Tsunade vs. Itachi. How she could win given certain scenario (+Tsunade Analysis)
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Holy crap O.O. Good job on the analysis and I for one liked it a lot. But like many have stated the Susanoo is the real issue here without that she has the great chance of beating Itachi. Heck if Itachi had a normal susanoo she would still have high chances of beating him.
Thing is .. Itachis Susanoo has the Sword of Tetsuka thats the main factor here. Yata Mirror does nothing as its only front protection and we know that Susanoos weak spot is its back and same applies here. But the sword... Its very fast and has long range and not to mention that if it touches you even once its pretty much over. Other than that I do think Tsunade has strong chance to beat Itachi.
Well done Chatte <3 ^_^
Thing is .. Itachis Susanoo has the Sword of Tetsuka thats the main factor here. Yata Mirror does nothing as its only front protection and we know that Susanoos weak spot is its back and same applies here. But the sword... Its very fast and has long range and not to mention that if it touches you even once its pretty much over. Other than that I do think Tsunade has strong chance to beat Itachi.
Well done Chatte <3 ^_^
Well you do say that those speeds will be drastically reduced, and up to a certain point you are right. But as long as she has her healing abilities, she would heal the damage and basically her senses would come back to the initial status.
As we've seen, Genesis Rebirth and Byakugou heal at a fast rate. So in the end, I don't think that'll be a problem.
Now let's get back at Tsukyomi problem and my so-called fallacy for this.
When Jiraya took Naruto to train him for 2 years and a half, at one point in time, Jiraya talked to Naruto and learned him how to break a genjutsu. WHy? Because he clearly knew that one day, Naruto might get caught in Itachi's genjutsu leading us to the idea that he know about Itachi's arsenal. So if Jiraya knows and has a solution for him, considering his statement about how genjutsu works, don't you think that Tsunade should be in the same situation given the fact that in the end, she is a medical ninja of great intellect? Here's the scans where it's showed how you can break out of genjutsu and we clearly know that this was like an adress to Itachi's genjutsu, since Jiraya knew that Akatsuki was after him, especially Itachi Uchiha.
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Like Jiraya says, you have to control your chakra flow through and link it to the cranial nerves. The exact type that Itachi did with his Tsukyomi if we look back at Kakashi and Sasuke situation.
In the end, why did Jiraya told Naruto that she's the only one who can heal it? Because he knew she is capable enough. And probably Tsunade has been studying this and shared the info with Jiraya that they got to know how to interrupt it.
Not to mention that after this, even Itachi himself recognized that this was the way when he says "He's grown, but still weak".
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So Itachi himself implies that it can be broken.
So it's not a fallacy it's purely something that I have been "studying" closely. Call it the weakness that I try to find in every jutsu, like Itachi himself said. Every jutsu has a weakness, implying that even his own have a weakness, you just have to be smart-enough to find them.
I didn't forgot anything, I just took the two characters as we know them and made a comparison.
Even if it's with full knowledge or without full knowledge, this still could go both ways. Yes, she might rush into Totsuka, I agree as I've stated myself, if she's hit by Totsuka, she's done, if not, she stands a chance to win.
But as she might rush, so Itachi might be confident enough and want to get closer to her and that would be his end, as well. So either way this battle goes either way, heh.
We all know that Itachi could easily win, but few of us actually stood and thought how to counteract Itachi's movements, cause it's easy to say he wins, right?
You say Tsukyomi + Amaterasu. Ok. If she gets away from amaterasu, given her resilience and the fact that Amaterasu burns not that fast if we look back + he healing abilities, it shouldn't be much of a problem.
Sure, she would be in pain, but as we've seen, she's highly resilient and she could still get going while she had two Susanoo swords impaled through her abdomen. And mental pain is nothing else but chakra connection to the cranial nerves which she can heal.
As the analysis, well, I couldn't done it shorter because in the end I wouldn't have covered everything that's to say.
Thank you!
Thank you.
As I said as well, even if she wouldn't avoid it, she would still have the capability to diminish the damage she takes from Amaterasu, making it easier to be able to fight it,
Well, in the end she doesn't die, she gets sealed, heh, as we've seen with Orochimaru.Believe me , I would like her to survive . but logically speaking and given the facts that I pointed out ..it seems almost impossible for her to survive Susano'o , let alone be able to beat Itachi .
and yes it is incredibly fast ..
No problem , this is the least reply I can present to an amazingly well done , long and eloquently written thread like this
Now I wonder if the speed of Susano'o that Itachi has is dependent of his stamina or not because in the chapter with Orochimaru he seemed a lot lower on speed than in the chapter with Nagato.
You know what's in for you if you read the rules.
Don't come running and crying back.
Well, finally someone that analyzed this in quite depths.Too long didn't read.
I'm just kidding. After all, it's you Chatte, so I read it all.
The only problem I have, as some have stated, is Amaterasu. You're right, it's a fixation of the eye. You've also shown me that Tsunade does, in fact, have speed feats. Quite truthfully, though, any shinobi has basic speed feats due to Shunshin no Jutsu. However, I wanted to point out that with Amaterasu it's not actually a matter of speed. The only person (who I remember, at least) to avoid Amaterasu was A, the Raikage. However, he did so using Lightning Release Armor which, contrary to popular belief, does not increase speed. A's Lightning Release Armor fires the synapses in order to acheive maximum reflex efficiency. He dodged Amaterasu by Shunsin no jutsu.
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Amaterasu follows the target from a linear point so long as the Mangekyou Sharingan is focused on the target. A simply waited for the moment that Amaterasu touched him and used Shunshin no Jutsu to sidestep the attack. By that point, the black flames had passed A and would have been unable to follow him had Sasuke known in that split-second that A dodged. Tsunade is fast, I'll give you that, but unless she can use her medical prowess to increase her reflexes, she may not be able to dodge it.
Well, now that you remember me, given her stats, taking out her medical prowess there would be something that could actually increase all her senses. Hyourougan. Soldier pills that increases all the five senses, therefore her speed feats could be increased.
Now if we take into consideration her medical skills, I doubt she couldn't do that but it's just not her fight type stile.
Hmm, dunno what to say about that. It seems a bit far fetched to mee to.
But in the end not much is known about Totsuka so who knows?
Aah, just 4-5 days of gathering info and putting it alltogether, heh.You put a tonne of effort into this O.O
So long xd
But nice work but you will have trouble convincing these Itachi fans :T_T:
Although you have changed my perspective on a fight if they had one .. I am now not too sure, I guess its all down to circumstances <.<
Anyway great work :
like & thanks
I don't have to convince anyone, actually. IF they are willing to actually think and see facts based on manga, it's their choice. If not, not.
In the end of course it's all down to circumstances and this always could go two ways as I've said myself.
The easy way, we know it, Itachi wins this because of this and that. But let's take it a little back and actually try to think for counteracts.
Like they say with "It's easier to judge than to understand". It's the same here. It's easier to throw a Itachi jutsu on the plate, but has someone actually tried to understand his techniques, how they work, and based on his statement, what's their weakness?
Anyway.. Thank you for your participation!
Well, I have to thank you for the rep but if you didn't read the thread, it would be difficult to explain you again since I explained even her fight with Kabuto in part 1. Plus, let us not forget Kabuto used Hyourougan.
So once again, don't want to be mean but if you didn't read it, I have no base to debate on.
Same goes for you. Don't come crying back.
The rules are well specified at the beginning of the thread.
Well as I've admitted myself, the real problem here is Totsuka blade. If she would be able to avoid that for a bit longer period of time, she would be ok, if not, she's done.
But other than that thank you for your reply! ^_^
Actually, no, they're different. Their composition is different. That means you flawlessly read anything.
You must take the constitution of the animal into calculation before making a statement like that.
Plus, as I've said, granted her abilities she can escape or have Tsunade snap her out of it.
So before actually talking a lot of fail yourself, read an d think properly.
I shall wait you with the rest of the response.
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Look, if you're starting to get all full of yourself, I'd advise you to get out of here.
As I said, I want to talk with people who have a minimum level of decency!
If you don't posses it, than you're free to go, thank you!
Personally, I dont think that Tsunade has any chance here. For example, Amaterasu. It burns the place where the user is focusing his eyesight. The technique itself dont travell to target, it just appears. In other words, one has to be fast enough to fool Sharingan eyesight. Even A with Raiton armor lvl1 wasnt able to do that, Sasuke dodged his elbow and managed to hit him with Chidori. A had to activate lvl2 in order to dodge Amaterasu. Tsunade isnt as fast as lvl1, let alone lvl2.
What happen if she get hit?
Many says that Amaterasu burns slowly, but it isnt true.
