Tsunade [RedRobin] vs Kisame [lKratos]

RedRobin · Jul 8, 2015

KCM 9bi said:
I bothered to read both points of view. Very good job Red Ronin, but from the beginning this battle was decided.

IKratos wins this debate.

Kisame is the winner.

I appreciate you reading both point of views but I would rather you read the posts fully.

-immortal- · Jul 8, 2015

Ikratos, let tsunade choke on that shark weener fam

Melanin · Jul 8, 2015

I don't think she wins but she doesn't get wrecked.

You argument is put togather very good through, rep 4 that.

Lord Tywin · Jul 8, 2015

KCM 9bi said:
I bothered to read both points of view. Very good job Red Ronin, but from the beginning this battle was decided.

IKratos wins this debate.

Kisame is the winner.

you're a judge?

Beans2 · Jul 13, 2015

This debate needs to be judged. An in depth analysis isn't needed, just a paragraph proving that you read the debate in full and your reasoning for why you think that person won. Verdicts are what these guys need right now. Whoever judges this will get mass +repped, just make sure you check with both debaters to make sure they're ok with you judging.

EZQ · Jul 13, 2015

Beans2 said:
This debate needs to be judged. An in depth analysis isn't needed, just a paragraph proving that you read the debate in full and your reasoning for why you think that person won. Verdicts are what these guys need right now. Whoever judges this will get mass +repped, just make sure you check with both debaters to make sure they're ok with you judging.

I'll judge. No need for massive rep lmao. I'll post soon.

If both debaters agree of course.

Beans2 · Jul 13, 2015

ezequielosses said:
I'll judge. No need for massive rep lmao. I'll post soon.

If both debaters agree of course.

Excellent.

Lord Tywin · Jul 13, 2015

I'm cool with that.
ezequielosses I'll judge your debate tonight

EZQ · Jul 13, 2015

If redrobin agrees then i shall start reading.

EZQ · Jul 14, 2015

Do the debaters agree about me judging this?

RedRobin · Jul 14, 2015

You can judge it. We need 1 more.

EZQ · Jul 15, 2015

CQC

IKratos, you did a good jobon the cqc arguments overall, i liked when you compared the speed of Tsunade and Bee, which is crucial on this battle, it is in fact true that Tsunade would get out manouvered if she goes short range, since Kisame kept up with v1 bee and even managed to steal his chakra while fighting him close range, but you did make one awful mistake which is to not interpretate correctly the scans RedRobin provided about Tsunade fighting Madara, since Tsunade would get tricked my samehada's quick movements but still she would be able to spank samehada away and counter atack Since she was able to do that against Madara who has better reactions than Kisame and Her susano arrows are heavier and a lot bigger than Samehada. If tsunade chose to go CQC on this battle she would lose a just a small portion of chakra and would manage to counter atack before Kisame dries her out. (RedRobin made an excellent point when he made clear that Tsunade's chakra doesn't pop out of her body, meaning that Samehada would have to cut her to absorb chakra and it would still be slower than the absortion it did with killer bee). Also, CQC allows tsunade to **** up Kisame's nervous system.

Also, RedRobin explained very well that Kisame survived Bee's lariat because he absorbed enough chakra from it to heal after. In tsunade's case, her atack is stronger than lariat and at the same time it doesn't give Samehada enough chakra to heal kisame after.
So if Kisame gets punched by Tsunade he's done, he only healed from lariat because at the same time he got the injury he got enough chakra to heal from it. That won't happen in the case of Tsunade punching him.

What i get from these arguments is that on close combat Tsunade would engage Kisame and get her chakra absorbed, but it would be just a small portion of her chakra and she would get the chance of grabbing Kisame and making a counter atack like she did to Madara, so CQC is not a good option for Kisame, since the chakra he would get would be nothing compared to the damage he would receive for having Tsunade spank him. Entering CQC is a battle ender in Tsunade's favor, Kisame would try to out manouver her but he would get countered before he can suck dry Tsunade. RedRobin won here.

BTW:I feel both debaters should have worked more on tsunade's speed feats since i saw almost no argument of this. Ikratos should have looked for scans to downgrade Tsunade's reaction and sunshin speed to reinforce his arguments while RedRobin should have worked on Tsunade's speed as an advantage to upgrade her. Both of you failed here.

Chakra absortion

Okay this was the main factor of this debate, as i saw both of you putting more effort to those arguments which included chakra. RedRobin succesfully compared Kisame's absortion speed to the JuubiTree's absortion speed and actually proved that Kisame's absortion is slower, and he made a great point bringing up Katsuyu's war arc feats countering chakra absortion, so as long as Tsunade is standing on liquid Katsuyu she counters Kisame's chakra absortion, but then Ikrato's beautiful counter shows up... Kisame's large scale suitons would take liquid katsuyu away, forcing Tsunade to stand on water, making tsunade vulnerable to Kisame's absortion. This is also a counter for the argument of Kisame standing on liquid katsuyu and being teleported to where the real katsuyu is to be melted. Since kisame would never make contact with katsuyu if he does this.

What i get from these arguments is that if tsunade tries to counter Kisame's chakra absortion with liquid Katsuyu, Kisame uses his large water jutsus to push Katsuyu away. Basically long scale suiton > Katsuyu Tsunade's only valid counter to a straight chakra absortion is countered, so if Kisame manages (lets se how) to grab tsunade on a vulnerable position and absorb her chakra, the battle ends. Ikratos won here.

