Uchiha vs. Hyuuga part 2

[chaos control]

There was already an Uchiha vs. Hyuuga thread. I wanted to rebut the thread maker's view point, but my argument was so long that I figured that I should just make a separate thread about it. I'll try to properly space my argument this time so that people will want to actually read it and respond to the content of the argument rather than how long it is. Now lets begin:

Here was the original thread maker's argument in a nut shell: Hyuugas would win because they are born with the byakugan (as opposed to having to awaken it like with sharingan), they could simply take an Uchiha's chakara away with gentle fist, and they can see through genjutsu, reflect amaterasu with rotation and break susanoo.


Here is my argument:

The hyuugas would have to know that the amaterasu is coming in order to reflect it, and amaterasu hits an opponent almost instantly on sight. Furthermore, I don't see how they'd break susanoo. Hyuugas can turn off chakara points, but the susanoo itself is chakara. Therefore a susanoo has no chakara points. The only known way to actually break susanoo is with brute force (which is the opposite of the definition of gentle fist). It is true that some of the hyuugas can see through genjutsu, but that depends on the genjutsu's strength. Lets take infinite tsukuyomi for instance. Obito wants to get every one into the genjutsu, and he knows about hyuugas. Do you really think that he wouldn't do anything about byakugan users if hyuugas could see through all genjutsus.

Furthermore, Hinata's sensei is a genjutsu user. Surely Kurenai has put Hinata under genjutsu before while training her. This would indicate that Hinata had to train her eyes to see through genjutsu. The byakugan doesn't start out with the ability to see through genjutsu. This means that not all hyuugas can see through genjutsu and that the byakugan can't see through all genjutsu.

I also just remembered that rotation is actually a secret main house jutsu. Neji was just able to teach it to himself because he was a genius, but most of the other branch house members probably don't know how to use it. The same goes for 8 trigrams 64 palms.

Also, you must still consider Kamui. Gentle fist revolves around touching the opponent. Therefore, no hyuuga would stand a chance against Obito (before or after becoming the shinju jinchuuriki). The long range Kamui could simply warp a hyuuga away. The hyuuga couldn't block that with rotation. You may be thinking that only one Uchiha (Obito) has Kamui, but he is just the only Uchiha that we have seen awaken Kamui. That doesn't mean that another Uchiha couldn't get Kamui. As far as we know, Uchihas get their mangekyou techniques randomly. Kishi has not really explained the why certain Uchihas get certain justsus and other Uchihas get other jutsus.

There could be mangekyou techniques that we don't even know about. For instance, we don't even know any techniques that Izuna had. We may be able to assume that he had suasanoo based on what we have seen from Madara, but we don't really know for sure. I won't even throw rinnegan on the table. All I am going to say is that the rinnegan is technically an Uchiha dojutsu (also a senju and uzumaki one). Anything that you work hard to awaken is legitimately yours. We saw what a rinnegan User did to Hinata. As far as the rinnegan goes, I am going to leave it at that.

Lets not forget pure fire style. Do you remember that chapter when the juubi unleashed tenpenchii? Well before that happened, Madara and Obito alone hit the alliance (hyuugas included) with multiple techniques that would have killed them if it hadn't been for Naruto's chakara. When they did this, they were only using pure fire style and mangekyou sharingan techniques.

Also, do you really think a hyuuga could just simply erase perfect susanoo. I doubt it. By the way, some of you may say that my argument from earlier about amaterasu being nearly instant is invalid because Ay dodged it and Gaara blocked it with his sand, but you have to remember that Ay has lightning speed and Gaara's sand is also pretty instant (and it reacts on its own). Rotation is not instant and it does not react on its own. Hyuugas are also not known to have lightning speed like Ay. As I said before, the hyuuga would have to see the amaterasu coming to know to even start the rotation. Also, rotation doesn't last forever. Therefore if an Uchiha blew a Madara level fire style at a hyuuga, because of the enormity of the fire style, the hyuuga wouldn't be able to keep blocking it forever if the Uchiha kept blowing. At best, it would just be a contest to see whose chakara lasted the longest. Since Uchihas were known for their powerful chakara and since they are more directly related to Hagoromo Ootsutsuki than the Hyuuga are, the Uchihas' chakara would probably last the longest.