Tsunades regeneration could not possibly keep up with damage like that. Not to mention that burning Tsunade would be easy to finish her off.
What happen if she get hit?
Many says that Amaterasu burns slowly, but it isnt true.
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-> Black flames seems to burn slowly when they are left by themselves. But earlier, when Itachi was focusing his eyesight on frog stomach he burned throgh it in second. Another examples:
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Tsunades regeneration could not possibly keep up with damage like that. Not to mention that burning Tsunade would be easy to finish her off.
Simple Math
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i gotta rep you because you put alot of effort into this but i disagree ;/ itachi > tsunade
ps: i didnt read it all but most of it
edit: gotta spread some rep around first
ps: i didnt read it all but most of it
edit: gotta spread some rep around first
Where should I start? First of all, I have read your post and all I have to say about this is, you are terribly underestimating Itachis skills by thinking that he would fall under Tsunades straightforward fighting style. Pretty much 95% of your post is consisting out of statements which are supposed to show Tsunades outstanding strength, speed and stamina which yet cannot be compared with Itachis skills.
Itachi is supposed to be one of the greatest Shinobi of his time and an Uchiha who was praised even among his own clan. Not rarely he was honored for his various skills and talents which were stretching over his high intelligence, analytical skills, speed, usage of weapons, great Ninjutsu, Taijutsu and Genjutsu and his Doujutsu itself. His speed got the full score in the databook and in view of his feats, this score is justified indeed. He possesses the fastest handseals, can create Bunshins with a speed the victim cannot keep up with, can keep up with Naruto in his Kyuubimode and is moving by himself with a speed where we can see nothing but a shadow jumping around [
Your argument for Itachis Genjutsu is as poor as the rest of your argumentation. Looking into his opponents eyes is a matter of habit, not anyone can fight his opponent by just concentrating at his feet, excepting Shinobis which trained this. Sakura herself admitted that it is very hard to avoid only eye contact. Even if not looking at his eyes, Itachi could easily force Tsunade for doing this; as I already explained, keeping eye contact is a matter of habit. Forcing her to look into his eyes seems to be pretty easy, if we consider Itachis speed and excellent feints. He can simply attack her with an explosive Kagebunshin, appear with his speed before her or equip his crows with a Sharingan as well in order to open her and catch her in a moment of inattention into one of his Genjutsus - once Tsunade looked in one of the crows eyes, she is automatically caught in one.
Itachis Tsukuyomi is above this, unavoidable for Tsunade. Firstly, you need to be a blood relative with the Sharingan in order to escape Itachis Tsukuyomi, an other way doesn't exist. Even Kakashi, who possessed the Sharingan with its ability to see through illusions wasn't able to break Tsukuyomi and had to endure several days of torture. The next point is Itachis ability to change space and time within his Tsukuyomi. This is the reason why no one is able to escape this Genjutsu and no one is able to free you from it. By changing the feeling of space and time inside of Tsukuyomi, the several days where you stay inside of it happens only in your mind, in reality, this illusion takes an instant, once second. The illusion starts and ends in the same moment [
Now I am not getting your point with Amaterasu. Yes, it was shown that you can avoid Amaterasu, but yet Tsunade never showed the feats to do this. Amaterasu appears wherever the user is aiming for, once he looked at an object and the flame is instantly caused. By the ability of the Sharingan to predict movements, the chance of hitting the opponent even rises. Raikage A had a speed where a normal eye could not keep up with and yet Sasuke managed to see through his movements, to dodge his attack and to hit him with his own technique. This was further the reason for him to maximize his speed, when Sasuke activated his Mangekyou Sharingan [
When talking about Susanoo, I see once again how terribly you are tending to downplay his abilities. Susanoo is incredibly strong, fast and protects its user from any attack. Already Susanoos skeleton possesses the power to fully crush its opponent with one hand [
Izanami is the next point. You have to realize first that you are trapped in this illusion. Once you have realized it, you need to give up. But is this actually as easy as say? Are you implying that Tsunade would immediately realize what she has to do, once being in such a situation? She will know that she was trapped in an illusion. Everyone who is trapped inside of a Genjutsu is automatically trying to escape it, to free himself from it, so Tsunade will. And this is the wrong way to escape Izanami. Nobody would automatically give up, once being caught in a Genjutsu, the opposite is the case. And once Itachi trapped her in Izanami, he can do with her anything he want. Itachi opened Kabutos eyes back then in order to use Tsukuyomi and a control technique, in Tsunades case he could simply burn her with Amaterasu, rib her neck of with a Kunai or something else.
Itachi is supposed to be one of the greatest Shinobi of his time and an Uchiha who was praised even among his own clan. Not rarely he was honored for his various skills and talents which were stretching over his high intelligence, analytical skills, speed, usage of weapons, great Ninjutsu, Taijutsu and Genjutsu and his Doujutsu itself. His speed got the full score in the databook and in view of his feats, this score is justified indeed. He possesses the fastest handseals, can create Bunshins with a speed the victim cannot keep up with, can keep up with Naruto in his Kyuubimode and is moving by himself with a speed where we can see nothing but a shadow jumping around [
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]. Not even Bee is noticing him by himself [
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]. The gap between Itachis and Tsunades speed, considering that her score in the official databook is 3.5 and her feats are also moderately, is huge. Here you cannot fully ignore the guidelines given by Kishimoto in the databook. All of your proves show noting but Tsunades moderate and followable speed, which can above be predicted by the great insight of Itachis Sharingan - Sasukes Sharingan proved that it can keep up to a speed, where a normal eye cannot keep up with anymore - Raikage As Raiton no Yoroi vol. 1. That Tsunade arrived in a short period to Naruto and Pain after latter crushed the village, or that she arrived synchronous with (base) Raikage in order to stop Naruto and Bee, is a non factor and does not show her speed in an actual fight. Itachis intelligence and analytical battle skills were praised by Kabuto, who admitted that former is able to analyze the battle and read the opponent like an open book, using this ability to his favor [
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] and further showed when Itachi was able to detect Nagatos shared vision, find immediately his blind spot and to destroy the shared vision with his excellent usage of weapons. Tsunade on the other hand is a Iryonin whose skills and intelligence are stretching over medical skills, she is a healer with the task to heal her comrades and not taking place among the fighters; her intelligence in her specialty doesn't clarifies her skills in an actual battle. I don't want to go too much on detail, but both Itachis actions and statements from other characters and the databook clarify Itachis superiority in all areas. Your scenarios, where Tsunade is supposed to outsmart Itachi with her skills, which are restricting themselves to her raw strength, moderate speed and transparent movements might work on a inexperienced Shinobi like Naruto in his young age but not against a Shinobi who was praised for his various skills, his talent and became Anbu leader in an age of 13. We are talking about a Shinobi who showed Orochimaru his inferiority at an age of 13, with a mere Genjutsu.Your argument for Itachis Genjutsu is as poor as the rest of your argumentation. Looking into his opponents eyes is a matter of habit, not anyone can fight his opponent by just concentrating at his feet, excepting Shinobis which trained this. Sakura herself admitted that it is very hard to avoid only eye contact. Even if not looking at his eyes, Itachi could easily force Tsunade for doing this; as I already explained, keeping eye contact is a matter of habit. Forcing her to look into his eyes seems to be pretty easy, if we consider Itachis speed and excellent feints. He can simply attack her with an explosive Kagebunshin, appear with his speed before her or equip his crows with a Sharingan as well in order to open her and catch her in a moment of inattention into one of his Genjutsus - once Tsunade looked in one of the crows eyes, she is automatically caught in one.
