[Discussion] What do you guys think

[BakaaNaruto]

1st off I would like to say, I utterly disagree that they are anything near the legendary sannins. Perhaps some of them posses stronger jutsu, but the amount of jutsu, knowledge, experience, etc. cannot compare to the legendary sannin.

1. Oro just lost to Sasuke, cause he was very ill.. Sasuke even told Suigetsu, that he could not defeat a healthy Orochimaru. And regarding Bee, well that victory was kinda lame. Besides, Sasuke would lose to Bee without him going Bijuu form. We saw it happen. Sasuke needed life saving healing from both Karin and Jugo.

2. Naruto only beat Pain, because he knew the ability of every path, and because deva path had just used his ability to obliterate Konoha. Jiraya actually could stand better against Pain without knowledge than Naruto can. Naruto wouldn't last many minutes. Besides, Naruto actually lost, it was lucky his seal had a safe mechanism where Minato stopped the nine tailed form being released. Naruto had already given up at that point.

3. Sakura hasn't displayed any ability Tsunade isn't capable of. Despite that, Tsunade has also Katsuyu, and she has shown much better medical ninjutsu as well as better combat experience and chakra control. Her leader instinct is also light years ahead of Sakura's...

So all in all, your thread is completely invalid and based on stupid "facts", that do not take the circumstances into account. It's actually a disgrace to read it, although I must say, Naruto and Sasuke have grown since then, as they both acquired new amazing powers such as Kurama and Susanoo, however, still they haven't lived or done enough to be known as the legendary sannins yet. Perhaps after the war, people would give them a certain name, which would fit them. Being it legendary or something else is unimportant. Just stop disgracing the legendary sannins!!!

i was going to reply to OP in anger, but then I saw this.

/thread over thank you^

 

[YOUNGGUNNO]

2. You are right about Pain using his technique earlier, but that just means, Naruto alone did not beat Pain. A lot of shinobi helped, as they forced Pain to use that jutsu. Besides, Naruto did lose that fight. He had already given up. He opened the gate to the 9 tailed. He would have died that instant, if it was not for the safe guard in the seal. It was pure luck, that he had it. He even had his chakra restored. Surely if any shinobi in a close combat, had some kinda safe shield mechanism to heal him and restore his chakra, when he was about to die, it would mean a huge deal, but it's not part of Naruto's powers, as it was a one time event.
Also this thread is trying to say that Naruto has surpassed Jiraya. Well surely with beast mode he has, but yet if Naruto isn't allowed to use the toads, I am trying to argue, that Jiraya can still win. This of course gives an untrue image of Narutos strength, as the toads are part of his power as well, but how else can we compare them?


I don't think he was scared of Itachi, he just admitted, that Itachi was too strong for him. In other words, if Oro tried to take Itachis body, he couldn't and he would probably die. Besides, he would need to place a cursed seal on Itachi as well, if it should work sufficiently, and Itachi was too strong for Oro to do that.
Well, if you look at any of the fights Orochimaru was implemented in, he has never been on the verge of chakra exhaustion. Perhaps against Naruto 4 tailed, but even there, he only had to leave the battle, because his time was up, and he couldn't use his arms any longer.
Besides, the body shedding technique used by Sasuke made him run out of chakra. It clearly took a lot of chakra. How many times did we see Oro perform this jutsu, even with illness and no usable arms? Many. So it's safe to assume his chakra reserves are larger than Sasukes. Besides he is old and extremely talented, it's only assumable that a former hokage candidate trained by the 3rd is an expert at molding chakra and reserving it to keep waste at a minimum.


Surely if you compare Jiraya same age as Naruto, it can be assumed that Naruto has accomplished more at that age, however, this is not the topic of this thread. Besides, I believe it was about that age Naruto started his sage mode training anyway.. So he wasn't just "useless".
So what have Jiraya accomplished? He trained the 2 destined children, Nagato and Naruto. Naruto would never have become the destined child, if it was not for his hatred towards Nagato, and his ability to leave it be, and to believe in his masters words (Jirayas!!). Basically, if Jiraya had never shown up and taught Naruto, Naruto would never have gotten Sage mode, he would never have become the destined child, and he would never have completed control over Kurama.
Also Jiraya takes a large part of why Tsunade became hokage. Of course most would say it was Naruto, but if it was not for Jiraya, the situation had never happened. Jiraya knew that Naruto could have that effect on Tsunade, because he resembles Nawaki.
And just to fill another one in, Jiraya did train Minato, one of the best prodigies in shinobi history.
Should be enough?
But Jiraya is, basically, the reason for Narutos way of thinking, which is why he became the destined child. He is also one of the most important characters in the story, sadly his death was necessary for Naruto to evolve and learn hatred, so he could become the destined child, by overcoming the hatred.