Suiton

1- Red Robin won on the arguments including 1000 sharks technique, as shown by the manga scans, Kisame hasn't shown to be able to make enough water to make the sharks and enough water to push them forward. His biggest scale suiton is the dome which only big enough to assume Kisame can make a lot of sharks, but the wave that push them forward is still missing. So the 1000 sharks Tsunami isn't happening without a water source.

2- Ikratos won on the arguments including water prison with a clone feint. Inside water prison, the opponent can't move, so summoning jutsu can't be done. If tsunade goes straight up to hit a clone she would be trapped on the same water that was used to make it. Nice.

3- The most importante one, the water dome, this was the best chance for Kisame, and Ikratos used it pretty well. He succesfully showed how Tsunade's chance of scaping it would be really low. RedRobin arguments about Tsunade scaping the dome by summoning katsuyu and using it as a distraction were countered by the fact that Kisame is a pretty good sensor when he's fused with samehada and he would be able to tell where Tsunade is underwater even if she uses Katsuyu to hide. Also, Ikratos brought good points saying Killer Bee > Tsunade in speed, so if Bee couldn't get out, Tsunade's chances of doing so are very low. If tsunade manages to get out, Kisame would swim back and put her inside again, since the dome moves along with him. Also, i don't think Robin's arguments about Tsunade breaking the dome with one kick is convincing, Tsunade's cick makes a lot of damage to one point, while i think that to break the dome you need an atack that does the exact opposit, like an explosion, to send every piece of water flying (for example FRS). All tsunade would get from kicking the dome is to push water down in one point, and Ikratos explained well that the Dome is holded by kisame's chakra, so that wouldn't destroy it. Tsunade has no valid counter to the Dome, she can't escape it nor destroy it. Ikratos won here.

Overall

1- CQC means death to kisame, he is not stealing tsunade's chakra before she grabs him and spanks him leaving him no scape and not enoug chakra to heal. Tsunade+

2- Tsunade would find the victory if she manages to hit Kisame at least once with full power. The katsuyu arguments were destroyed, she has no chance to melt him. And giving a full power blow to a long range fighter is not easy. Kisame+

3- Kisame's only chance to win is to suck dry Tsunade or to drown her. Tsunade tanks any atack that's based on impact to kill her. Tsunade +

4- Kisame can drown her is he uses the water prison and the clone feint. Kisame + (but i highly doubt it because this would mean Tsunade being close to Kisame and its too dangerous for him.

5- The water dome is definitely a match ender in Kisame's favour. If Tsunade does manage to get out of the dome Kisame swims back and get her in. Inside the dome Katsuyu's chakra gets absorbed as she's slow to dodge. Tsunade can't break the dome.

Sorry i didn't mention silly arguments like Tsunade grabbing Samehada and using it or Kisame fighting Gai only at 3o%. These arguments were obviously countered during the debate and it had no point to make a huge wall of text just for my veredict.

VEREDICT

Ikratos wins. Only due to the match up. Red Robin had almost everything covered until the water dome. Kisame can't kill her long range so he must fight from close distances to steal her chakra, which is too dangerous for him and there's where Tsunade's chance shows up, but all that dies at the moment Kisame uses water dome with couldn't be countered

QUESTION

Red robin, why did you chose this match up? You were a better debater overall and i could tell because of the logic of your posts. You would have won if you hadn't chose a matchup where a close range fighter that has no good feats under water vs a long range fighter that absorbs chakra and moves really fast under water. If you had agreed on restricting the water dome then you would have won. You have to think about this before jumping straight to a debate.

RedRobin · Jul 15, 2015

Thank you ezequielosses. Your judgment was very thorough and I thank you for logically looking at my points, seems like you got a very good understanding of what I was trying to say.

I did this match mainly because I was not sure I would have the time for round 3 so I decided to do this match knowing I might not win and it seemed fun. I had already asked for GSB to be restricted so I didnt want to ask for WD too and I think Tsunade can counter it due to Katsuyu's abilities.

Some points:

1. I showed Kisame summoning in a water prison as well as other shinobi moving in one. So summoning in a water prison doesnt seem very hard.

2. Tsunade's kick doesnt just make damage to one point it effects a whole area. Its compared to a comet hitting the ground in the DB2 quote I brought, obviously not as strong as what a comet would be but if a comet did hit the ground it wouldnt just effect one point which is why it was compared in that way.

3. Kisame becomes a sensor in WD but I already proved he wouldnt find Tsunade in Katsuyu because Katsuyu doesnt have her own chakra. There is evidence to show she doesnt have her own chakra seeing as how she is the only animal in Naruto to directly take chakra from the user. Why would she take chakra from Tsunade if she has her own?

And even if you dont agree with that then Kisame finds where Tsunade is through sensing and swims through Katsuyu's liquid(Not killing her through absorption because she survived against the god tree's absorption) to get her and still gets summoned to Shikkotsu. Large scale suiton is a good counter to liquid Katsuyu on the ground but not a counter in WD.

Either way Tsunade counters WD.

FemmeFatale · Jul 15, 2015

Yall done

Logically Tsunade should be able to jump out of water dome, by forcing chakra from her feet. Ninja can stand on water.
She even has a jutsu to manipulate water .
And how does she even get trapped ? She can jump and avoid it, when she carried gamabunta sword , she jump of manda and jirayah Fire release, and was no where to be seen .

EZQ · