Wait people do realize that Obito's Kamui is the weakest S/T Tech right?

[ComplexCity]

I'll form a rebuttal later. I don't view Minato as highly as a lot of the fan-base, but I still give credit when it's due.

As do I. Though I wouldn't bother with a rebuttal. Guy is gonna resort to ad hominems and fanfic interpretations

 

[NarutoX28]

His strategy was based on "who has the quickest draw!"

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This is (nearly) the complete one:

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So, he had no clue that Obito could teleport individual parts of his body as well? Had he attacked from the front with the same poor strategy, his attack would have gone completely through. He would have met a terrible failure. What kind of earth-shattering strategy did he make that didn't even take the "teleport a body part" into the equation?

That's a huge understatement. If you analyzed the context of the fight, Minato easily read Obito's intentions before their clash, indicated by the fact that he acknowledged that Obito wanted to end the fight quickly.

I'm not necessarily sure what you're arguing at this point because I acknowledged that attacking from the rear was an integral part of his strategy. It's the fact that he analyzed Obito's fighting style, intentions, and planned for Obito carelessly attacking him again that enabled Minato to create an opening as Obito wouldn't have even taken into consideration of Minato attacking his blind-spot using the kunai. This is exactly why Kabuto praised Itachi because he analyzed his intentions and used it against him.

Their abilities were ill-suited to fight him. They are also a lot slower. Their strategy wasn't incorrect at all, as they were aware, just like Sakura, that Obito can teleport parts of himself as well (they devised the trap because of it, despite not stating it). Their strategy, in fact, wasn't that different from Minato's as it relied on Timing, Speed and counter attack as well. However, one is retarded but the other isn't?

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Minato's stratagy was far from smooth and kink free. It worked in his favour as he wasn't aware of visual feedback aspect and teleported behind him. It was even simpler than Fuu's and Torune's as they chose to utlize body transfer and posion as well to get a full grasp of things.

Them having abilities not well-suited for the situation is irrelevant, what matters here is the fact that they decided to attack him with one of the most simplistic strategies in the manga. If you examined how Gai and Kakashi (w/o Kamui) fought against Obito, both properly timed their attacks according to the instant before Obito made physical contact with KCM Naruto and even attacked from multiple different angles. This didn't happen with Fuu and Torune. They simply ran into Obito like morons expecting him to fall for a very simplistic strategy without any back-up strategy in case Obito saw through the feint. The only timing they had was when Obito's fist was merely a few inches away from Fuu which gave Obito ample time to react to Torune's counter-attack. It was rather predictable and a very linear assault overall.

Minato however, perfectly calculated and analyzed Obito's fighting style. He waited precisely the instant before Obito made physical contact to ensure that Obito solidified and attacked from an area that he didn't expect. Minato didn't even have to be aware of visual feedback (wtf is that?) because Minato properly timed his assault in respect to Obito's attack and his intentions. Fuu and Torune didn't have such an elaborate strategy, had poor timing, and resorted to linear frontal attacks, and most of all, Fuu fell for that same strategy that they planned to use against Obito.

It's irrelevant as to what abilities Fuu and Torune used in comparison to Minato, it's only indicative of the fact that Fuu and Torune had to exert more effort into analyzing his strategy than Minato did. The simplistic method, is sometimes the best approach into dealing with situations. Minato's abilities just gave him more leeway than Fuu and Torune, but it doesn't take away from the fact that Minato put more thought into his strategy than Fuu and Torune did.

 

[NarutoX28]

As do I. Though I wouldn't bother with a rebuttal. Guy is gonna resort to ad hominems and fanfic interpretations

Damn, your fast as hell. I just edited my post and you already read it.

 

[shelke]

That's a huge understatement. If you analyzed the context of the fight, Minato easily read Obito's intentions before their clash, indicated by the fact that he acknowledged that Obito wanted to end the fight quickly.

I'm not necessarily sure what you're arguing at this point because I acknowledged that attacking from the rear was an integral part of his strategy. It's the fact that he analyzed Obito's fighting style, intentions, and planned for Obito carelessly attacking him again that enabled Minato to create an opening as Obito wouldn't have even taken into consideration of Minato attacking his blind-spot using the kunai. This is exactly why Kabuto praised Itachi because he analyzed his intentions and used it against him.

