[Discussion] What it wise of Naruto to make direct eye contact the entire conversation?

[Punk Hazard]

Sasuke has Amaterasu, Kagutsuchi, and Susano'o

Itachi had Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi, and Susano'o
Shisui had Kotoamatsukami in both eyes and presumably Susano'o (It was never shown in the manga, but his Susano'o was designed by Kishimoto himself. It could be seen as a "what could have been" if Shisui survived long enough to actually show it. Whether you want to count this is up to you. Though even if you don't, many Uchiha had both Mangekyo and no Susano'o yet so it doesn't matter). There is no details on his eyes and if each eye had some variation to it, like Obito's

Obito had Kamui in both eyes(Left eye being a self-effect of passing through objects and sucking in himself+anything he touches. Right eye being ranged effect that can suck in something farther away without needing contact.) and presumably Susano'o(Kakashi was able to use Susano'o with both eyes. It's reasonable to assume Obito would have been able to as well if he was in better condition).

Perceiving time slower, casting genjutsu, and copying other abilities are things that any Sharingan can do. It's not a Mangekyo power, rather a Sharingan ability.

Izanagi and Izanami are also not Mangekyo powers, as Danzo was using ordinary Sharingan to cast Izanagi. Itachi just happened to have an activated Mangekyo when he used Izanami.

Sharingan abilities =/= Mangekyo powers.

Itachi showed four abilities, the three you named and Kagutsuchi. Itachi extinguished the flames of Amaterasu during his fight with Sasuke.

We know extinguishing the flames is a part of Kagutsuchi and not Amaterasu because Sasuke casts Amaterasu with his left eye, but extinguished them from his right, the eye that holds Kagutsuchi.

I know what Shisui's and Obito's powers were. Not counting Susano'o, they both had one jutsu. Doesn't change a thing I said, it shows that the number of jutsu doesn't have to be three, and Itachi extinguishing the flames, a trait of Kagutsuchi, show it can go as high as four.

Let's call them what they are, not powers, but jutsu. A single Sharingan can have multitple Genjutsu, ninjutsu and kinjutsu in them. We've seen this time and time again, a Sharingan isn't limited to one jutsu per eye, so what you're saying makes no sense. We don't have ANY established limits on how many Mangekyo jutsu a single eye can have. The fact that Itachi exhibited the power to extinguish the flames AKA Kagutsuchi on a far weaker form than Sasuke's, is proof that more than one Mangekyo power can rest in one eye.

 

[Cael]

True, but take into consideration we are comparing a weakend, inexperienced MS user, who casted that genjutsu, but, how long was killer bee out on the ground before he woke up? he was paralyzed at least a good 10 seconds thats my point, its not automatic, in the amount of time sasuke had to relax, hold his right eye for those few seconds, a more knowledgeable and experience sasuke with his current eye would know even if the genjutsu is effective for a short time, thats all he needs to finish the job.

i hope you take it into consideration that there are 9 tail beast inside of naruto.
and since were guessing here, why don't we guess that bee was pretending waiting for sasuke to lower his guard for the attack.
he could of snap out of the genjutsu the moment he hit the ground, or the exact moment he realize it was a genjutsu, there is no accurate time for when he cancel it. so let's just not make assumptions.

 

[AshurSeku]

At the end of the battle, Sasuke is on the floor while Naruto hovers over. Thinking he won when he was already in Sauce's genjutsu from the beginning. Then we switch to reality and see Naruto on the floor while Sasuke is massacring the kages.

Viva La Revolution~

 

[Zawerni]

Itachi showed four abilities, the three you named and Kagutsuchi. Itachi extinguished the flames of Amaterasu during his fight with Sasuke.

We know extinguishing the flames is a part of Kagutsuchi and not Amaterasu because Sasuke casts Amaterasu with his left eye, but extinguished them from his right, the eye that holds Kagutsuchi.

I know what Shisui's and Obito's powers were. Not counting Susano'o, they both had one jutsu. Doesn't change a thing I said, it shows that the number of jutsu doesn't have to be three, and Itachi extinguishing the flames, a trait of Kagutsuchi, show it can go as high as four.

Let's call them what they are, not powers, but jutsu. A single Sharingan can have multitple Genjutsu, ninjutsu and kinjutsu in them. We've seen this time and time again, a Sharingan isn't limited to one jutsu per eye, so what you're saying makes no sense. We don't have ANY established limits on how many Mangekyo jutsu a single eye can have. The fact that Itachi exhibited the power to extinguish the flames AKA Kagutsuchi on a far weaker form than Sasuke's, is proof that more than one Mangekyo power can rest in one eye.

There is nothing that shows Itachi can use Kagutsuchi. He stopped casting the Amaterasu after Sasuke's wing was hit, but he didn't extinguish the flames. Amaterasu's flames disappear after they have completely burned what they touch, this instance being Sasuke's wing. Sure it makes no sense, but that's not my fault. Realistically with the way Amaterasu works Sasuke should have been burned to nothing. But the flames weren't extinguished by Itachi.

Like I've said numerous times now, Itachi stated each Mangekyo has one jutsu. Awakening the jutsu of both eyes gives you Susano'o, the third jutsu. Those words right there show that the limit on Mangekyo jutsus is 3, one in the left eye, one in the right eye, and Susano'o. Is it really that hard to understand?

A Sharingan isn't limited to one jutsu per eye sure, I never said that. A Sharingan is different than a Mangekyo Sharingan though. Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi, Kagutsuchi, Kamui, and Kotoamatsukami are Mangekyo Sharingan jutsu. Only one of these can be present in a single eye. That same eye can still use various other genjutsu or even kinjutsu as Itachi has shown, but they can't use a second Mangekyo jutsu in that same eye (A single Mangekyo can't cast Amaterasu and Kagutsuchi, for example.) If that were the case, then wouldn't it make more sense if Sasuke could cast Amaterasu and manipulate it with Kagutsuchi from the same eye, and have his other eye for Tsukuyomi?

 

[Cael]

At the end of the battle, Sasuke is on the floor while Naruto hovers over. Thinking he won when he was already in Sauce's genjutsu from the beginning. Then we switch to reality and see Naruto on the floor while Sasuke is massacring the kages.

Viva La Revolution~

can I ask you a question? when naruto is in this genjutsu thinking he has won? what will the 9 beast inside of him be doing ?

 

[RedShadow]

So he would just stare at something else and hope Sasuke doesn't charge him?

 

[Punk Hazard]

There is nothing that shows Itachi can use Kagutsuchi. He stopped casting the Amaterasu after Sasuke's wing was hit, but he didn't extinguish the flames. Amaterasu's flames disappear after they have completely burned what they touch, this instance being Sasuke's wing. Sure it makes no sense, but that's not my fault. Realistically with the way Amaterasu works Sasuke should have been burned to nothing. But the flames weren't extinguished by Itachi.

Like I've said numerous times now, Itachi stated each Mangekyo has one jutsu. Awakening the jutsu of both eyes gives you Susano'o, the third jutsu. Those words right there show that the limit on Mangekyo jutsus is 3, one in the left eye, one in the right eye, and Susano'o. Is it really that hard to understand?

A Sharingan isn't limited to one jutsu per eye sure, I never said that. A Sharingan is different than a Mangekyo Sharingan though. Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi, Kagutsuchi, Kamui, and Kotoamatsukami are Mangekyo Sharingan jutsu. Only one of these can be present in a single eye. That same eye can still use various other genjutsu or even kinjutsu as Itachi has shown, but they can't use a second Mangekyo jutsu in that same eye (A single Mangekyo can't cast Amaterasu and Kagutsuchi, for example.) If that were the case, then wouldn't it make more sense if Sasuke could cast Amaterasu and manipulate it with Kagutsuchi from the same eye, and have his other eye for Tsukuyomi?

The manga explicitly stated Itachi extinguished the flames. They burn until for days, the Amaterasu caught on his wing, but spread to more of his body. The flames would have kept burning the rest of his body and the floor, but Itachi stopped it. If it was just burning his wing, why'd it cover his entire lower body?

No he didn't. He said he awakened three abilities due to his lack of knowledge on what Kagutsuchi is, the same way Nagato never acknowledged or knew of the Perfect Susano'o resting in his eyes.

Once again, jutsu are jutsu. We've seen Sharingan having multiple jutsu in one eyeball. We've seen Danzo have one jutsu naturally, KA, in his eye, and force another jutsu, Izangi through transplanting. Show me proof that transplanting another eye can't also force another jutsu into his eye.

 

[Zawerni]

The manga explicitly stated Itachi extinguished the flames. They burn until for days, the Amaterasu caught on his wing, but spread to more of his body. The flames would have kept burning the rest of his body and the floor, but Itachi stopped it. If it was just burning his wing, why'd it cover his entire lower body?

No he didn't. He said he awakened three abilities due to his lack of knowledge on what Kagutsuchi is, the same way Nagato never acknowledged or knew of the Perfect Susano'o resting in his eyes.

