Weakest Hokage: Tsunade vs Hiruzen

[Fecal Matter]

Hiruzen wins.​

 

[Bogard]

No he wouldn't.

When the two clones poofed after sealing Hashirama/Tobirama, Hiruzen showed no signs of side effects at all.

You don't die instantly from Shiki fujin. After the jutsu execution, there is a time limit given by the God of Death before sealing your soul away. Reason why Minato even after executing the jutsu to seal half Kyubi, still managed to use 2summoning techniques, hakke fuin, share his and Kushina's chakra in Naruto, have a small talk all that before the God of Death sealed his soul away when it was time to go [

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If Shiki fujin was that convenient, Hiruzen's death would have been meaningless since he could have done a clone+Shiki fujin on Orochimaru as well, same goes for Minato against Kyubi since he is the master of the technique and can use clone as well

 

[Rainbow Dash]

@Fizz your clone+Shiki fujin argument doesn't work unless you are saying Hiruzen would have to use a suicide jutsu in order to win this fight. He would get the drawbacks of the technique regardless if it's a clone who execute it or not

I put it out there as a suggestion. Sure it would be a tie, but does it matter?

You don't die instantly from Shiki fujin. After the jutsu execution, there is a time limit given by the God of Death before sealing your soul away. Reason why Minato even after executing the jutsu to seal half Kyubi, still managed to use 2summoning techniques, hakke fuin, share his and Kushina's chakra in Naruto, have a small talk all that before the God of Death sealed his soul away when it was time to go [

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That's true, but Tsunade has no means of defeating Hiruzen in that short time.

If Shiki fujin was that convenient, Hiruzen's death would have been meaningless since he could have done a clone+Shiki fujin on Orochimaru as well, same goes for Minato against Kyubi since he is the master of the technique and can use clone as well

Hiruzen's limit was 2 clones due to his deteriorating body, he couldn't have made any more to use. As for Minato, he was drained of most of his chakra just by teleporting Kurama. He likely couldn't afford to make anymore clones.

Since this:

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If you're trying to compare his sand to A's speed, then you are wrong. A was not using his shunshin, he was only freefalling from a couple meters high. That Free fall is much slower than his V2 Shunshin.

 

[KidGamer65]

People actually think that Hiruzen is going to use Shiki Fujin with a clone and still survive in the end? lmfao...not sure if serious.

 

[Joshutsu]

People actually think that Hiruzen is going to use Shiki Fujin with a clone and still survive in the end? lmfao...not sure if serious.

They are forgetting it still needs a soul. Katsuyu easily keeps hiruzen from getting near Tsunade and gripping her.

@whoever showed enma pushing kurama it has nothing to do with this tbh. If he tried to push katsuyu she could easily engulf it and burn it, if it transformed into a staff it would just be imobile in there. Katsuyu can be in many places at once Tsunade could easily keep one on her. and one - two aside for extra support. RDS would time out on him.

 

[aimop95]

The Four Purple Flames was stated that it's powerful enough to trap both Orochimaru and Hiruzen in. Both who are Kage level

I was also using the Four Purple Flames as a lowball. We know that this type of barrier can vary size.



I never said Hiruzen can make the same one to trap the Juubi.

Hashirama himself can maintain the barrier while having several clones out. Now the benefiting part about Hiruzen's current feats that it truly is low rank. It requires little to no chakra tax. Which is why I still believe he can use several Katon utulized with his clones while having a small barrier active.



Well, the OP does not even state the location in this one. but w/e

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, Tsunade has very limited movement when regenerating against full body area attack. She stayed in the exact same posture for 5 whole panels.




That was notreally my argument. My argument is that the cells would divide faster, thus forcing Byakugou to pump out more chakra. The weakness of is that it doesn't last long. And the more chakra you use, the shorter it becomes.



Clean the brain with a Kunai, it's guaranteed to destroy a point.

1. Until otherwise stated in the manga, assuming that Hiruzen or any Hokage can make a Four Red Yang on a smaller scale to trap smaller prey simply cannot be supported. It's obvious that it is a much larger variant than the Four Purple Flames, but the vibe I'm getting from you is that each is it's own unique jutsu that can vary in size and strength depending on the caster. I see it as the Four Purple Flames BEING the small version of the Four Red Yang. Now I don't know if you have manga proof to show me otherwise, but until then, i'm going to assume that the Four Purple Flames IS the small version of the Four Red Yang.