I don't know why you are denying manga facts. Go read it again, I wont argue with this, it's completely stupid, when you just denie pure manga facts. I am not even gonna find it for you....
The big toads are same size as Kurama, so yeah, Jiraya can handle Kurama :| We saw Minato doing this against Kurama with his yin half as well. Now it's Kurama with ½ of that power, so the giant toads can cope for some time. Mean while Jiraya can pull mass jutsu's along with Ma and Pa, one being an inescapable sound genjutsu, which he has time to perform due to the giant toads keeping Kurama busy. What can Naruto do? Besides, it's pointless telling you this. I already recognized you as a fanboy, you are just overlooking important facts, and taking the outcomes, not what made the outcomes as they are. That is just silly...


You are again denying manga facts and making things up as they are in your mind. May I ask again, how long did you read this manga? And how many times have you read through it? Oro isn't obeying anyone like a dog how silly you are pathetic fan kid. Where is Oro now? Wonder what he is doing aren't you? Well we will see, however, even Oro has respect for shinobi, and since Sasuke revived him, he at least owes him something.
And Sasuke's amaterasu is stronger with EMS? Can you show me evidence of that please. I am quivering with expectations for that evidence..... And also do please show me Sasuke using a tsukuyomi, that could defeat an enemy.... And also when did Itachi use tsukuyomi on Oro? Never....... It was another genjutsu, in fact the same that Sasuke used to defeat Oro, when Oro was ill..... So it had nothing to do with MS...... And your argument about why it cannot destroy the village is stupid too. It's utterly meaningless... Wtf am I even discussing with out. This is pathetic.

Besides Oro cannot defeat the Juubi either, so reviving the kage's to do it is just as good for him as for anyone. Besides Oro has been saying he might have had a change of heart after seeing Kabuto. Are you even reading the chapters, or are you just bad at english and looking at the images? If you read the last 10 chapters, you could answer all your idiotic replies about Oro in this reply... It's actually so stupid I can't even believe I am answering, but the next idiotic answer I probably wont reply to. Give me some good arguments, just once!!!! And this discussion can continue.....

You ask for evidence when sasuke already beat Orochimaru, even when he used eight headed serpent jutsu it was not enough to beat itachi's susano'o, how Orochimaru expect to beat sasukes susano'o when sasuke has all of itachi's visual prowers from transferring his brothers eyes even the toutska blade might even be sasukes. To be blunt Orochimaru never took on a tailed beast and won, and jiraiya almost died when fighting an enraged 4 tails naruto idk how you believe that he can beat naruto now that naruto is in control of that power. The truth is, now that sasuke has EMS and naruto has
Tailed beast mode, they've far surpassed Orochimaru and jiraiya =D

 

[YOUNGGUNNO]

The ones who's truly pathetic is the one who resorts to name calling, you're really immature for a "senior" member honestly chill out am I really making you that upset. It's a debate not argument. You're calling me a fanboy or whatever when you're the one who's getting upset because his beloved sannin would die in a battle with the legendary team 7, and to be honest I'm not really all that into team 7, not even now, my favorite is MADARA UCHIHA, always have been, and always will be, so you can stop calling me a fanboy. I'm just being real jiraiya and Orochimaru are weaker than naruto and sasuke, especially now. END OF STORY... GET OVER IT.

 

[abister90]

Yeah! I think Madara will give them the title of Sannin like Hanzo did to Team Hiruzen.

Madara won't give them anything. He is too busy staring at Hashirama and following his every movement, observing Hashirama's body.

 

[Mr Hiru]

Lol hot argumenting... I have an idea.

Stay calm and drink some tea.

 

[YOUNGGUNNO]

Lol hot argumenting... I have an idea.

Stay calm and drink some tea.

Please, no trolling.

