[Discussion] Violence in American

V h o

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What you mention are symptoms of criminal mindsets, not causes.

Factors would be more accurate
My grandmother grew up in a house with a dirt floor. She wasn't a criminal.

I know many people who have lived without a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out of (an old time expression meaning 'poor') - the worst crimes they ever committed would have been running afoul of the game warden for hunting something out of season. They didn't steal from stores, shoot at people around them, rape the neighbors, etc.

Simply put not everyone will be a criminal, different circumstances or factors encourage actions. Even then it comes down to a person's willingness to do a crime.
Because their parents beat their ass as a kid.
Still just a factor. A good upbringing doesn't prevent someone from doing a crime.
That's pretty much what it boils down to. When the parents aren't around to instill some discipline and be role models in the lives of their children - the children generally grow up to be animals.
Not necessarily. There are children whose parent(s) is/are never around yet the children are always in school with good grades and haven't committed a crime. But again parent involvement is another factor to crime.
These animals may happen to be poor because they can barely function within the rest of society on account of poor behavior and unrealistic expectations of reward - they may destroy the environment around them; but the cause of their problem is that they simply were not raised properly.

Not necessarily still. You can have a adult who was raised properly, never committed a crime, and was an outstanding citizen. However one day they lose their job/career for x reason, and can't afford their needs/wants/comforts of life they were used to. Things like robbery to get the medication for their child, or tax fraud to pay for their mortgage they couldn't afford becomes an option; an option that would have never been considered when everything was fine. Some may take this option more quickly, others may take longer, while some may never still do it which is directly related to these factors or circumstances.

Take your typical morning drive. When people are speeding (yes speeding is a crime irc), are they speeding because they're late (factor/circumstance) which is encouraging them to go 80 instead of the 50 speed limit?
As Thomas Sowel has stated: "Each generation of children is effectively an invasion of little barbarians that must be civilized before it is too late."

Yes children do need to be taught things, if this is what this quote is referring to by "civilized".
Now, we can look at what broke families apart - but that is a bit more than I have time for at the moment.
Would just be more factors to add to the equation
 

Aim64C

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Factors would be more accurate

Symptoms.



" "Using traditional epidemiological methods, we found that low income in one's family of origin was indeed associated with higher risk of violent offending and substance misuse during adolescence," says Sariaslan. "However, the excess risks became marginal or disappeared completely when we gradually adjusted for familial risk factors." "

Simply put not everyone will be a criminal, different circumstances or factors encourage actions. Even then it comes down to a person's willingness to do a crime.

And where do you suppose one gets that internal willingness from?

Still just a factor. A good upbringing doesn't prevent someone from doing a crime.

It's not just a factor.



This is The Atlantic - only slightly to the center compared to Salon:

"The 1987 "Survey of Youth in Custody" found that 70% did not grow up with both parents. Another 1994 study of Wisconsin juveniles was even more stark: only 13% grew up with their married parents. Here's the conclusion of Cynthia Harper and Sara McLanahan, the doyenne of researchers about single parenthood: "[C]ontrolling for income and all other factors, youths in father-absent families (mother only, mother-stepfather, and relatives/other) still had significantly higher odds of incarceration than those from mother-father families."

...

Moreover, the charts ignore social science truism that correlations existing on the individual level—i.e. children of single mothers and criminal actions—do not necessarily translate to the aggregate, i.e. children of single mothers and official crime rates. Consider this other example: Crime did not increase during the Great Recession; in fact, violent crime in the United States fell to a 40-year low in 2010 even while poverty was on the rise. Yet we know that poor are more likely than others to commit crimes. We could design a chart demonstrating that crime rates and poverty rates are unrelated and ask for an apology from the many pundits who have insisted they had to be, but those pundits would rightly object that on its own, the chart can't prove that poverty doesn't cause crime.

The bottom line is that there is a large body of literature showing that children of single mothers are more likely to commit crimes than children who grow up with their married parents. This is true not just in the United States, but wherever the issue has been researched. Few experts, including Cohen, dispute this. Studies cannot prove conclusively that fatherlessness—or any other factor—actually causes people to commit crimes. For that, you'd have to do the impossible: take a large group of infants and raise each of them simultaneously in two precisely equivalent households—except one would be headed by a father and mother and the other by a lone mother. But by comparing criminals of the same race, education, income, and mother's education whose primary observable difference is family structure, social scientists have come as close as they can to making the causal case with the methodological tools available. "


Emphasis, my own.

Not necessarily. There are children whose parent(s) is/are never around yet the children are always in school with good grades and haven't committed a crime. But again parent involvement is another factor to crime.

These children are the exception and are generally observed within a population where 'complete' families are the vast majority of examples the child has outside of his/her home.

In some cases, I could argue that the parent not being around to **** up their child means the child's main influences come from outside the family - therefor the child attempts to mirror what they see in the community as opposed to the behavior of their parent who is unavailable for imitation.

