Was Asura's line as insane as Indra's?

Exaar

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Ashura's line are such monsters!!, They're willing to protect the innocent masses even against their own family, Ohhh they slaughtered a clan that almost sparked a Ninija world war where thousands upon thousands would die and potential destruction of the fire country, Such evil!.
 

123fire

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The fact that he says it so readily, without even giving circumstances is the problem. The fact that he's willing to put strangers before his own family is the problem.

Oh so he should sacrifice millions of people just for his child? Hmmmm interesting :kk:
 

chaos control

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Naruto is the Hokage, at this point it is his responsibility. The Uchiha sacrificed their sons and daughters for the village, and deserve for the truth to be revealed. Naruto knew about the massacre's truth and didn't speak on it, agreeing to not speak on it at Kakashi's request, not even caring to actually talk in public about it.

Sasuke's just as bad as Naruto for covering it up, Uchiha or not he has a responsibility to reveal the truth.

What will it do? If people knew what kind of shit was being done behind their backs, under their noses, they'll take the initiative to stop it from happening again. Better they know and try to prevent it, than be ignorant and allow it to continue. On top of that, Konoha as a village treated the Uchiha like shit, and what do you do when a business does something rude or ghastly? You report that business and let the free-market handle it. The innocent Uchiha's that died deserve the justice of their truth being revealed.

You say that people would take initiative to prevent this from happening again, as if clan genocide is an ongoing tradition in the village that wasn't just supported by one particular hokage's cabinet.

Last time I checked, Minato, Tsunade, Kakashi, and Naruto weren't doing shady crap like that behind everyone's back. Truth be told, neither was Hashirama. Tobirama was getting there, but he didn't actually go to the extent of genocide. It was all Hiruzen's cabinet. Hiruzen, Danzou, Koharu and Homura. It was nobody other than this particular group.

Therefore your statement of "Better they know and try to prevent it, than be ignorant and allow it to continue" is flawed due to the fact that clan genocide and things of the like is not an ongoing thing. Citizens wouldn't be "allowing it to continue" because there is nothing going on to continue.

Furthermore, by the time of Kakashi's and Naruto's reign, there are much more pressing issues to be dealt with than ghosts of the past. Such issues include:

Making reparations for both Konoha and other nations after the war.
Dealing with Otsutsuki threats such as Momoshiki, Kinshiki and the rest of the clan (which is apparently still alive)
Taking care of orphans of war (or orphans in general such as the Shin clones or Sumire)
Reintegrating root members back into normal society (which was touched on in the Sumire arc)
Incidents such as Toneri bringing down the moon, Sumire unleashing the nue, or Shin's "evolution" plan
Maintaining public relationships between village's.
Finding shinobi that went missing, but weren't confirmed dead during or after the war (this was touched on in Shikamaru Hiden)
Ordeals like the exploding humans.

Etc...

I could go on and on with that list.

As you can see, there are plenty of "here and now" issues that Konoha and the shinobi world as a whole must face. How is ruining Konoha's reputation and economy going to help any of this stuff? If anything, it will make things worse. Unemployment rates would go up. There would be more homeless to deal with. This would probably lead to more sickness, death, and orphans. Etc... The world economy would suffer too since trade relations would be messed up.

It was incredibly wrong and unjust (the massacre that is). That is true. However, at the end of the day, dead people are dead! Period! Focusing on this past won't solve any current or future problems. Hiruzen, Danzou, Itachi, Obito, and most likely Koharu and Homura are all dead, so justice has been served in the best way it could be served with regards to this matter. The only other thing that they could possibly do is find some way to edo tensei and then rinne tensei the Uchiha clan (to simply give them their lives back).

If they are not going to do that, then too bad.


Your line of thinking is way too Uchiha-centric. The only thing that your idea (of having Naruto focus on the Uchiha issues) would accomplish, is hurting a bunch of innocent civilians that had nothing to do with the Uchiha clan's ordeal (and some of whom weren't even born). I'm not even just talking about Konoha civilians either. This would​ affect multiple nations. You want Kakashi and Naruto to ignore the current needs of the people in order to investigate the past of a race that no longer exists.

I must reiterate this point: You say that the Uchihas ordeal was a fault of Konoha's, but it wasn't. It was a fault of Hiruzen's cabinet (with a side of Tobirama). Don't go lumping the citizens of Konoha in with the faults of the man who was arguably the worst hokage.

