Son Wukong
Active member
In dragon ball super episodes 53 and 54 whis, beerus, and goku all traveled to the kaio-shin realm of universe 10, which in this , a range of speed will be attempted to be found. If you how ever only care about the results and not the mathematics and logical applications behind the results then skip to the "conclusion" section .
Calculation done by : Nick Santana
—The variables —
What we do know:
✔ they left the universe to travel to universe 10.
✔ universe 10 is not as close to universe 7 as universe 6 is to 7, based off this (skip to: 1:22)
Dbs dragon god Zarama ep 41:
What we don't know: (but will be finding out possible ranges.) The true distance between universe 7 and 10.
The precise time it took to travel this distance.
-----------------------------------------------------
Now let's use a feasible size for the universe in dragon ball, we will assume its diameter ≈ our current model for the observable universe
- 8.76×10^26 meters .
We assume this because its generally accepted as a reasonable dimension for fictional verses of unknown size, we also could suggest its very similar based off things that the author has included in it, like Jupiter, the sun, the milky way galaxy, and a massive amount of galaxies (unquantifiable amount).
✔Note: the speed of light, or "c" = 2.99×10^8 m/s
— Range 1: Whis —
Now let's assume the distance covered is only the distance needed to reach the edge of the observable universe from earth (but not far enough to go past it).
Well it happens that the observable universe stretch's about 46.5 billion ly (4.38×10^26 m) from the Earth, due to cosmic inflation how ever it is actually expanding constantly, but for the sake of keeping it as simple as possible, we will assume its size is constant.
Low ball (1 year)
Let's assume the time it took to travel to universe 10 was a full earth year (yes, I know its obviously to large of a time frame , only about a day happened between ep 53-54 ) but for the sake of a low ball... Why not.
Distance : 4.38×10^26 m
Time : 31.5 million s (1 earth year)
(4.38×10^26/3.15×10^7)
Speed = 1.39×10^19 m/s, or 46.5 billion times the speed of light
Mid ball (1 week)
Let's assume the time it took was 1 earth week
Distance : 4.38×10^26 m
Time : 604,800 s (1 week)
(4.38×10^26/604,800)
Speed : 7.24×10^20 m/s, or 2.24 trillion times the speed of light
Realistic (1 sideral day)
Time is assumed to be 1 earth sideral day (23.93 hours)
Distance: 4.38×10^26 m
Time: 86,148 s
(4.38×10^26/86,148)
Speed: 5.08×10^21 m/s, or 17 trillion times the speed of light
-----------------------------------------------------
Conclusion : range 1 (whis)
- low ball: 46.5 billion ×(c)
- Mid ball: 2.24 trillion ×(c)
- realistic: 17 trillion ×(c)
- average: 6.43 trillion ×(c)
-----------------------------------------------------
— Range 2: Whis —
- For this range, we will use more sophisticated methods, although it is based on artistic scale which isn't constant. How ever, it will be implemented for the sake of possibilities.
NOTE: This is only the work done and info, you can skip down to the "low ball" if you want to see the speed figures.
Relavant Scans :
Based off this map we were given by whis of the dragon ball Multiverse, we have a visual representation of where the universes are located in the set.
It is explained that each universes co-exist in pairs, which we are shown on whis's map, and shown the actual real time locations relative to the plot (dragon ball episode 41). Thus with that evidence, we will assume the map whis provided is in numerical order in the pairs
Ex: 6,7,8,9,... 12.
✔Method: We will find the distance of both the universes from from the camera, or in this case the observer, and then find the distance of the 2 universes by finding the difference in distances from the viewer.