Not necessarily still. You can have a adult who was raised properly, never committed a crime, and was an outstanding citizen. However one day they lose their job/career for x reason, and can't afford their needs/wants/comforts of life they were used to. Things like robbery to get the medication for their child, or tax fraud to pay for their mortgage they couldn't afford becomes an option; an option that would have never been considered when everything was fine. Some may take this option more quickly, others may take longer, while some may never still do it which is directly related to these factors or circumstances.

Again, these are the minority of the cases.

Most people sell homes, sell possessions, and down-scale their life to something they can manage to support. Friends and family tend to assist or to act as a sort of fall-back position.

Further, even if these people do commit to crime, it is very rarely a form of violent crime. Shoplifting food is considerably different than armed robbery.

Generally speaking, most of the people who end up being prosecuted for fraud, tax evasion, etc are people like Al Sharpton, Hillary Clinton, and other very wealthy individuals who have never truthfully held a regard for the law in the first place and see themselves as standing above it.

They are not people in dire straits in desperate times who committed fraud, evasion, etc - they are people who establish a pattern of lawless behavior as a means to expedient gains of power and capital.

Take your typical morning drive. When people are speeding (yes speeding is a crime irc), are they speeding because they're late (factor/circumstance) which is encouraging them to go 80 instead of the 50 speed limit?

Don't bullshit me.

I drive the interstate a lot. You can't tell me that every single person flying 90 down a highway with a speed limit of 70 is late for something. They drive 90 because they can and because the police either aren't there or have better things to do than try to pull all 30 cars drafting each other like it's NASCAR over.

Yes children do need to be taught things, if this is what this quote is referring to by "civilized".

Children are like newborn neural network learning programs. They don't know much about the world and figure the world out through a system of positive reinforcement/punishment and negative reinforcement/punishment. Behaviors that produce desirable outcomes are strengthened and repeated. Behaviors that produce undesirable outcomes are weakened and become infrequent.

At first, desirable and undesirable outcomes are simple stimulus. Pain is typically undesirable. Food is typically desirable - though certain flavors may be appreciated more than others.

Children don't inherently know what is good or bad; right or wrong. While some of them left to their own devices may come to many of the same conclusions about what is and isn't good in terms of social behavior - the goal of parenting is to produce individuals who are capable of surviving within their environment and interacting with other human beings. Thus - it's important to make sure that they understand and appreciate the same values.

A child left to his own devices has no reason to value the lives of others.

If I whack someone else over the head with a stick, it isn't me who feels the pain. In fact - it may even be a desirable outcome, depending upon what I've established as being 'good.' Seeing that kid stop what he is doing and listen to my commands when I raise the stick at him is certainly increasing my status and power - so why shouldn't it be a good thing?

If there is nothing else in that child's life to introduce experience to the contrary - then it's perfectly fine and acceptable to do what it takes to get others to listen to the child's commands.

Eventually, it gets very difficult to challenge this attitude. It isn't impossible - but this concept begins to reinforce other patterns of behavior that build up a separate framework of logic that assigns radically different values to things you and I recognize as being of greater or lesser importance. We call this "perspective" or "rationale."

At a later date, if I attempt to punish this young adult for behaving unacceptably - I am now a challenge to his authority that needs to be broken or destroyed. I'm not an authority or valid perspective - but a peer who needs to be made to obey.

It's unfortunate, but the quickest and most sure way to eliminate the threat these individuals are to society is to kill them. Reasoning with them is not a guaranteed method and their rationale so disconnected that it requires a hell of a "come to jesus" experience for them to consider that the foundation upon which they have built their logic is not acceptable. These experiences are not the norm.

That isn't to say that people won't 'cheat' when they think they won't get caught. People will. However, it is the nature of most people to over-estimate the risks associated with their behavior:

"Oddly, teens’ information-processing style seems to rely on the uniquely human “rational” parts of the brain. Reyna’s work has shown that adolescents carefully think about risks most adults wouldn’t even consider taking — like, say, playing Russian roulette — using their prefrontal cortex. They use quantitative reasoning and take about twice as long as adults do before responding, while adults immediately have a negative reaction to such risks, stemming intuitively from the insula, and almost automatically say no.

So why might the teenage brain be wired this way? Their greater tolerance for uncertainty and the unknown — and an increased desire for and focus on rewards — probably helps them leave the nest. Such explanations are speculative, Reyna cautions, but notes that “in rats, for example, adolescent rats are more likely to explore a new environment. You don’t know what you’re going to find: that’s sort of the definition of a novel environment. If you are more ambiguity tolerant, that would enable that sort of exploration.”

In other words, it takes some acceptance of uncertainty and comfort with not knowing in order to learn and to be open to new knowledge. “We come into the world with limited knowledge about what kind of consequences we will experience after making decisions and also about how likely these different outcomes are,” says Tymula. “But, of course, we want to learn, so this tolerance for unknown risks might stem from an underlying biological feature that makes learning about the unknown less unpleasant for adolescents than it is for adults.” "


So, yes - children are little barbarians who must be taught what is and is not acceptable in society, or they will kind of make it up as they go along.