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and
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it is illustrated very well how Itachi can catch the victim easily in illusion though latter is aware to be careful against his Genjutsu. Above, Itachi can cast Genjutsus with his whole body, what was the reason for Kabuto to fully close his eyes. Your failure is to underestimate Itachis skills and don't look onto the strategical part of a fight. Further a good Chakra control doesn't grant you automatically the ability to free yourself from all Genjutsus - against weaker Genjutsus maybe, but not against the Genjutsus of the Sharingan. The Sharingan is known for having powerful paralysis and hypnotizing techniques which can paralyze you with a single eye contact. Orochimaru, who had the full score at Genjutsu fell easily under Itachis Genjutsu and also Shee, who was supposed to be a great Genjutsu user and a sensor above, was terribly paralyzed by Sasukes Genjutsu. A, whose Chakra was on the level of a Biju and who was using his Raiton armor on top, was also easily trapped into Madaras paralysis Genjutsu. So in the end, you didn't prove in any case, that Tsunade is able to free herself from a Genjutsu of the Sharingans level. That Katsuyu is about 10 meters doesn't imply that she can't fall for Genjutsu. Manda is much bigger than Katsuyu and yet he was controlled by Sasuke. Kurama is much huger than a summon (especially before Minato sealed away half his Chakra) and yet Tobi controlled him when looked into his eyes. Itachi controlled a person at a range where not even the Sensor Ninja were able to sense him. A directly eye contact isn not needed. The contract between Tsunade and Katsuyu is also a non factor; the contract allows her to summon Katsuyu, Katsuyu is following her orders on her own will by going by the contract. Katsuyu doesn't differs from other summons, it is an individual which can be caught in a Genjutsu. That Itachi wouldn't be able to control Katsuyu when she is split into thousands of herself is right, but yet he can but the complete Katsuyu under his illusion straight after she was summoned. Amaterasu, which is an instant technique and will cover Katsuyus whole body and burn her even if she will split herself, is used in an instant, too. So in the end, Itachi could stop Katsuyu before latter is going to split herself. Your arguments are fully refuted by the Manga.Itachis Tsukuyomi is above this, unavoidable for Tsunade. Firstly, you need to be a blood relative with the Sharingan in order to escape Itachis Tsukuyomi, an other way doesn't exist. Even Kakashi, who possessed the Sharingan with its ability to see through illusions wasn't able to break Tsukuyomi and had to endure several days of torture. The next point is Itachis ability to change space and time within his Tsukuyomi. This is the reason why no one is able to escape this Genjutsu and no one is able to free you from it. By changing the feeling of space and time inside of Tsukuyomi, the several days where you stay inside of it happens only in your mind, in reality, this illusion takes an instant, once second. The illusion starts and ends in the same moment [
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]. This is a period of time, where Tsunade neither can free herself from it, nor someone else can do it. If someone have noticed that you are staying inside this illusion, the illusion is already over. That Tsunade was able to heal Kakashi and Sasuke from Tsukuyomi, doesn't show that she possesses knowledge about this technique. Tsukuyomi left Kakashi mental destroyed, Tsukuyomi attacked his mind and left it damaged. Tsunade, who is a great healer, knew how to heal the wounds his mind was carrying. Her healing skills won't help her in any wise against Tsukuyomi itself, which will trap her in an unbreakable illusion and torture her for several days. If Itachi had the desire, so Kisame implied, Kakashi would've died. Since the mentality is the human weakest point, no one can withstand several days of the worst torture which goes upon your psyche. Sure, Tsunades will can help her to preserve longer in a fight, but whose will would be strong enough to keep staying after his body was tortured for 3 days by the worst scenario? Especially when this happens in the victims psyche - his weakest point? If Itachi had the desire, he would have killed her mentally with one eye contact. Also at this point, you are totally wrong. Now I am not getting your point with Amaterasu. Yes, it was shown that you can avoid Amaterasu, but yet Tsunade never showed the feats to do this. Amaterasu appears wherever the user is aiming for, once he looked at an object and the flame is instantly caused. By the ability of the Sharingan to predict movements, the chance of hitting the opponent even rises. Raikage A had a speed where a normal eye could not keep up with and yet Sasuke managed to see through his movements, to dodge his attack and to hit him with his own technique. This was further the reason for him to maximize his speed, when Sasuke activated his Mangekyou Sharingan [
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]. By doing this, Raikage A was reaching a speed where even the Sharingan couldn't keep up with. The reason, why Amaterasu missed was that Raikage A was faster than Sasukes sight and escaped from it before the flame was actually cast. By implying that Tsunade would possibly be able to avoid Amaterasu, you implying that Tsunade would have a speed where even the Sharingan cannot keep up with, a speed that dominates Raikage As speed in his Raiton armor. In fact, she didn't show nearly the speed to avoid Amaterasu. Her healing ability won't be a solution for her as well. Amaterasu is burning as long as the opponent is burnt to ashes and cannot be extinguished - if needed for 7 days and 7 nights. Apart from that Amaterasu is causing hellish pain since burning nonstop and burns his opponents in a short period - the crow Itachi burnt with Amaterasu disappeared in an instant and also the group of Zetsus was burnt in an instant. If Tsunade isn't wearing a full body armor like the Samurai back then, her whole body will be covered with those flames and will be burned in a short period. When talking about Susanoo, I see once again how terribly you are tending to downplay his abilities. Susanoo is incredibly strong, fast and protects its user from any attack. Already Susanoos skeleton possesses the power to fully crush its opponent with one hand [
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] and break bones which are - according to Kimimaro - harder than steel [
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]. The feats of Susanoos speeds are as incredible as its strength; Susanoos activation is lightning fast and it can crush its opponent with an incredibly speed [
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]. That Sasuke was able to survive Raikage As Raiga Bomb, nobody was able to survive before, with only Susanoos ribgace [
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]Sasukes incomplete and was able to withstand a combination of Bakus suction and Danzos Fuuton-Technique without moving from its place [
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] speaks for its defense. Only Kabuto with his super sensing abilities was able to dodge a long range technique of Susanoo. Ironically, Tsunade never dodged an attack of Madaras Susanoo but took them all, whether it were Susanoos swords or Magatamas. If the talk is about a full armored Susanoo with Totsukas blade and Yatas mirror, you seriously can't insists on her possibility to dodge all if its attack and to outlast Itachi with her stamina. Madara played with the Kages when piercing Tsunade with a sword or throwing his Magatamas, he could also cut her in half with the edge of Susanoos hand, just fully crush her like Sasuke did it with Danzo or finish t he battle by using Totsukas blade. I didn't see any argument from your side to show real possibilities to keep up with Susanoo, anything I can see is that you terribly overrating Tsunades skills.Izanami is the next point. You have to realize first that you are trapped in this illusion. Once you have realized it, you need to give up. But is this actually as easy as say? Are you implying that Tsunade would immediately realize what she has to do, once being in such a situation? She will know that she was trapped in an illusion. Everyone who is trapped inside of a Genjutsu is automatically trying to escape it, to free himself from it, so Tsunade will. And this is the wrong way to escape Izanami. Nobody would automatically give up, once being caught in a Genjutsu, the opposite is the case. And once Itachi trapped her in Izanami, he can do with her anything he want. Itachi opened Kabutos eyes back then in order to use Tsukuyomi and a control technique, in Tsunades case he could simply burn her with Amaterasu, rib her neck of with a Kunai or something else.
- To your statement about Tsunade having great sensing abilities since noticing Orochimarus sickness; this has nothing to do with great sensing abilities or battle analytical skills. She is a great medical Ninja. Seeing the injuries of her 'patients' due to their body language is common prerequisite for a good medical Ninja and won't be a benefit in a fight with Itachi.
- Itachis stamina was great back then though being deadly sick; he used several Genjutsus, several Katon techniques, Tsukuyomi, four Amaterasu and Susanoo for at least 10 minutes, in order to stop Kirin, fight Orochimaru, seal him away and keep it up to the last moment when dying. Considering that he would take his essential medicaments he only stopped to take in order to reach his limit faster against Sasuke, his stamina and health would even be higher. Tsunades stamina is, according to the databook 4, this is correct and a pretty good score. She didn't show us feats where we could assume that she has the full score and the Chakra in her seal you insist on is her own, but it was Chakra he was collecting for a long period. It's not her actual Chakra level.
- When you put up scenes out of the fight with Sasuke, you should be aware that the fight was fully faked by Itachi. The panel where Sasuke was stabbing Itachi in the air was anyways an illusion. Anything in this fight was faked by Itachi and wouldn't happen in a scenario like this, if we take a look at Itachis outstanding battle skills which are stretching over the ability to analyze the battle immediately, read his opponent like an open book and his feints by using explosive and Karasu bunshins, Genjutsus and other things without the opponent can notice it.
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To reply the "gentleman" with "great" vocabulary, meaning Kid A.
1. Speed feats.
You seem to have ignored what I've stated about Tsunade's speed-feats, reflexes and about how she could use her combat skills + experience + feats + surrounding to counteract opponents faster than her.
I couldn't understand good from the image you linked because it lacks quality.
In the Sasuke vs. Deidara panel, Deidara is in the air. Nothing like terrain advantage to use.
In the panel with Itachi and Killer Bee I'll give you the fact that Itachi was telling Killer Bee where and when. But that was an EDO Itachi whose moves are controlled and who is never getting fatigued granted the EDO state.
Plus nor Naruto or Killer Bee have been shown to use in battle the terrain that surrounds them for a better counteracting.
Once again, please read what I have written.
Now if you decide to ignore that it's your thing.
In the confontation with Raikage, Killer B and Naruto, at a certain point even Raikage asked for Tsunade's help. Plus, once again, though I hate to repeat myself, Tsunade can use the feats I presented earlier to better suffice her combat.