 

[thegame]

The ones who's truly pathetic is the one who resorts to name calling, you're really immature for a "senior" member honestly chill out am I really making you that upset. It's a debate not argument. You're calling me a fanboy or whatever when you're the one who's getting upset because his beloved sannin would die in a battle with the legendary team 7, and to be honest I'm not really all that into team 7, not even now, my favorite is MADARA UCHIHA, always have been, and always will be, so you can stop calling me a fanboy. I'm just being real jiraiya and Orochimaru are weaker than naruto and sasuke, especially now. END OF STORY... GET OVER IT.

It's no longer a debate when one reverts to fanboyism. This discussion has ended. You failed to place a single argument, whereas I gave plenty. Either you are just bad at English, or you don't read the replies thoroughly. Anyway it's unimportant now, as you just failed in every single response. If you think Naruto beat Pain alone, and if you think Sasuke beat Bee alone... Besides if you look at other replies in this thread, people do not agree with you. It's simply wrong. I say it one more time. Read through the chapters with those battles once again. It will be helpful..

 

[YOUNGGUNNO]

It's no longer a debate when one reverts to fanboyism. This discussion has ended. You failed to place a single argument, whereas I gave plenty. Either you are just bad at English, or you don't read the replies thoroughly. Anyway it's unimportant now, as you just failed in every single response. If you think Naruto beat Pain alone, and if you think Sasuke beat Bee alone... Besides if you look at other replies in this thread, people do not agree with you. It's simply wrong. I say it one more time. Read through the chapters with those battles once again. It will be helpful..

The truth is you never really gave any proof either, show me where Orochimaru has defeated a tailed beast, and when jiraiya beat six tailed or at least anything close? Orochimaru was already defeated by sasuke, jiraiya has only sage mode to fight against naruto when naruto has sage mode and tailed beast mode, those are facts. If my English is bad, then yours is horrible... fanboyism isn't even a word. More people agree with me than you, they believe that team 7 has surpassed the sannin in strength and ability only a few think that the sannin are still strong, but you are the most hypocritical, you're always asking for proof and evidence but you haven't shown any?? so until I see proof of Orochimaru's ability to kill sasuke or jiraiya's to kill naruto please stop making up nonsense, because like I said before sasuke has already beat Orochimaru once and jiraiya has never beaten a tailed beast let alone six tailed beast, not to mention he almost died fighting four tails naruto.

 

[thegame]

You ask for evidence, that does not exist in the manga. How pathetic is that? And you try to use ABC logic, which doesn't work in Naruto. Perhaps you never heard of it? If character A beats character B, but character B can beat character C, does that mean character A can beat character C as well? Nope. That is ABC logic, and it doesn't work that way. Character C could as well beat character A.
Also you cling to "facts" such as Sasuke beating a tailed beast... It's pathetic.

And I never said Jiraya > Naruto. I said Jiraya could win, if Naruto wasn't allowed to use sage mode and summon toads. So that it is SM Jiraya vs BM Naruto.

But Naruto is without doubt one of the most powerful characters. Not in a 1 vs 1, but if you place him in a team, he has outstanding abilities, since he can give the Kuybi's chakra to his team mates, and thus make the overall power of the team stronger. So yeah you can say Naruto has surpassed Jiraya in strength, because he still has SM.

The thing I disagree with, is the fact that Naruto earned the title of a sannin. Beating Pain was only possible because of Jiraya, and Naruto obviously didn't win alone... It was entire Konoha vs Pain...
AND NARUTO ACTUALLY LOST THE FIGHT, WHEN HE WAS ABOUT TO OPEN THE SEAL FOR KURAMA. so please... Lets just stop discussing, you cannot see the most obvious details. We can only agree to disagree, although understanding the manga properly, is not the best of your abilities. :|

 

[YOUNGGUNNO]

You ask for evidence, that does not exist in the manga. How pathetic is that? And you try to use ABC logic, which doesn't work in Naruto. Perhaps you never heard of it? If character A beats character B, but character B can beat character C, does that mean character A can beat character C as well? Nope. That is ABC logic, and it doesn't work that way. Character C could as well beat character A.
Also you cling to "facts" such as Sasuke beating a tailed beast... It's pathetic.

And I never said Jiraya > Naruto. I said Jiraya could win, if Naruto wasn't allowed to use sage mode and summon toads. So that it is SM Jiraya vs BM Naruto.