Adults are, more so than teenagers, geared towards rejecting risks with known consequences out of hand. Thus - people who are taught and who see that crime has a real consequence are very unlikely to engage in it, ever.

Of course - we over-estimate the risk. Most crimes are not prosecuted and many times the criminal is not caught or there is insufficient evidence to prosecute. So, in a sense, criminals are those who 'call the bluff' and learn that they can get away with far more than others realize.

Until they are caught - but at that point, their experience suggests that there is absolutely no reason to reject the notion of criminal behavior if it can convey a personal advantage. They may simply modify their routines to be more compliant with what society expects to avoid getting caught again, or so as to provide a means that allows them to be more selective in their risk taking.

Would just be more factors to add to the equation

It's really not that complicated of an equation.

The brain operates on very, very simple principles.

"Does this get me what I want, or closer to what I want?"

If the answer is yes, then repeat this behavior and include it in other actions.

This is how we learn to walk. This is how we learn to talk. It is how we learn to behave at all levels of our existence. Some of these do not require much input from our parents, other things must be administered by our parents or the other adult figures around us.

[video=youtube;qv6UVOQ0F44]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qv6UVOQ0F44[/video]

Children are much the same way.

While our capacity is different when we are born - our overall function is the same. We are born with an inherent concept of 'fitness' or 'desirable' and 'undesirable' in the form of pain and pleasure. Even that relationship can be 'reprogrammed' given time and effort (or just the right circumstances).

There are some things that are quite possibly genetic - but the vast majority of who we are and how we behave is a product of a very similar process to how a very simple AI learns to play through a game. The structure of these programs is built off of the analysis of how neurons in our brains work and how they respond to learning experiences. It would follow that they are capable of modeling our learning behaviors, if on a much simpler and constricted scale.
 

Callypigia

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Actually Whites commit the most crimes in America

.

That's because Caucasians make up more of the population. When Latinos are the predominate race they will most likely be at the top of that list. Of course there is no real difference in violence among races. Violence is inherent in our species and racial characteristics are such a minute part of our genetic code. If I had to guess based on previous research and meta studies I've read it's more likely due to social class than race. Even that may be suspect. Most violence is about dominance and power (whether physically or monetary) which is evolutionary and how our species climbed its way to the top of the heap.

A study I conducted years ago on how we perceive violence while listening to different genres of music may also indicate that we perceive violence to be more prevalent now than people did in the past, even if there is no actual statistic to prove that. This is how my study went: A control group was shown a series of images with no music. Some of these images were violent in nature, some were neutral. The pictures were were rated on a Likert scale. Different groups were then shown these same pictures while listening to death metal, gangster rap, and classical music. These groups rated the pictures as the control group did. I found that groups that listened to death metal and gangster rap perceived the neutral pictures the same as everyone else, but they viewed the violent images as statistically (>.05) more violent.

One of the possible conclusions I drew to that is that because of modern media's obsession with violence we perceive our world to be more violent than it is, especially when violence is pretty standard throughout history.
 

V h o

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Symptoms.



" "Using traditional epidemiological methods, we found that low income in one's family of origin was indeed associated with higher risk of violent offending and substance misuse during adolescence," says Sariaslan. "However, the excess risks became marginal or disappeared completely when we gradually adjusted for familial risk factors." "

Again no. If it was a symptom, it would be seen across the board with everyone. Everyone poor would be doing crime or crime would be done by only poor people, which is obviously false. It's a factor because it increases the chance/probability of an action.


And where do you suppose one gets that internal willingness from?
Basic human nature, such as desire for something.

It's not just a factor.



This is The Atlantic - only slightly to the center compared to Salon:

"The 1987 "Survey of Youth in Custody" found that 70% did not grow up with both parents. Another 1994 study of Wisconsin juveniles was even more stark: only 13% grew up with their married parents. Here's the conclusion of Cynthia Harper and Sara McLanahan, the doyenne of researchers about single parenthood: "[C]ontrolling for income and all other factors, youths in father-absent families (mother only, mother-stepfather, and relatives/other) still had significantly higher odds of incarceration than those from mother-father families."


It is just a factor, such that it increases the likelihood of an action, action being crime. It may be a big factor, but still falls under the same scope of a factor nonetheless.
...

Moreover, the charts ignore social science truism that correlations existing on the individual level—i.e. children of single mothers and criminal actions—do not necessarily translate to the aggregate, i.e. children of single mothers and official crime rates. Consider this other example: Crime did not increase during the Great Recession; in fact, violent crime in the United States fell to a 40-year low in 2010 even while poverty was on the rise. Yet we know that poor are more likely than others to commit crimes. We could design a chart demonstrating that crime rates and poverty rates are unrelated and ask for an apology from the many pundits who have insisted they had to be, but those pundits would rightly object that on its own, the chart can't prove that poverty doesn't cause crime.