Them having abilities not well-suited for the situation is irrelevant, what matters here is the fact that they decided to attack him with one of the most simplistic strategies in the manga. If you examined how Gai and Kakashi (w/o Kamui) fought against Obito, both properly timed their attacks according to the instant before Obito made physical contact with KCM Naruto . This didn't happen with Fuu and Torune. They simply ran into Obito like morons expecting him to fall for a very simplistic strategy without any back-up strategy in case Obito saw through the feint. The only timing they had was when Obito's fist was merely a few inches away from Fuu which gave Obito ample time to react to Torune's counter-attack. It was rather predictable and a very linear assault overall.

Minato however, perfectly calculated and analyzed Obito's fighting style. He waited precisely the instant before Obito made physical contact to ensure that Obito solidified and attacked from an area that he didn't expect. Minato didn't even have to be aware of visual feedback (wtf is that?) because Minato properly timed his assault in respect to Obito's attack and his intentions. Fuu and Torune didn't have such an elaborate strategy, had poor timing, and resorted to linear strikes, and most of all, Fuu fell for that same strategy that they planned to use against Obito.

It's irrelevant as to what abilities Fuu and Torune used in comparison to Minato, it's only indicative of the fact that Fuu and Torune had to exert more effort into analyzing his strategy than Minato did.

That first para has nothing to do with my argument. Confine your analysis to Kamui only.

He didn't know about intangibility, about Kamui and it being the same technique, nor did he know about the eye working automatically. That means the risk factor of the strategy failing was greater as there are gaping holes in his analysis. You cannot deny it. He didn't go for his blind spot, as ninjas can react without looking behind themselves as well. Heck, Sasuke did it when he was 13. Minato's analysis feats are nowhere near Itachi's level who gets to the nit-grit of things. But, that is another debate I am not interested in at the moment.

What else could they have done? Going by your logic, Kakashi and Co's strategy in the forest was also irrelevant and stupid. It isn't about whether it was simple or not, it's about whether they covered more basis than Minato or not. Which they did. They got taken out quickly as Obito is a formidable opponent with Sharingan and still he didn't escape unscathed. They were weak and mismatched. They never would have won. Also, are you seriously creating an analogy here, when that team hilariously failed as well? And repeatedly, until suddenly, it all worked perfectly?

How many times did Minato face Kamui and warp away to save himself and how long did it take for him to come up with such a gamble based analysis that didn't cover three major aspects? Your entire argument can be answered with this alone.

 

[NarutoX28]

That first para has nothing to do with my argument. Confine your analysis to Kamui only.

He didn't know about intangibility, about Kamui and it being the same technique, nor did he knew about the eye working automatically. That means the risk factor of the strategy failing was greater as there are gaping holes in his analysis. He didn't go for his blind spot, as ninjas can react without looking behind themselves as well. Heck, Sasuke did it when he was 13. Minato's analysis feats are nowhere near Itachi's level, who gets to the nit-grit of things. But, all right.

You're missing the point. His analysis was effective enough for him to get the job done. He didn't have to worry about how his phasing worked because his thorough planning and analysis enabled him to force Obito into a position where he couldn't even defend himself and attack Obito's blind-spot as a result. You have to take into consideration that Minato's technique relied on vanishing instantaneously and Obito couldn't process anything of what was going on because all he could think of is that he had won. Minato exploited the moment where Obito thought he won, vanished (which dealt great confusion), and Obito doesn't have ample time to process anything because he's simply confused.

What else could they have done? Going by your logic, Kakashi and Co's strategy in the forest was also irrelevant and stupid. It isn't about whether it was simple or not, it's about whether they covered more basis than Minato or not. Which they did. They got taken out quickly as Obito is a formidable opponent with Sharingan and still he didn't escape unscathed. Also, are you seriously creating an analogy here, when that team hilariously failed as well?