Also, about this point:

"On top of that, Konoha as a village treated the Uchiha like shit, and what do you do when a business does something rude or ghastly? You report that business and let the free-market handle it."

Konoha and all of the other villages treated their jinchuuriki like crap too. Where is the negative press about that?

Kumogakure tried to steal the Hyuuga's byakugan, and this ultimately cost the life of Neji's father. Where is the negative press for Kumo on that?

Kumo also tried kidnapping Kushina. Where is the press on that?

Kirigakure treated KKG shinobi like crap. Where is the press on that?

Face it: A lot of travesties happen in the shinobi world to many groups of people, yet nobody has time to do extensive investigation on the distant​ past when there are current issues to be dealt with. Why should the Uchihas be given special treatment?

Summary: Either just revive the clan with rinne tensei or move on with current issues. Period!
 

Warlocks

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The fact that he says it so readily, without even giving circumstances is the problem. The fact that he's willing to put strangers before his own family is the problem.

madara tried to destroy the village more then 10 time yet hashi forgive him that many time

he only killed him cuz madara wont stop trying to destroy the village
 

whiteboy2345

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Ashura's line are such monsters!!, They're willing to protect the innocent masses even against their own family, Ohhh they slaughtered a clan that almost sparked a Ninija world war where thousands upon thousands would die and potential destruction of the fire country, Such evil!.

Yeah, the Will Of Fire caused a genocide and created Danzo.
 

whiteboy2345

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You say that people would take initiative to prevent this from happening again, as if clan genocide is an ongoing tradition in the village that wasn't just supported by one particular hokage's cabinet.

Last time I checked, Minato, Tsunade, Kakashi, and Naruto weren't doing shady crap like that behind everyone's back. Truth be told, neither was Hashirama. Tobirama was getting there, but he didn't actually go to the extent of genocide. It was all Hiruzen's cabinet. Hiruzen, Danzou, Koharu and Homura. It was nobody other than this particular group.

Therefore your statement of "Better they know and try to prevent it, than be ignorant and allow it to continue" is flawed due to the fact that clan genocide and things of the like is not an ongoing thing. Citizens wouldn't be "allowing it to continue" because there is nothing going on to continue.

Furthermore, by the time of Kakashi's and Naruto's reign, there are much more pressing issues to be dealt with than ghosts of the past. Such issues include:

Making reparations for both Konoha and other nations after the war.
Dealing with Otsutsuki threats such as Momoshiki, Kinshiki and the rest of the clan (which is apparently still alive)
Taking care of orphans of war (or orphans in general such as the Shin clones or Sumire)
Reintegrating root members back into normal society (which was touched on in the Sumire arc)
Incidents such as Toneri bringing down the moon, Sumire unleashing the nue, or Shin's "evolution" plan
Maintaining public relationships between village's.
Finding shinobi that went missing, but weren't confirmed dead during or after the war (this was touched on in Shikamaru Hiden)
Ordeals like the exploding humans.

Etc...

I could go on and on with that list.

As you can see, there are plenty of "here and now" issues that Konoha and the shinobi world as a whole must face. How is ruining Konoha's reputation and economy going to help any of this stuff? If anything, it will make things worse. Unemployment rates would go up. There would be more homeless to deal with. This would probably lead to more sickness, death, and orphans. Etc... The world economy would suffer too since trade relations would be messed up.

It was incredibly wrong and unjust (the massacre that is). That is true. However, at the end of the day, dead people are dead! Period! Focusing on this past won't solve any current or future problems. Hiruzen, Danzou, Itachi, Obito, and most likely Koharu and Homura are all dead, so justice has been served in the best way it could be served with regards to this matter. The only other thing that they could possibly do is find some way to edo tensei and then rinne tensei the Uchiha clan (to simply give them their lives back).

If they are not going to do that, then too bad.


Your line of thinking is way too Uchiha-centric. The only thing that your idea (of having Naruto focus on the Uchiha issues) would accomplish, is hurting a bunch of innocent civilians that had nothing to do with the Uchiha clan's ordeal (and some of whom weren't even born). I'm not even just talking about Konoha civilians either. This would​ affect multiple nations. You want Kakashi and Naruto to ignore the current needs of the people in order to investigate the past of a race that no longer exists.