The bottom line is that there is a large body of literature showing that children of single mothers are more likely to commit crimes than children who grow up with their married parents. This is true not just in the United States, but wherever the issue has been researched. Few experts, including Cohen, dispute this. Studies cannot prove conclusively that fatherlessness—or any other factor—actually causes people to commit crimes. For that, you'd have to do the impossible: take a large group of infants and raise each of them simultaneously in two precisely equivalent households—except one would be headed by a father and mother and the other by a lone mother. But by comparing criminals of the same race, education, income, and mother's education whose primary observable difference is family structure, social scientists have come as close as they can to making the causal case with the methodological tools available. "
Again more likely to do the action.
Emphasis, my own.



These children are the exception and are generally observed within a population where 'complete' families are the vast majority of examples the child has outside of his/her home.

In some cases, I could argue that the parent not being around to **** up their child means the child's main influences come from outside the family - therefor the child attempts to mirror what they see in the community as opposed to the behavior of their parent who is unavailable for imitation.
Possibly, children are like sponges, absorbing information from everything. Gauging what gets punished and what doesn't, cost versus risk, and behaviors from people.

Again, these are the minority of the cases.

Most people sell homes, sell possessions, and down-scale their life to something they can manage to support. Friends and family tend to assist or to act as a sort of fall-back position.
How likely is a person to sell their home, less enough a paid home? Friends and family only last so long, assuming they are even on good terms with them. Yet none of this stops or improves their circumstances much at all, which still leaves the option for crime.
Further, even if these people do commit to crime, it is very rarely a form of violent crime. Shoplifting food is considerably different than armed robbery.
Point was on crime happening because of factors and various circumstances. It would obviously require far more factors to push a person (this ideal citizen) to do a violent crime such as murder or armed robbery.
Generally speaking, most of the people who end up being prosecuted for fraud, tax evasion, etc are people like Al Sharpton, Hillary Clinton, and other very wealthy individuals who have never truthfully held a regard for the law in the first place and see themselves as standing above it.

They are not people in dire straits in desperate times who committed fraud, evasion, etc - they are people who establish a pattern of lawless behavior as a means to expedient gains of power and capital.
Much like the speeding scenario earlier. Person wants x and will do y for it.
Don't bullshit me.

I drive the interstate a lot. You can't tell me that every single person flying 90 down a highway with a speed limit of 70 is late for something. They drive 90 because they can and because the police either aren't there or have better things to do than try to pull all 30 cars drafting each other like it's NASCAR over.

Lol. Ignoring the obvious dangers of speeding, these people want to get to x place at x amount of time. How late or how quickly they want to get there (factors/circumstances) increase the likelihood of speeding.
Police presence would obviously be another factor such that people slow down when they see a police car. However they still decided to break the law despite knowing the consequences.


Children are like newborn neural network learning programs. They don't know much about the world and figure the world out through a system of positive reinforcement/punishment and negative reinforcement/punishment. Behaviors that produce desirable outcomes are strengthened and repeated. Behaviors that produce undesirable outcomes are weakened and become infrequent.

At first, desirable and undesirable outcomes are simple stimulus. Pain is typically undesirable. Food is typically desirable - though certain flavors may be appreciated more than others.

Children don't inherently know what is good or bad; right or wrong. While some of them left to their own devices may come to many of the same conclusions about what is and isn't good in terms of social behavior - the goal of parenting is to produce individuals who are capable of surviving within their environment and interacting with other human beings. Thus - it's important to make sure that they understand and appreciate the same values.

A child left to his own devices has no reason to value the lives of others.
Child would still be punished in school less enough the corrections department, albeit this mindset may be deep rooted in then.
If I whack someone else over the head with a stick, it isn't me who feels the pain. In fact - it may even be a desirable outcome, depending upon what I've established as being 'good.' Seeing that kid stop what he is doing and listen to my commands when I raise the stick at him is certainly increasing my status and power - so why shouldn't it be a good thing?
Are you referring to a psychopath or some extreme case? Because this behavior would have been punished via parents,school, or at the least the corrections department once it became a crime (escalated to higher degrees of severity).
If there is nothing else in that child's life to introduce experience to the contrary - then it's perfectly fine and acceptable to do what it takes to get others to listen to the child's commands.

Eventually, it gets very difficult to challenge this attitude. It isn't impossible - but this concept begins to reinforce other patterns of behavior that build up a separate framework of logic that assigns radically different values to things you and I recognize as being of greater or lesser importance. We call this "perspective" or "rationale."