You can't forget about the bijuus. Higher levels of the sharingan, as well as rinnegan, let the user summon and control tailed beasts. What would a hyuuga do about someone like Kurama? Next, the 3 tomoe sharingan drastically increases an Uchiha's perception of movements, so there is no guarantee that a Hyuuga could even hit an Uchiha. Lets not forget that with 3 tomoe alone, Sasuke was able to read version 1 Naruto's and version 1 Bee's moves. With EMS, Sasuke was able to read 10 tails jinchuuriki Obito's moves (who is even faster than bijuu mode Naruto).

Finally, we can't forget about ninjutsus that have been copied with the sharingan or original ninjutsus from that Uchiha.

In conclusion, it is possible (but not guaranteed) that a Hyuuga could beat a 3 tomoe Uchiha, but they can't beat MS or higher. I know that you made the point that there are not a lot of MS users, but you must remember the following facts: 1. Two MS users (Itachi and Obito) alone wiped out the entire Uchiha clan. 2. Two MS users alone (Madara and Obito) dealt what would have been lethal blows to an entire army (that included hyuugas) if it had not been for Naruto's chakara. 3. One MS user (Madara) wiped out the entire 4th division (which may or may not have had hyuugas in it). 4. One MS user (Obito) killed a whole platoon of anbu Kiri ninjas. (I know that platoon had no Hyuugas in it, but it just puts extra emphasis on my point). The bottom line is: When it comes to MS users, the quantity of them is almost completely irrelevant.

It is for these reasons that I must say that Uchiha> Hyuuga.

Please feel free to comment and rebut. I like to debate, so you don't have to worry about me being one of those people who gets mad or hostile towards anyone who tries to disprove him. Here is a link to the original thread:

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[0jordinio0]

I doubt Kaiten could reflect Amaterasu anyway, it would quite possibly just cling to the surface of chakra.

 

[FreakensteinAG]

Pitting a fight between the Uchiha and Hyuga clans is somewhat tricky, as any member of the top 5 Uchiha are stronger than 99.99% of all their clanmates put together. The average Uchiha doesn't possess that which gives the clan fame. Meanwhile, the Hyuga are born with their famous dojutsu and are trained to cripple all shinobi within melee range (the main family a little extra). So while most Hyuga would take out most Uchiha, the top 5 Uchiha would do most of the slaying.

 

[closecombat22]

Pitting a fight between the Uchiha and Hyuga clans is somewhat tricky, as any member of the top 5 Uchiha are stronger than 99.99% of all their clanmates put together. The average Uchiha doesn't possess that which gives the clan fame. Meanwhile, the Hyuga are born with their famous dojutsu and are trained to cripple all shinobi within melee range (the main family a little extra). So while most Hyuga would take out most Uchiha, the top 5 Uchiha would do most of the slaying.

O my god he is the only one who get it

 

[KGB Kakuzu]

1. Amaterasu Detection

Amaterasu builds up pressure in the eye before being released. With a less insightful eye (key word- insightful), Nagato could sense this pressure. With the Byakugan, the build of chakra can be far more precisely seen: meaning it can observe the chakra moving to the eye before the pressure even builds. Thus, it can be pre-determined.

2. Susanoo

First one has to assume the Uchiha GETS Susanoo... and even then it depends on the stage. As for countering it.... Chakra points may not exist on the Susanoo; however, it has been noted that Jyuuken can be used to DESTROY chakra (Neji vs Kidomaru). Susanoo is made of chakra, and thus in theory can be destroyed by Jyuuken techniques (though we've seen it being hit by regular attacks and hurt...so this is logical). The factoring technique would be Air Palm, which acts as ranged Jyuuken, and has been scaled at levels to push away a Juubi Tail... A Susanoo is smaller in comparison.

Obviously perfect Susanoo is a class above, but how many people really have it... One maybe two. Not to mention how many get Susanoo...

3. Genjutsu

Firstly, your Hinata-Kurenai argument is pure speculation. As such it holds no stable ground. Secondly, Hyuga are susceptible to genjutsu if they make direct eye contact with something like an Ocular Genjutsu. However, avoiding direct eye contact, the Byakugan can see the flow of chakra... And disturb it.

As for what would Obito due, simple, firstly many would probably be caught looking. Since the Jutsu seemingly is global, it means that visible light cast from the Moon acts ad the ocular mechanism. For any who happened to have eyes closed.... Kill them. With a world to manipulate for that purpose it is rather easy.

4. Madara's fire

Simply put... Madara's fire... It can't stand for every Uchiha. I could just as easily say what if a Hyuga exists who can constantly spin.

