful enough to take on the alliance so he'll use the power of 7 bijuus. Not even EMS madara is powerful enough to take on the shinobi alliance. So it all depends on which version of Madara you are talking about.
It's as clear as day and it actually proves my point.
It doesn't prove your point. You're using your own interpretations of Tobi's lies.
He said it here that he doesn't have enough power to fight the shinobi world and he'll use the 7 bijuus.
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That's what he was implying the whole time.
No, C asked him, "so is this to make you whole again" and Obito replied, "Hmm, I suppose that's one way of putting it, but there's more to it than that."
I thought you were implying this.
The operation was clearly to make him the caster of mugen tsukyomi
No, I believe fully mastered EMS >>> MS w/Senju DNA. A fully mastered EMS leads to Perfect Susanoo.
A hypothetical MS Sasuke or Itachi with Senju DNA would get shitted on by EMS Madara. The only reason Ms Obito w/ Senju DNA stands a chance at besting EMS Madara is because of Kamui hax, even without Senju DNA, this wouldnt change.
Like Itachi said, EMS is just to make the power of an MS eternal. There's no ems leading to perfect susanoo as the databook specifically stated that perfect susanoo is a mangekyo sharingan move. So giving an MS senju dna is making his eyes eternal already, with both eyes they should be able to use Perfect Susanoo without suffering form any physical casualties. And on top of that with hashirama tissues you gain the addition ability to use mokuton.
So MS with senju cells= mokuton+ no blindness/physical damage+complete Susanoo
while EMS= no blindness/physical damage+complete Susanoo
And according to Madara too the user gains the power to control the gedo mazou statue.
So without senju dna there's a big difference of course and given kamui's defense, I don't see why a kamui user would need Susanoo.
But Madara is still better overall (he solos more people than Obito can).
When he gained hashirama's tissue/rinnegan he certainly can but without it he barely soloed anybody.
He beat Muu and 2nd tsuchikage and that's it. Getting his ass kicked by Hashirama doesn't do much for him.
Minato solod Obito 1 on 1 and he didn't use his full arsenal either (Kagebunshin). He also had no intel on kamui which already puts him at a disadvantage.
He used ftg all versions against him, Gambunta summoning, and rasengan against him. If he used a shadow clone it would only deplete his chakra and he won't be able to maintain his summoning for long leaving the kyuubi to kill minato.
So he literally used everything he could during the battle and let's not forget tha Tobi doesn't have intel on all of Minato's ftg moves. He "died" way too early and Tobi fought minato with warp kamui and intangible kamui, so there's a long list of jutsus that Tobi did not use against minato. His kamui was enough to handle all ftg variants and a rasengan.
EMS Madara, with or without Kurama, would've stomped the living shit out of Minato. Low diff.
EMS Madara with restrictions won't be able to.
Take away EMS Madara's katon, gubai fan, kurama, and leave him with Susanoo only. You still think he's beating Minato Low dificulty? He won't, he'll lose badly to him.
That's true but I meant if Minato is fast enough to do that to the tsb, he's certainly fast enough to evade all of the things that you listed.
Juubi sized katon is dodged by throwing a kunai in the air and warping to it, or he simply uses his FTG barrier. Never seen a kunai melted with katon before, but Minato can also tag the ground or get a shadow clone to do it for him, so that's not a problem either.
That powerful katon was able to melt some rocks and half of naruto's kyuubi cloak. If Minato places out any seals out there they're all going to melt.
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So if he spreads his range with mokuton or katon, minato won't be able to close the distance like that.
I'm pretty sure Itachi didn't literally mean he saw Obito "phase" through the guards. He meant slip as in Obito got inside Konoha undetected because Obito says Itachi was the only one who detected him.
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Pretty sure guards would've seen Obito phase through him and why would Obito even bother when he can avoid guards altogether?
The only way for Tobi to pass through the security of konoha and the guards is to pass by them. If he can avoid any guards without phasing through them, this would not of happened.
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Even Itachi who is an anbu had to confront the guards in order to get pass them. So they all saw him face to face.
And it's not like Itachi is a sensor too, so Tobi's only means is to phase.