Note: this will not be 100% accurate due to the fact that the art will be inconsistent to scale, and that the image is at a slight angle, but arbitrary enough to have some what accurate figures
✔Formulae
-Angular diameter formula for an image
2tan^-1 (d/(h •tan (70/2))) Tan^-1 = arc tan
d= diameter of object in PX
h= height of the panel
Distance based of angular diameter
d/(2tan(Ø/2)) d= true diameter (real size)
Ø= angular diameter
-----------------------------------------------------
Angular diameter (degrees )
Panel height (px): ≈167 px
Universe 7 diameter (px)≈34 px
Universe 10 diameter (px) ≈17 px
Universe 7=10 (true size) ≈ 8.76×10^26 meters
✔Universe 7 ≈ 16.22562° 2tan^-1(34/(167/tan(70/2)))
✔Universe 10 ≈ 8.15413° 2tan^-1(17/(167/tan(70/2)))
—Distance from observer:
✔ Universe 7
3.07×10^27 m) (8.76×10^26/(2tan(16.22652/2))
✔ Universe 10 6.14×10^27 m) (8.76×10^26/(2tan(8.15413))
Thus the distance between the 2 universes is 3.07×10^27 m
(6.14×10^27)-(3.07×10^27)
Note: answer must be in absolute value
low ball (1 year)
Time to cross this hypothetical distance = 31.5 million s (1 earth year)
Distance : 3.07×10^27 m
Time: 3.15×10^7 s (3.07×10^27/3.15×10^7)
Speed: 9.74×10^19 m/s, or 32.5 billion times the speed of light
mid ball (1 week)
Time to cross hypothetical distance = 604,800 s, or (1 earth week)
Distance: 3.07×10^27 m
Time: 604,800 s (3.07×10^27/604,800 s)
Speed: 5.07×10^21 m/s, or 17.97 trillion times the speed of light
Realistic (1 sideral day)
Time to cross hypothetical distance = 86,148 s, or (23.94 hours)
Distance: 3.07×10^27 m
Time: 86,148 s (3.07×10^26/86,148)
Speed: 3.56x10^22 m/s, or 119.1 trillion times the speed of light
Conclusion: range 2 (Whis)
Low ball: 32.5 billion × (c)
Mid ball: 17.97 trillion × (c)
Realistic: 119.1 trillion x (c) Average 45.7 trillion × (c)
— range 1: Beerus —
For this we will analyze beeruz's feat in dbs episode 2 when he traveled to the same distance whis did in only 20 seconds longer
What we know:
✔ Whis took 1 min to reach the destination (he was given a total of 3 mins to complete the task).
✔ Beerus then left his planet after 1 min to go find Whis, which Beerus arrived when Whis quoted he still had 40 second seconds left (meaning 2 mins and 20 seconds passed)
✔Based on this Beerus took roughly 1 min and 20 seconds to reach the same planet Whis did in only 60 seconds
✔ mathematically speaking, it means beerus is roughly 33.33% slower than whis , or about 2/3 the speed of whis (80/60)
Thus for every speed possibility for whis we found, we can simply subtract 33.33% of it from his speed (or multiply by 2/3), and find the speed for Beerus. You may ask, why is this relavent? Its because it shows that beerus can travel the same places Whis can in 33.33% more time, Beerus also has never shown the abilities to preform an instantaneous movement technique.
Conclusion : range 1 (Beerus) Note: Whis speed is multiplied by (2/3) for results
- low ball: 3.1 billion × (c)
- Mid ball: 1.49 trillion ×(c)
- realistic: 11.33 trillion ×(c) - average: 4.28 trillion ×(c)
Conclusion : Range 2 (beerus)
Note : Whis speed is multiplied by (2/3) for results
Low ball: 21.6 billion × (c)
Mid ball: 11.98 trillion × (c)
Realistic: 79.4 trillion x (c) Average 30.46 trillion × (c)
Hypothetical current goku speed
The section bellow is only to cover why the method of scale has validity, you can skip to the "conclusion: range 1 (goku)" to see the actual speed figures.
Now this section is more or less based on the high end, assuming the maximum for goku compared to whis (we will be finding goku compared to beerus)
Author Akira Toriyama in a shounen jump interview with Tōybel stated "I currently have no plans for goku and vegeta to surpass beerus and whis ".
This was stated the same month episode 39 aired when goku achieved the kaio-ken 10x ssgss
This tells us that beerus 100%> goku ssgss kaio-ken 10x hence he had no plans for goku to surpass him at the time.
Which if we analyze the variables,
✔ kaio-ken increases base power by a specific factor
✔ ssgss > ssg as proved in the Fukkatsu No F arc
That being said, logically speaking, if beerus 100%> ssgss kaio-ken 10x
That means beerus is over 10x stronger than the ssgss state currently
And if ssgss> ssg, we know beerus is also over 10x the ssg state , hence ssgss> ssg.
Thus the ssg state is under 10% the full power of beerus
Also, let's provide the evidence of why gokus ki being any faction of beerus's ki can is significant
Its been shown time and time again that as ki increases, all stats also increase more consistently linearly (which we know the power level scale has its outliers, how ever fiction is not a perfect system)
Evidence :
✔ Almost every instance ki has increased, speed has increased, ex, vegeta vs goku, freeza vs goku, cell vs vegeta, cell vs goku, cell vs gohan, goku vs buu etc.
✔ In the freeza vs goku fight on namek, we saw base goku with a power of 3,000,000 was evenly matched with a suppressed freeza. How ever, after feeeza reached ≈ 50% of his power (quoted to have a power of 60,000,000), freeza was too fast, to strong, and to powerful for goku by a large factor.