At a later date, if I attempt to punish this young adult for behaving unacceptably - I am now a challenge to his authority that needs to be broken or destroyed. I'm not an authority or valid perspective - but a peer who needs to be made to obey.
It gets to a point where authority doesn't matter in this case, or doesn't hold as much weight it would normally have.
It's unfortunate, but the quickest and most sure way to eliminate the threat these individuals are to society is to kill them. Reasoning with them is not a guaranteed method and their rationale so disconnected that it requires a hell of a "come to jesus" experience for them to consider that the foundation upon which they have built their logic is not acceptable. These experiences are not the norm.
There isn't really a guaranteed method with people in general. Some medicine works for some, some others need therapy, while others need something else. There isn't a one shot magic bullet for everyone.
That isn't to say that people won't 'cheat' when they think they won't get caught. People will. However, it is the nature of most people to over-estimate the risks associated with their behavior:

"Oddly, teens’ information-processing style seems to rely on the uniquely human “rational” parts of the brain. Reyna’s work has shown that adolescents carefully think about risks most adults wouldn’t even consider taking — like, say, playing Russian roulette — using their prefrontal cortex. They use quantitative reasoning and take about twice as long as adults do before responding, while adults immediately have a negative reaction to such risks, stemming intuitively from the insula, and almost automatically say no.

So why might the teenage brain be wired this way? Their greater tolerance for uncertainty and the unknown — and an increased desire for and focus on rewards — probably helps them leave the nest. Such explanations are speculative, Reyna cautions, but notes that “in rats, for example, adolescent rats are more likely to explore a new environment. You don’t know what you’re going to find: that’s sort of the definition of a novel environment. If you are more ambiguity tolerant, that would enable that sort of exploration.”

In other words, it takes some acceptance of uncertainty and comfort with not knowing in order to learn and to be open to new knowledge. “We come into the world with limited knowledge about what kind of consequences we will experience after making decisions and also about how likely these different outcomes are,” says Tymula. “But, of course, we want to learn, so this tolerance for unknown risks might stem from an underlying biological feature that makes learning about the unknown less unpleasant for adolescents than it is for adults.” "

So, yes - children are little barbarians who must be taught what is and is not acceptable in society, or they will kind of make it up as they go along.
Believe I agreed to this earlier on children being taught things either from society (school, community, family, or media).
Adults are, more so than teenagers, geared towards rejecting risks with known consequences out of hand. Thus - people who are taught and who see that crime has a real consequence are very unlikely to engage in it, ever.
Not really, many people know of the consequences of a crime yet their desire just takes more priority over this; cost versus risk basically. Take the speeding example, all these people know that 50 or whatever speed is the speed limit yet chose to go faster. Why? Because of these factors such as late, desire/need to be somewhere, and other various factors that influence how the brain decision making happens.
Of course - we over-estimate the risk. Most crimes are not prosecuted and many times the criminal is not caught or there is insufficient evidence to prosecute. So, in a sense, criminals are those who 'call the bluff' and learn that they can get away with far more than others realize.
Yes. They believe their reward to be greater than the risk.
Until they are caught - but at that point, their experience suggests that there is absolutely no reason to reject the notion of criminal behavior if it can convey a personal advantage. They may simply modify their routines to be more compliant with what society expects to avoid getting caught again, or so as to provide a means that allows them to be more selective in their risk taking.
Perhaps, some people are determined to act a certain way despite being punished repeatedly for it. Perhaps this mindset has been so deep rooted it takes more punishment to adjust it. Then again, this mindset was only their because of another factor such as parental neglect/absence. Also the possibility that this person just values their percieved benefit over the consequence.


It's really not that complicated of an equation.
Didnt say it was.
The brain operates on very, very simple principles.

"Does this get me what I want, or closer to what I want?"

If the answer is yes, then repeat this behavior and include it in other actions.

This is how we learn to walk. This is how we learn to talk. It is how we learn to behave at all levels of our existence. Some of these do not require much input from our parents, other things must be administered by our parents or the other adult figures around us.

[video=youtube;qv6UVOQ0F44]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qv6UVOQ0F44[/video]

Children are much the same way.

While our capacity is different when we are born - our overall function is the same. We are born with an inherent concept of 'fitness' or 'desirable' and 'undesirable' in the form of pain and pleasure. Even that relationship can be 'reprogrammed' given time and effort (or just the right circumstances).

Not sure why you are basically repeating something from ealier, which i agreed on. Zzz
There are some things that are quite possibly genetic - but the vast majority of who we are and how we behave is a product of a very similar process to how a very simple AI learns to play through a game. The structure of these programs is built off of the analysis of how neurons in our brains work and how they respond to learning experiences. It would follow that they are capable of modeling our learning behaviors, if on a much simpler and constricted scale.
Somewhat true albeit these 'responses' still vary from person to person depending on how their brain analyzed the various factors and circumstances of our daily life.

This is probably may last reply since it takes me far too much effort to quote and respond to this much text on my phone.
 