5. Bijuu

Again... Madara alone has used them (unless you count Mizukage puppeteering...but even then Isobu seemed to exist outside of a host). Since village establishment, no clan would really have possession of one. Pre-Village we never even had one. Also once again, chained air palms or even main branch solo wall palms could counter the Juubi's tail... And the Bijuu were miniscule compared to the Juubi.

6. Outside technique- Kamui, etc.

Who's not to equally say what other moves do the Hyuga wield?! It's not a strong element since we don't know what other secret abilities the Hyuga could have.

Also, we've seen the Uchiha have random abilities so even amongst your arguments its hard to match up how the fight goes.

7. Dojutsu perception

As you mentioned, the 3-Tomoe introduces perception reading. However, the Byakugan also has intense display of moving objects. Hinata could simultaneously dodge spikes, analyze out off all the spikes which one would hit Naruto, and block it while dodging other falling spikes... Pretty good. Neji also seemingly had a fair enough tracking of Lee during the initial gates...though the ability to follow is unknown.

Even if the Uchiha can predict the movements... A Hyuga can simply wait and counter attack an Uchiha offense (Taijutsu wise). While the Uchiha could deflect a direct attack... Be cannot see tenketsu, and with time the Hyuga would plug up chakra nodes.


8. Massacre

Remember that massacre occurred st night when many would sleep. Some like Sasuke's parents didn't even fight back.





Assuming equal talent in every subject (speed, intelligence, etc)... Most likely a Hyuga would stand above an Uchiha until the MS PENDING ability (due to something like KA being negated by the Byakugan: can fight w/o direct eye contact).


As an overall clan, the Hyuga during the village time would be stronger. Possibly the Uchiha during clan wars as more MS would exist (enough to have specifically made Izanami).

 

[closecombat22]

Can't. Hyuga just cloak them selves in chakra to fireball and it take min for amaterasu to burn chakra

 

[-Spoiler-]

if the statement your trying to make is that the is all uchiha will possess ms to fight the hyuga, then thats not going to turn out good since the uchiha will basically be fight each other for the ms power U_U hyugas can simply wait and fight the few that remains

 

[chaos control]

1. Amaterasu Detection

Amaterasu builds up pressure in the eye before being released. With a less insightful eye (key word- insightful), Nagato could sense this pressure. With the Byakugan, the build of chakra can be far more precisely seen: meaning it can observe the chakra moving to the eye before the pressure even builds. Thus, it can be pre-determined.

2. Susanoo

First one has to assume the Uchiha GETS Susanoo... and even then it depends on the stage. As for countering it.... Chakra points may not exist on the Susanoo; however, it has been noted that Jyuuken can be used to DESTROY chakra (Neji vs Kidomaru). Susanoo is made of chakra, and thus in theory can be destroyed by Jyuuken techniques (though we've seen it being hit by regular attacks and hurt...so this is logical). The factoring technique would be Air Palm, which acts as ranged Jyuuken, and has been scaled at levels to push away a Juubi Tail... A Susanoo is smaller in comparison.

Obviously perfect Susanoo is a class above, but how many people really have it... One maybe two. Not to mention how many get Susanoo...

3. Genjutsu

Firstly, your Hinata-Kurenai argument is pure speculation. As such it holds no stable ground. Secondly, Hyuga are susceptible to genjutsu if they make direct eye contact with something like an Ocular Genjutsu. However, avoiding direct eye contact, the Byakugan can see the flow of chakra... And disturb it.

As for what would Obito due, simple, firstly many would probably be caught looking. Since the Jutsu seemingly is global, it means that visible light cast from the Moon acts ad the ocular mechanism. For any who happened to have eyes closed.... Kill them. With a world to manipulate for that purpose it is rather easy.

4. Madara's fire

Simply put... Madara's fire... It can't stand for every Uchiha. I could just as easily say what if a Hyuga exists who can constantly spin.

5. Bijuu

Again... Madara alone has used them (unless you count Mizukage puppeteering...but even then Isobu seemed to exist outside of a host). Since village establishment, no clan would really have possession of one. Pre-Village we never even had one. Also once again, chained air palms or even main branch solo wall palms could counter the Juubi's tail... And the Bijuu were miniscule compared to the Juubi.

6. Outside technique- Kamui, etc.

Who's not to equally say what other moves do the Hyuga wield?! It's not a strong element since we don't know what other secret abilities the Hyuga could have.

Also, we've seen the Uchiha have random abilities so even amongst your arguments its hard to match up how the fight goes.