Not to mention her reflexes.
As I said her reaction speed is even on tier with Naruto and A (who at that time were in Bijuu mode and V2 mode)
Not to mention that when they left the quarters to meet Naruto and Bee who were both in their bijuu mode, Raikage was in the incentive to hurry so he could catch them. I give you that he wasn't in his V1 or V2 mode who I presume, with no ninjutsu used, has 5 in speed. And who is there with him in the same time to "welcome" both Naruto and Bee? Well, yes, Tsunade.
Now you'll probably ignore this and throw me in the face the same pill with the speed. But even throughout the manga, it was shown that people with less speed than their opponent were able to win over them given their tactics and combat style.
An example would be Asuma and Hidan, Orochimaru and Hiruzen, Lee and Gaara (part 1).
2. Totsuka Blade.
Though I've admitted myself that if she gets sealed by Totsuka it's over, I also presented a scenario where she could avoid it given her evasion skills and Katsuyu.
How? Well, someone earlier made a good point about Totsuka that has made me come with another conclusion.
It is long and fast, indeed. But let's look it this way.
While Itachi concentrates on Tsunade, Tsunade can have at the back Katsuyu who would melt Itachi's Susanoo via acid, as we've seen that her acid melted rocks, when Mei's barely melted the rock wall when fighting Sasuke.
And with that attack coming from the back, it will leave a gap on the back forcing Itachi to concentrate over Katsuyu leaving a spot open for Tsunade who could take advantage of that by incapacitating Itachi via taijutsu because he'll have a spot open in his Susanoo.
You would say that something like that it would be impossible but we have seen Tsunade being able to get past a Susanoo clone who has both EMS Sharingan and the Rinnegan Shared vision and strike it's back.
When not even Killer Bee, a character even faster than her, couldn't get past Nagato.
So we can safely deduct that she can get past the Sharingan reading movements given her skills.
And about Susanoo, sorry, I never said it's defensive Jutsu. It is clearly known that Susanoo is both defensive and offensive. And that basically, both can be done in the same time.
You gave the example of Orochimaru, but still, he got beaten by a Hiruzen with a speed below his.
For Totsuka to actually take her, it has to hit her but Tsunade being a smaller size than the sword itself, she could avoid it and here I bring back her evasion skills. She knows how to take advantage of her size and other stuff as such as shown in the Sannin battle by using her size against Manda's one and knock him down by impaling Gamabunta's sword in his mouth.
When Itachi sealed Orochimaru, as we've seen Orochimaru wasn't in his best condition and he wasn't even moving.
Second, in the battle with Nagato, he was as well standing still.
What I will give you is the fact that he didn't see that coming granted the dust? (?) Though I found it a bitter far-fetched since he should've been able to do it since Rinnegan is supposed to be a development of Sharingan.
But this is as well, as I've said it before, IF.
What I've done here and people don't tend to understand is present a situation given certain scenario.
Anyway, let us pass to the next problem you've posed.
Katsuyu being controlled.
As I've said myself, yes, Summons can get genjutsu-ed.
Here is the page from the databook that says so.
Here it's stated that by the same ocular power. What's the ocular power of the Uchihas? Genjutsu. That's how, indeed, Sasuke did it. But you seem to ignore my statements about Katsuyu's abilities and how that can be prevented.
First, let me tell you that the links you've posted don't work. And second, the Kyuubi case is different as Madara could summon Kurama given a forced contract - the whole Kurama thing is still a bit ambiguous plus Kurama is different than the other Summons.
Secondly, Sasuke could put Manda into genjutsu, I agree with you, but Sasuke already had a contract signed with Manda via Orochimaru.
When I said constitution it seemes that you didn't understand. Yes, Manda and Kurama as large as well, but their constitution differs.
While Kurama situation is still ambiguous, let me explain Manda.
Manda is a large summon which is large by size as lenght while Katsuyu is a large summon but in height.
So here's the difference.
Manda's eyes are easier to reach since he mainly crawls as locomotion system. His eyes are positioned differently than Katsuyu's ones. While his are lower on the ground, Katsuyus are higher in the sky.
Plus, another thing that are differently in regards to Katsuyu and Manda is their construction.
Genjutsu affects mammals generally granted by their five senses.
Genjutsu affects the brain because it plays with the 5 senses. That's why most mammals are affected by it.
But slugs don't have a brain. Slugs are gastropods. Gastropods have ganglia like annelids, which are a buch of nerve cells which coordinate the basic functions of sight, smell.
Another type that doesn't get affected by genjutsu are, as everyone knows, Shino's bugs because their simple nervous system. That's why animals like these cannot be caught in Genjutsu, because of their simple nervous system.
Now let's disconsider this as well, and supposedly Itachi puts Katsuyu in genjutsu.
Does Itachi understand the chakra system of slug that can divide and keep its chakra system intact well enough to control said slug? What is the nature of it's chakra system if Tsunade can give chakra to one mini and all other versions receive it as well? Because Katsuyu's chakra system is so unique should Tsunade give a K-mini chakra then all other Katsuyus will be out of the genjutsu. Making genjutsu inefficient and easily broken against Katsuyu.
So see, if you think it logical it's not that easy to put Katsuyu into genjutsu and even if you put it under genjutsu, granted her abilities, she can break it.
Not to mention that if Katsuyu splits, how will he be able to look into the eyes of 100 up to maybe 1000 Katsuyus?
We have seen how large can her division go in Pain Arc where she surrounded thousands of villagers and protected them.
Now getting back on Amaterasu. Say Tsunade gets caught by it... I proved you in the parts regarding her resilience that Tsunade can act even in extreme painful situations or in situations where she should've been able not to move an inch.
If she gets caught on fire that doesn't mean that she cannot continue to attack while burning. She can use this by getting closer to Itachi/his Susanoo and this way both will get caught on fire forcing him to cancel the technique.
If she could move while being impaled with two Susanoo swords I am sure she can move while burning.
What we've seen with Tsunade is the tendency to beat the opponent with his own weapons.
Of course now that you will say the same overused motif as speed, though I have proven speed feats for her as well.
So there you go, your questions have been answered.
Well regarding all the matters, I have explained them upper on the thread. The only thing I have to say since you said that her regeneration cannot keep it up, I will just like to remind you that the regeneration is rapidly.
So, no, even if she is burning, she's not that easy to be put down given her resilience.
Plus, keep in mind I haven't used the Katsuyu argument. This is just the case where she is the one that gets the hit, not her summon.
It's ok about the rep, don't worry.
@Strict and MubiOxx: I will get back with a response, for the moment I have to dissapear.
1. Speed feats.
You seem to have ignored what I've stated about Tsunade's speed-feats, reflexes and about how she could use her combat skills + experience + feats + surrounding to counteract opponents faster than her.
I couldn't understand good from the image you linked because it lacks quality.
In the Sasuke vs. Deidara panel, Deidara is in the air. Nothing like terrain advantage to use.
In the panel with Itachi and Killer Bee I'll give you the fact that Itachi was telling Killer Bee where and when. But that was an EDO Itachi whose moves are controlled and who is never getting fatigued granted the EDO state.
Plus nor Naruto or Killer Bee have been shown to use in battle the terrain that surrounds them for a better counteracting.
Once again, please read what I have written.
Now if you decide to ignore that it's your thing.
In the confontation with Raikage, Killer B and Naruto, at a certain point even Raikage asked for Tsunade's help. Plus, once again, though I hate to repeat myself, Tsunade can use the feats I presented earlier to better suffice her combat.
Not to mention her reflexes.
As I said her reaction speed is even on tier with Naruto and A (who at that time were in Bijuu mode and V2 mode)
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Not to mention that when they left the quarters to meet Naruto and Bee who were both in their bijuu mode, Raikage was in the incentive to hurry so he could catch them. I give you that he wasn't in his V1 or V2 mode who I presume, with no ninjutsu used, has 5 in speed. And who is there with him in the same time to "welcome" both Naruto and Bee? Well, yes, Tsunade.
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Now you'll probably ignore this and throw me in the face the same pill with the speed. But even throughout the manga, it was shown that people with less speed than their opponent were able to win over them given their tactics and combat style.
An example would be Asuma and Hidan, Orochimaru and Hiruzen, Lee and Gaara (part 1).
2. Totsuka Blade.
Though I've admitted myself that if she gets sealed by Totsuka it's over, I also presented a scenario where she could avoid it given her evasion skills and Katsuyu.
How? Well, someone earlier made a good point about Totsuka that has made me come with another conclusion.
It is long and fast, indeed. But let's look it this way.
While Itachi concentrates on Tsunade, Tsunade can have at the back Katsuyu who would melt Itachi's Susanoo via acid, as we've seen that her acid melted rocks, when Mei's barely melted the rock wall when fighting Sasuke.