Once again, jutsu are jutsu. We've seen Sharingan having multiple jutsu in one eyeball. We've seen Danzo have one jutsu naturally, KA, in his eye, and force another jutsu, Izangi through transplanting. Show me proof that transplanting another eye can't also force another jutsu into his eye.

Then that is a plot hole, as Itachi has never been able to extinguish the flames. In fact, everyone in the series referred to the Amaterasu as the "inextinguishable black flames". Jugo was surprised that Sasuke was able to extinguish them, and Shee noted Sasuke was more proficient with Amaterasu than Itachi because of his ability to manipulate it.

If Itachi had Kagutsuchi, he would know of it the same way Sasuke did. Nagato never acknowledged or knew of the Perfect Susano'o Madara's eyes had because he wasn't able to fully use the power of the eyes due to them not being his originally. He never used Susano'o period, or any other Mangekyo Sharingan jutsu, or Limbo.

Danzo was using ordinary Sharingan in his arm to cast Izanagi. And he was debating using Shisui's ordinary Sharingan to cast Izanagi again towards the end. Izanagi isn't a Mangekyo jutsu, so that doesn't prove a single Mangekyo Sharingan can have more than 1 Mangekyo jutsu.

Apparently you didn't fully read my previous post, where I clearly wrote:

Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi, Kagutsuchi, Kamui, and Kotoamatsukami are Mangekyo Sharingan jutsu. Only one of these can be present in a single eye. That same eye can still use various other genjutsu or even kinjutsu as Itachi has shown, but they can't use a second Mangekyo jutsu in that same eye (A single Mangekyo can't cast Amaterasu and Kagutsuchi, for example.)

 

[Punk Hazard]

Then that is a plot hole, as Itachi has never been able to extinguish the flames. In fact, everyone in the series referred to the Amaterasu as the "inextinguishable black flames". Jugo was surprised that Sasuke was able to extinguish them, and Shee noted Sasuke was more proficient with Amaterasu than Itachi because of his ability to manipulate it.

If Itachi had Kagutsuchi, he would know of it the same way Sasuke did. Nagato never acknowledged or knew of the Perfect Susano'o Madara's eyes had because he wasn't able to fully use the power of the eyes due to them not being his originally. He never used Susano'o period, or any other Mangekyo Sharingan jutsu, or Limbo.

Danzo was using ordinary Sharingan in his arm to cast Izanagi. And he was debating using Shisui's ordinary Sharingan to cast Izanagi again towards the end. Izanagi isn't a Mangekyo jutsu, so that doesn't prove a single Mangekyo Sharingan can have more than 1 Mangekyo jutsu.

Apparently you didn't fully read my previous post, where I clearly wrote:

Do you hear yourself? The scene of Itachi extinguishing the flames is a plot hole because there are no scenes of Itachi putting out Amaterasu? Sasuke is better because he can extinguish the flames and manipulate its shape, while Itachi can only extinguish it but can't manipulate the shapes.

Not if he doesn't know what Kagutsuchi is. It's the same way Obito unconsciously used Kamui when he was about to be buried and didn't know what Kamui was. The difference is Itachi never grew to learn what he unknowingly used was.

And nothing says Mangekyo is limited to one power per eye.

 

[Zawerni]

Do you hear yourself? The scene of Itachi extinguishing the flames is a plot hole because there are no scenes of Itachi putting out Amaterasu? Sasuke is better because he can extinguish the flames and manipulate its shape, while Itachi can only extinguish it but can't manipulate the shapes.

Not if he doesn't know what Kagutsuchi is. It's the same way Obito unconsciously used Kamui when he was about to be buried and didn't know what Kamui was. The difference is Itachi never grew to learn what he unknowingly used was.

And nothing says Mangekyo is limited to one power per eye.

Obito didn't use Kamui when he was about to be buried, he didn't have his Mangekyo at that time. The cave-in dropped Obito into one of the tunnels leading to Madara's cave. If Itachi had Kagutsuchi he would have known he was using it. Sasuke was the same way when he extinguished Killer Bee and Karin. He knew what he was trying to do despite never doing it before.

Show me an example of a single Mangekyo using more than one power. Itachi doesn't count, as there is no explanation to what happened in that fight with Sasuke, but it wasn't Kagutsuchi. Danzo doesn't count, because Izanagi isn't a Mangekyo power.

All this back and forth aside, Sasuke still doesn't have Tsukuyomi. If you still believe he does, show me proof of it. The genjutsu on Killer Bee wasn't Tsukuyomi.