Which this will show us an actual quantitative value for ki increase to speed increase ratio.
Goku with a power of 3,000,000 had a power level that was 1/20th of freeza 50% (60,000,000), we saw that the kaio-ken 10x failed, as stated by kaio-sama, he was using it against freeza, freeza still dominating in all aspects effortlessly. Which the kaio-ken 10x would increase gokus power by 10x his base states (3,000,000×10= 30,000,000) and freeza 50% still out classed him.
"50% maximum power!"
Page 10
Page 14
✔ then we see goku uses the kaio-ken 20x, and magically, he can match freeza in all aspects, even speed, we also know with the 20x multiplier, gokus power would then be 60,000,000, which is equal to 50% freeza (60,000,000).
This indicates that the speed to ki increase has a relation that increases by the same factor.
"Kaio-ken times twenty!"
Page 8
Page 11
This being said, we will use the highest possible percent of beerus's ki goku is based off the known variables provided by Akira Toriyama (10%, or 1/10)
Assuming anything more would be more of a guessing game, which for validity, we will keep it to what we know as much as possible.
Note: Trunks vs cell can be explained, Trunks had flexibility constraints for bulking up, which is why they do not use bulky forms any more. The "ultra ssj" is an outlier seeing it's method of ki ussage is different (its an incomplete form).
-----------------------------------------------------
Conclusion : range 1 (goku) Note: beerus speed is multiplied 1/10 for results.
- low ball: 310 million × (c)
- Mid ball: 149 billion ×(c)
- realistic: 1.133 trillion ×(c) - average: 428 billion ×(c)
Conclusion : Range 2 (beerus)
Note : beerus's speed is multiplied by (1/10) for results Low ball: 2.16 billion × (c)
Mid ball: 1.198 trillion × (c)
Realistic: 7.94 trillion x (c) Average 3.046 trillion × (c)
In conclusion, it is almost irrefutable at this point that whis, and beerus at this point can achieve speeds well over millions of times "C" , while this posts exact figures can be flawed , the idea trying to be conveyed that the scale easily reachs that high at this point, is correct in principle. However, while goku and such can be debated, evidence strongly suggests that goku has entered this general range of ki. Even if goku was 0.01% of beerus In the ssgss state, he'd still be able to reach velocities 100,000's of times the speed of light.
Calculation done by : Nick Santana
You must be registered for see links
—The variables —
What we do know:
✔ they left the universe to travel to universe 10.
✔ universe 10 is not as close to universe 7 as universe 6 is to 7, based off this (skip to: 1:22)
Dbs dragon god Zarama ep 41:
You must be registered for see links
What we don't know: (but will be finding out possible ranges.) The true distance between universe 7 and 10.
The precise time it took to travel this distance.
-----------------------------------------------------
Now let's use a feasible size for the universe
- 8.76×10^26 meters .
You must be registered for see links
We assume this because its generally accepted as a reasonable dimension for fictional verses of unknown size, we also could suggest its very similar based off things that the author has included in it, like Jupiter, the sun, the milky way galaxy, and a massive amount of galaxies (unquantifiable amount).
✔Note: the speed of light, or "c" = 2.99×10^8 m/s
You must be registered for see links
— Range 1: Whis —
Now let's assume the distance covered is only the distance needed to reach the edge of the observable universe from earth (but not far enough to go past it).
Well it happens that the observable universe stretch's about 46.5 billion ly (4.38×10^26 m) from the Earth, due to cosmic inflation how ever it is actually expanding constantly, but for the sake of keeping it as simple as possible, we will assume its size is constant.
Low ball (1 year)
Let's assume the time it took to travel to universe 10 was a full earth year (yes, I know its obviously to large of a time frame , only about a day happened between ep 53-54 ) but for the sake of a low ball... Why not.
Distance : 4.38×10^26 m
Time : 31.5 million s (1 earth year)
(4.38×10^26/3.15×10^7)
Speed = 1.39×10^19 m/s, or 46.5 billion times the speed of light
Mid ball (1 week)
Let's assume the time it took was 1 earth week
Distance : 4.38×10^26 m
Time : 604,800 s (1 week)
(4.38×10^26/604,800)
Speed : 7.24×10^20 m/s, or 2.24 trillion times the speed of light
Realistic (1 sideral day)
Time is assumed to be 1 earth sideral day (23.93 hours)
Distance: 4.38×10^26 m
Time: 86,148 s
(4.38×10^26/86,148)
Speed: 5.08×10^21 m/s, or 17 trillion times the speed of light
-----------------------------------------------------
Conclusion : range 1 (whis)
- low ball: 46.5 billion ×(c)
- Mid ball: 2.24 trillion ×(c)
- realistic: 17 trillion ×(c)
- average: 6.43 trillion ×(c)
-----------------------------------------------------
— Range 2: Whis —
- For this range, we will use more sophisticated methods, although it is based on artistic scale which isn't constant. How ever, it will be implemented for the sake of possibilities.
