Why did Nagato even need Tobi?

Why did Nagato let himself be used?

  • He sought true purpose, like Kisame

    Votes: 1 6.3%
  • He legitimately believed in the moon's eye plan

    Votes: 9 56.3%
  • He was actually using Tobi and planned to betray him

    Votes: 5 31.3%
  • Obito blackmailed him somehow

    Votes: 1 6.3%

  • Total voters
    16

Floydical

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Speaking only in terms of manga canon, why was it that Nagato followed Tobi and let himself be used? Clearly Yahiko was the one preventing Obito from influencing them, but once he died Nagato gave into the temptation. Was it because Nagato was lost after loosing Yahiko and needed a purpose just like Kisame? Was it Obito that gave Nagato the idea to pursue his unique method of bringing peace through a tailed beast chakra-nuke?

Specifically, Tobi states in his fight with Konan that they had agreed to his Moon's Eye Plan. We know Pain's plan for Akatsuki was the creation of a true Ninja mercenary organization, but in reality that was a front for his true goal of creating a tailed beast nuke. So was the tailed beast nuke just a front for the Moon's Eye plan? If it were, than why was Nagato so strongly in favor of the Tailed beast nuke idea?

Was it simply the fact that Nagato was planning to betray Tobi? Did he agree to Tobi's plan and actually used him? Did he plan to betray Tobi once he had helped him gather all the beasts? Please discuss any ideas your have on the matter, I'm curious about this one. Thanks for reading as always.
 

Rikudou Tobi

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Tobi was the one who controlled Gedo and the one who knew how to use the weapon. If it wasn't for him he would've never knew how to use the heretical statue.
And yes Pein was trying to use the biju for world domination purposes.
 
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Strata Uchiha

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1. I guess Pein/Nagato was unaware of Tobi's true objective.

2. Nagato....unlike Yahiko was easily influenced. He was a blank canvas. He could be dyed any color through manipulative/convincing talk.
 

Floydical

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Tobi was the one who controlled Gedo and the one who knew how to use the weapon. If it wasn't for him he would've never knew how to use the heretical statue.
Do we know that for sure? Nagato could already use the Gedo Mazou before Yahiko died. I could argue that Obito had no direct influence on Nagato until after Yahiko was killed.

1. I guess Pein/Nagato was unaware of Tobi's true objective.

2. Nagato....unlike Yahiko was easily influenced. He was a blank canvas. He could be dyed any color through manipulative/convincing talk.
I thought Obito told Konan during their fight that they were in line with his Moon's eye plan, but that seems to be anime only, not in the manga. Perhaps Nagato was indeed unaware and thought they were both fighting for his Chakra-nuke plan.
 

Rikudou Tobi

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Do we know that for sure? Nagato could already use the Gedo Mazou before Yahiko died. I could argue that Obito had no direct influence on Nagato until after Yahiko was killed.
Nagato never used the gedo mazou until after he met Tobi, so it is clear that Tobi had great influence over Nagato when Yahiko was alive.
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As for Tobi's capabilities what I'm saying is true, both him and Madara manipulated the statue when nagato was in possession of the rinnegan. Madara was the one that sent Tobi to teach Nagato in the first place.
 

The Great Second Hokage

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Honestly nagato was naive more naive than anyone. Too blinded by his "purpose" and "past" and "pain" that he couldn't see that he was a mere tool. I suspect konan would have seen it if it weren't for her absolute devotion to nagato.
 

The Necromancer

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Tobi was the one who controlled Gedo and the one who knew how to use the weapon. If it wasn't for him he would've never knew how to use the heretical statue.
And yes Pein was trying to use the biju for world domination purposes.
This, for the most part.

Even if Nagato had total control over the Gedo Mazo, and could openly betray Tobi, Tobi would simply defeat Pain (I am aware this is a heavily debated battle, but there's no way Pain is getting around Kamui, and Obito know's about the Pain mechanics) and replace him.

Nagato's only option was to play nice with Tobi, and hope that once the Bijuu super weapon was finished, he could take on Tobi or join Akatsuki together to take on Tobi.

Nagato had no choice.
 

NarutoX28

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Going off of what Rikudou Tobi presented, it's likely that Nagato's realization of the concept that Tobi presented where only winners and losers existed and the pain that this system evoked likely gave birth to Nagato's own cooperation with Tobi. For instance, Nagato was intrigued, but still disinclined to cooperating with Tobi based on Yahiko's own conviction that people can empathize with others. Once Yahiko's death took place, that likely was catalyst for Nagato's hatred towards the system and the ideology revolving around the endless cycle of pain and hatred given that Yahiko's death was symbolic of Yahiko's ideology being a dude. That's likely why Tobi said, "You'll eventually realize it too."