2. That said, my point still stands that it is impossible for any one Hokage to pull off the Four Red Yang by himself using only shadow clones (significant difference in creating an energy barrier and maintaining it).

3. The fight is obviously fast-paced, and Madara is obviously faster than her. So I don't see how this supports you at all. All I see is Madara moving faster than Tsunade, not Tsunade slowing down (and even if she was, that could be attributed to the shock of her losing her Byakugo).

4. Tsunade has massive chakra reserves. In fact, Byakugo is all about her storing up chakra over a period of years. And this fight isn't going to be as intense as facing Madara was. Because if Hiruzen was Madara level, he should be fighting Madara right now (he also should have beat orochimaru into the ground as well).

5. Assuming he can land a Kunai on her.

 

[EKSITE]

1. Until otherwise stated in the manga, assuming that Hiruzen or any Hokage can make a Four Red Yang on a smaller scale to trap smaller prey simply cannot be supported. It's obvious that it is a much larger variant than the Four Purple Flames, but the vibe I'm getting from you is that each is it's own unique jutsu that can vary in size and strength depending on the caster. I see it as the Four Purple Flames BEING the small version of the Four Red Yang. Now I don't know if you have manga proof to show me otherwise, but until then, i'm going to assume that the Four Purple Flames IS the small version of the Four Red Yang.

2. That said, my point still stands that it is impossible for any one Hokage to pull off the Four Red Yang by himself using only shadow clones (significant difference in creating an energy barrier and maintaining it).

3. The fight is obviously fast-paced, and Madara is obviously faster than her. So I don't see how this supports you at all. All I see is Madara moving faster than Tsunade, not Tsunade slowing down (and even if she was, that could be attributed to the shock of her losing her Byakugo).

4. Tsunade has massive chakra reserves. In fact, Byakugo is all about her storing up chakra over a period of years. And this fight isn't going to be as intense as facing Madara was. Because if Hiruzen was Madara level, he should be fighting Madara right now (he also should have beat orochimaru into the ground as well).

5. Assuming he can land a Kunai on her.

Actually with the barrier part I think it can because it was shown to change it's shape and short multiple times look at the corner of the barrier on the 2nd page.

Spoiler

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[Tazzilla88]

Since when is attacking Madara who just stood there doing nothing an impressive feat?

Since when were Mei's handseals fast?

Since when does post-extraction Gaara have fast sand?

Tsunade did not move faster than A, she was just the only that was able to counter Madara's Katon. If A had went in there, he would have been melted.

Except the lines in the panel, his hair, and the obvious fact that Tsunade is running suggest he was in fact moving.

Spoiler

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Since it's just a motion of hands... moving hands should obviously be faster than someone jumping.
Well let's see when Oonoki lightened Gaara's sand.

Spoiler

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Wrong they could have just moved out of the way if they were fast enough to intercept it.

lol okay, I remember Tazz. Is he/she still active? And choose anyone i really dont care, Ill have my Niguh PC set it up once you let me know who want to do it.

I'm still here but I'm taking a break from actually debating on the forum. I can't hold interest in a full debate. I'm definitely a he btw.

 

[YourMom]

If this ***** can be split in half and not die it'd be tough for Hiruzen to beat her, but I still think he pulls it out.

 

[aimop95]

Actually with the barrier part I think it can because it was shown to change it's shape and short multiple times look at the corner of the barrier on the 2nd page.

Spoiler

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Yes, but it didn't suddenly downgrade to a Four Purple Flames and it was still massive. You can open up the barrier, but the chakra consumption will still be the same befitting a Four Red Yang barrier.

 

[EZQ]

Hiruzen already has those two things.

With a good amount of stamina, Hiruzen can make at least 20 clones. Kakashi with a 3 in stamina and worn out after his battle with Zabuza was still able to make

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from what I can count. We all know that Shadow Clones can be used as

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to be able to use RDS multiple times. Fuinjutsu is a great counter to Byakugou as fuinjutsu bypasses her durability. 1 RDS is enough to bypass Byakugou's durability, there is no chance that Tsunade can take on 21+ RDS users when all of Hiruzen's clones are massively superior in Taijutsu and Speed. Which brings me to my next point, Hiruzen's underestimated speed.