How so? Kakashi used various different formations and different approaches in attacking Obito. It wasn't as simplistic as "Faking the first strike and only connecting with the second strike" which I supported was retarded because it's outright stated in the manga. Even when they didn't have abilities well-suited for the situation, a better approach would've been attacking from different angles as Gai and Kakashi (w/o Kamui) did. Instead, they resorted to linear frontal assaults which are the most predictable attacks and creates the most openings.

How many times did Minato face Kamui and how long did it take for him to come up with such a gamble based analysis that didn't cover three major aspects? Your entire argument can be answered with this alone.

Him understanding the mechanics of phasing was irrelevant because his strategy accommodated for the possibility of him phasing by forcing Obito into a position where he wouldn't even phase through Minato's attack in the first place.

 

[shelke]

You're missing the point. His analysis was effective enough for him to get the job done. He didn't have to worry about how his phasing worked because his thorough planning and analysis enabled him to force Obito into a position where he couldn't even defend himself and attack Obito's blind-spot as a result. You have to take into consideration that Minato's technique relied on vanishing instantaneously and Obito couldn't process anything of what was going on because all he could think of is that he had won. Minato exploited the moment where Obito thought he won, vanished (which dealt great confusion), and Obito doesn't have ample time to process anything because he's simply confused.

And you are missing the point that it worked on a stroke of luck given that he didn't know about three major aspects that are integral to Kamui. Minato also vanished instantly and Bee reacted easily without looking behind himself. Minato's plan being fool-proof is conjecture, when we have seen him fail even whilst attacking from behind.

How so? Kakashi used various different formations and different approaches in attacking Obito. It wasn't as simplistic as "Faking the first strike and only connecting with the second strike" which I supported was retarded because it's outright stated in the manga. Even when they didn't have abilities well-suited for the situation, a better approach would've been attacking from different angles as Gai and Kakashi (w/o Kamui) did. Instead, they resorted to linear frontal assaults which are the most predictable attacks and creates the most openings.

Kakashi had more men at his disposal. You cannot see the difference between numbers here? All right. Also, their strategy was exactly like Minato's in regards to counter attack with precise timing and speed. I can't believe you call one retarded and the other something so impressive despite being based on lesser knowledge.

Him understanding the mechanics of phasing was irrelevant because his strategy accommodated for the possibility of him phasing by forcing Obito into a position where he wouldn't even phase through Minato's attack in the first place.

It isn't irrelevant as he could have easily utilized Intangibility for that portion of the body. Easily. Something Minato had no clue about. He didn't force Obito into any position as he didn't have full intel on him. Obito lost because the plot intended him to be stupid. Otherwise, dimmer bulbs like Ae and Bee had his techs figured out and Minato failed twice to gain an upper hand on them despite the advantge of countless kunai teleport points he tossed around like a drunk moron.

 

[CloyEscapade]

Pocket universe with snipe ability and intangibility cannot be the weakest space time jutsu.

 

[NarutoX28]

And you are missing the point that it worked on a stroke of luck given that he didn't know about three major aspects that are integral to Kamui. Minato also vanished instantly and Bee reacted easily without looking behind himself. Minato's plan being fool-proof is conjecture, when we have seen him fail even whilst attacking from behind.

I'll ask you this, Why would Minato need to understand how his phasing worked when Minato carefully took into account of the possibility of Obito phasing and forced him into a position where he couldn't defend himself? You need to answer this before we debate any further.

Bee hardly reacted, but Minato's strategy didn't leave Bee as vulnerable as it did against Obito. Obito literally resorted to a linear attack with his only focus being on the fact that he had to finish the fight quickly and was going to win with ease. Bee wasn't as arrogant, didn't leave himself wide open, and Minato didn't have the necessary amount of time to decipher his fighting style. It's not even a fair comparison as the only reason Bee managed to react to Minato in the first place was because of his killer instincts as a Shinobi, something Minato knew Obito didn't have just through fighting against him. Bee is easily capable of remaining carefree in dire situations (such as, against Nagato's Chibaku Tensei) whereas Obito didn't have that sort of quality at all.

Kakashi had more men at his disposal. You cannot see the difference between numbers here? All right. Also, their strategy was exactly like Minato's in regards to counter attack with precise timing and speed. I can't believe you call one retarded and the other something so impressive despite being based on lesser knowlede.

