-Tsunade's Speed-

[RedRobin]

What makes you think Tsunade is faster than Shizune?



I don't think you understand the point. That, or you are being intentionally dense.

The two were in a non-combat environment, right next to a patient. Despite her words, Shizune has no reason to expect Tsunade to fight her in a hospital. Shizune is standing two feet away from Tsunade as well, so being within striking distance further diminishes one's ability to react. So to sum things up (since you seem to be having trouble understanding):

(1) Shizune wasn't expecting to be attacked in a non-combat environment by her comrade.
(2) Shizune was already within striking distance - literally arm's length away; fights never start at arm's length away in a 4 x 4 room

Manga contradicts the DB all the time.

Spoiler

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Spoiler

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Kabuto caught Shizune who is supposed to be faster yet Tsunade reacted to the attack and wasnt caught.

Manga >> DB

 

[Black Wolf]

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. He does not have the benefit of a gas cloud hiding his position. She knows to expect an attack from under her.

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which hides Kabuto's position. She does not know he Doton'd, thus does not know he will attack from beneath her.

Yet another example of you completely ignoring context.

 

[Gein]

Shes not slow, but shes not fast

 

[Varrah]

The Susano'o ordeal can be explained away by the fact that nobody actually had Susano'o at the time except for Itachi, and thus the entry was written with him, and only him in mind. You'll see the same issue with Kamui and how the entry implies that any Mangekyo user could awaken the technique with enough training. Both of those issues are attributable to the lack of knowledge the reader had at the time (and Kishimoto obviously wrote it with the reader's knowledge in mind, which is why we don't see the masked man getting listed as a Kamui user in the 3rd DB even though we have already seen the jutsu).

Furthermore, hyperbolic statements (not saying Susano'o / Kamui had hyperbolic entries) can easily be weeded out. Numbers are far more objective than something like "Odama Rasengan can swallow the sky," and trying to write-off stats because they are in the same DB that listed that is simply ignorance on the interpreter's part and inability to weed out hyperbole from fact.

…Aaaaand this is what I was attempting to persuade people to accept—you would have been a great help in those days.

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[Prince Charles]

lmao black wolf destroyed this thread along with this trash PawsX

just stop bro please.

 

[RedRobin]

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. He does not have the benefit of a gas cloud hiding his position. She knows to expect an attack from under her.

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which hides Kabuto's position. She does not know he Doton'd, thus does not know he will attack from beneath her.

Yet another example of you completely ignoring context.

Which is why she is clearly surprised in that last panel because she sees the hole and still cant react.

lmao black wolf destroyed this thread along with this trash PawsX

just stop bro please.

lol alright bro. You think DB > Manga. PC lost his touch.

#shotsfired

 

[Black Wolf]

The lead time in Tsunade's situation versus Shizune's is not at all comparable. Kabuto went underground right in front of Tsunade. She saw him go underground, and had several seconds leading up to the attack to brace herself for the attack and react. She was very much expecting an underground attack.

Shizune used a gas cloud that hinders her own vision, and even if she caught a glimpse of the hole (and I don't see her acknowledging that Kabuto had went underground), she had nowhere near as much time as Tsunade to react to the attack. At best, she had a split second, and as I said, I don't see her acknowledging Kabuto going underground anywhere.

She was surprised in the last panel because Kabuto had already grabbed her legs (shown on the very next page).

 

[RicardoA]

Sorry I misread that, I was on my phone. But I am chillax, I was just countering your post. And you cant go by DB stats, you should use feats which show she is much faster than the average.

Np. I adore lady Tsunade as well so i understand why you're so passionate :bouncy:

There's absolutely no problem with the databook stats, we just can't look at them as fixed numbers and mathematically determining factors. Interpretation is the key.
If you go through all the stats you'll notice most kage level ninja have 4 or more for speed (even some jonin level characters score higher than her). Does this mean she (or any other slower character) turns into a sitting duck when faced against a faster opponents? No. It means she would lose a race, that's all.
This goes to explain why speed doesn't play a major role between two opponents of a similar level.
Feats place her in the same spot as well. She's able to hit her opponents like any other character but her fighting style never relied on speed nor does she stand out as a blitzer (which is what matters when we're talking about speed).

Its what keeps her balanced if you ask me. She's able to break Susanoo(s), evade or tank most attacks if she wants to, summon a giant slug and have her attack or keep an army going... giving her speed would make her broken when there're already so many strenghts in her arsenal.

 

[RedRobin]

The lead time in Tsunade's situation versus Shizune's is not at all comparable. Kabuto went underground right in front of Tsunade. She saw him go underground, and had several seconds leading up to the attack to brace herself for the attack and react. Shizune used a gas cloud that hinders her own vision, and even if she caught a glimpse of the hole (and I don't see her looking at the hole), she had nowhere near as much time as Tsunade to react to the attack.

lol you dont get it bro. Shizune has a whole .5 ahead of Tsunade so Tsunade was able to dodge. That .5 should have made up for that time right there. But it didnt.