7. Dojutsu perception

As you mentioned, the 3-Tomoe introduces perception reading. However, the Byakugan also has intense display of moving objects. Hinata could simultaneously dodge spikes, analyze out off all the spikes which one would hit Naruto, and block it while dodging other falling spikes... Pretty good. Neji also seemingly had a fair enough tracking of Lee during the initial gates...though the ability to follow is unknown.

Even if the Uchiha can predict the movements... A Hyuga can simply wait and counter attack an Uchiha offense (Taijutsu wise). While the Uchiha could deflect a direct attack... Be cannot see tenketsu, and with time the Hyuga would plug up chakra nodes.


8. Massacre

Remember that massacre occurred st night when many would sleep. Some like Sasuke's parents didn't even fight back.





Assuming equal talent in every subject (speed, intelligence, etc)... Most likely a Hyuga would stand above an Uchiha until the MS PENDING ability (due to something like KA being negated by the Byakugan: can fight w/o direct eye contact).


As an overall clan, the Hyuga during the village time would be stronger. Possibly the Uchiha during clan wars as more MS would exist (enough to have specifically made Izanami).

Very good points sir or madam. However, I noticed that you brought air palm to the table. It is true that air palm was able to deflect a juubi tail, but you must not forget that the air palm was enhanced by Naruto's chakara. Furthermore, it is also true that they could see the chakara build up in an Uchiha's eye. However, this does not mean that they could dodge or get the rotation off fast enough.

It's like the end of the fight between Naruto and Neji. Neji clearly saw a nine tails chakara covered Naruto running straight at him, but he wasn't able to get the rotation off fast enough to fully protect himself. Amaterasu is even faster than Naruto was then. Additionally, even if the hyuuga saw the chakara build up, they wouldn't necessarily know it to be amaterasu. It could be some kind of healing jutsu for all the hyuuga knows. Therefore it could actually be more dangerous for the hyuuga to just start rotation just because they saw chakara build up in the eye. This is because, if the jutsu in the eye turns out to be the long range kamui or some jutsu that lets the Uchiha telekinetically move anything that he looks at, then someone who is just spinning in place would be done for.

Going back to the whole bijuu argument, it is one thing to stop a tail, but a bijuudama or a chakara roar is more of a force to be reckoned with.

As for your genjutsu argument, you seem to assume that the byakugan can see through all genjutsu and that they'd have to make eye contact with the Uchiha. Remember that Itachi could cast genjutsus with a mere finger. Danzo controlled Mifune via Kotoamatsukami without making direct eye contact. You should also remember that different genjutsus have different levels of power. Kurenai's genjutsus for instance could be broken with a simple "release". Meanwhile not even Sasuke's 3 tomoe sharingan (which is also known to be able to see through genjutsu) was able to see through Itachi's tsukuyomi. It took the combined effort of sharingan and the curse mark.

Furthermore, some genjutsus (especially sharingan genjutsus) tend to paralyze you and/or knock you out. If you are paralyzed and knocked out, then you can't break the genjutsu yourself.

As for susanoo, the susanoo would obviously have a larger wing span than a human. It would also have blades and multiple arms. Therefore it would be easier for susanoo to hit a Hyuuga than it would be for the hyuuga to hit the susanoo with gentle fist. The susanoo could also throw yasaka magatama, which can be very fast. It could also be covered in enton. It would not be beneficial to touch enton for obvious reasons.

Speaking of enton, what if the Uchiha covered the battlefield with enton? The hyuuga would have to do a lot of rotating. Also, even normal susanoos are huge when compared to humans. So even if a Hyuuga did manage to hit the susanoo with gentle fist, it would only destroy a small part of the susanoo (and that small part would just regenerate). You may be thinking that the small opening would allow the Hyuuga to attack the Uchiha, but you must remember that the Uchiha can float in the head of susanoo.

Of course you can't forget about rinnegan. I know that seems cheap, but it technically is an Uchiha power up that an Uchiha can work hard for.

Finally, as I said before, when it comes to MS the quantity of Uchihas that have it is almost completely irrelevant. Even if you disregard the massacre, there is still the fact that Madara and Obito basically owned the shinobi alliance, which included hyuugas (without using juubi). The alliance would have been dead had it not been for Naruto's chakara. Furthermore, in this debate I am looking at the full potential that both clans have shown thus far (not just the mediocres). Therefore, bijuus, rinnegan, EMS, etc... do count. I will admit however, that we have not actually seen a lot of the Hyuuga. Therefore it is possible that they could have more power than they show.