That doesn't matter, it's the fact that Kakashi's squad used a more thorough and complex strategy than Fuu and Torune did.

Fuu and Torune didn't same level of precision, speed, and planning as Minato did as I've already established before. The fact that Minato understood that attacking from his blind-spot was a better strategy while Fuu and Torune resorted to linear frontal assaults is enough to support that.

It isn't irrelevant as he could have easily utilized Intangibility for that portion of the body. Easily. Something Minato had no clue about. He didn't force Obito into any position as he didn't have full intel on him. Obito lost because the plot intended him to be stupid. Otherwise, dimmer bulbs like Ae and Bee had his techs figured out and Minato failed twice to gain an upper hand on them despite the advantge of countless kunai teleport points he tossed around like a drunk moron.

I've already addressed why Obito couldn't utilize his intangibility at the moment. Minato analyzed his intentions and fighting style thoroughly that he waited until the very last second to warp behind Obito which ensured that Obito would've solidified. He also was quite aware that he wouldn't have been able to activate his intangibility because Obito would've been so preoccupied with his attack and believed he could win relatively quickly that Obito couldn't process anything due to him losing composure and being confused about what had happened. This is why Obito failed to warp Minato in their earlier encounter because Obito allowed Minato to regain composure and think about the situation rationally. Obito wasn't given that time to rationalize which is why he couldn't defend himself and was susceptible to Minato's counter-attack as a result.

It doesn't matter what part of the body he applies his phasing towards, if he's forced into a position where he can't react at all. All Minato ensured was that he simply couldn't phase at all and he did that through precision, planning, and analysis.

 

[shelke]

Will reply to this tomorrow. I am too tired for this.

 

[NarutoX28]

Will reply to this tomorrow. I am too tired for this.

Fair enough, I need a break too.

 

[synkross]

I've already addressed why Obito couldn't utilize his intangibility at the moment. Minato analyzed his intentions and fighting style thoroughly that he waited until the very last second to warp behind Obito which ensured that Obito would've solidified. He also was quite aware that he wouldn't have been able to activate his intangibility because Obito would've been so preoccupied with his attack and believed he could win relatively quickly that Obito couldn't process anything due to him losing composure and being confused about what had happened. This is why Obito failed to warp Minato in their earlier encounter because Obito allowed Minato to regain composure and think about the situation rationally. Obito wasn't given that time to rationalize which is why he couldn't defend himself and was susceptible to Minato's counter-attack as a result.

It doesn't matter what part of the body he applies his phasing towards, if he's forced into a position where he can't react at all. All Minato ensured was that he simply couldn't phase at all and he did that through precision, planning, and analysis.

Just to point it out that Obito's intangibility is involuntary. Anything that tries to touch him goes through as a default state.

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The only time Obito is vulnerable is when he purposefully tries to solidify (Which he does while absorbing/wrapping). The only reason Minato was able to hit the rasengan was because Obito solidified at that very instance because he had already initiated wrapping (When He says "I Win").

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Obito's hastiness in that split second cost him the fight. Otherwise the rasengan would've simply phased through him.

Another instance of this is when Obito tried to wrap Naruto in war arc.

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Here as you can see, even though Obito was about to wrap...but still Guy's kick went through him. I guess u can say that Obito was inexperienced during his fight with Minato to let that happen.

 

[NarutoX28]

Just to point it out that Obito's intangibility is involuntary. Anything that tries to touch him goes through as a default state.

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The only time Obito is vulnerable is when he purposefully tries to solidify (Which he does while absorbing/wrapping). The only reason Minato was able to hit the rasengan was because Obito solidified at that very instance because he had already initiated wrapping (When He says "I Win").

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Obito's hastiness in that split second cost him the fight. Otherwise the rasengan would've simply phased through him.

I agree and that's what I stated.

 

[DeadManWonderLand]

Kamui is the single most power eye technique
Kamui was only used at its max once and it was the only reason kaguya was defeated because it created the openings necessary to hit kaguya


Keep dreaming

 

[ComplexCity]

Guess this debate is done

 

[shelke]

CUT CUT, BUT NO, PASTE PASTE

It's involuntary because of the visual feedback, but it's good that you posted it anyway.

