What are Yata Mirror and Totsuka Sword?

[SkyGodHorus]

The Totsuka no Tsurugi (十拳剣; Literally meaning "Ten Hands Long Sword") is the sword used by Izanagi to kill his newborn son, Kagu-Tsuchi, after his birth burned his mother, Izanami, to death. From the blood of Kagu-Tsuchi, eight new Shinto gods were born.
The Totsuka Sword is the sword used by the god Susanoo to slay the eight-headed and eight-tailed snake, Yamata no Orochi, just like it was used by Itachi's Susanoo to defeat Orochimaru's Eight Branches Technique (八岐の術, Yamata no Jutsu).

There you go some background, No plot hole here mate

He already knows their mythology moron. We all do. A mythological reference from outside the manga has nothing to do with its history or properties in the manga.

 

[SharinganisOP]

Juubi's existence was explained in the manga. Read about the shinju. ROFL XD

But was it really explained? I mean we know it exists. But why does it exist? Why? The juubi is the shinju, so why does the shinju exist? It couldn't have always been? Even if it grew during human times, why did it grow? Just for the shits, it decided to grow? Like why would water or some other liquid make it grow, there has to be a reason right? Something had to make it. Not enough background information. Plothole.

You get where I'm coming from here right, there isn't a particular reason for things to exist or happen, they just do. and you can always ask why or how and ask for more background information. Even if it is explained in the manga, using your logic you can explain it away in not being used in discussion, which is just wrong.

edit: Also shit, pretty much all the information about the shinju we learned from the manga was written on an edited stone tablet by black zetsu anyways. So how much of that is true for all we know... I haven't read the data book pages about it though, so it could say something there. But regardless of what it says you can always ask for more background information, the basis of your argument as to why yata and totsuka shouldn't be used in discussion.

 

[Torche]

First of all, that databook is outdated and not legitimate anymore. It's the same one that says Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi are required to unlock susano'o lols.

Second, Limbo is a spiritual technique and unlike the weapons can't even be seen or sensed unless you have the six paths power.

Third, the Kurama and susano'o avatars are also spiritual.

Fourth, the gourd is composed of liquid and contains a genjutsu, thus it is made up of matter and chakra.

Fifth, Hagoromo transcended time and was the god of the six realms. You really think he's inferior to those weapons? If they're so powerful, why didn't Madara seek them out?

It's likely either the Ootsutsukis or the Uzumakis made them. They are sealing weapons after all just like the uzumaki jutsus and Hagoromo's tools.

Did I say Databook? No, manga.

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Indeed, but as far as we know only Madara has it. However I was speaking tools/weapons wise. I should have made it clearer.

Yes, but they have a physical form. :|

Pretty sure the liquid in the gourd is the Fuuinjutsu.

Not necessarily, however it stands that whatever Totsuka pierces it seals. Hagoromo, Kaguya, Hamura, BZ, etc included.

Who's to say Madara even knew they existed? Lol Orochimaru tried seeking them out which is enough to know they are incredibly dangerous.

Bz or Kaguya's will only knew tales of them, if it was post Kaguya's time they were created then he would have known more specifics of them, no?

I've already said I am done with this thread though so I won't be replying again...

 

[Joseph Gomes]

But was it really explained? I mean we know it exists. But why does it exist? Why? The juubi is the shinju, so why does the shinju exist? It couldn't have always been? Even if it grew during human times, why did it grow? Just for the shits, it decided to grow? Like why would water or some other liquid make it grow, there has to be a reason right? Something had to make it. Not enough background information. Plothole.

You get where I'm coming from here right, there isn't a particular reason for things to exist or happen, they just do. and you can always ask why or how and ask for more background information. Even if it is explained in the manga, using your logic you can explain it away in not being used in discussion, which is just wrong.

juubi was explained in 2 different chapters. The spiritual weapons were mentioned in two different panels.

We know nothing about the spirit weapons. We know plenty about the shinju and juubi's origin

I suggest you read up on plot hole. Plot holes are inconsistencies which have no explanation. Plot holes have no relation to the main story. Juubi and shinju do. Futile comparison

 

[SharinganisOP]

juubi was explained in 2 different chapters. The spiritual weapons were mentioned in two different panels.