I must reiterate this point: You say that the Uchihas ordeal was a fault of Konoha's, but it wasn't. It was a fault of Hiruzen's cabinet (with a side of Tobirama). Don't go lumping the citizens of Konoha in with the faults of the man who was arguably the worst hokage.

Also, about this point:

"On top of that, Konoha as a village treated the Uchiha like shit, and what do you do when a business does something rude or ghastly? You report that business and let the free-market handle it."

Konoha and all of the other villages treated their jinchuuriki like crap too. Where is the negative press about that?

Kumogakure tried to steal the Hyuuga's byakugan, and this ultimately cost the life of Neji's father. Where is the negative press for Kumo on that?

Kumo also tried kidnapping Kushina. Where is the press on that?

Kirigakure treated KKG shinobi like crap. Where is the press on that?

Face it: A lot of travesties happen in the shinobi world to many groups of people, yet nobody has time to do extensive investigation on the distant​ past when there are current issues to be dealt with. Why should the Uchihas be given special treatment?

Summary: Either just revive the clan with rinne tensei or move on with current issues. Period!

So you're basically saying we just leave the entire subject alone? If the village's idealism would push them so far as to do something so ghastly, don't you think people should know about it?

Just sweep it under the rug because it won't bring the Uchiha back? Whether the Uchiha are revived or not isn't the point of revealing the truth.
 

chaos control

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So you're basically saying we just leave the entire subject alone? If the village's idealism would push them so far as to do something so ghastly, don't you think people should know about it?

Just sweep it under the rug because it won't bring the Uchiha back? Whether the Uchiha are revived or not isn't the point of revealing the truth.

So you​'re basically saying that we should ignore the needs of the villagers, orphans, MIA shinobi, other nations, and many more people just for the sake of bringing scorn and derision to the village that will help nobody (the people it would have helped are dead), and ruin the lives of just about every body (except the actual perpetrators of the crimes, who are also long dead now to begin with)?

Should the likes of Sumire, the Shins and the Otsutsuki threats be brushed aside because the Uchihas are just so special?

You say that the village's idealism led to the Uchiha's tragedy, but that was not the village's ideology. That was Danzou's ideology, Hiruzen's weakness as a hokage, and Koharu/Homura's stupid loyalty to Danzou. It is also worth mentioning (since this thread blames Asura's line for everything), that none of the 4 people I just mentioned were actually even Asura's descendants.

Long story short: Asura's line is not at fault for that tragedy. Hashirama is not at fault. Konoha as a whole is not at fault. Hiruzen's cabinet (with a side of Tobirama, the only blame recipient within Asura's line mind you) are the only ones at fault.

So yeah, Kakashi and Naruto should just move on with current events.
 

whiteboy2345

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So you​'re basically saying that we should ignore the needs of the villagers, orphans, MIA shinobi, other nations, and many more people just for the sake of bringing scorn and derision to the village that will help nobody (the people it would have helped are dead), and ruin the lives of just about every body (except the actual perpetrators of the crimes, who are also long dead now to begin with)?

Should the likes of Sumire, the Shins and the Otsutsuki threats be brushed aside because the Uchihas are just so special?

You say that the village's idealism led to the Uchiha's tragedy, but that was not the village's ideology. That was Danzou's ideology, Hiruzen's weakness as a hokage, and Koharu/Homura's stupid loyalty to Danzou. It is also worth mentioning (since this thread blames Asura's line for everything), that none of the 4 people I just mentioned were actually even Asura's descendants.

Long story short: Asura's line is not at fault for that tragedy. Hashirama is not at fault. Konoha as a whole is not at fault. Hiruzen's cabinet (with a side of Tobirama, the only blame recipient within Asura's line mind you) are the only ones at fault.

So yeah, Kakashi and Naruto should just move on with current events.

Sorry, but the village can't walk free from what they did. Sad state of affairs but it is the truth. It's a ninja village, an organization that's pretty much a business in a sense. It was Hiruzen's responsibility to stop something like the massacre from happening, but he let it happen. No one is at fault here, but Konohagakure. If Konoha falls as a result of it's actions, it is what it is.

Letting the village get away is immoral and we both know it. If they decide to massacre a clan, and people decide to stop hiring them after hearing of it, who's fault is it then? No one's fault but their own. I understand that I sound unreasonable, but regardless of which clan did it or which line of people caused this bullshit, the village is responsible for it's actions and must take responsibility. People need to learn from what happened and if Konoha goes down, it has only itself to blame.