Tobi was awaiting for that moment and Yahiko's death simply made him susceptible to Obito's temptations.
 
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Floydical

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This, for the most part.

Even if Nagato had total control over the Gedo Mazo, and could openly betray Tobi, Tobi would simply defeat Pain (I am aware this is a heavily debated battle, but there's no way Pain is getting around Kamui, and Obito know's about the Pain mechanics) and replace him.

Nagato's only option was to play nice with Tobi, and hope that once the Bijuu super weapon was finished, he could take on Tobi or join Akatsuki together to take on Tobi.

Nagato had no choice.
Going off of what Rikudou Tobi presented, it's likely that Nagato's realization of the concept that Tobi presented where only winners and losers existed and the pain that this system evoked likely gave birth to Nagato's own cooperation with Tobi. For instance, Nagato was intrigued, but still disinclined to cooperating with Tobi based on Yahiko's own conviction that people can empathize with others. Once Yahiko's death took place, that likely was the trigger for Nagato's hatred towards the system and the ideology revolving around the endless cycle of pain and hatred and finally sought for Tobi's aid because of it, hence why Tobi said, "You'll eventually realize it too."

Tobi was awaiting for that moment and Yahiko's death simply made him susceptible to Obito's temptations.
Then what's your guys' opinions on when Obito started training Nagato? Clearly Madara learned how to summon the gedo Mazou without prior training, so couldn't Nagato do it too? Or was it Obito that trained him despite Yahiko attempting to block his influence?
 

NarutoX28

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Then what's your guys' opinions on when Obito started training Nagato? Clearly Madara learned how to summon the gedo Mazou without prior training, so couldn't Nagato do it too? Or was it Obito that trained him despite Yahiko attempting to block his influence?
Yeah, Nagato summoning the Gedo Mazo was a natural occurrence for Nagato given that he did it against Hanzo. However, an argument could be made that Obito trained Nagato in order to accomplish that given that Nagato was in a frenzy and allowed the Rinnegan to possess him (presumably). Madara did grasp the secrets of the Rinnegan rather quickly, but remember that Nagato was explicitly shown to have engaged in strenuous training in order to master that power which makes sense given that Madara is the original owner of these eyes and would be naturally attuned and adept in using it.

I think a case could be made for either case personally and I don't think the manga gave us a definite answer here.

As for when Obito trained Nagato, perhaps once Nagato surrendered to Obito's own beliefs which I believe was soon after Yahiko's death.
 

Rikudou Tobi

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Then what's your guys' opinions on when Obito started training Nagato? Clearly Madara learned how to summon the gedo Mazou without prior training, so couldn't Nagato do it too? Or was it Obito that trained him despite Yahiko attempting to block his influence?
Nagato did not have Black zetsu lead him the way or the uchiha shrine tablets aka black zetsu's tampering. That's something both madara and tobi had on their side as well.
 

Floydical

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Nagato did not have Black zetsu lead him the way or the uchiha shrine tablets aka black zetsu's tampering. That's something both madara and tobi had on their side as well.
Don't be silly. Madara was convinced until the very end that BZ was his creation. BZ made Madara believed he created him. BZ might have been watching Madara from the start, but he certainly didn't help him. And the tablet said only limited amounts of information. At the very most it informed Madara about the Gedo Mazou, but didn't tell him how to summon it with the Rinnegan, he still discovered that on his own.
 

Rikudou Tobi

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Don't be silly. Madara was convinced until the very end that BZ was his creation. BZ made Madara believed he created him. BZ might have been watching Madara from the start, but he certainly didn't help him. And the tablet said only limited amounts of information. At the very most it informed Madara about the Gedo Mazou, but didn't tell him how to summon it with the Rinnegan, he still discovered that on his own.
According to BZ, he said he was responsible for everything. And Madara found his believes and the stories of Hagoromoo in the stone tablet. I'm not being silly here, but why else would Madara fight to the bitter end just to receive hashirama's chakra?
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But believe whatever you want to believe, Madara learned about Gedo from somewhere. Nagato's been with it as a kid to nearly 20 years old and he's never once summoned the Gedo until Tobi's arrival yet Madara summons the Gedo mazou the second he awakens his rinnegan.
 
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Pumpkin Ninja

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Pein's beliefs lead me to think he would have approved of IT. We know that he thought humans were trapped in an endless cycle of hatred and that he had no answer other than teaching everyone pain so he probably liked IT.
 
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