But Naruto is without doubt one of the most powerful characters. Not in a 1 vs 1, but if you place him in a team, he has outstanding abilities, since he can give the Kuybi's chakra to his team mates, and thus make the overall power of the team stronger. So yeah you can say Naruto has surpassed Jiraya in strength, because he still has SM.

The thing I disagree with, is the fact that Naruto earned the title of a sannin. Beating Pain was only possible because of Jiraya, and Naruto obviously didn't win alone... It was entire Konoha vs Pain...
AND NARUTO ACTUALLY LOST THE FIGHT, WHEN HE WAS ABOUT TO OPEN THE SEAL FOR KURAMA. so please... Lets just stop discussing, you cannot see the most obvious details. We can only agree to disagree, although understanding the manga properly, is not the best of your abilities. :|

Lady katsuyu told everyone to stay out of the fight,so how did konoha help him? He fought pain all by himself, and how did naruto lose the fight because he ALMOST ripped the seal off?? Fact is he didn't rip the seal off minato stopped him and the rebuilt the seal so naruto defeated pain by himself, and how did jiraiya help naruto beat pain?? HE WAS DEAD WHEN NARUTO FOUGHT PAIN, so it's safe to say naruto had no help when fighting with tendo pain, and had very little help when fighting the other five, from the three giant toads but other than that naruto had no help from anyone... And to your logic if A is strong enough to beat B, and B is strong enough to beat C, then that means A is also strong enough to beat C... Your logic makes no sense??

 

[thegame]

Lady katsuyu told everyone to stay out of the fight,so how did konoha help him? He fought pain all by himself, and how did naruto lose the fight because he ALMOST ripped the seal off?? Fact is he didn't rip the seal off minato stopped him and the rebuilt the seal so naruto defeated pain by himself, and how did jiraiya help naruto beat pain?? HE WAS DEAD WHEN NARUTO FOUGHT PAIN, so it's safe to say naruto had no help when fighting with tendo pain, and had very little help when fighting the other five, from the three giant toads but other than that naruto had no help from anyone... And to your logic if A is strong enough to beat B, and B is strong enough to beat C, then that means A is also strong enough to beat C... Your logic makes no sense??

Pain fought entire Konoha before Naruto arrived. That counts as part of the fight, as Pain used chakra in that fight, he also used Deva path's power, when he found out Naruto's location. So yeah entire Konoha fought Pain, it's not even a discussion, it's a pure fact, you are the first I have seen denying it...

Jiraya helped, because he learned the ability of most of the paths. Fukasaka was actually leading most of the battle, as he instructed the giant toads, and he told Naruto the abilities of the Paths, that Jiraya found out. We saw Naruto beating the Preta path with frog punch, because Fukasaka told him, that it is the one, that absorbs any ninjutsu.

Most battles in between shinobi are decided by knowledge. We saw Shikamaru easily beating Hidan 2nd time they fought, because he gained knowledge about Hidan's ability. Hidan is not very strong, but if you don't know his ability, he has potential to beat almost any shinobi. This is a fact, not an opinion. Naruto had knowledge, but Pain didn't have sufficient knowledge about Naruto's jutsu. Naruto only had this knowledge, because of Jiraya U_U
Then comes the knowledge about Nagato, which Jiraya also figured out, and later Konoha helped to decipher the message, as well as understanding the chakra rods. All these facts allowed even someone as stupid as Naruto to figure out, that the paths were being controlled remotely.

So frankly, if this cannot make you realize that Naruto didn't beat Pain on his own, well nothing can. You are denying the most obvious facts in the manga. The same goes for Sasuke, but it's probably more obvious with Sasuke, as he was fighting side by side with 3 others, even you should be able to understand that, I guess...

And again you fail to understand, why ABC logic does not work. If shinobi A beats shinobi B, the reason could be, that shinobi A had more knowledge, perhaps he had a counter ninjutsu or chakra type, or just specialized in fighting shinobi B. Shinobi B can beat shinobi C, but C has counter jutsu, chakra etc. against shinobi A, so C beats A.
This is why ABC logic doesn't work. This is also a fact.

 

[YOUNGGUNNO]

Pain fought entire Konoha before Naruto arrived. That counts as part of the fight, as Pain used chakra in that fight, he also used Deva path's power, when he found out Naruto's location. So yeah entire Konoha fought Pain, it's not even a discussion, it's a pure fact, you are the first I have seen denying it...