Hiruzen has showcased massively superior speed feats than Tsunade, being able to

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when headed towards the battlefield. By this panel, Hiruzen's movement speed is on par with Hashirama and Tobirama's movement speed, both who are top tier in speed and easily faster than Tsunade. Hashirama on his feet was able to outrun the Perfect Susanoo and the Kyuubi to the shoreline. Tobirama was able to bypass Obito's senses and tag him, something that not even Amaterasu could do. Hiruzen by scaling his speed to Hashirama and Tobirama is easily one of the fastest characters in the story, much faster than Tsunade.

Hiruzen can also use the formation of the

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. This is a variant of the

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that the Sound 4 used. All Hiruzen needs to use this is 4 clones. If 4 Chunnin level shinobi can use it, 4 Hokage level clones should also be able to use it. In fact, the Sound 4's barrier would be large enough to trap both Tsunade and Katsuyu. Seeing as how the barrier can tank the Juubi's country buster, Tsunade has no way out of it.

Regarding C-Rank Katon, sure it's weak; but that doesn't mean it can't be used to kill Tsunade. Say Tsunade gets trapped inside Hiruzen's barrier, then Hiruzen can do the following: Set the Place on Fire. You might argue that C-Rank Katon doesn't have enough temperature to even scratch Tsunade, but people fail to realize that Hiruzen has the capabilities of raising the temperature of his Katon: and that is by utulizing his utility and Enma. Metals such as shuriken are great conductors of heat and would greatly raise the temperature of his Katon. What is devastating about this is that the databook says Hiruzen's jutsu allows him to create 1000 Shuriken. 1000 giant Shuriken would massively increase the temperature of his Katon. Not only that, but Enma is diamond. Diamond is also a great conductor of heat. Enma's staff form can also shape-shift into great sizes, allowing it to increase the heat even more. Byakugou has a

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. By setting Tsunade's area on fire, she would burn at a constant rate, thus hastening the cell division even faster. Not only that, but by setting the inside of the barrier on fire; all the oxygen molecules around her gone.

More Byakugou weak points? I'd be glad to inform you. A big weakness is that the chakra that supplies Byakugou comes from the

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. The shinobi body comprises of

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, a few of them are in the forehead area. Sure Hiruzen can't see chakra points, but if he were to sub-consciously strike the chakra point in which her Byakugou releases from, then the jutsu would stop.

Tsunade dies a slow painful death.

Hardcore fanboy? Most of this post is BS... you're overrating Hiruzen and using feats he doesn't have... Tsunade wins med diff

 

[Rainbow Dash]

Hardcore fanboy? Most of this post is BS... you're overrating Hiruzen and using feats he doesn't have... Tsunade wins med diff

Says the guy who thinks A can beat Itachi. I used all of his canonical jutsu and made combinations with one another. I hope you have seen my calculations above, i proved that Tsunade would get flattened by the immense striking force of the Kongonyoi with mathematical proof.

 

[Headmaster]

If kidgamer say a female wins a fight they win.
He soloed this thread page 1 tbh.

 

[KingHashirama]

pointless fight... its like saying Minato > Tsunade. simply dependent on the scenario...

 

[grizzlyshree]

And still she killed MADARA once. And moved faster than Mei's handseals or Gaara's sand. Or A.

i really love your posts man! its so humorous!

 

[Bantos]

i really love your posts man! its so humorous!

Both points were facts.

 

[GiantShuriken]

Orochimaru killed the shiki fujin, stop bringing it up in this argument.

 

[Bantos]

Orochimaru killed the shiki fujin, stop bringing it up in this argument.

And besides, he will die as well. It'd be a draw. AND even if he did use it on Tsunade he would have to hold Tsunade down, which would never work.

 

[Stark]

Oh God so many Hiruzen haters

 

[grizzlyshree]

Oh God so many Hiruzen haters

as far as i have seen, Tsunade wankers are mostly Hiruzen haters!