 

[Punk Hazard]

Obito didn't use Kamui when he was about to be buried, he didn't have his Mangekyo at that time. The cave-in dropped Obito into one of the tunnels leading to Madara's cave. If Itachi had Kagutsuchi he would have known he was using it. Sasuke was the same way when he extinguished Killer Bee and Karin. He knew what he was trying to do despite never doing it before.

Show me an example of a single Mangekyo using more than one power. Itachi doesn't count, as there is no explanation to what happened in that fight with Sasuke, but it wasn't Kagutsuchi. Danzo doesn't count, because Izanagi isn't a Mangekyo power.

All this back and forth aside, Sasuke still doesn't have Tsukuyomi. If you still believe he does, show me proof of it. The genjutsu on Killer Bee wasn't Tsukuyomi.

Nope, Madara said he slipped through the rocks. The rocks fell on solid ground. Obito unconsciously used Kamui. That'd explain why Kakashi fainted right before Minato showed up.
Itachi extinguished the flames, clearly stated, which falls under Kagutsuchi. He just didn't know what Kagutsuchi was exactly, the same way Sasuke used Kagutsuchi without fully knowing what it was. The difference? Sasuke used his powers way more than Itachi, so he mastered and figured out what the jutsu was, while Itachi didn't.j

 

[Zawerni]

Nope, Madara said he slipped through the rocks. The rocks fell on solid ground. Obito unconsciously used Kamui. That'd explain why Kakashi fainted right before Minato showed up.
Itachi extinguished the flames, clearly stated, which falls under Kagutsuchi. He just didn't know what Kagutsuchi was exactly, the same way Sasuke used Kagutsuchi without fully knowing what it was. The difference? Sasuke used his powers way more than Itachi, so he mastered and figured out what the jutsu was, while Itachi didn't.j

Obito couldn't have slipped through with Kamui without his Mangekyo Sharingan. Madara found him in his underground tunnel, meaning the cave-in collapsed the floor of the cave he was in, dropping him into the tunnel where Madara found him. Kakashi fainted because the Mangekyo Sharingan drains more chakra than the normal Sharingan, chakra that he didn't have being a non-Uchiha

Itachi doesn't have Kagutsuchi. How he extinguished the flames, who knows. It wasn't Kagutsuchi, and Itachi isn't listed as a user of Kagutsuchi. It doesn't matter if Sasuke used it more than Itachi did. Sasuke still clearly knew what he was doing the first time he used it for Karin, meaning he was aware he had the ability. You're saying Itachi used it without being aware of it, which isn't the case.

Everyone with dojutsu in this series has shown the ability to magically know how to use their eye jutsu regardless of how many times they've used it prior.

Obito knowing how to use Kamui when he first awakened his Mangekyo. He wasn't unconscious, he knew what he was doing the entire time fighting those Mist ninja.

Sasuke using Kagutsuchi for the first time to extinguish Karin. He knew what he was doing there, otherwise he wouldn't have told Jugo to wait so he could do it.

Madara using Kamui instantly after transplanting Obito's left eye.

Kakashi using a Perfect Susano'o after getting Obito's chakra eyes despite never using a Susano'o before.

 

[Punk Hazard]

Obito couldn't have slipped through with Kamui without his Mangekyo Sharingan. Madara found him in his underground tunnel, meaning the cave-in collapsed the floor of the cave he was in, dropping him into the tunnel where Madara found him. Kakashi fainted because the Mangekyo Sharingan drains more chakra than the normal Sharingan, chakra that he didn't have being a non-Uchiha

Itachi doesn't have Kagutsuchi. How he extinguished the flames, who knows. It wasn't Kagutsuchi, and Itachi isn't listed as a user of Kagutsuchi. It doesn't matter if Sasuke used it more than Itachi did. Sasuke still clearly knew what he was doing the first time he used it for Karin, meaning he was aware he had the ability. You're saying Itachi used it without being aware of it, which isn't the case.

Everyone with dojutsu in this series has shown the ability to magically know how to use their eye jutsu regardless of how many times they've used it prior.

Obito knowing how to use Kamui when he first awakened his Mangekyo. He wasn't unconscious, he knew what he was doing the entire time fighting those Mist ninja.

Sasuke using Kagutsuchi for the first time to extinguish Karin. He knew what he was doing there, otherwise he wouldn't have told Jugo to wait so he could do it.

Madara using Kamui instantly after transplanting Obito's left eye.

Kakashi using a Perfect Susano'o after getting Obito's chakra eyes despite never using a Susano'o before.

Itachi extinguished the flames. Extinguishing the flames=Kagutsuchi. Itachi has Kagutsuchi. Nothing you can say or do about it.