Aim64C

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Again no. If it was a symptom, it would be seen across the board with everyone. Everyone poor would be doing crime or crime would be done by only poor people, which is obviously false. It's a factor because it increases the chance/probability of an action.



" 1.
any phenomenon or circumstance accompanying something and serving as evidence of it.
2.
a sign or indication of something.
3.
Pathology. a phenomenon that arises from and accompanies a particular disease or disorder and serves as an indication of it."


Symptom. It is a symptom.

It is not a causal factor, why?

Basic human nature, such as desire for something.

I desire a lot of things I do not steal. You desire a lot of things you do not steal.

What is the causal mechanism(s) behind our abstinence from theft, murder, fraud, etc?

It is just a factor, such that it increases the likelihood of an action, action being crime. It may be a big factor, but still falls under the same scope of a factor nonetheless.

If poverty was a factor in crime, the trend would not have disappeared when factors like family were controlled for. In other words, the study showed that there is no correlation between poverty and crime.

There is, however, a correlation between family and poverty. There is also a correlation between family and crime.

Again more likely to do the action.

What correlates with that?

Possibly, children are like sponges, absorbing information from everything. Gauging what gets punished and what doesn't, cost versus risk, and behaviors from people.

Gee.

Wonder what that might have to do with their family.

How likely is a person to sell their home, less enough a paid home?

People who have a paid off home rarely have difficulty supporting it.

And, yes, people are quite likely to sell a home they are still making payments on to down-scale. Elderly people often down-scale after their families move away or as maintaining the house/grounds becomes too much of a chore.

Friends and family only last so long, assuming they are even on good terms with them.

Poverty is often temporary. Census data shows that less than 10% of the population in the top ten percent of the income brackets and the lowest ten percent of the income brackets are in completely different income brackets during the next census period (ten years - the highest resolution for that type of data we can obtain without court subpoenas to the IRS).

Yet none of this stops or improves their circumstances much at all, which still leaves the option for crime.

Because the opportunity to use crime to advance their place in life didn't exist before they fell on economic hardship?

Point was on crime happening because of factors and various circumstances. It would obviously require far more factors to push a person (this ideal citizen) to do a violent crime such as murder or armed robbery.

Not really.

The overwhelming majority of people will never commit to violent crime. Period. It doesn't matter their circumstances.

It is not unlike studies into the psychology of survival. There is the commonly held belief that "if you are hungry enough, you'll eat anything." Various trials and reviews of survivor testimony have found that this is actually not the case. Many people will not eat a snake - ever. They will starve to death even while those around them feast.

Hunger is not a factor in whether or not these people will eat a snake. They will not eat a snake.

Much like the speeding scenario earlier. Person wants x and will do y for it.

The error in your thinking is that Y correlates to X. IE - as the value of X increases, the effort one is willing to expend also increases; or that if 'factors' reduce Y below a critical value as related to X, then crime will occur based on the valued outcome.

Lol. Ignoring the obvious dangers of speeding, these people want to get to x place at x amount of time. How late or how quickly they want to get there (factors/circumstances) increase the likelihood of speeding.
Police presence would obviously be another factor such that people slow down when they see a police car. However they still decided to break the law despite knowing the consequences.

It isn't a likelihood.

On I-70, I go 75 or the flow of traffic. The speed limit is 70. This is not a factored likelihood. It is a law of my behavior. Judging by the flow of traffic - a lot of other people have no problems with 90.

There isn't a likelihood to this. This is what traffic does on I-70 between Columbia and Kansas City. There are some people who will not go faster than 70. There are some people who only go 55.

There is a difference between statistical averages and individual causes.

Child would still be punished in school less enough the corrections department, albeit this mindset may be deep rooted in then.

What kind of punishment can the school dish out? Why should the child care about what the school has to say? Or the corrections' department?

It is unreasonable to expect the schools and the police to discipline the children of society, particularly when behavior manifested at these junctures is built upon much more fundamental behavioral principles that can only be addressed by adults acting as parents and mentors to a child.

Are you referring to a psychopath or some extreme case? Because this behavior would have been punished via parents,school, or at the least the corrections department once it became a crime (escalated to higher degrees of severity).

That ideology is exactly what was given space to destroy in balt-no-more.

There isn't really a guaranteed method with people in general. Some medicine works for some, some others need therapy, while others need something else. There isn't a one shot magic bullet for everyone.

Except a bullet.

Believe I agreed to this earlier on children being taught things either from society (school, community, family, or media).

Your response was unavailable for review at that time. My flux capacitor has been re-purposed for a different project. My apologies.

Though we are not in agreement as you are abusing statistics to imply correlation is causation.

Not really, many people know of the consequences of a crime yet their desire just takes more priority over this; cost versus risk basically. Take the speeding example, all these people know that 50 or whatever speed is the speed limit yet chose to go faster. Why? Because of these factors such as late, desire/need to be somewhere, and other various factors that influence how the brain decision making happens.