When you talk about the homeless, what about the Uchiha's homeless, what about their orphans? The village decided to wipe an entire group of people clean off the face of the Earth. Konoha is a business, it's a bunch of shinobi's for hire living under one organization. If that organization decides to commit genocide, and cover it up, it's still the right thing to do to reveal it so people won't do it again. If another clan just drops off the face of the Earth in another village, and people are aware of the true nature of the massacre, they'll be able to bring justice for the group that was wiped out. It's about prevention and justice.
 

whiteboy2345

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@Chaos control

By your logic, we shouldn't lock up a mass murderer because he has a wife and kids and if we lock him up they'll starve.
 

chaos control

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Sorry, but the village can't walk free from what they did. Sad state of affairs but it is the truth. It's a ninja village, an organization that's pretty much a business in a sense. It was Hiruzen's responsibility to stop something like the massacre from happening, but he let it happen. No one is at fault here, but Konohagakure. If Konoha falls as a result of it's actions, it is what it is.

Letting the village get away is immoral and we both know it. If they decide to massacre a clan, and people decide to stop hiring them after hearing of it, who's fault is it then? No one's fault but their own. I understand that I sound unreasonable, but regardless of which clan did it or which line of people caused this bullshit, the village is responsible for it's actions and must take responsibility. People need to learn from what happened and if Konoha goes down, it has only itself to blame.

When you talk about the homeless, what about the Uchiha's homeless, what about their orphans? The village decided to wipe an entire group of people clean off the face of the Earth. Konoha is a business, it's a bunch of shinobi's for hire living under one organization. If that organization decides to commit genocide, and cover it up, it's still the right thing to do to reveal it so people won't do it again. If another clan just drops off the face of the Earth in another village, and people are aware of the true nature of the massacre, they'll be able to bring justice for the group that was wiped out. It's about prevention and justice.

Konoha is not a business. It is a village. It is a home to many innocent people who had nothing to do with the Uchiha. Sure it has businesses, and the ninja business is its main business, but it is ultimately still a place of residence for many civilians.

Konoha didn't fail. Hiruzen failed. Danzou failed. Koharu failed. Homura failed. 4 people don't make up Konoha. Nobody is walking free from what they did, because nobody who is currently alive actually did anything to walk free from.

Prevention and justice you say? Justice for who? Dead people who can't benefit from said justice? Prevention of what? Nobody has done anything like that since Hiruzen's cabinet. "Justice" is useless when both the perpetrators and the victims are already dead.

What about the Uchiha's homeless you ask? Good question. Here's the answer: They have no homeless or orphans anymore because they are dead. The closest thing they have to homeless is Sarada when Sakura destroyed the house. Any homeless or orphans that the Uchiha clan had should have been taken care of when they were alive. Now that they are dead, it is too late to ask "What about the Uchiha's homeless?". Your brand of justice won't do anyone any good (not even the Uchiha).

Meanwhile, Sumire actually is an orphan. The Shins actually are orphans. Hanabi actually did get kidnapped by an alien. Etc... Real issues here!

If every travesty should be dwelled on over everything else for decades, then tell me this:

Why hasn't Kirigakure been ostracized yet for their treatment of KKG shinobi?

Why hasn't Kumogakure been ostracized yet for their multiple instances of trying to kidnap little girls such as Kushina or Hinata?

Why haven't all 5 villages (as well as some smaller villages like Takigakure) been destroyed (in terms of reputation) due to their treatment of jinchuuriki?

Where is your justice for all of those people? If they don't get such justice, then why should the Uchiha?

The world doesn't revolve around one clan.
 

chaos control

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@Chaos control

By your logic, we shouldn't lock up a mass murderer because he has a wife and kids and if we lock him up they'll starve.

Not quite right. Here's the difference between the mass murderer scenario and Konoha.

If you lock up the murderer, you are actually locking up the guy who actually killed people, and by extension you are protecting others from getting killed by this guy.

By your logic however, even if the mass murderer is already dead, we should go and kill his wife, his kids, his cousins, and his next door neighbor.

Do you see the logic here? Hiruzen's cabinet is the murderer. It is not Konoha.
 
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