[Theory] Understanding the Moonreader

BlinkST

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The Moonreader, or Tsukuyomi as most of us know it, is the best genjutsu of Itachi's Kaleidoscope Sharingan. One of the biggest points of contention concerning Sasuke's Kaleidoscope Sharingan, is whether or not he has this ability. In order to understand whether or not he has it, we first need to understand what the Tsukuyomi is. According to Itachi, and what's later written in the databook:
Amidst the insight and hypnosis possessed by Sharingan, is a supreme genjutsu, born from the aforementioned hypnosis: Tsukuyomi. Originally, people on the face of the Earth live bound by limitations like time, gravity, and space; and how people exert their abilities within those restrictions is what separates the victors from the vanquished. But in the mental world where the caster drags their opponent, the Tsukuyomi jutsu gives them control over those very limitations!
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The Tsukuyomi is a genjutsu where the user can manipulate the dreamscape to their liking. Initially, we knew Tsukuyomi as a weapon of Itachi, notorious for leaving his enemies trampled in battle.
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The only case where Sasuke seems as if Sasuke possessed this genjutsu, was when he used a Kaleidoscope Sharingan genjutsu to disable Bee's movements.
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These depictions would suggest that the Tsukuyomi seems to be weapon that attacks the mind of targets. However, we're later introduced to the Everlasting Moonreader, or Mugen Tsukuyomi. The Mugen Tsukuyomi is, according to Madara, a genjutsu that can be adjusted to his liking. His intention is to create world absent of any negativity.
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So again, what is the Tsukuyomi? In other to understand that Sasuke possesses the technique we must understand what the technique is. According to the descriptions given by Itachi and Madara, the technique simply conforms to what they desire. Itachi preferred torturing people, and Madara wants to create a blissful world. In both cases, they are acting as a godly figure.

Tsukuyomi is therefore, a genjutsu renowned for it's flexibility. One thing that puzzled me about the battle Sasuke had with Danzo, was that Kishimoto drew "Sasuke's genjutsu" in a similar style to Tsukuyomi.
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This didn't make any sense. Because when we think of Tsukuyomi, we think of Itachi's "I'll do horrible things to you until you can't take it anymore" Tsukuyomi. What in the world did Sasuke do? Until, I thought more about Madara's intentions, and then it hit me. If the Tsukuyomi is a genjutsu world under the total control of the user, where the target is at the whim of the user, then Sasuke was a little more sneaky than Itachi. He didn't simply cause Danzo to see an image of the Sharingan on his hand, because the Sharingan closed after they took off. No.

Instead of projecting a world of pain and suffering, Sasuke created a dreamscape resembling the physical world. And in that world, Danzo's Izanagi never ended; Sasuke took away the limit. He gave Danzo the assurance that he would win. And poor Danzo never knew what hit him.

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I overall believe the intention of this was to serve as a hint of what Madara planned, as well as to validate the descriptions of the genjutsu by Itachi and the databook.
 
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-Logic-

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Excellent thread. Unfortunately, Varrah and I don't accept the notion that Sasuke possesses Tsukuyomi.
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Merita

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It was a nice and interesting read. I have to give you a rep ;)
 

4bdN

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i read it and it is interesting


, isnt Izangi (what Saskai used on Danzo) a time perception thing ????

no i guess not , i reread the Danzo/Sakai fight i guess Izangi is what Danzo was using
 
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Forget Me Not

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Welcome to the Base. Nice thread.

Don't know my stance on the situation, but I also believe Sasuke has Tsukuyomi. I however am not definitely positive about this.

Perhaps time in the manga will tell.
 

BlinkST

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Unfortunately, Varrah and I don't accept the notion that Sasuke possesses Tsukuyomi.
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I would assume Varrah hasn't taken a proper look at the evidence.

torachan said:
…スサノオ…?
Sasuke: ...Susanoo...?

〝月読〟と〝天照〟…
…二つの能力を開眼した時にこの眼に宿ったもう一つの術だ
Itachi: It's the jutsu one obtains
after he's awakened both "Tsukuyomi" and "Amaterasu".

[ ]
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It's clear simply awakening the Kaleidoscope Sharingan in two eyes does not give a person Susanoo. If that was the case, Itachi would have never claimed Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu were essential to awaken it, as any person with a Kaleidoscope Sharingan would awaken it. He would have simply said something more generic, rather than something more specific to him. Obito would have never stated it was a rarity.


The Susanoo by itself is a ocular jutsu that symbolizes the highest possible mastery of the Kaleidscope Sharingan. To awaken the Susanoo is to essentially master the Kaleidoscope Sharingan beyond it's two eyes.
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Kishimoto established that Sasuke and Itachi have identical ocular powers. The thing that caused Danzo to recognize Sasuke as Itachi's brother was not even the Susanoo, which is a symbol of skill. It was the Amaterasu.
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Itachi himself was surprised that Sasuke could use Susanoo.
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Shinomori-aoshi said:
Itachi: ...no way
...so you can use this technique as well...