You are arguing against evidenced-based conclusions in various psychological studies that I cited.

Brain scans show that adults do not use the logical section of the brain when calculating risk, but the emotional section of the brain - indicating that their decision making is biased around stimuli associated with the risk as a teenager. They are not evaluating the risk against rewards - they are simply evaluating the risk based around emotion.

Speeding is simply not a crime. People want to go a speed the feel comfortable at. I've had some scary wobbles at 90 miles an hour, and tend to avoid that side of the speedometer and -will- break from the flow of traffic when it gets much above 80. That is a -real- consequence that generates an emotional response to be avoided. On the highway, and even on most domestic roads, there isn't much increased risk with speeding. Most people go what is comfortable on those roads, and it does happen to be within the speed limit. Inexperienced drivers are more likely to speed until they have an incident on such a road that scares the shit out of them. Then they learn to slow down.

Being pulled over by a police officer isn't a 'crime.' It is an inconvenience - but it doesn't usually trigger much in the way of an "oh my god don't ever do that" experience.

Coming around a tight corner on a state highway and meeting a tractor trailer with only an inch or two between you and that giant rolling death machine, however, is plenty motivation to approach similar road conditions with some caution. You only need to experience that a few times before the very -real- consequence of becoming a grill insert for a semi is impressed upon your brain.

Yes. They believe their reward to be greater than the risk.

Not by the time they are adults. Emotional reasoning has dominated by this point in time and the activity is repeated purely for the association with the pleasure one gets from receiving the reward. The risk is often times not even considered.

Those who actually do compute the risk and take precautions accordingly are few and far between. This is generally why most criminals are considered to be 'dumb' and often are caught in rather 'dumb' behavior for seemingly ridiculous 'rewards.' The reward does not at all compare to the risk, and yet they will act simply without consideration for the risk.

Not sure why you are basically repeating something from ealier, which i agreed on. Zzz

You're one of those people who pass the written test but fail the practical application section. Remediation is necessary.

This is probably may last reply since it takes me far too much effort to quote and respond to this much text on my phone.

I admire your persistence... but real intellectuals use a computer for such tasks.

:p
 

V h o

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" 1.
any phenomenon or circumstance accompanying something and serving as evidence of it.
2.
a sign or indication of something.
3.
Pathology. a phenomenon that arises from and accompanies a particular disease or disorder and serves as an indication of it."


Symptom. It is a symptom.

It is not a causal factor, why?
Poverty, urban blight, poor education are not symptoms or evidence of crime. These are factors

Factor:
one of the elements contributing to a particular result or situation
Urban blight, poverty, and poor education contribute to crime, they are not evidence or a symptom of crime.
Not going to respond to you anymore after the insults:|
I desire a lot of things I do not steal. You desire a lot of things you do not steal.

What is the causal mechanism(s) behind our abstinence from theft, murder, fraud, etc?



If poverty was a factor in crime, the trend would not have disappeared when factors like family were controlled for. In other words, the study showed that there is no correlation between poverty and crime.

There is, however, a correlation between family and poverty. There is also a correlation between family and crime.



What correlates with that?



Gee.

Wonder what that might have to do with their family.



People who have a paid off home rarely have difficulty supporting it.

And, yes, people are quite likely to sell a home they are still making payments on to down-scale. Elderly people often down-scale after their families move away or as maintaining the house/grounds becomes too much of a chore.



Poverty is often temporary. Census data shows that less than 10% of the population in the top ten percent of the income brackets and the lowest ten percent of the income brackets are in completely different income brackets during the next census period (ten years - the highest resolution for that type of data we can obtain without court subpoenas to the IRS).



Because the opportunity to use crime to advance their place in life didn't exist before they fell on economic hardship?



Not really.

The overwhelming majority of people will never commit to violent crime. Period. It doesn't matter their circumstances.

It is not unlike studies into the psychology of survival. There is the commonly held belief that "if you are hungry enough, you'll eat anything." Various trials and reviews of survivor testimony have found that this is actually not the case. Many people will not eat a snake - ever. They will starve to death even while those around them feast.

Hunger is not a factor in whether or not these people will eat a snake. They will not eat a snake.



The error in your thinking is that Y correlates to X. IE - as the value of X increases, the effort one is willing to expend also increases; or that if 'factors' reduce Y below a critical value as related to X, then crime will occur based on the valued outcome.



It isn't a likelihood.

On I-70, I go 75 or the flow of traffic. The speed limit is 70. This is not a factored likelihood. It is a law of my behavior. Judging by the flow of traffic - a lot of other people have no problems with 90.

There isn't a likelihood to this. This is what traffic does on I-70 between Columbia and Kansas City. There are some people who will not go faster than 70. There are some people who only go 55.

There is a difference between statistical averages and individual causes.



What kind of punishment can the school dish out? Why should the child care about what the school has to say? Or the corrections' department?