 

[Zawerni]

Itachi extinguished the flames. Extinguishing the flames=Kagutsuchi. Itachi has Kagutsuchi. Nothing you can say or do about it.

Itachi isn't listed as a Kagutsuchi user. Not listed as a user=not being able to use it. Itachi doesn't have Kagutsuchi. Nothing you can say or do about it.

We can do this all day.

 

[Punk Hazard]

Itachi isn't listed as a Kagutsuchi user. Not listed as a user=not being able to use it. Itachi doesn't have Kagutsuchi. Nothing you can say or do about it.

We can do this all day.

Not listed? What list? NarutoWiki? So fans not listing him as a Kagutsuchi user outweighs Kishi showing him using it? Don't make me laugh.

 

[so12p]

Naruto just doesn't give a **** about genjutsu.

^^^^^this. Pretty much considers it a sorry game, as you read in the last chapter.

 

[Zawerni]

Not listed? What list? NarutoWiki? So fans not listing him as a Kagutsuchi user outweighs Kishi showing him using it? Don't make me laugh.

Itachi was noted for his intelligence. And as I said before, every character with eye power knew how to use it even if it was their first time using it. To say Itachi had this eye power he didn't know how to use is amusing. And to say he had it, used it, but didn't know what it was or how to use it or anything like that makes me laugh. You really believe this? A character that was known to be proficient with the Mangekyo Sharingan had a Mangekyo jutsu that he apparently knowingly used as a way to keep Sasuke's eyes from burning, yet he didn't know he used it or that he had it? That makes no sense. In that fight Black Zetsu said Itachi stopped the Amaterasu to save Sasuke's eyes. Meaning he knows he stopped it. If he had Kagutsuchi, that would mean he was aware he had it and used it there. You are trying to tell me he used this jutsu without knowing what it was or what it did, pretty much not knowing anything about it. Wow.


What character with a dojutsu has come out and said "I have this jutsu that I've never known how to use until now, check this out."? None. All of them have shown the knowledge to use it immediately after gaining it. The only exception being Kakashi, only because we didn't see it.

You are still stuck on this idea that a single Mangekyo can use more than one Mangekyo jutsu, even though it has never been shown to happen before. And you use this fantasy logic created by yourself to justify Sasuke having the Tsukuyomi.

 

[Punk Hazard]

Itachi was noted for his intelligence. And as I said before, every character with eye power knew how to use it even if it was their first time using it. To say Itachi had this eye power he didn't know how to use is amusing. And to say he had it, used it, but didn't know what it was or how to use it or anything like that makes me laugh. You really believe this? A character that was known to be proficient with the Mangekyo Sharingan had a Mangekyo jutsu that he apparently knowingly used as a way to keep Sasuke's eyes from burning, yet he didn't know he used it or that he had it? That makes no sense. In that fight Black Zetsu said Itachi stopped the Amaterasu to save Sasuke's eyes. Meaning he knows he stopped it. If he had Kagutsuchi, that would mean he was aware he had it and used it there. You are trying to tell me he used this jutsu without knowing what it was or what it did, pretty much not knowing anything about it. Wow.


What character with a dojutsu has come out and said "I have this jutsu that I've never known how to use until now, check this out."? None. All of them have shown the knowledge to use it immediately after gaining it. The only exception being Kakashi, only because we didn't see it.

You are still stuck on this idea that a single Mangekyo can use more than one Mangekyo jutsu, even though it has never been shown to happen before. And you use this fantasy logic created by yourself to justify Sasuke having the Tsukuyomi.

I never said he didn't know how to use it. He clearly knew how to extinguish the flames, he just didn't know the full extent of the ability because he didn't use his Mangekyo powers enough to reach that level. He knew he had the power to extinguish the flames, but didn't know that it was a separate technique from just Amaterasu, as Sasuke proved.

Madara knew how to use Kamui because he trained Obito and saw its powers in depth. Kakashi was able to use PS because he saw and analyzed PS before with his Sharingan when Sasuke used it. It was an asspull though. Obito didn't really know what he was doing and was just rampaging. He later trained to use his powers.

Complain all you want about it. Extinguishing the flames is Kagutsuchi and Itachi extinguished the flames. I'm sure even you can put two and two together. Ever heard of syllogism?

And you're just bent over on the idea that you can't have two Mangekyo powers in

 

[UltimateDeadpool]

Was Naruto making eye contact, or was he just looking in Sasuke's direction?

Genjutsu is just a plot device anyway, and Naruto won't lose if it is used.

 

[Byron123]

Maybe he already has eye powers that he hasn't shown us

Dun dun dunnnnnnnnnnnn

You must be registered for see images

That hamster though!