We know nothing about the spirit weapons. We know plenty about the shinju and juubi's origin

I suggest you read up on plot hole. Plot holes are inconsistencies which have no explanation. Plot holes have no relation to the main story. Juubi and shinju do. Futile comparison

Almost everything we have from the juubi's origin is from an edited tablet, which we know has incorrect information on it.

Plot holes aren't inconsistencies with no explanation. They are inconsistencies, which rather CAN'T have an explanation based on previously established events in the story or are completely illogical.

Something like the yata mirror or totsuka blade aren't something illogical to exist in the world of Naruto, and COULD have an explanation if the author wanted to explain them. Nothing prior or after contradicts for whatever reason their ability to exist. Just because the author allows the reader to make assumptions, does not make something a plot hole.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

Almost everything we have from the juubi's origin is from an edited tablet, which we know has incorrect information on it.

Plot holes aren't inconsistencies with no explanation. They are inconsistencies, which rather CAN'T have an explanation based on previously established events in the story or are completely illogical.

Something like the yata mirror or totsuka blade aren't something illogical to exist in the world of Naruto, and COULD have an explanation if the author wanted to explain them. Nothing prior or after contradicts for whatever reason their ability to exist. Just because the author allows the reader to make assumptions, does not make something a plot hole.

Plot holes can only be explained by assumptions. The manga is already over. There is no room for assumption. Everything that hasn't been explained are plot holes.

Juubi's origin, the edited tablet everything has been explained later on. How do you even compare them to yata and totsuka? These two weapons are plot holes because they don't explain where they've come from. Not a single word.

 

[SkyGodHorus]

Indeed, but as far as we know only Madara has it. However I was speaking tools/weapons wise. I should have made it clearer.

And Madara obtained the DNA, chakra, and powers of all four ootsutsukis. Should I have made that clearer?

Tools and weapons? Okay. The gudou damas are composed of all elements including Yin-Yang and Hagoromo and Obito made them into a staff and a giant sword that shaped the world. Better? Oh but wait! The gedo rods are used as weapons and chakra receivers and are composed of the gedo mazou's petrified chakra.

Yes, but they have a physical form. :|

Anything that takes shape has a physical form somewhere. Saying they have no physical form at all is essentially saying they don't even exist.

Pretty sure the liquid in the gourd is the Fuuinjutsu.

The liquid and the gourd are all a part of the sword dude. The liquid makes up the blade and the gourd is its hilt lols.

Not necessarily, however it stands that whatever Totsuka pierces it seals. Hagoromo, Kaguya, Hamura, BZ, etc included.

Really? So if what you're saying is true, even though it's composed of a genjutsu, Preta path, mokuton and the shinju shouldn't work on it correct, even though they absorb chakra and jutsu?

Who's to say Madara even knew they existed?

Madara was the other founder of all the villages and made it quite clear how wise he was of all jutsus and weapons. He knew of the eight gates as well.

Lol Orochimaru tried seeking them out which is enough to know they are incredibly dangerous.

Did I say they weren't dangerous? No, I said there's no basis that they transcend or predate the Ootsutsukis, while you're here speaking about it as if it's fact in your initial post. You're not trolling are you? Lols.

Bz or Kaguya's will only knew tales of them, if it was post Kaguya's time they were created then he would have known more specifics of them, no?

He did know specifics of them.

I've already said I am done with this thread though so I won't be replying again...

Whatever.

 

[End of Days]

I don't really have a problem with these two with their existing feats.
Totsuka can seal humans and yata can shield against what was shown, it's when people start making ridiculous statements which have zero basis then it becomes problematic.

Like yata can defend against truth seeing balls, totsuka can seal the juubi, all of these have absolutely no basis except a couple of hyperbole in data book

 

[Joseph Gomes]

I don't really have a problem with these two with their existing feats.
Totsuka can seal humans and yata can shield against what was shown, it's when people start making ridiculous statements which have zero basis then it becomes problematic.