 

[Black Wolf]

lol you dont get it bro. Shizune has a whole .5 ahead of Tsunade so Tsunade was able to dodge. That .5 should have made up for that time right there. But it didnt.

So if I shoot Usain Bolt in the kneecap and then beat him in a race, it means I am faster than him. Who cares about his popped kneecap, right? He is supposed to be the fastest man on Earth, and should have no problem outrunning me, who by all means and purposes, would barely qualify for the Olympics.

That's exactly what you're doing here. Let's ignore the fact that Kabuto went underground right in front of Tsunade's face and gave her a good few seconds to react (not to mention she knew to expect an attack from beneath her) and regurgitate that she out-reacted Shizune while ignoring the fact that Shizune's eyesight was obstructed and didn't have a several second lead-time to brace herself for Kabuto's attack like Tsunade did.

Yes, let's ignore context and regurgitate the same lines that "manga > DB". Manga tells us 1-tomoe Part I Sasuke beat Zabuza, so that must be true too by your standards right? Cause we're all for ignoring context and all.

 

[RedRobin]

So if I shoot Usain Bolt in the kneecap and then beat him in a race, it means I am faster than him. Who cares about his popped kneecap, right? He is supposed to be the fastest man on Earth, and should have no problem outrunning me, who by all means and purposes, would barely qualify for the Olympics.

That's exactly what you're doing here. Let's ignore the fact that Kabuto went underground right in front of Tsunade's face and gave her a good few seconds to react (not to mention she knew to expect an attack from beneath her) and regurgitate that she out-reacted Shizune while ignoring the fact that Shizune's eyesight was obstructed and didn't have a several second lead-time to brace herself for Kabuto's attack like Tsunade did.

Yes, let's ignore context and regurgitate the same lines that "manga > DB". Manga tells us 1-tomoe Part I Sasuke beat Zabuza, so that must be true too by your standards right? Cause we're all for ignoring context and all.

lol you are the one looking at numbers to justify your arguments when those numbers dont mean anything and have been contradicted over and over again in the manga. The manga, the main source.

lol wut...

 

[Varrah]

lol you dont get it bro. Shizune has a whole .5 ahead of Tsunade so Tsunade was able to dodge. That .5 should have made up for that time right there. But it didnt.

—Those examples are not contextualized, Paw. Shizune

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a smoke-cloud which Kabuto used to to his advantage or to hide, Tsunade

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Kabuto doton; therefore, because Shizune does not where Kabuto sprung from, she cannot act appropriately; Tsunade does and thus can react to Kabuto more appropriately.​

It’s the semantics of the scenario; an incremented point would not have augmented Shizune’s responses.​

 

[RedRobin]

—Those examples are not contextualized, Paw. Shizune

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a smoke-cloud which hide Kabuto’s position, Tsunade

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Kabuto doton; therefore, whereas Shizune does not where sprung from, Tsunade does, and thus can react to Kabuto more appropriately.​

It’s the semantics of the scenario; an incremented point would not have augmented Shizune’s responses.​

Look at the second to last panel. The floor has already been cleared of poison so she should be able to see the hole. She has less time than Tsunade to react but that .5 should make up for that. But it clearly doesnt.

 

[Black Wolf]

lol you are the one looking at numbers to justify your arguments when those numbers dont mean anything and have been contradicted over and over again in the manga. The manga, the main source.

You have yet to show me an instance where the DB stats are contradicted. Showing me "rigged" scenarios where someone starts at a disadvantage (ala Shizune) isn't a contradiction; its a specific scenario where that individual is at a disadvantage.

The only time that DB stats have been "contradicted" is in two scenarios:

(1) The "roof-tier" conundrum I have explained to you already. Having a 5 indicates mastery. Two people can have a 5 with varying skills in said area simply because there is no higher number to give them. Tsunade's strength may be 10,000 while Kisame's is only 1,000, but both have 5's because you only need 900 to have "mastery" and thus a 5 in strength.

In other words, stats aren't written relative to other character's stats, which is why gaps can exist when two characters have a 5 in a stat. It's also why not every single character doesn't have a 0 in strength; if stats were written relatively, nobody would have above a 0 in strength simply because Tsunade's strength (relatively) is far above theirs.

(2) The character simply outgrew their stats. This is most prevalent in Naruto and Sasuke, possibly Sakura and Kakashi as well. These are main characters, and all, especially Naruto and Sasuke, have had astronomical growth since the DB3 as well as numerous powerups / fights to improve throughout.

lol wut...

Mei's body guard

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. If we ignore context, like the fact he wasn't there to see the battle and was just generalizing, then we'd run off with the thought that Part I Sasuke beat Zabuza.

Of course, those with the ability to interpret context will easily realize he was generalizing the incident and that that was not what actually happened.

 

[Varrah]

Look at the second to last panel. The floor has already been cleared of poison so she should be able to see the hole. She has less time than Tsunade to react but that .5 should make up for that. But it clearly doesnt.

The doton, and its maneuvering were already in place, this is indicated by the special effect on the last panel of the page.


