Alright I have some spare time and I'll play with you...
Knowledge is power!!!
I believe that people dont understand why hiruzen is the strongest hokage and im thinking about making a thread. Basically this is why hiruzen is the strongest hokage. He was trained by both the 1st and second hokage who were leaders of the senju and that clan was said to be a clan with a 1000 skill (or some shit like that). If you notice hashirama had loads of scroll, scrolls that if you are elected hokage you are entitled to and i believe one of those scrolls is what naruto stole at the beginning of the series
All of this is pretty much irrelevant,it's hype,and doesn't translate into in battle feat
Namely you can have knowledge of something but don't have the means to counter that said jutsu.Kakashi has knowledge on Itachi's
Tsukuyomi,but that knoweldge helps him not to counter the
genjutsu,because he simply doesn't have the traits and apporpriate counters,unlike Sasuke who can
Same thing for Hiruzen,he can have the knowlegle on paper,but of he hasn't shown a counter to a jutsu on paper we can't grant him the possibility of doing so,as it would be unfair for the rest of the cast.
Good thing he knows about Shodai's arsenal,but then when faced with an Amazon forest,likle the one I posted in my previous post,what good is the knowledge if you can't do shit to it?
Nothing,Hiruzen can just wait and die
Knowledge doesn't matter in the face of overwhelming power,as Nagato put it
So no,knowledge helps you as far as you have the means to counter something,as if having knowledge on a biju dama can help you survive one if you don't have a counter
And lol,if you think
Enma is going to counter an entire forest with no restrictions as the one Madara pulled on the 5 Kage
Now Hiruzen being a part of the sarutobi clan who were said to have natural talent in learning ninjutsu fast, its reasonable to say due to his old age, plus this natural ability he has mastered all the scrolls/ninjutsu's that existed in konoha. He has done something that not even his 2 former masters did in their life time. Further more if you look at the db he is the only person, yes only person to get a 5/5 for all 3 forms of ninja art and this speaks volumes. No wonder he was called the professor
Cool s*it but how does ot help him in battle?
Kakashi also is said to have copied 1000 jutsu,but have we seen all of them?
No because he uses the one at which he is more experienced and efficient,so same thing for Hiruzen,knowing thousand of sh*t jutsu won't help him survive against an auto regenrating monster like Hashirama
Also when Kakashi faced Tendo,did his 1000 jutsu magically help him survive?
The answer is no,so I reiterate the point I made previously,paepr knowledge means jack squat in the face of overhwlming power
Like knowledge can help you survive a colossal
Shinra Tensei,a
Korin Kajukai,the mountain busting slash from Madara's
Susano'o,Naruto's biju dama
Yeah good luck Hiruzen living trough one of those
To face uber haxx,you need other uber haxx,skills and knowlege alone won't cut it anymore
Now because he was the student of the 2 hokages he knows their techniques very well, so much so that if he was to fight them he would be able to counter and we saw this. The weakness of the Kokuangyo no Jutsu is that apart from the eye sight being taken away from you, all your othe senses are there and because hiruzen being the student of the 1st knew of this technique and its weakness he used his nose (sense of smell) to track hashirama;
I can give you that he had knowledge on the
Kokuangyo ,but that is the only thing he displayed a counter to and therefore it's the only to consider as countered by Hiruzen,the other techniques which he didn't counter can't be considered too
Also Hashirama's performance when edo wasn't the right depiction of his true powers,as you can tell by the scale of his techniques,and his mind state(which matters boat load in a fight)
Let's also consider the performance of other edo tensei,we can clearly tell that most of them were trolled beyond believe like Sasori(who got defeated like a novice),Deidara,not to mention Hanzo(the freaking guy who gave the sannin their nickname),and so on
Another testament to that is the fact that he didn't even use his trademark
Mokuton Bunshin no Jutsu(which Madara said he was th eonly one able to spot the true one among them),and his Korin Kajukai as already posted above
So it's crystal cleat Hashirama didn't display his full might
Secondly Enma is a good counter for mokuton and we have seen this. Hashirama used the same technique as edo madara when he first used the mokuton. The technique was Mokuton Hijutsu: Jukai Kotan. Enma not only made mokuton look like a twig it also protect hiruzen;
Lol at Enma being relvant against this
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Keeping in mind the 1st scan,do you see how little are the kage compared to the tree branches?
Yeah,think of Enma and Hiruzen in that position,what could they do besides wait and die?
And that was madara's doing,who's a novice in the mokuton field,then apply those feats the freaking master Hashirama and you have a dead Hiruzen
and lol again if you think Enma can counter that
Tobirama being a master of suiton jutsu. Hiruzen knew this and was able to counter his Suiton suiryudan, with doton doryuuheki;
Cool shit,but many other have relicated the same stuff,Mei comes to mind who countered Madara's colossal Messhitsu with her suiton,also Kakashi countered Kakuzu's colossal wind+fire jutsu
So yeah what the 3d did isn't something to be overly joyous about
The reason why Hiruzen is the strongest hokage is NOT solely based on raw power but knowledge on his counterparts to defeat them in a fight. Its his knowledge on his teachers abilities that will allow him to defeat them in a fight thats why he is strongest amongst them. Note the word amongst them because i believe people dont understand this
Already amply addressed this
If we were to give hashirama and hiruzen 10 top shinobi's to fight in a 1 vs 1 situation, i believe hashirama would win majority of his fights and i cannot say the same for hiruzen. So whilst hiruzen is the strongest hokage due to his knowledge on his former teachers, if we were to take this a step further and place them both outside the criteria of hokage hashirama is stronger, but if were to revert this and place them in the criteria of hokage hiruzen is stronger
I win,thank you
You said it yourself,if we remove Hiruzen's advantages as knowledge,he loses
Basically to compare 2 combatants fairly,from scratch aka tabula rasa,we remove all the reciprocal advantages and let them fight it out to death
And you also admitted it so yeah,pretty much the case is closed
It would be unfair for a shinobi who died early to face a shinobi who came after him,to grant the other younger one knowledge
For it to be a 100% clean match there has to be 0 advantage on both sides
And also as I already mentioned the 3rd's knowledge woon't help him in the face of overwhelming power
Hashirama is stronger but for reasons stated above hiruzen would most likely beat him majority of the times. Its not raw power that makes hiruzen stronger than hashirama
yeah cool story brah
ask Konohagakure when Nagato sent in the pain train,or when the fox was sodomizing the village
You can't win fights with sole knowledge,you gotta have the proper means
Namely counter hax,or else you die
What helped Naruto stop Madara's forest,wasn't some sort of intangible attribute like knowoledge but actually his counter fire power rasengan,which were very much a tangible force
PS:All in all,there wasn't even much substance,it was just you paraphrasing scans,which were very much clear in the 1st place
You didn't touch on how Hiruzen counters the colossal map rewriting jutsu of Hashirama(lol actually you did,but lol Enma was the only thing you mentioned) and the knowledge you kept repeating ad nauseam didn't touch on tangible counter but it was just you mentioning it as if it's some sort of tangible power
As a matter you couldn't come up with tangible counters,because simply put
Hiruzen lacks them,and it was pretty much clear right from the start
But people gotta front so yeah
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