It is unreasonable to expect the schools and the police to discipline the children of society, particularly when behavior manifested at these junctures is built upon much more fundamental behavioral principles that can only be addressed by adults acting as parents and mentors to a child.



That ideology is exactly what was given space to destroy in balt-no-more.



Except a bullet.



Your response was unavailable for review at that time. My flux capacitor has been re-purposed for a different project. My apologies.

Though we are not in agreement as you are abusing statistics to imply correlation is causation.



You are arguing against evidenced-based conclusions in various psychological studies that I cited.

Brain scans show that adults do not use the logical section of the brain when calculating risk, but the emotional section of the brain - indicating that their decision making is biased around stimuli associated with the risk as a teenager. They are not evaluating the risk against rewards - they are simply evaluating the risk based around emotion.

Speeding is simply not a crime. People want to go a speed the feel comfortable at. I've had some scary wobbles at 90 miles an hour, and tend to avoid that side of the speedometer and -will- break from the flow of traffic when it gets much above 80. That is a -real- consequence that generates an emotional response to be avoided. On the highway, and even on most domestic roads, there isn't much increased risk with speeding. Most people go what is comfortable on those roads, and it does happen to be within the speed limit. Inexperienced drivers are more likely to speed until they have an incident on such a road that scares the shit out of them. Then they learn to slow down.

Being pulled over by a police officer isn't a 'crime.' It is an inconvenience - but it doesn't usually trigger much in the way of an "oh my god don't ever do that" experience.

Coming around a tight corner on a state highway and meeting a tractor trailer with only an inch or two between you and that giant rolling death machine, however, is plenty motivation to approach similar road conditions with some caution. You only need to experience that a few times before the very -real- consequence of becoming a grill insert for a semi is impressed upon your brain.



Not by the time they are adults. Emotional reasoning has dominated by this point in time and the activity is repeated purely for the association with the pleasure one gets from receiving the reward. The risk is often times not even considered.

Those who actually do compute the risk and take precautions accordingly are few and far between. This is generally why most criminals are considered to be 'dumb' and often are caught in rather 'dumb' behavior for seemingly ridiculous 'rewards.' The reward does not at all compare to the risk, and yet they will act simply without consideration for the risk.



You're one of those people who pass the written test but fail the practical application section. Remediation is necessary.



I admire your persistence... but real intellectuals use a computer for such tasks.

:p
 

UchiGod Itachi

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I think you misunderstood. The point is that blacks are overrepresented in criminal statistics. They make up about 12% of the population but are responsible for 28% of the crimes. Whites make up 80% of population, but are responsible for only 69% of the crimes.

That's per capita but that doesn't change the fact does it?

That's because Caucasians make up more of the population. When Latinos are the predominate race they will most likely be at the top of that list. Of course there is no real difference in violence among races. Violence is inherent in our species and racial characteristics are such a minute part of our genetic code. If I had to guess based on previous research and meta studies I've read it's more likely due to social class than race. Even that may be suspect. Most violence is about dominance and power (whether physically or monetary) which is evolutionary and how our species climbed its way to the top of the heap.

A study I conducted years ago on how we perceive violence while listening to different genres of music may also indicate that we perceive violence to be more prevalent now than people did in the past, even if there is no actual statistic to prove that. This is how my study went: A control group was shown a series of images with no music. Some of these images were violent in nature, some were neutral. The pictures were were rated on a Likert scale. Different groups were then shown these same pictures while listening to death metal, gangster rap, and classical music. These groups rated the pictures as the control group did. I found that groups that listened to death metal and gangster rap perceived the neutral pictures the same as everyone else, but they viewed the violent images as statistically (>.05) more violent.

One of the possible conclusions I drew to that is that because of modern media's obsession with violence we perceive our world to be more violent than it is, especially when violence is pretty standard throughout history.

No exactly truth the population of Asians are almost that of Caucasian but crime for them isn't as high well one thing i like to add it's my opinion alot of war crimes for many countries haven't been added to statics which i believe should, China had allegations on japan of things that happen during world war II era they weren't convicted of. North Korea has Mistreated it's citizen that has been on crime statics , The long civil unrest in Ukraine hasn't either along with some in parts of Africa etc you get my point .In a global scale Hispanics aren't the leading population but do have the highest crime rate countries



1.Honduras
2.Venezuela
3.Belize
4.El Salvador
5.Guatemala

I don't believe race has a major part to do with it but Majority of economics along with guidance most crimes that happen usually are in low-income area a better system world wide should be built to fix this problem , If you go back in history many countries were forced into this system of currency which is unfair because others had a major head start & grasp on it while others didn't you know it effects all race like Caucasians population in russia is around 95% Per Capita 3x The murder rate of U.S

 

Babadook

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That's per capita but that doesn't change the fact does it?
Well yeah in absolute numbers whites commit the most crimes, but proportionately it's the blacks. Whatever conclusions one may draw out of this data, is up to the person...
 
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