Again, it’s the semantics of the scenario; an incremented point would not have augmented Shizune’s responses.​

 

[RedRobin]

You have yet to show me an instance where the DB stats are contradicted. Showing me "rigged" scenarios where someone starts at a disadvantage (ala Shizune) isn't a contradiction; its a specific scenario where that individual is at a disadvantage.

The only time that DB stats have been "contradicted" is in two scenarios:

(1) The "roof-tier" conundrum I have explained to you already. Having a 5 indicates mastery. Two people can have a 5 with varying skills in said area simply because there is no higher number to give them. Tsunade's strength may be 10,000 while Kisame's is only 1,000, but both have 5's because you only need 900 to have "mastery" and thus a 5 in strength.

In other words, stats aren't written relative to other character's stats, which is why gaps can exist when two characters have a 5 in a stat. It's also why not every single character doesn't have a 0 in strength; if stats were written relatively, nobody would have above a 0 in strength simply because Tsunade's strength (relatively) is far above theirs.

(2) The character simply outgrew their stats. This is most prevalent in Naruto and Sasuke, possibly Sakura and Kakashi as well. These are main characters, and all, especially Naruto and Sasuke, have had astronomical growth since the DB3 as well as numerous powerups / fights to improve throughout.



Mei's body guard

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. If we ignore context, like the fact he wasn't there to see the battle and was just generalizing, then we'd run off with the thought that Part I Sasuke beat Zabuza.

Of course, those with the ability to interpret context will easily realize he was generalizing the incident and that that was not what actually happened.

Orochimaru and Hebi Sasuke have the same stamina at 3.5. But Orochimaru has showed much more stamina than Sasuke, he used like 2 oral rebirth in his fight against 4 tails and still wasnt tired while Sauske used it once and was completely drained.

Itachi has a whole point less than Sasuke yet had the stamina to fight all the way through.

 

[Black Wolf]

Orochimaru and Hebi Sasuke have the same stamina at 3.5. But Orochimaru has showed much more stamina than Sasuke, he used like 2 oral rebirth in his fight against 4 tails and still wasnt tired while Sauske used it once and was completely drained.

Again, ignoring context.

Sasuke had an extensive Genjutsu battle, used CS2, used numerous Chidori variants, snake arms, and about half a dozen Katons in that battle. Oral Rebirth was one of the many moves he used.

Itachi has a whole point less than Sasuke yet had the stamina to fight all the way through.

Again, ignoring context.

Because Sasuke had to use more jutsu to compromise for the gap between him and Itachi. Lasting longer = / = more stamina. Itachi could beat / outlast Tsunade in a fight too. That doesn't mean he has more stamina.

You also neglect chakra control. A person can do more with less chakra if they have good enough chakra control, a concept that

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to Naruto (Sakura had better chakra control than him and Sasuke in Part I).

 

[RedRobin]

Again, ignoring context.

Sasuke had an extensive Genjutsu battle, used CS2, used numerous Chidori variants, snake arms, and about half a dozen Katons in that battle. Oral Rebirth was one of the many moves he used.



Again, ignoring context.

Because Sasuke had to use more jutsu to compromise for the gap between him and Itachi. Lasting longer = / = more stamina. Itachi could beat / outlast Tsunade in a fight too. That doesn't mean he has more stamina.

You also neglect chakra control. A person can do more with less chakra if they have good enough chakra control, a concept that Kakashi explained to Naruto (Sakura had better chakra control than him and Sasuke in Part I).

You do realize the CS2 gives you more chakra and doesnt use more. Sasuke used 2 katons.

Sounds like you are making more excuses to prove your DB numbers.

Sasuke had no chakra left yet Itachi still had more. Yet DB should say otherwise.

 

[Black Wolf]

You do realize the CS2 gives you more chakra and doesnt use more.

No,

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at the expense of powering his physical stats (durability, strength) and ninjutsu.

Sasuke used 2 katons.

No, it seems you are speaking without knowledge on the topic or simply cannot count.

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Sounds like you are making more excuses to prove your DB numbers.

You are proving your ignorance on the manga with every post you make, as displayed above.

Sasuke had no chakra left yet Itachi still had more. Yet DB should say otherwise.

Sasuke had to use more tasking jutsu to keep up with Itachi. Sasuke was a low mileage car while Itachi was a high mileage car. Having more "gas in the tank" (chakra) does not dictate how fast you burn through your chakra. and as I said earlier, it's very likely Itachi has better chakra control.

 

[RedRobin]

No,

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at the expense of powering his physical stats (durability, strength) and ninjutsu.



No, it seems you are speaking without knowledge on the topic or simply cannot count.

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You are proving your ignorance on the manga with every post you make, as displayed above.

NO its gives you chakra. That was the first time Sasuke used the CS2. All throughout part 2 he can even partially transform, which shows his skill in it .(

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)

I forgot about the fire balls, which you should count as a technique together, so its only 3. (

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Less tasking my butt, Amaterasu, Tsukiyomi, Totsuka sword sealing, Yata mirror and holding up the susano.