 

[21Cabbage]

Wasn't this the same S/T that saved Sasuke from dying from dehydration?


Yez masturr itd b 2 fadder :sdo:

The same S/t Sasuke wouldn't need because he has the same ability

 

[shelke]

I'll ask you this, Why would Minato need to understand how his phasing worked when Minato carefully took into account of the possibility of Obito phasing and forced him into a position where he couldn't defend himself? You need to answer this before we debate any further.

Bee hardly reacted, but Minato's strategy didn't leave Bee as vulnerable as it did against Obito. Obito literally resorted to a linear attack with his only focus being on the fact that he had to finish the fight quickly and was going to win with ease. Bee wasn't as arrogant, didn't leave himself wide open, and Minato didn't have the necessary amount of time to decipher his fighting style. It's not even a fair comparison as the only reason Bee managed to react to Minato in the first place was because of his killer instincts as a Shinobi, something Minato knew Obito didn't have just through fighting against him. Bee is easily capable of remaining carefree in dire situations (such as, against Nagato's Chibaku Tensei) whereas Obito didn't have that sort of quality at all.

Let me try this one last time, as you are typing a lot for something so trivial. Let me create a very simple analogy. Imagine me, against you. You saw me only turn right to grab a ball when you throw it at me with the intention of hitting me. You don't know I can turn left, down, back and forward. But, I also turn right. You devise a strategy for one facet of my movement and simply throw the ball faster. What are your chances to hit me when I try to grab the ball? 1 out of 5? It means, your strategy to hit me only covers one aspect, and thus, the chances of it working are also down by 4. I cannot make it any simpler than this.

That doesn't matter, it's the fact that Kakashi's squad used a more thorough and complex strategy than Fuu and Torune did.

Fuu and Torune didn't same level of precision, speed, and planning as Minato did as I've already established before. The fact that Minato understood that attacking from his blind-spot was a better strategy while Fuu and Torune resorted to linear frontal assaults is enough to support that.

It matters. One of them was a Doujutsu user as well. Kakashi himself was using Sharingan. Sakura was passively analyzing it. That's three people down to analyses and feedback alone. Add Yamato, Shino and Kiba's and Naruto's foolish attempts, then they had enough to formulate an analysis. Manpower matters a lot. That's seven people against Obito. Seven people automatically results in more options; more ingredients for a dish. You cannot simply deny this, when Kakashi's strategy was even more foolish than theirs. It was Sakura that saved the day ... or Zetsu.

I've already addressed why Obito couldn't utilize his intangibility at the moment. Minato analyzed his intentions and fighting style thoroughly that he waited until the very last second to warp behind Obito which ensured that Obito would've solidified. He also was quite aware that he wouldn't have been able to activate his intangibility because Obito would've been so preoccupied with his attack and believed he could win relatively quickly that Obito couldn't process anything due to him losing composure and being confused about what had happened. This is why Obito failed to warp Minato in their earlier encounter because Obito allowed Minato to regain composure and think about the situation rationally. Obito wasn't given that time to rationalize which is why he couldn't defend himself and was susceptible to Minato's counter-attack as a result.

It doesn't matter what part of the body he applies his phasing towards, if he's forced into a position where he can't react at all. All Minato ensured was that he simply couldn't phase at all and he did that through precision, planning, and analysis.

I have no problems with your first two sentences. That isn't even the argument here. My argument is his knowledge of the tech that would have resulted this in being a failture; his complete lack of knowledge on the automatic use of kamui to warp "individual body parts." He didn't know this. I am repeating this for the umpteenth time. Solidified or not, he had no idea about such an ability, despite seeing it more than once. It's about covering all the basis.

Which is where you are wrong. Obito doesn't have to react at all. I have typed this so many times now. Only his eye needs the feedback. Minato didn't ensure anything as he didn't know this. Come on, man. It's like I am typing one and thing and you are reading another.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

The same S/t Sasuke wouldn't need because he has the same ability

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so much for not needing it right?

 

[SasukeSixPack]

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so much for not needing it right?

Srs. Why do people keep using this scan and making assumptions when it really doesn't prove anything against the point?

 

[~Ethereal~]

Interesting.