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And with that attack coming from the back, it will leave a gap on the back forcing Itachi to concentrate over Katsuyu leaving a spot open for Tsunade who could take advantage of that by incapacitating Itachi via taijutsu because he'll have a spot open in his Susanoo.
You would say that something like that it would be impossible but we have seen Tsunade being able to get past a Susanoo clone who has both EMS Sharingan and the Rinnegan Shared vision and strike it's back.
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When not even Killer Bee, a character even faster than her, couldn't get past Nagato.
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So we can safely deduct that she can get past the Sharingan reading movements given her skills.
And about Susanoo, sorry, I never said it's defensive Jutsu. It is clearly known that Susanoo is both defensive and offensive. And that basically, both can be done in the same time.
You gave the example of Orochimaru, but still, he got beaten by a Hiruzen with a speed below his.
For Totsuka to actually take her, it has to hit her but Tsunade being a smaller size than the sword itself, she could avoid it and here I bring back her evasion skills. She knows how to take advantage of her size and other stuff as such as shown in the Sannin battle by using her size against Manda's one and knock him down by impaling Gamabunta's sword in his mouth.
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When Itachi sealed Orochimaru, as we've seen Orochimaru wasn't in his best condition and he wasn't even moving.
Second, in the battle with Nagato, he was as well standing still.
What I will give you is the fact that he didn't see that coming granted the dust? (?) Though I found it a bitter far-fetched since he should've been able to do it since Rinnegan is supposed to be a development of Sharingan.
But this is as well, as I've said it before, IF.
What I've done here and people don't tend to understand is present a situation given certain scenario.
Anyway, let us pass to the next problem you've posed.
Katsuyu being controlled.
As I've said myself, yes, Summons can get genjutsu-ed.
Here is the page from the databook that says so.
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Here it's stated that by the same ocular power. What's the ocular power of the Uchihas? Genjutsu. That's how, indeed, Sasuke did it. But you seem to ignore my statements about Katsuyu's abilities and how that can be prevented.
First, let me tell you that the links you've posted don't work. And second, the Kyuubi case is different as Madara could summon Kurama given a forced contract - the whole Kurama thing is still a bit ambiguous plus Kurama is different than the other Summons.
Secondly, Sasuke could put Manda into genjutsu, I agree with you, but Sasuke already had a contract signed with Manda via Orochimaru.
When I said constitution it seemes that you didn't understand. Yes, Manda and Kurama as large as well, but their constitution differs.
While Kurama situation is still ambiguous, let me explain Manda.
Manda is a large summon which is large by size as lenght while Katsuyu is a large summon but in height.
So here's the difference.
Manda's eyes are easier to reach since he mainly crawls as locomotion system. His eyes are positioned differently than Katsuyu's ones. While his are lower on the ground, Katsuyus are higher in the sky.
Plus, another thing that are differently in regards to Katsuyu and Manda is their construction.
Genjutsu affects mammals generally granted by their five senses.
Genjutsu affects the brain because it plays with the 5 senses. That's why most mammals are affected by it.
But slugs don't have a brain. Slugs are gastropods. Gastropods have ganglia like annelids, which are a buch of nerve cells which coordinate the basic functions of sight, smell.
Another type that doesn't get affected by genjutsu are, as everyone knows, Shino's bugs because their simple nervous system. That's why animals like these cannot be caught in Genjutsu, because of their simple nervous system.
Now let's disconsider this as well, and supposedly Itachi puts Katsuyu in genjutsu.
Does Itachi understand the chakra system of slug that can divide and keep its chakra system intact well enough to control said slug? What is the nature of it's chakra system if Tsunade can give chakra to one mini and all other versions receive it as well? Because Katsuyu's chakra system is so unique should Tsunade give a K-mini chakra then all other Katsuyus will be out of the genjutsu. Making genjutsu inefficient and easily broken against Katsuyu.
So see, if you think it logical it's not that easy to put Katsuyu into genjutsu and even if you put it under genjutsu, granted her abilities, she can break it.
Not to mention that if Katsuyu splits, how will he be able to look into the eyes of 100 up to maybe 1000 Katsuyus?
We have seen how large can her division go in Pain Arc where she surrounded thousands of villagers and protected them.
Now getting back on Amaterasu. Say Tsunade gets caught by it... I proved you in the parts regarding her resilience that Tsunade can act even in extreme painful situations or in situations where she should've been able not to move an inch.
If she gets caught on fire that doesn't mean that she cannot continue to attack while burning. She can use this by getting closer to Itachi/his Susanoo and this way both will get caught on fire forcing him to cancel the technique.
If she could move while being impaled with two Susanoo swords I am sure she can move while burning.
What we've seen with Tsunade is the tendency to beat the opponent with his own weapons.
Of course now that you will say the same overused motif as speed, though I have proven speed feats for her as well.
So there you go, your questions have been answered.
Well regarding all the matters, I have explained them upper on the thread. The only thing I have to say since you said that her regeneration cannot keep it up, I will just like to remind you that the regeneration is rapidly.
So, no, even if she is burning, she's not that easy to be put down given her resilience.
Plus, keep in mind I haven't used the Katsuyu argument. This is just the case where she is the one that gets the hit, not her summon.
Well, it's your right to disagree. But what I've done, as you saw is back-ed up everything with her feats and not go into the area of "Tsunade wins this by a punch" or "Itachi wins this with genjutsu".i gotta rep you because you put alot of effort into this but i disagree ;/ itachi > tsunade
ps: i didnt read it all but most of it
edit: gotta spread some rep around first
It's ok about the rep, don't worry.
@Strict and MubiOxx: I will get back with a response, for the moment I have to dissapear.
First of all, you are seriously getting this wrong. If I would've underestimated Itachi, I would never do a Tsunade vs. Itachi thread. By common sense and logic, Itachi is one of the best shinobi out there. So that's why this battle I did it based on those facts.
Just because you say he would never fall under Tsunade's style of fighting doesn't mean he wouldn't do it. We saw Itachi getting caught off guard in a taijutsu battle when he was fighting Kabuto, in a EDO state where all his abilities were haxxed at max. You will, of course that Kabuto was in Sage mode, and of course I'll give you that, but still doesn't chage the fact that he was caught in a taijutsu battle, where he had all infos on his opponent as Kabuto told them everything of his new-acquired state.
So, hopefully, we cleared this out.
Once again, I have to repeat myself that I started this thread exactly on these premises. If you remember other threads we were discussing on, I, myself, stated that Itachi was a prodigy himself more than Sasuke. While Sasuke had the easy way to acquire his techniques, Itachi developed them by himself. I never said his speed was low, I just proved by manga facts that Tsunade has speed of her own, and of course that not like the likes of Itachi, Kakashi & co. I just pointed that her taijutsu style is different than other characters in the manga, characters that have to base their attacks on speed because of different factors like their resilience, for example.
I'll give you those feats you showed here, nothing more or less they're showing the prowess of Itachi, but as you can see, when Itachi told Killer B "Behind you" the response of Killer Bee was "On it", meaning he was already expecting this and was about to counteract accordingly, which he does later on the panel. Plus, at that time, Kabuto was controlling them and he used the feats of the two characters as he wanted. That doesn't mean Itachi would've done the same thing, would've had the same strategy. But of course, that doesn't mean he wouldn't have it. So there are 50/50 chances.
Once again, don't get me wrong, I already explained the premises from which I started this thread.
I give you that there is that difference between the two character's speeds, but that's why I presented in the first place her fighting style. I haven't ignored the guidelines given by Kishimoto, yet, it's not the first time when the Databook has inconsistencies and differences between it and the manga. He shows one thing in the manga and another thing in the Databook. And I am not the only one in this base to have stated such.
I guided myself solely on the manga facts.
You say that Itachi has great insight with his sharingan, as proven by Sasuke (though they are 2 different characters and we have seen that Sasuke is destined to surpass any known Uchiha), nothing more true. But on a different post, I already showed how Tsunade can even get past that given a similar scenario. Where?
Well, in the battle with Madara. She was able to get behind 5 Susanoo clones with shared Rinnegan vision and hit one of them in the back, so how else would she got there if not for her speed paired with evasive skills?
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And we know that Rinnegan is the evolution of Sharingan so everything Sharingan implies, it is heightened in Rinnegan.
Though you cannot ignore that's an actual speed feat itself. And taking out those ones, there are a lot of other speed feats I have shown besides those.