He said he wasn't powerful enough to take on the alliance so he'll use the power of 7 bijuus. Not even EMS madara is powerful enough to take on the shinobi alliance. So it all depends on which version of Madara you are talking about.
It doesn't prove your point. You're using your own interpretations of Tobi's lies.
He said it here that he doesn't have enough power to fight the shinobi world and he'll use the 7 bijuus.
It's the only accurate interpretation there is :lol Offer me a better one. Why did Obito lie?
Obito: Hey folks, I'm Madara
Onoki: Shouldn't Madara be powerful enough to not have to negotiate with us
Obito: I'm merely a shell of my former self, but I've got 7 Bijuu though
Whether or not EMS Madara could've taken on the shinobi alliance by himself is irrelevant because the shinobi alliance hadnt even been formed yet, so Onoki was not suggesting EMS Madara > Shinobi Alliance.
Obito did state he regretted not being able to take a few Kage hostages, Onoki could've meant EMS Madara should have been able to do that, or what Pain did to Konoha.
@bold: Obito could've threatened them with 7 bijuu without telling then he had grown weak compared to his prime
Like Itachi said, EMS is just to make the power of an MS eternal. There's no ems leading to perfect susanoo as the databook specifically stated that perfect susanoo is a mangekyo sharingan move. So giving an MS senju dna is making his eyes eternal already, with both eyes they should be able to use Perfect Susanoo without suffering form any physical casualties. And on top of that with hashirama tissues you gain the addition ability to use mokuton.
So MS with senju cells= mokuton+ no blindness/physical damage+complete Susanoo
while EMS= no blindness/physical damage+complete Susanoo
And according to Madara too the user gains the power to control the gedo mazou statue.
So without senju dna there's a big difference of course and given kamui's defense, I don't see why a kamui user would need Susanoo.
When he gained hashirama's tissue/rinnegan he certainly can but without it he barely soloed anybody.
He beat Muu and 2nd tsuchikage and that's it. Getting his ass kicked by Hashirama doesn't do much for him.
-Yes, if one has powerful enough chakra, PS can be attained with MS, but outside of Indra that's NEVER happened without a boost like Rikudo chakra, and there is no proof Senju DNA can replicate a feat only Rikudo chakra has done.
-Senju DNA grants Obito Yamato level mokuton, which is nowhere near PS, not when Hashirama needs SS to combat PS
-Getting your ass kicked by Hashirama is way better than getting your ass kicked by Base Minato :lol. Just because EMS Madara was only shown fighting Hashirama, Onoki and Muu, doesn't mean we can't conclude PS shits on about 99% of the narutoverse, especially when the Gokage were about to get negged.
EMS Madara with restrictions won't be able to.
Take away EMS Madara's katon, gubai fan, kurama, and leave him with Susanoo only. You still think he's beating Minato Low dificulty? He won't, he'll lose badly to him.
Yes it'd still be a low diff fight because EMS Madara has PS and PS shits on Minato
The only way for Tobi to pass through the security of konoha and the guards is to pass by them. If he can avoid any guards without phasing through them, this would not of happened.
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Even Itachi who is an anbu had to confront the guards in order to get pass them. So they all saw him face to face.
And it's not like Itachi is a sensor too, so Tobi's only means is to phase.
Obito doesn't have to deal with security :lol he doesn't have to "phase through" security, he can warp to any spot inside the village he wants to. Itachi probably spotted Obito lurking in the village, confronted him, and said "you slipped past the guards" figuratively speaking as Obito made it inside Konoha undetected.
If you want to claim Itachi meant it "literally" then that means Obito went in front of two guards and phased through them, but that doesn't make sense because Obito himself said only Itachi knew he was there and why would Obito bother doing that shit?
It's the only accurate interpretation there is :lol Offer me a better one. Why did Obito lie?
Obito: Hey folks, I'm Madara
Onoki: Shouldn't Madara be powerful enough to not have to negotiate with us
Obito: I'm merely a shell of my former self, but I've got 7 Bijuu though
Whether or not EMS Madara could've taken on the shinobi alliance by himself is irrelevant because the shinobi alliance hadnt even been formed yet, so Onoki was not suggesting EMS Madara > Shinobi Alliance.
