Was Jiraiya Afraid?

Infant

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When Jiraiya made his appearance during the Crushing of Konoha, he effectively refused to fight Orochimaru, saying . . .
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As if to say he couldn't help out. Since we know he could tip the scales, particularly with his knowledge of seals to undo the barrier, this implies he chose not to fight.

From this, some say Jiraiya was afraid to fight Orochimaru.

This idea has some backup to it. We know that as per their history Jiraiya has always failed to beat Orochimaru. We also know that as the Sannin Circle that Jiraiya is well countered by Orochimaru.

However, is it not also possible that if Jiraiya was afraid, it wasn't so much of Orochimaru but rather of collateral damage?

Firstly, we have this
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Which tells us that collateral damage is an issue.

Then we have the following:
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Which show us that even when drugged or restricted to mere portions of their power, battles involving the Sannin can cover large areas.

So with that in mind, is it not more likely that Jiraiya opted out of that fight for the sake of the village?
 

Nidaime Suiton

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This is just a plot hole. If Jiraiya could help Hiruzen against Orochimaru, then Orochimaru would have lost or forced to abandon, but Hiruzen would still die because nobody in Konoha could sceal Hashirama and Tobirama instead him.

In the lore, Jiraiya wasn't affraid, he couldn't break the barrier. Even in Sage Mode, if he tried a Sho Odama Rasengan against the barrier, I don't think it could work.

The only solution to help Hiruzen, was to ask Ino's father to use his Mind control jutsu in order to control one of the 4th Sound Ninja, and undo the sceal. But same thing, plot hole. Kishimoto wanted a 1 VS 1 fight in a MMA cage.

But Orochimaru himself said that he knew Sarutobi don't like mess, Hiruzen probably wanted to fight Orochimaru in 1 VS 1, for personal reason, but also because it is probably Hiruzen fighting style. (Hiruzen is very complete).
 

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jiraiya had ballz to go to rain village and attack their akasuki leader...so i dont tink he would be afraid to fight oro in his home village..
Well, Akatsuki are not much when compared to Sannin
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(Or at least, Jiraiya doesn't expect much from them, despite his information prowess)

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(Which tells us they expect Jiraiya to be able to take on both of them)

And even their leader only won because of special circumstances
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minamoto

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Well, Akatsuki are not much when compared to Sannin
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(Or at least, Jiraiya doesn't expect much from them, despite his information prowess)

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(Which tells us they expect Jiraiya to be able to take on both of them)

And even their leader only won because of special circumstances
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...
 

ParadoxBJJ

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This idea has some backup to it. We know that as per their history Jiraiya has always failed to beat Orochimaru. We also know that as the Sannin Circle that Jiraiya is well countered by Orochimaru.
Isn't Jiraya & Orochimaru dynamic admittedly similar to Naruto & Sasuke though?

The latter is more talented, starts off at a higher base, learns and develops quicker at the beginning, but finally gets surpassed by the former in the end?
 

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Isn't Jiraya & Orochimaru dynamic admittedly similar to Naruto & Sasuke though?

The latter is more talented, starts off at a higher base, learns and develops quicker at the beginning, but finally gets surpassed by the former in the end?
Youre referring to the idea of Jiraiya always losing to Orochimaru, yes?

Well, similar != same/congruent.

So Naruto and Sasuke do not necessitate it that Jiraiya also surpassed Orochimaru. At least not according to themes. Perhaps by abilities?
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If Tsunate sana was there she will rip out oro tongue like last time......
While i think Orochimaru beats her in a fair fight, her style would offer pess collateral damage and is a direct counter to his own.
 

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Or at least, Jiraiya doesn't expect much from them, despite his information prowess)
I need a scan for this
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So with that in mind, is it not more likely that Jiraiya opted out of that fight for the sake of the village?
No, not at all

The village is being INVADED, meaning that whether Jiriaya is there or not the collateral damage is going to happen. In fact, Jiriaya could actually prevent some collateral damage instead of potentially letting Manda run around, he could deal with it.

By this logic Hiruzen should have just given up since he has the potential to nuke entire districts with his five elements release combo.

If it was about collateral damage, Jiriaya would have said as much, not make up some random excuse that’s unrelated.

He didn’t want to fight Orochimaru. Keep in mind the last time they fought Jiriaya got beat, so he didn’t want to try again

When he later fights Orochimaru he drags Shizune and knows Tsunade is there for backup, which explains why he went after him that time.
 
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Nidaime Suiton

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I need a scan for this
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No, not at all

The village is being INVADED, meaning that whether Jiriaya is there or not the collateral damage is going to happen. In fact, Jiriaya could actually prevent some collateral damage instead of potentially letting Manda run around, he could deal with it.

By this logic Hiruzen should have just given up since he has the potential to nuke entire districts with his five elements release combo.

If it was about collateral damage, Jiriaya would have said as much, not make up some random excuse that’s unrelated.

He didn’t want to fight Orochimaru. Keep in mind the last time they fought Jiriaya got beat, so he didn’t want to try again

When he later fights Orochimaru he drags Shizune and knows Tsunade is there for backup, which explains why he went after him that time.
In term of brute power, Jiraiya was stronger than FG Orochimaru, because Jiraiya has access to Sage Mode. Orochimaru is very resistant as he showed it against Naruto 4 tails, so he can tank most attacks from Jiraiya, but in the other hand, Orochimaru don't have strong attack to hurt Jiraiya except his Kusanagi sword and snakes but it won't be enough to beat Jiraiya.

The only problem, is that Jiraiya need many time before to use Sage Mode, and Orochimaru won't let him.

Hiruzen can deal alone with the nerfed Edo Hashirama and Edo Tobirama, but he won't be able to hold Orochimaru back, so Jiraiya will have to deal with Orochimaru.