Jiraya helped, because he learned the ability of most of the paths. Fukasaka was actually leading most of the battle, as he instructed the giant toads, and he told Naruto the abilities of the Paths, that Jiraya found out. We saw Naruto beating the Preta path with frog punch, because Fukasaka told him, that it is the one, that absorbs any ninjutsu.

Most battles in between shinobi are decided by knowledge. We saw Shikamaru easily beating Hidan 2nd time they fought, because he gained knowledge about Hidan's ability. Hidan is not very strong, but if you don't know his ability, he has potential to beat almost any shinobi. This is a fact, not an opinion. Naruto had knowledge, but Pain didn't have sufficient knowledge about Naruto's jutsu. Naruto only had this knowledge, because of Jiraya U_U
Then comes the knowledge about Nagato, which Jiraya also figured out, and later Konoha helped to decipher the message, as well as understanding the chakra rods. All these facts allowed even someone as stupid as Naruto to figure out, that the paths were being controlled remotely.

So frankly, if this cannot make you realize that Naruto didn't beat Pain on his own, well nothing can. You are denying the most obvious facts in the manga. The same goes for Sasuke, but it's probably more obvious with Sasuke, as he was fighting side by side with 3 others, even you should be able to understand that, I guess...

And again you fail to understand, why ABC logic does not work. If shinobi A beats shinobi B, the reason could be, that shinobi A had more knowledge, perhaps he had a counter ninjutsu or chakra type, or just specialized in fighting shinobi B. Shinobi B can beat shinobi C, but C has counter jutsu, chakra etc. against shinobi A, so C beats A.
This is why ABC logic doesn't work. This is also a fact.

They fought pain before naruto was even done with sage mode, what you're saying is they indirectly helped naruto with his battle with pain, by "fighting pain, and making him weaker" but no one actually aided naruto in the battle, except hinata.
Jiraiya information was a big help no doubt, but jiraiya himself did not aid naruto against pain, pain used very little chakra against the others if any, as we seen with Nagato with bee, he can absorb others chakra to use as his own, he did this to a lot of konoha shinobi in his assault, so that means he probably gained more chakra than he lost. what you're saying that knowledge is what wins fights in the ninja world, now knowledge is a good weapon to have in a fight, but what good is it if you can't even injure your opponent, you need other skills like strength, and speed, now all those things together makes a fighter a fighter... Strength and speed can actually exceed knowledge in a fight, you yourself said naruto isn't too bright but shikamaru would probably get killed if they fought. When you're talking about logic you're talking about the real world, not ninjas, you can't use logic in a cartoon like naruto, not when they're walking on water and running up vertical walls. If fighter A has the ability to win against B, and B has the ability to beat C there is no real reason why A Would lose to C

 

[ANBUITACHIUCHIHA]

The sannin is specific to them it cant be passed down and

sasuke understood he had no chance against orichimaru when he was sick and had no jutsu.. that should show you how strong he is take away anyones jutsu and they wouldnt stand a chance let alone beat oro, but sasuje can beat oro right now i believe.. i just dont know how Oro cant die


.jiraya has a infinite imperfect sage mode with all narutos summons plus the 2 elder frogs and he knows more and has more battle experiene ..naruto couldnt figure out the 6 paths without jiraya.. and i believe jiraya in sage mode wit the frogs connected can survive against naruto BM and if naruto has to take a rest its over.. i know what your saying hes too fast.. he has experience with fast ppl he did train the 4th

and sakura has shown promise vs sasor at one point granny chiyo stopped controlling her and she let sakura evade.. shes already showed off her medical ninjutsu and strength.. BUT Tsunades cut in 2 right now and can still talk and is probably gonna heal. sakura has to come correct

 

[thegame]

Pain used his huge blast to obliterate a huge part of Konoha. One of his paths was also killed/destroyed by kakashi/choza/choji. You assume preta path absorbed much chakra, but you don't have much evidence from the manga. It's a mere assumption, as most of your reasoning is....
In the end, all the chakra that was used, was used by Nagato himself. We saw that the big blast on Konoha made him exhausted. There is of course no doubt, that he is an Uzumaki with large chakra reserves, however, he fought a long time, and looking at how close Naruto was at losing, it's only likely that he would have lost, if Pain hadn't fought Konoha at all and Deva path had its powers. Id Deva path had his abilities, he could have destroyed all the toads in one blow, Naruto would lose the main part of his information, and the toads made a huge contribution to Naruto's victory.