Obito did state he regretted not being able to take a few Kage hostages, Onoki could've meant EMS Madara should have been able to do that, or what Pain did to Konoha.
@bold: Obito could've threatened them with 7 bijuu without telling then he had grown weak compared to his prime
A lie is a lie and you can't base facts off of a lie. Madara told Tobi to walk the earth as Madara, so whatever reason that he never told, we can't assume his own intentions with our own interpretations right?
Tobi never regretted anything. He said he wanted to train Sasuke eyes with the kages and a bonus would be if he was able to capture them so his plans can go smoothly. Again, the term is capture and even he can't capture all five kages without going unscathed.
The fact is that he sent MS Sasuke to fight the kages, so EMS was never implied and he thought Sasuke shoud be well suited enough to take them out anyway. But Sasuke overused too much chakra and by himself he was able to beat Danzo and the Raikage, only chakra depletion held him back. Oonoki said that Madara shouldn't be using roundabout tactics to get what he wants, nothing else implied about Pain's capability.
What prime? This is all still a lie, you can't hold that against anything. He threatened them with bijuus if they refused the war. He literally march into the summit and threaten the kages to war without anybody to aid him. And he needed them to bring out Hachibi/kyuubi for his plans to carry out.
-Yes, if one has powerful enough chakra, PS can be attained with MS, but outside of Indra that's NEVER happened without a boost like Rikudo chakra, and there is no proof Senju DNA can replicate a feat only Rikudo chakra has done.
-Senju DNA grants Obito Yamato level mokuton, which is nowhere near PS, not when Hashirama needs SS to combat PS
-Getting your ass kicked by Hashirama is way better than getting your ass kicked by Base Minato :lol. Just because EMS Madara was only shown fighting Hashirama, Onoki and Muu, doesn't mean we can't conclude PS shits on about 99% of the narutoverse, especially when the Gokage were about to get negged.
Still. Indra had it and Sasuke with EMS never shown Complete Susanoo until he got the rinnegan and same goes for EMS Madara. All they did was the magic garb armor whatever on the kyuubi. And as long as the databook says Mangekyo sharingan, it's the mangekyo sharingan no more or less. Tobi being able to use Yamato's level of mokuton can still kill a person. In fact, Yamato's level of mokuton was bigger than the one that Tobi used against the mist shinobis and Naruto. So I see no problem with that level of mokuton killing anybody in close quarters combat.
He didn't get his ass kicked if he was the one responsible for his death. If Tobi wasn't restrcited he would still destroy him. Let's not forget that EMS Madara needed the kyuubi to fight Hashirama while Tobi didn't.
PS by itself doesn't shit on 99% of the shinobi world especially when you have people that can't even be hit by perfect Susanoo. When he beat Muu and young oonoki he didn't use PS, he just off panelled them.
What is PS going to do to intangible kamui? It can't even touch him and he's not gonna try to warp it either.
Yes it'd still be a low diff fight because EMS Madara has PS and PS shits on Minato
EMS Madara has never shown Perfect Susanoo only the magic garb thing but just to entertain that thought. What is PS going to do to Minato? He has an FTG barrier and he was able to warp away a juubi tailed beast bomb that was several times bigger than Complete Susanoo while being in edo tensei form base. That's even lower power when being alive.
Obito doesn't have to deal with security :lol he doesn't have to "phase through" security, he can warp to any spot inside the village he wants to. Itachi probably spotted Obito lurking in the village, confronted him, and said "you slipped past the guards" figuratively speaking as Obito made it inside Konoha undetected.
If you want to claim Itachi meant it "literally" then that means Obito went in front of two guards and phased through them, but that doesn't make sense because Obito himself said only Itachi knew he was there and why would Obito bother doing that shit?
The Uchihas live outside the village and for him to witness him warp inside the village would mean he's seen Kamui. And Itachi wouldn't know that Tobi infiltrated the village without seeing him get inside because he is not a sensor. Warping inside the village too is not passing the security guards too. Itachi said he saw him getting in.
And a little help from you too, you just reminded me that Tobi can warp just about anywhere. So how useful is Complete Susanoo if Tobi can warp inside of it?