Itachis intelligence and analytical battle skills were praised by Kabuto, who admitted that former is able to analyze the battle and read the opponent like an open book, using this ability to his favor [
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] and further showed when Itachi was able to detect Nagatos shared vision, find immediately his blind spot and to destroy the shared vision with his excellent usage of weapons.Well, I'll give you that, nonetheless, still Kabuto before that was blabbering about his sage-mode and already gave Itachi info on how to get him off-guard. We can't say that Kabuto is a self-conscious person. If you look at the entire fight, all he did was to praise himself and even think himself as above the Uchihas. He was just cockily praising himself instead of actually planning his way to fight 2 Uchihas. A big no-no!
Well now, about the shared vision thing, same can be said by Tsunade as I showed you previously that she was capable to get past not 1 but 5 Susanoo clones with shared Rinnegan vision.
The misconception everyone has about Tsunade is that she is just a medical ninja.
I think I already showed that Tsunade is not only a Iryonin. The ways to train a medical ninja is different. Medical ninjas are trained differently than ninjas who focus only on fighting. Besides the basic medical knowledge they have to have a vast specialized knowledge as Tsunade stated herself, not stretching just over medical skills. They have to take into consideration every type on ninja they encounter and be able to not get caught in the enemy attack. So their knowledge doesn't have to focus only on medical field.
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So medical ninja by common logic have to be trained in all aspects. Healing, dodging, evasion etc.
She doesn't have only that green chakra which characterizes a Iryonin. That chakra is transformed from the normal chakra into green chakra for purposes of healing. But the base chakra is still the same. We have seen that along the manga, so I don't think I need to back it up with scans.
I give you the fact that medical ninjas are not supposed to participate in battle. I mean, hell, that's one of the rules Tsunade herself established. But she is different than the ordinary type of medical ninja, as she herself and Jiraiya proclaimed. Besides of a medical ninja she is a combatant ninja.
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Now why would Jiraiya state such a thing about her if not for her medical and combat skills?
Just because we have seen Itachi fight more than Tsunade in this manga it doesn't mean that one is above the other one. While he is ranked as a missing-nin and his "duty" is to fight, Tsunade has been put in the back because she was put as a Hokage.
And the Hokage's duties differs. She has to be all the time in her office, giving orders, planning strategies so on and so forth. But before that we have seen that she is not just a Iryonin.
You say that my argumentation is poor, yet you still can't ignore is there and by common logic should work.
Once again, you compare two 16 years old shinobis with a mid 50's one who has passed through 2 Ninja World Wars.
The difference between both Sakura AND Naruto lays between accumulated experience over vast areas.
The habbit of looking into one's eyes works when you are fighting a regular shinobi, not one whose been praised a prodigy amongst Uchihas. It's all about knowledge and experience.
Well, as you use the crows as a medium of Itachi's arsenal, so is Katsuyu.
What would prevent for Tsunade to gave Katsuyu scattered all over the combat field and dictate to Tsunade every move Itachi does? So even if he has the speed, if Tsunade knows already his incentive, she could counteract it by having the eyes closed having Katsuyu as her help. There, another mean of how you can fight an opponent with greater speed than you.
It was shown throughout the Manga that Katsuyu and Tsunade have a mental connection. So easily Katsuyu can be Tsunade's eyes.
Regarding the explosive bunshin, well, I think it's already explained that she can resist that, since she took even higher damage than that.I'll give you your scenario where she gets caught in genjutsu. I already offered different ways on how she could escape it. Do I need to repeat myself? If it's your choice to ignore it, well, that's nothing I can do about that as everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
Once again, I don't think I need to explain myself why I chose Itachi and why I don't underestimate him.
I give you that the above characters fell into the genjutsus but none of the above characters were praised for their chakra control. Who was Orochimaru praising and envying throuought the manga for the level of techniques aquired if not Tsunade?
Regarding Raikage, if he has the levels of a Bijuu it doesn't automatically grant him the fact that he is using his chakra perfectly.
This is the difference between their chakras and Tsunade's chakra.
Regarding the Katsuyu matter, I think I already explained what makes her different than other summons, based on her constitution and feats shown.
Getting back to Madara's actions to put Raikage into genjutsu, why didn't he put Tsunade when he had a clear shot on her? In the same example you used, is showed how Oonoiki got Raikage out of genjutsu by a mere touch.
In this scenario, replace Raikage with Tsunade and Oonoiki with Katsuyu. There, I proved it.
Now, don't want to sound cocky or anything, but I don't remind the scenario presented by you regarding Itachi. If you would be nice enough to show it to me, I'd be grateful, as I would like to understand that context.
Why isn't a direct contact needed if the principle no. 1 is to have the sharingan user look into the eyes of the caster?
Well, I think you got the wrong deal with Katsuyu and Tsunade. Yes, I give you the fact that Katsuyu follows Tsunade's orders by her own will, but isn't this a proof regarding the trust and team-work they have on each other?
Katsuyu at her own will is serving Tsunade, not because Tsunade necessarily wants her too. This is another difference between Tsunade's Katsuyu and Manda, Kurama, Gamabunta and other summons.
In the moment she's summoned still doesn't explain how could Itachi be able to rise on her level in order to catch her into genjutsu.
I'll give you that might be able granted his crows technique but that leave's a spot open for Tsunade to send her chakra as Tsunade has showed that she can summon Katsuyu on a spot convenint to her so she's able to keep Katsuyu as a shield. And after she is released from the genjutsu, Katsuyu could simply split (and this has been shown that it's at a fast rate), attack etc.
Well, I am sorry but I have never seen Itachi's Amaterasu to burn something that large. Not saying it doesn't.
But if she's caught, she can simply go poof and leave the place where she was to burn as it was shown in the manga and then once again get summoned later, maybe, as Tsunade's resilience could deal with Amaterasu if she gets caught by this time.
Well, here is where you seem to have missed some details about Tsukyomi.
First of all, when Naruto was put under Tsukyomi, he was trying to escape it by disrupting his chakra, as Jiraiya has taught him.
Itachi himself admitted there that "He's grown, but he's still weak" clearly leaving us the indication that Tsukuyomi can be broken if your chakra control is good enough.
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Another thing where you seem to not understand how Tsukyomi works, is actually the chakra controlling point.
What does Tsukuyomi do? It takes your chakra tubes which are connected to your cells and through shock waves it sends different commands to your brain.
Mind is working dependable on how the brain works. If your shock waves dictate you to jump in one feet in your mind you jump in one feet, because these are the signals your brain is receiving.
So, the mere fact that Tsunade came and healed Kakashi and Sasuke in an instant it shows that she knows how to deal with it, that she clearly understands the base principle of Tsukuyomi.
Plus, the second that Itachi touches her with any other technique or weapon, it's cancelling the jutsu itself.
Why do you think that he always puts enemies in Tsukuyomi but never actually attacked them afterwards?
2 of 3 Legendary ninjas have shown that they know the base principle of Tsukuyomi.
Jiraiya when he trained Naruto how to break it, clearly showing that he knows how to do it.
Tsunade when she healed Kakashi and Sasuke through her medical knowledge.
Oh, and I just remembered her statement to Kakashi where she says that she wouldn't have expected him to be beaten by those 2 enemies meaning she knows their skills, that is, including Itachi's and she would never expect for Kakashi to fall under it.
Genjutsu (generally speaking, meaning it includes them all, even Tsukuyomi) is created when a ninja extends their chakra flow through the cerebral nervous system of their opponent to control their minds chakra, thereby affecting their five senses. Genjutsu techniques manipulate the flow of chakra in the victim's brain, thus causing a disruption in their senses.
Who has been showed to fix these irregularities if not Tsunade, as I said up there? If she has for example the technique activated, any type of damage done to her brain in order to do damage to the body, given the techique it would be impossible because it would counter it. Basically any damage that comes, either mental or pshysical, the jutsu will make it ineffective. It's a link between the jutsu and the body. As in the technique is programmed to heal/resolve any irregularities that it feels in connection to the body.
Hope I was clear enough.
Now, passing on the next question. Actually your point with Amaterasu and Raikage it shows that Amaterasu is travelling to it's target, otherwise Raikage would've been able to dodge it even with his armor, because we saw that afterwards, the flames traveled to the Samurai. To be honest, this is a bit of a little misunderstanding at the middle, I guess, because even when Sasuke was fighting the Zetsus, he actually threw his flames at the Zetsus.
Now ok, dismissing Tsunade's evasiveness and the fact that she was able to get pass the Rinnegan shield of vision, let's say that she gets hit by Amaterasu. Disconsidering the fact that you make it look like she would just stand there and she'd do nothing, given her resilience, Tsunade would be able to continue fighting. She has proved that she is able to keep going even if she's immobilised, she's cut, she's impaled etc.
Do you honestly think that she couldn't take Amaterasu?