So Jiraiya can activate his Sage Mode, only if he waits in a hidden place in the village, and when he is ready, he has to find a way to break the barrier. If he succeed, then Orochimaru is doomed, because Hiruzen can deal with the 2 Edo Hokage and sceal them, and Orochimaru can't do anything against Jiraiya except tank his attack, so Orochimaru would be forced to abandon, and he even might die if Jiraiya use his deadly toad genjutsu, Orochimaru can't counter it.
 
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Symmetra

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In term of brute power, Jiraiya was stronger than FG Orochimaru, because Jiraiya has access to Sage Mode. Orochimaru is very resistant as he showed it against Naruto 4 tails, so he can tank most attacks from Jiraiya, but in the other hand, Orochimaru don't have strong attack to hurt Jiraiya except his Kusanagi sword and snakes but it won't be enough to beat Jiraiya
I disagree, even if Jiriaya starts in sage mode Orochimaru would still beat him. Art of the eight headed serpent is a jutsu you are forgetting, and one kusunagi swing or snake bite with poison kills Jiriaya.

The first Databook already states Jiriaya is slightly weaker then Orochimaru

Orochimaru also has senjutsu as well.


Hiruzen can deal alone with the nerfed Edo Hashirama and Edo Tobirama, but he won't be able to hold Orochimaru back, so Jiraiya will have to deal with Orochimaru.
and Jiraiya will lose


So Jiraiya can activate his Sage Mode, only if he waits in a hidden place in the village, and when he is ready, he has to find a way to break the barrier. If he succeed, then Orochimaru is doomed, because Hiruzen can deal with the 2 Edo Hokage and sceal them, and Orochimaru can't do anything against Jiraiya except tank his attack, so Orochimaru would be forced to abandon, and he even might die if Jiraiya use his deadly toad genjutsu, Orochimaru can't counter it.
Hiruzen can’t deal without the edo tensei without dying, and I’m not sure if Hiruzen can do that. It’s stated that the edos were toying with Hiruzen and holding back, but if Orochimaru made then fight at their full power Hiruzen may lose, and Jiriaya can’t stop Orochimaru.
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Or at least, Jiraiya doesn't expect much from them, despite his information prowess)
I’d really really like to see a manga scan that mentions this because I have no idea what you’re talking about. Did Jiriaya ever compare the sannin to the akatsuki???
 
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Infant

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I’d really really like to see a manga scan that mentions this because I have no idea what you’re talking about. Did Jiriaya ever compare the sannin to the akatsuki?
Sorry, i cant provide a scan right now but check when Jiraiya had Itachi and Kisame inside him

He said he would defeatthem both "right now", which tells us hesees himself as capable of such. Keeping in mind that Kisame is known for destroying villages/countries and Itachi is falsely attributed with defeating the entire clan and that Jiraiya is an information specialist who would have known about " the tailed beast without a tail" and the hype of Fugaku (equal to Minato, possessing MS), his own expectation would have been higher than their capabilities. Even so, he thought he could defeat both at the same time. Not only, but without any preparation and with two hostages against him.

This tells us he saw himself as being far above them. I don't fully agree, myself, but im just noting his own views.
 

Nidaime Suiton

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Sorry, i cant provide a scan right now but check when Jiraiya had Itachi and Kisame inside him

He said he would defeatthem both "right now", which tells us hesees himself as capable of such. Keeping in mind that Kisame is known for destroying villages/countries and Itachi is falsely attributed with defeating the entire clan and that Jiraiya is an information specialist who would have known about " the tailed beast without a tail" and the hype of Fugaku (equal to Minato, possessing MS), his own expectation would have been higher than their capabilities. Even so, he thought he could defeat both at the same time. Not only, but without any preparation and with two hostages against him.

This tells us he saw himself as being far above them. I don't fully agree, myself, but im just noting his own views.
It has been retconned.

The full potential of Kisame and Itachi had been show in Shippuden, so in no way Jiraiya, even in Sage Mode, could deal with both simultaneously.

+ Jiraiya protected Naruto. In no way he could flee as a coward and let Naruto alone just because they were stronger than him. If necessary, he was ready to die in a decent fight to protect Naruto. But Jiraiya was confident because he was at home, so if the fight started to become too long and ferocious, all jonins of the village would be alerted and in that case Kisame and Itachi would be forced to abandon because to provoke mess in the village wasn't their goal.
 

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It has been retconned.

The full potential of Kisame and Itachi had been show in Shippuden, so in no way Jiraiya, even in Sage Mode, could deal with both simultaneously.

+ Jiraiya protected Naruto. In no way he could flee as a coward and let Naruto alone just because they were stronger than him. If necessary, he was ready to die in a decent fight to protect Naruto. But Jiraiya was confident because he was at home, so if the fight started to become too long and ferocious, all jonins of the village would be alerted and in that case Kisame and Itachi would be forced to abandon because to provoke mess in the village wasn't their goal.
Well, Kisame produced the biggest water releases in Naruto while explicitly holding back.

So im not sure if he was retconned or if fans simply missed those clues.

Anyway, the point here is that Jiraiya himself expected less from them, not that he was correct or not. I myself think differently, as i noted.

Your second point is questionable. If he was not confident, it would make more sense to take both Naruto and Sasuke into the frog stomach and escape, instead of facing down someone whose hype exceeeded even his part 2 showings (village destroyer, tailed beast + clan killer >> losing to Gai who has less power than a kage which has less power than a single tailed veast; clan destroyer >> can't kill Obito without knowledge when guys like Minato matched him when effectively ambushed) ×2.

Specifics aside, the focus is on his own views.
 
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