[ ]
aegon-rokudo said:
…incredible\\ to think you would become able to use this technique too…\\

[ ]

Why would he be surprised if all it took was awakening the powers of the two Kaleidoscope Sharingan? Because the powers needed to trigger Susanoo, aren't uniform among Sharingan users. Whether you believe he never had it prior to gaining his brother's eyes or doesn't have it at all, the evidence points to him having it regardless.
 

thegame

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Read it all. Seems you looked a lot into this. Perhaps we could have a good debate on 2 subjects regarding tsukuyomi.

1st
Did you consider that Itachis tsukuyomi has nothing to do with the one Obito wants to cast upon the world? Translations name it as Moon's eye plan or infinite tsukuyomi, but in fact tsukuyomi means moon. Some also translate it to infinite moon. So it's not even certain that the 2 are connected.

2nd
Sasuke did indeed perform a jutsu like tsukuyomi with his right eye. But is right also manipulates amaterasu, and forms what is known as blaze release. So does Sasuke have 2 MS techniques in his right eye? I asked myself this very question, but then I looked more into tsukuyomi.
If you looked in the databook, you might have notice something strange, at least when you see it the first time. Tsukuyomi is labelled as a ninjutsu. Odd right?
Anyway giving it some more thought it actually makes sense. Itachi uses a genjutsu, which enters a persons mind. This is basic, can be used without eye contact. But Itachi by forming eye contact at the same time, performs a ninjutsu, which he calls tsukuyomi. This ninjutsu affects the genjutsu, in a way which gives itachi the possibility to control everything. As you describe it, time, gravity and space. All this makes perfect sense. A ninjutsu within a genjutsu, simply brilliant!
But what is blaze release? Think about it before reading further.
Blaze release is the ability to control amaterasu. If you look at Sasukes fight vs Bee, you will see that Sasuke waited a lot before using amaterasu. He was afraid, because he had no idea, how he could control the flames. He had already learned to use tsukuyomi though. But when bee went beast mode, sasuke had no other option. He used amaterasu. And karin got it on her as well. So sasuke, full of emotions realizes that the tsukuyomi MS ability (the ninjutsu part as I described it), can be used to manipulate amaterasu. Thus he stops it, by controlling time of the flame. It burns for 7 days and nights, it matching perfectly with the 5 seconds or what it took him to put out the flames.
So my theory is that Sasuke and Itachis 2nd MS ability, is not tsukuyomi. Tsukuyomi is just what Itachi calls it, when he uses his 2nd MS ability to manipulate a genjutsu. The 2nd MS ability makes it possible for the user, to manipulate potentially any of his jutsus. However, the effects does not affect its surroundings, so speeding up amaterasu, doesn't destroy more. Also the thing about gravity is of grave importance here. Cause in no other way, could a person form and shape amaterasus flames, like sasuke do with blaze release, unless he can control gravity.

Well hope to hear your thoughts on it xd
 

thegame

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Excellent thread. Unfortunately, Varrah and I don't accept the notion that Sasuke possesses Tsukuyomi.
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You may want to read my above reply, and reconsider that.
 

BlinkST

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Read it all. Seems you looked a lot into this. Perhaps we could have a good debate on 2 subjects regarding tsukuyomi.

1st
Did you consider that Itachis tsukuyomi has nothing to do with the one Obito wants to cast upon the world? Translations name it as Moon's eye plan or infinite tsukuyomi, but in fact tsukuyomi means moon. Some also translate it to infinite moon. So it's not even certain that the 2 are connected.
Not quite.

ShounenSuki said:
Tsukuyomi (月読; Literally meaning "[She] who reads the Moon") is short for Tsukuyomi-no-Mikoto (月読命), the name of the Japanese goddess of the moon. She is the sister of Amaterasu-Ōmikami and Susanoo-no-Mikoto.

[ ]

Hence the connection with eyes and the physical moon.
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Japanese mythology 101.
 
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thegame

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Not quite.



Hence the connection with eyes and the physical moon.
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That is why I said it.
 

natzzz

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tuskyonomi is no normal genjitsu so if sasuke used tuskyonomi it should be written tuskyonomi not genjitsu.
theese manga pages hint that sasuke dosn't have tuskyonomi
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2big

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i dont think he has it becasue i belive the manga said itachi used one eye for amateratsu and one for tsukanome and sasuke uses both for amateratsu so i think he was just using genjutsu
 

BlinkST

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That is all very good, however, my reference is from the actual manga, where Kishi once wrote tsukuyomi = moon

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That is why I said it.
You're mistaken. Kishimoto doesn't translate his manga for you to read in English. "Tsukuyomi" in Japanese literally means what the aforementioned link says it means.
The name Tsukuyomi-no-Mikoto is a combination of the Japanese words for "moon; month" (tsuki) and "to read; to count" (yomu).

[ ]

tuskyonomi is no normal genjitsu so if sasuke used tuskyonomi it should be written tuskyonomi not genjitsu.
theese manga pages hint that sasuke dosn't have tuskyonomi
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Completely ignored the Op.
 
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