Like yata can defend against truth seeing balls, totsuka can seal the juubi, all of these have absolutely no basis except a couple of hyperbole in data book

There are some retards in the previous pages claiming the spirit weapons transcend the otsutsuki's, without a single evidence

BTW, I'm not denying the feats of Yata and Totsuka. They're plot holes because their origin doesn't fit the story. However the feats are legit alright

 

[SharinganisOP]

Plot holes can only be explained by assumptions. The manga is already over. There is no room for assumption. Everything that hasn't been explained are plot holes.

Juubi's origin, the edited tablet everything has been explained later on. How do you even compare them to yata and totsuka? These two weapons are plot holes because they don't explain where they've come from. Not a single word.

You see, here is the fundamental problem. You think that anything not explained is a plot hole. Which it isn't. By that logic I can keep asking why or how until an assumption has to be made. Since an assumption is made, I can call it a plot hole by your logic. Therefore everything is a plothole by your logic.

Lack of an origin does not mean it is a plothole. Just accept this already.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

You see, here is the fundamental problem. You think that anything not explained is a plot hole. Which it isn't. By that logic I can keep asking why or how until an assumption has to be made. Since an assumption is made, I can call it a plot hole by your logic. Therefore everything is a plothole by your logic.

Lack of an origin does not mean it is a plothole. Just accept this already.

Yes it is. Plot holes are things that are not explained/can't be explained. That's literally what's meant by plot holes in comic and manga fandom. Assumptions and fanfic are enjoyed in troll discussions, not serious debates. There are plenty of plot holes in comic and manga. Naruto is no different. Kishimoto didn't bother to explain the spirit weapons. The spirit weapons existence are plot holes alright. No room for assumptions

 

[SharinganisOP]

Yes it is. Plot holes are things that are not explained/can't be explained. That's literally what's meant by plot holes in comic and manga fandom. Assumptions and fanfic are enjoyed in troll discussions, not serious debates. There are plenty of plot holes in comic and manga. Naruto is no different. Kishimoto didn't bother to explain the spirit weapons. The spirit weapons existence are plot holes alright. No room for assumptions

They aren't plot holes if you take it by the meaning of the phrase plot hole. If you take it by the seperate meaning of the two words, I guess you could call their back story a plot hole. As in the their back story has no plot and therefore there is a hole there. But the weapons themselves wouldn't be a plot hole in that sense.

That does not make it a plot hole in the sense of the phrase "plot hole" though. A "plot hole" is something that CANNOT be explained by logic or is refuted by previously established events. The totsuka blade and yata mirror are not plot holes, because they could have an explanation. They don't have one, but they could have a completely logical explanation. Nothing is stopping a logical explanation from being assumed.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

They aren't plot holes if you take it by the meaning of the phrase plot hole. If you take it by the seperate meaning of the two words, I guess you could call their back story a plot hole. As in the their back story has no plot and therefore there is a hole there. But the weapons themselves wouldn't be a plot hole in that sense.

That does not make it a plot hole in the sense of the phrase "plot hole" though. A "plot hole" is something that CANNOT be explained by logic or is refuted by previously established events. The totsuka blade and yata mirror are not plot holes, because they could have an explanation. They don't have one, but they could have a completely logical explanation. Nothing is stopping a logical explanation from being assumed.

@ the bold parts

That's the thing you don't get. I assume you never engaged in multiversal discussions? Because most people who do know that there is no place for could in comic or manga, unless there's powerscaling involved. All powerscalings follow a rule that character X > character y, like in DBZ. First of all, Naruto doesn't follow powerscaling. Second of all, the spirit weapons' existence were not explained. You can only gauge their limit by fanfic assumptions. Unfortunately, in debates about comic and manga there are rules that fanfic assumptions can't be used for discussion material

You may believe what you wish, but in a logical debate there is absolutely no room for fanfic assumption, unless powerscaling is involved like DBZ. Naruto doesn't follow powerscaling like DBZ, so assumptions are futile

 

[SharinganisOP]