By this time Itachi should be already fatigued but Tsunade could still be going and could get close enough to him, setting him on fire with his own flames forcing him to cancel the jutsu.
That is in a scenario that she hasn't used Katsuyu as a shield, of course.
And in the end, depending on what she wears, what if her jacked is caught on flame? She could just drop it. (Inside joke here, hope you got it).
However if she gets caught, there is as well the possibility that she just disposes of her caught part as later she can regrow them.
Itachi's Amaterasu was differently showed than Sasuke's Amaterasu. You can't compare a crow's size with a Zetsu's zise.
If it would be to burn instantly than honestly Raikage, the Samurai, Sasuke when he got caught, should've been ashes by now. You will give me the fact that Itachi tried not to kill Sasuke and I will agree with you but let us not forget that in the end the intensity depends on the level of the tiredness as we've seen and by now Itachi should be pretty tired as it was shown throughout the manga that Sharingan consumes a lot from your energy. Both Sasuke and Itachi were shown that they get fatigued after a long use of the sharingan and the pain is so hard, that it's like every cell in the body aches.
Well if you see things like that, than that's your view and of course I won't be able to change it as I once again say it, everyone is entitled to their opinion.
Well, I'll give you those feats, still you missed the whole point in Tsunade's fighting with Madara's Susanoo.
She clearly stated that she meant to create an opening for the other kages. There she offered herself to tank Madara's attacks in order to create that opening which I told you about.
So the scenario with Madara's Susanoo is different. She has the kages to worry about as well, not only herself.
Now if she was able to break a Susanoo who was able to get past Kimimmaro's bones harder than steel, I think her level of strenght it is clear.
Not to mention the fact that here we're talking about an EDO state Madara which turns around everything.
You're saying that he played with them, still, he admitted that he was forced to bring out Susanoo, to enlarge the number of clones and afterwards transforme them in Susanoo clones so she resisted pretty well fighting 5 Susanoo clones, not just one and out of the Kages she was the only one to land a hit, even if she was impaled.
Not to mention that Madara was trying to lower their determination which he, himself, admitted that it didn't have that effect.
Plus, let us not forget what face Madara made when Tsunade saw through his move, about using the wood clone. By taking out the 25 wood clones he clearly knew that if the 5 go at him, he would get cornered once again and the possibility of getting sealed would exist. So that's why he created them on order to keep him safe of that possibility.
So, once again, the scenario is different here.
You saw under what circumstances Izanami is used, right? Tsunade is not someone that came to be how Kabuto did. All she acquired is by her own self, meaning she admits her good side and her bad side. Plus after Izanami was used on Kabuto, Itachi didn't harm him at any way because this way, he would've taken out Kabuto from it.
Izanami is used when you don't want to admit your true self, but here the situation is different so that scenario drops.
While I'll grant you the thing that maybe my way of expressing myself was wrong, if you look back, the only thing that could've possibly be read by body language would be the trembling of his hand. But what about the erratic heartbeat? She couldn't have so heightened sense of hearing his heartbeat.
Actually, if you think at it, she could benefit from it because noticing Itachi's body language, she could use that in her benefit and know how to tire him more, what to make him use more in order to exhaust him. So her medical abilities do come in handy.
- Itachis stamina was great back then though being deadly sick; he used several Genjutsus, several Katon techniques, Tsukuyomi, four Amaterasu and Susanoo for at least 10 minutes, in order to stop Kirin, fight Orochimaru, seal him away and keep it up to the last moment when dying. Considering that he would take his essential medicaments he only stopped to take in order to reach his limit faster against Sasuke, his stamina and health would even be higher. Tsunades stamina is, according to the databook 4, this is correct and a pretty good score. She didn't show us feats where we could assume that she has the full score and the Chakra in her seal you insist on is her own, but it was Chakra he was collecting for a long period. It's not her actual Chakra level.
Well that medicament he was taking it was helping him to be able to resist more, isn't it? So considering the fight, let's say he was able to keep it like 1 hour? Considering the battle before that.
Well, you clearly negate Tsunade's chakra levels. I clearly showed that that was her chakra. Meaning every chakra her body produces (to put it up like that) she stores it there.
If she wouldn't have chakra up to those limits how she would've been able to summon Katsuyu (which I showed it takes a good amount of chakra) heal the villagers twice (before and after Shinra Tensei). There were thousands of people there which she protected.
Nonetheless, in the battle with Madara she used Genesis Rebirth (which takes a lot more than regular healing), replenished the chakra and healed 2 kages, kept Byakugou activated and as well facilitated the scale for Oonoiki Jinton.
So it is her chakra at the end of the day.
- When you put up scenes out of the fight with Sasuke, you should be aware that the fight was fully faked by Itachi. The panel where Sasuke was stabbing Itachi in the air was anyways an illusion. Anything in this fight was faked by Itachi and wouldn't happen in a scenario like this, if we take a look at Itachis outstanding battle skills which are stretching over the ability to analyze the battle immediately, read his opponent like an open book and his feints by using explosive and Karasu bunshins, Genjutsus and other things without the opponent can notice it.
Not only Itachi fought that way, Sasuke did as well. It wasn't a genjutsu battle dictated only by Sasuke.
So in the end every movements they both showed were dictated by themselves.
Yet, given Itachi's experience he was still able to catch Sasuke when they imaginarily fought only in taijutsu.
Take it like we both play Mortal Kombat on the PS but because you play Mortal Kombat longer than I do, you clearly know better the movements than I do.
As simple as that.
Oh well, to this all I can say, once again, is that everyone is entitled to their opinion. If you choose to ignore everything I've showed in the end it's your decision and I have nothing to do about it.
@MubiOxx going to respond you later. I have to flee again, lol.
Speed wise:
Minato / Naruto / A >>> Tsunade
Itachi / Kakashi > Tsunade
I hate the data book but it clearly shows Tsunade is inferior in terms of speed to these characters.
Itachi - 5
Tsunade - 3.5
Add to this sharingan prediction and it is difficult for Tsunade to even hit Itachi.
My first post still stands, Itachi could just use amaterasu on Tsunade and walk away from the battle U_U
I feel this is a similar to the Itachi vs Nagato threads. So much arguments when Nagato is clearly a tier above Itachi just like Itachi is clearly a tier above Tsunade :shrug:
Minato / Naruto / A >>> Tsunade
Itachi / Kakashi > Tsunade
I hate the data book but it clearly shows Tsunade is inferior in terms of speed to these characters.
Itachi - 5
Tsunade - 3.5
Add to this sharingan prediction and it is difficult for Tsunade to even hit Itachi.
My first post still stands, Itachi could just use amaterasu on Tsunade and walk away from the battle U_U
I feel this is a similar to the Itachi vs Nagato threads. So much arguments when Nagato is clearly a tier above Itachi just like Itachi is clearly a tier above Tsunade :shrug:
1) Tsukuyomi happens in an instant and is thus unavoidable, as stated by Kakashi. Tsukuyomi itself cannot be broken once you have been caught, as stated by Itachi. Healing wounds of a technique afterwards doesn't mean that you on your own are not affected by those technique, too. She is a healer and thus able to heal wounds, whether they are physical or mental. And here you have to prove that Tsunade can break through a technique which is supposed to be unbreakable by Itachi and Kakashi who got this technique by himself. And it is very laughable that you are using Itachis 3-Tomoe Sharingan Genjutsu he used with only 30% of his Chakra against Naruto as an example for Tsukuyomi, when Itachi above that admitted that he couldn't use Tsukuyomi at his current state when fighting Naruto. Where are your prove that Tsunade can break Tsukuyomi when she is actually caught in it? That he can heal mental wounds from others does not prove that she can actually avoid the Genjutsu itself.