And the fact that this is a manga, and this is about shinobi, is actually the best prove as to why ABC logic doesn't work. So let's take Mifune. He beat Hanzo. A guy feared in the past, so much that when he gave Jiraya, Tsunade, and Oro their title as the legendary sannin, it became known in the entire shinobi world. Yet this man was beaten by a samurai with no jutsu's. So basically, by your logic, Mifune can also beat Jiraya, Tsunade, and Orochimaru in their prime, and at once. Well I must say, your logic is laughable xD
And what about Naruto's KCM clone beating 3rd raikage. But would that very clone be able to fight 10,000 men for 3 days? Hardly, KCM wouldn't even last that long, and Naruto would have no way of entering sage mode, since there is too many enemies. He would lose in less than a day. Again ABC logic, nonsense...

Well I made my point. But could give more examples, but you don't seem stupid enough not to agree with it anymore..

 

[YOUNGGUNNO]

Pain used his huge blast to obliterate a huge part of Konoha. One of his paths was also killed/destroyed by kakashi/choza/choji. You assume preta path absorbed much chakra, but you don't have much evidence from the manga. It's a mere assumption, as most of your reasoning is....
In the end, all the chakra that was used, was used by Nagato himself. We saw that the big blast on Konoha made him exhausted. There is of course no doubt, that he is an Uzumaki with large chakra reserves, however, he fought a long time, and looking at how close Naruto was at losing, it's only likely that he would have lost, if Pain hadn't fought Konoha at all and Deva path had its powers. Id Deva path had his abilities, he could have destroyed all the toads in one blow, Naruto would lose the main part of his information, and the toads made a huge contribution to Naruto's victory.

And the fact that this is a manga, and this is about shinobi, is actually the best prove as to why ABC logic doesn't work. So let's take Mifune. He beat Hanzo. A guy feared in the past, so much that when he gave Jiraya, Tsunade, and Oro their title as the legendary sannin, it became known in the entire shinobi world. Yet this man was beaten by a samurai with no jutsu's. So basically, by your logic, Mifune can also beat Jiraya, Tsunade, and Orochimaru in their prime, and at once. Well I must say, your logic is laughable xD
And what about Naruto's KCM clone beating 3rd raikage. But would that very clone be able to fight 10,000 men for 3 days? Hardly, KCM wouldn't even last that long, and Naruto would have no way of entering sage mode, since there is too many enemies. He would lose in less than a day. Again ABC logic, nonsense...

Well I made my point. But could give more examples, but you don't seem stupid enough not to agree with it anymore..

You're always saying evidence from the manga, but the manga is really only a story board of an episode to be, that means before the actually episode is released, ideas and concepts can be changed so something that's true in the manga may not be true in the anime, why are you only referring to the manga for evidence when all the manga is, is an early concept for an episode that can be changed, tweaked, or even cut out from the final piece... Because pain was at full strength in the anime, also the one killed by kakashi, choji, and choza was brought back to life in the fight against narut. Naruto wouldn't have to fight 10,000 men for 3 days like the raikage, since naruto surpassed the raikage he could take all those men out at once with a tailed beast bomb, and mifune beat hanzo one on one, when oro, tsunade, and jiraiya had to team up, so if they fought hanzo individually the would probably loose which means that if they fought mifune one on one they would loose because if they're as strong as hanzo as a team then that means that alone the only have a 3rd as strong, and so mifune probably couldn't beat them as a team, but neither did hanzo... So yeah.

 

[thegame]

Well, the manga is alpha omega. It is made by Kishi. It is his story. If you ask Kishi who is stronger, Choji or Madara, and he says Choji, it means Choji is stronger. Manga is always deciding factor, and if anime contradicts the manga, the manga is always right. So it's always more valid to use evidence from the manga.
Also not all are following the anime. There much more readers only following the manga, than people that only follow the anime.
And who are you to determine, if Pain was at full strength in the anime, when he was about to fight Naruto? You can't see that, but you can easily know, that he wasn't, as he used a lot of chakra beforehand. Of course Pain is a monster of chakra, and he was still very strong, but it still matters. Everything matters.