@ the bold parts

That's the thing you don't get. I assume you never engaged in multiversal discussions? Because most people who do know that there is no place for could in comic or manga, unless there's powerscaling involved. All powerscalings follow a rule that character X > character y, like in DBZ. First of all, Naruto doesn't follow powerscaling. Second of all, the spirit weapons' existence were not explained. You can only gauge their limit by fanfic assumptions. Unfortunately, in debates about comic and manga there are rules that fanfic assumptions can't be used for discussion material

You may believe what you wish, but in a logical debate there is absolutely no room for fanfic assumption, unless powerscaling is involved like DBZ. Naruto doesn't follow powerscaling like DBZ, so assumptions are futile

Assumptions are made simply by pitting two people from another universe against each other. Any and all of their movements in the fight. EVERYTHING IS AN ASSUMPTION. You say there is no room for assumptions? I say assumptions are there to be debated upon. and whoever can debate the best assumption is the one who wins. Assumptions, are what a reader constantly does. And in a multiversal fight, a person can only make assumptions.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

Assumptions are made simply by pitting two people from another universe against each other. Any and all of their movements in the fight. EVERYTHING IS AN ASSUMPTION. You say there is no room for assumptions? I say assumptions are there to be debated upon. and whoever can debate the best assumption is the one who wins. Assumptions, are what a reader constantly does. And in a multiversal fight, a person can only make assumptions.

@ bold part

Yes and No. When there are two very powerful characters pitted against each other, it becomes debatable whose ability would turn out to be superior. However there's no need to assume that Flash beats Sakura. Feats are enough in this case, as Flash obliterates Sakura in 1 nanosecond

However, Yata and Totsuka have absolutely no background, and their existence can be found only by assumptions. THat's why they're plot holes. Plot holes are generally unusable for debate, and are restricted to feats only. That's why I assumed you never participated in multiversal fights. Fights are discussed based on feats, not assumptions (unless powerscaling is involved). There is no powerscaling involved with Yata and Totsuka, and they have no origin. That's why they're useless in any kind of v/s debates, because the threads would be full of fanfic assumptions

 

[SharinganisOP]

@ bold part

Yes and No. When there are two very powerful characters pitted against each other, it becomes debatable whose ability would turn out to be superior. However there's no need to assume that Flash beats Sakura. Feats are enough in this case, as Flash obliterates Sakura in 1 nanosecond

However, Yata and Totsuka have absolutely no background, and their existence can be found only by assumptions. THat's why they're plot holes. Plot holes are generally unusable for debate, and are restricted to feats only. That's why I assumed you never participated in multiversal fights. Fights are discussed based on feats, not assumptions (unless powerscaling is involved). There is no powerscaling involved with Yata and Totsuka, and they have no origin. That's why they're useless in any kind of v/s debates, because the threads would be full of fanfic assumptions

I'm sorry. I probably shouldn't have worked in an absolute and said only. I assumed in most cases the fight would be at least somewhat even on each side. But regardless anything involving that fight is an assumption, even though all logical assumptions would be toward the favor of the flash. It is still an assumption none the less.

Just because there existence can be found only by assumptions doesn't make them plotholes. They exist. Their abilties exist and are explained. lack of an origin does not make them plotholes. Them existing does not destroy the plot for whatever reason. There existences does not break the naruto universe or the logic of it. Why are they plot holes? There existence not being answered cannot be the reason why. Give me one fundamental reason as to why they are plotholes. They could easily have a logical explanation to explain their existence if the author wanted to, but he didn't. There is nothing before or after the introduction the two weapons that contradicts a reason for their existence.

I don't really take part in multiversal debates. Often because it is simply fanboys who regardless of feats will argue that the person they want wins.

Also why couldn't it be used in debates? The sword has feats. It is said to seal people, and we have seen it seal multiple people, that's more than some other methods of sealing we have seen in Naruto.

Yata is said to block all attacks. it blocked all attacks thrown at it, it is an assumption that anything physical will be stopped by it as far as the manga goes. But the databook confirms that it will indeed render anything that hits it useless. Some data has been clearly changed in the databook by future events, so everything isn't credible. But that doesn't mean we can't take things that haven't changed as non credible.