NOTE: This is only the work done and info, you can skip down to the "low ball" if you want to see the speed figures.
Relavant Scans :
You must be registered for see links
You must be registered for see links
You must be registered for see links
Based off this map we were given by whis of the dragon ball Multiverse, we have a visual representation of where the universes are located in the set.
It is explained that each universes co-exist in pairs, which we are shown on whis's map, and shown the actual real time locations relative to the plot (dragon ball episode 41). Thus with that evidence, we will assume the map whis provided is in numerical order in the pairs
Ex: 6,7,8,9,... 12.
✔Method: We will find the distance of both the universes from from the camera, or in this case the observer, and then find the distance of the 2 universes by finding the difference in distances from the viewer.
Note: this will not be 100% accurate due to the fact that the art will be inconsistent to scale, and that the image is at a slight angle, but arbitrary enough to have some what accurate figures
✔Formulae
-Angular diameter formula for an image
2tan^-1 (d/(h •tan (70/2))) Tan^-1 = arc tan
d= diameter of object in PX
h= height of the panel
You must be registered for see links
You must be registered for see links
Distance based of angular diameter
d/(2tan(Ø/2)) d= true diameter (real size)
Ø= angular diameter
You must be registered for see links
-----------------------------------------------------
Angular diameter (degrees )
Panel height (px): ≈167 px
Universe 7 diameter (px)≈34 px
Universe 10 diameter (px) ≈17 px
Universe 7=10 (true size) ≈ 8.76×10^26 meters
✔Universe 7 ≈ 16.22562° 2tan^-1(34/(167/tan(70/2)))
✔Universe 10 ≈ 8.15413° 2tan^-1(17/(167/tan(70/2)))
—Distance from observer:
✔ Universe 7
3.07×10^27 m) (8.76×10^26/(2tan(16.22652/2))✔ Universe 10
6.14×10^27 m) (8.76×10^26/(2tan(8.15413))Thus the distance between the 2 universes is 3.07×10^27 m
(6.14×10^27)-(3.07×10^27)
Note: answer must be in absolute value
low ball (1 year)
Time to cross this hypothetical distance = 31.5 million s (1 earth year)
Distance : 3.07×10^27 m
Time: 3.15×10^7 s (3.07×10^27/3.15×10^7)
Speed: 9.74×10^19 m/s, or 32.5 billion times the speed of light
mid ball (1 week)
Time to cross hypothetical distance = 604,800 s, or (1 earth week)
Distance: 3.07×10^27 m
Time: 604,800 s (3.07×10^27/604,800 s)
Speed: 5.07×10^21 m/s, or 17.97 trillion times the speed of light
Realistic (1 sideral day)
Time to cross hypothetical distance = 86,148 s, or (23.94 hours)
Distance: 3.07×10^27 m
Time: 86,148 s (3.07×10^26/86,148)
Speed: 3.56x10^22 m/s, or 119.1 trillion times the speed of light
Conclusion: range 2 (Whis)
Low ball: 32.5 billion × (c)
Mid ball: 17.97 trillion × (c)
Realistic: 119.1 trillion x (c) Average 45.7 trillion × (c)
— range 1: Beerus —
For this we will analyze beeruz's feat in dbs episode 2 when he traveled to the same distance whis did in only 20 seconds longer
What we know:
✔ Whis took 1 min to reach the destination (he was given a total of 3 mins to complete the task).
✔ Beerus then left his planet after 1 min to go find Whis, which Beerus arrived when Whis quoted he still had 40 second seconds left (meaning 2 mins and 20 seconds passed)
✔Based on this Beerus took roughly 1 min and 20 seconds to reach the same planet Whis did in only 60 seconds
✔ mathematically speaking, it means beerus is roughly 33.33% slower than whis , or about 2/3 the speed of whis (80/60)
Thus for every speed possibility for whis we found, we can simply subtract 33.33% of it from his speed (or multiply by 2/3), and find the speed for Beerus. You may ask, why is this relavent? Its because it shows that beerus can travel the same places Whis can in 33.33% more time, Beerus also has never shown the abilities to preform an instantaneous movement technique.