2) Since when do clones have a shared field of vision, whether with the Rinnegan nor Sharingan? Each Bunshin is an individual and gives all his informations next to the original once it disappeared. There is nothing like a shared field of vision. Tsunades speed is moderately, she didn't show such high feats. Madaras Susanoo by itself wasn't very fast; his attacks maybe but not on feet. So it isn't a miracle to get Susanoo with once punch. Above, a Susanoo which is standing on his small feet is far easier to get out of its ballance than a Susanoo without legs. Yes, Madara played with the Kage indeed and let us not forget that the fight was full of plots. The best example is, when Madara hold A in Susanoos hand and paralyzed him, so latter wasn't able to move and keep up his Raiton armor. Why did Madara let him drop to the floor instead of crushing him by simply closing Susanoos hand, like Sasuke did it with Danzo? Would be an easy kill. Why didn't he spam meteorites in order to crush them? You get the fight with Madara to serious, he would kill them with one attack if he had the desire but yet he played with them, with the intention not to kill them. The Sharingan possesses a great insight and Amaterasu does appear wherever this Sharingan is aiming for, as stated by Zetsu. Tsunade had to be faster then the Sharingans sight and for now Raikage had to maximize his speed in order to do this. Where did we see Tsunade beeing fast enough to escape the Sharingans sight? Madara confirmed that Tsunade was slower than A. And of course, Amaterasu is burning fast. It burned the Zetsus instantly, as well as Itachis Amaterasu burnt the flesh wall instantly. How can you compare A, who kept up his Raiton no Yoroi and had a huge steel ring on his arm where Amaterasu was mostly burning with Tsunades naked body? Are you implying that Tsunade will fight and defeat Itachi, once being hit and fully burning in Amaterasu, which is burning very fast, causes hellish Pain and cannot be burned? And what should I say about Katsuyu? Once Amaterasu was cast, a Biju cried and almost died. Nagatos dog summon is also able to split itself but yet Amaterasu worked on it. If Katsuyu is fully burning, Amaterasu will affect all the bodies Katsuyu is splitting to.
You are basically saying that Tsunade just won't be affected by any of Itachis Genjutsus, feints, will avoid the Amaterasu with her extraordinary speed (according to the databook 3.5) and will keep Susanoo away from her until Itachi reaches his Chakra limit. Tsunade waasn't even able to avoid Susanoos attacks and had to tank them all. Tanked attacks from a man who only played with her. How would she tank Totsukas blade? Or Susanoos punch which fully crushed Danzo? Itachi wouldn't play with Tsunade put literally destroy her.
We both know that Tsunade is a close combat fighter. This means that she will totally be inferior to Susanoo, which is huger (has a longer range), stronger and faster. I'm talking about the first stage only and not about the last stage with the ultimately sealing sword, the perfect seal and the perfect long range technique Yasaka no Magatama.
. As a close combat fighter, Tsunade won't stand the slightest Chance against the full Susanoo with his ultimately defense and two spiritual weapons. For a longer range, she cannot dodge Susanoos Magatamas (backed up with Manga pages) and Amaterasu as well. For Genjutsus, which can be used for a close and very long range (due to the crows for example) Tsunade doesn't have an answer too, especially not against Tsukuyomi. All you are insisting on are Tsunades medical skills which have nothing to do with breaking an actual Genjutsu. People like Orochimaru with his full Genjutsu score, Shee as a strong Genjutsu user and Sensor, all of them failed hardly before the Genjutsu of the Sharingan. Kakashi, who possessed the Sharingan with its great insight, was left in a hospital for several weeks after looking into Itachis eyes for a second, though latter didn't even had the desire to kill him but could.
Get your facts straight, the Mangekyou Sharingan wouldn't even be needed to beat Tsunade. Itachi already showed that he shits on a Sannin without effort. He outlasts her in terms of speed, intelligence, Ninjutsu, Genjutsu and other versatility. He possesses a bunch of techniques Tsunade cannot counter. Yeah I know that she is an old granny of 50 years with a lot of experience but also Orochimaru is. Orochimaru is even smarter and more experienced than Tsunade, expecially when it comes to the researching of powers, knowledge and especially the Sharingan he was seeking for. And yet he was nothing for Itachi.
2) Since when do clones have a shared field of vision, whether with the Rinnegan nor Sharingan? Each Bunshin is an individual and gives all his informations next to the original once it disappeared. There is nothing like a shared field of vision. Tsunades speed is moderately, she didn't show such high feats. Madaras Susanoo by itself wasn't very fast; his attacks maybe but not on feet. So it isn't a miracle to get Susanoo with once punch. Above, a Susanoo which is standing on his small feet is far easier to get out of its ballance than a Susanoo without legs. Yes, Madara played with the Kage indeed and let us not forget that the fight was full of plots. The best example is, when Madara hold A in Susanoos hand and paralyzed him, so latter wasn't able to move and keep up his Raiton armor. Why did Madara let him drop to the floor instead of crushing him by simply closing Susanoos hand, like Sasuke did it with Danzo? Would be an easy kill. Why didn't he spam meteorites in order to crush them? You get the fight with Madara to serious, he would kill them with one attack if he had the desire but yet he played with them, with the intention not to kill them. The Sharingan possesses a great insight and Amaterasu does appear wherever this Sharingan is aiming for, as stated by Zetsu. Tsunade had to be faster then the Sharingans sight and for now Raikage had to maximize his speed in order to do this. Where did we see Tsunade beeing fast enough to escape the Sharingans sight? Madara confirmed that Tsunade was slower than A. And of course, Amaterasu is burning fast. It burned the Zetsus instantly, as well as Itachis Amaterasu burnt the flesh wall instantly. How can you compare A, who kept up his Raiton no Yoroi and had a huge steel ring on his arm where Amaterasu was mostly burning with Tsunades naked body? Are you implying that Tsunade will fight and defeat Itachi, once being hit and fully burning in Amaterasu, which is burning very fast, causes hellish Pain and cannot be burned? And what should I say about Katsuyu? Once Amaterasu was cast, a Biju cried and almost died. Nagatos dog summon is also able to split itself but yet Amaterasu worked on it. If Katsuyu is fully burning, Amaterasu will affect all the bodies Katsuyu is splitting to.
You are basically saying that Tsunade just won't be affected by any of Itachis Genjutsus, feints, will avoid the Amaterasu with her extraordinary speed (according to the databook 3.5) and will keep Susanoo away from her until Itachi reaches his Chakra limit. Tsunade waasn't even able to avoid Susanoos attacks and had to tank them all. Tanked attacks from a man who only played with her. How would she tank Totsukas blade? Or Susanoos punch which fully crushed Danzo? Itachi wouldn't play with Tsunade put literally destroy her.
We both know that Tsunade is a close combat fighter. This means that she will totally be inferior to Susanoo, which is huger (has a longer range), stronger and faster. I'm talking about the first stage only and not about the last stage with the ultimately sealing sword, the perfect seal and the perfect long range technique Yasaka no Magatama.
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Do you see the speed of Susanoos Magatamas? Tsunade wasn't nearly able to react on it and fully took this attack. It is also funny that Tsunade had two of Susanoos swords inside herself though being so "ridiculously" fast . As a close combat fighter, Tsunade won't stand the slightest Chance against the full Susanoo with his ultimately defense and two spiritual weapons. For a longer range, she cannot dodge Susanoos Magatamas (backed up with Manga pages) and Amaterasu as well. For Genjutsus, which can be used for a close and very long range (due to the crows for example) Tsunade doesn't have an answer too, especially not against Tsukuyomi. All you are insisting on are Tsunades medical skills which have nothing to do with breaking an actual Genjutsu. People like Orochimaru with his full Genjutsu score, Shee as a strong Genjutsu user and Sensor, all of them failed hardly before the Genjutsu of the Sharingan. Kakashi, who possessed the Sharingan with its great insight, was left in a hospital for several weeks after looking into Itachis eyes for a second, though latter didn't even had the desire to kill him but could.Get your facts straight, the Mangekyou Sharingan wouldn't even be needed to beat Tsunade. Itachi already showed that he shits on a Sannin without effort. He outlasts her in terms of speed, intelligence, Ninjutsu, Genjutsu and other versatility. He possesses a bunch of techniques Tsunade cannot counter. Yeah I know that she is an old granny of 50 years with a lot of experience but also Orochimaru is. Orochimaru is even smarter and more experienced than Tsunade, expecially when it comes to the researching of powers, knowledge and especially the Sharingan he was seeking for. And yet he was nothing for Itachi.
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Thing is, I didnt find there answer to my arguments. You didnt explain how Tsunade would be able to escape from Sharingans eyesight. Yes, regenerations is rapidly, but concentrated Amaterasu burns even more rapidly. Like I said, it burned through frogs stomach in second. Thats faster than Tsunades regeneration works. Besides, burning Tsunade is helpless. She cant see anything, and I doubt if she can concentrate chakra while being in such extreme pain. Being stabbed might be painful, but situation where your whole body is burning is obviously more painful.
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we can see Tsunade collapsing after fighting a bit with two of Susanoos swords inside her. First of all the question, how did Susanoo manage to hit Tsunade with her ridiculously speed (sarcasm in the air)? Secondly, how Tsunade can be supposed to fight while fully burning in an extinguishable flame? Fighting against Itachis Susanoo? We saw Madaras Katon technique burning Tsunades whole skin and Amaterasu is burning stronger and nonstop?
SAmIDeXtEr
Active member
There is no point in arguing about this, You D.i.m.w.it............I mma just waste my time(SOMETHINGS ARE NOT MEARNT TO BE LOGICALLY EXPLAINED
adeshina365
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