By feats it is safe and logical to say that the totsuka blade has the power to seal anyone it pierces (as more than one instance would signify it's ability to be true), and the yata mirror has the ability to block any attack from a hydrasized snake, or weaker at minimum. That could easily be used in debate going off of feats alone.

Once again. No origin does not suddenly make them a plothole. Rather than a plothole you should say that they shouldn't be allowed because it allows people to assume too much of them. Afterall we do see very little use of them, yet a person calls the person who uses them invincible simply because he has them. which further leads to more assumptions on the word invincible.

Anyways point being, regardless its not a plot hole. They can be used in discussion, but like with everything would need a valid argument to back up the assumption made.

Also I'm done, this is my last past for now. I might respond to a comment later if you make one, but for now I'm done.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

I'm sorry. I probably shouldn't have worked in an absolute and said only. I assumed in most cases the fight would be at least somewhat even on each side. But regardless anything involving that fight is an assumption, even though all logical assumptions would be toward the favor of the flash. It is still an assumption none the less.

Just because there existence can be found only by assumptions doesn't make them plotholes. They exist. Their abilties exist and are explained. lack of an origin does not make them plotholes. Them existing does not destroy the plot for whatever reason. There existences does not break the naruto universe or the logic of it. Why are they plot holes? There existence not being answered cannot be the reason why. Give me one fundamental reason as to why they are plotholes. They could easily have a logical explanation to explain their existence if the author wanted to, but he didn't. There is nothing before or after the introduction the two weapons that contradicts a reason for their existence.

I don't really take part in multiversal debates. Often because it is simply fanboys who regardless of feats will argue that the person they want wins.

Also why couldn't it be used in debates? The sword has feats. It is said to seal people, and we have seen it seal multiple people, that's more than some other methods of sealing we have seen in Naruto.

Yata is said to block all attacks. it blocked all attacks thrown at it, it is an assumption that anything physical will be stopped by it as far as the manga goes. But the databook confirms that it will indeed render anything that hits it useless. Some data has been clearly changed in the databook by future events, so everything isn't credible. But that doesn't mean we can't take things that haven't changed as non credible.

By feats it is safe and logical to say that the totsuka blade has the power to seal anyone it pierces (as more than one instance would signify it's ability to be true), and the yata mirror has the ability to block any attack from a hydrasized snake, or weaker at minimum. That could easily be used in debate going off of feats alone.

Once again. No origin does not suddenly make them a plothole. Rather than a plothole you should say that they shouldn't be allowed because it allows people to assume too much of them. Afterall we do see very little use of them, yet a person calls the person who uses them invincible simply because he has them. which further leads to more assumptions on the word invincible.

Anyways point being, regardless its not a plot hole. They can be used in discussion, but like with everything would need a valid argument to back up the assumption made.

Also I'm done, this is my last past for now. I might respond to a comment later if you make one, but for now I'm done.

I am not debunking the feats. Feats are feats, no matter how you look at them. Plot hole has nothing to do with feats. However, plot holes do restrict the upper limit of feats. If Yata Mirror's origin wasn't a plot hole we could've accepted the hyperbole. But because it has no background we can only rely on its feats for battles. That's why plot holes are usually unusable in battles. Some idiot is gonna say that Yata Mirror blocks superman's punch, which is ridiculous

Because Yata Mirror's origin is a plot hole, it should not be used in discussion, because it would make room for fanfic assumptions. I do accept the feats of Yata Mirror and Totsuka Sword, however the tools themselves are plotholes regarding the origin, that's why they must be kept away from battles, specially if the opponent has enough DC to destroy Susanoo

 

[V h o]

They are the solo god's tools. No more discussion is needed U_U

Ot: I always wanted history on the origins of Totsuka and Yata but kishi never delivered.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

They are the solo god's tools. No more discussion is needed U_U

Ot: I always wanted history on the origins of Totsuka and Yata but kishi never delivered.

That's basically the response I'm getting from this thread Lol

Seeing how Yata and Totsuka are the only spirit weapons which have no explanation of their origin, I consider them to be a plothole. What about you?

 

[ColdSummer]

To sum them up in one word: overrated.