Conclusion : range 1 (Beerus) Note: Whis speed is multiplied by (2/3) for results
- low ball: 3.1 billion × (c)
- Mid ball: 1.49 trillion ×(c)
- realistic: 11.33 trillion ×(c) - average: 4.28 trillion ×(c)
Conclusion : Range 2 (beerus)
Note : Whis speed is multiplied by (2/3) for results
Low ball: 21.6 billion × (c)
Mid ball: 11.98 trillion × (c)
Realistic: 79.4 trillion x (c) Average 30.46 trillion × (c)
Hypothetical current goku speed
The section bellow is only to cover why the method of scale has validity, you can skip to the "conclusion: range 1 (goku)" to see the actual speed figures.
Now this section is more or less based on the high end, assuming the maximum for goku compared to whis (we will be finding goku compared to beerus)
Author Akira Toriyama in a shounen jump interview with Tōybel stated "I currently have no plans for goku and vegeta to surpass beerus and whis ".
This was stated the same month episode 39 aired when goku achieved the kaio-ken 10x ssgss
This tells us that beerus 100%> goku ssgss kaio-ken 10x hence he had no plans for goku to surpass him at the time.
Which if we analyze the variables,
✔ kaio-ken increases base power by a specific factor
✔ ssgss > ssg as proved in the Fukkatsu No F arc
That being said, logically speaking, if beerus 100%> ssgss kaio-ken 10x
That means beerus is over 10x stronger than the ssgss state currently
And if ssgss> ssg, we know beerus is also over 10x the ssg state , hence ssgss> ssg.
Thus the ssg state is under 10% the full power of beerus
Also, let's provide the evidence of why gokus ki being any faction of beerus's ki can is significant
Its been shown time and time again that as ki increases, all stats also increase more consistently linearly (which we know the power level scale has its outliers, how ever fiction is not a perfect system)
Evidence :
✔ Almost every instance ki has increased, speed has increased, ex, vegeta vs goku, freeza vs goku, cell vs vegeta, cell vs goku, cell vs gohan, goku vs buu etc.
✔ In the freeza vs goku fight on namek, we saw base goku with a power of 3,000,000 was evenly matched with a suppressed freeza. How ever, after feeeza reached ≈ 50% of his power (quoted to have a power of 60,000,000), freeza was too fast, to strong, and to powerful for goku by a large factor.
Which this will show us an actual quantitative value for ki increase to speed increase ratio.
Goku with a power of 3,000,000 had a power level that was 1/20th of freeza 50% (60,000,000), we saw that the kaio-ken 10x failed, as stated by kaio-sama, he was using it against freeza, freeza still dominating in all aspects effortlessly. Which the kaio-ken 10x would increase gokus power by 10x his base states (3,000,000×10= 30,000,000) and freeza 50% still out classed him.
"50% maximum power!"
You must be registered for see links
Page 10
You must be registered for see links
Page 14
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✔ then we see goku uses the kaio-ken 20x, and magically, he can match freeza in all aspects, even speed, we also know with the 20x multiplier, gokus power would then be 60,000,000, which is equal to 50% freeza (60,000,000).
This indicates that the speed to ki increase has a relation that increases by the same factor.
"Kaio-ken times twenty!"
Page 8
You must be registered for see links
Page 11
You must be registered for see links
This being said, we will use the highest possible percent of beerus's ki goku is based off the known variables provided by Akira Toriyama (10%, or 1/10)
Assuming anything more would be more of a guessing game, which for validity, we will keep it to what we know as much as possible.
Note: Trunks vs cell can be explained, Trunks had flexibility constraints for bulking up, which is why they do not use bulky forms any more. The "ultra ssj" is an outlier seeing it's method of ki ussage is different (its an incomplete form).
You must be registered for see links
You must be registered for see links
You must be registered for see links
-----------------------------------------------------
Conclusion : range 1 (goku) Note: beerus speed is multiplied 1/10 for results.
- low ball: 310 million × (c)
- Mid ball: 149 billion ×(c)
- realistic: 1.133 trillion ×(c) - average: 428 billion ×(c)
Conclusion : Range 2 (beerus)
Note : beerus's speed is multiplied by (1/10) for results Low ball: 2.16 billion × (c)
Mid ball: 1.198 trillion × (c)
Realistic: 7.94 trillion x (c) Average 3.046 trillion × (c)
In conclusion, it is almost irrefutable at this point that whis, and beerus at this point can achieve speeds well over millions of times "C" , while this posts exact figures can be flawed , the idea trying to be conveyed that the scale easily reachs that high at this point, is correct in principle. However, while goku and such can be debated, evidence strongly suggests that goku has entered this general range of ki. Even if goku was 0.01% of beerus In the ssgss state, he'd still be able to reach velocities 100,000's of times the speed of light.
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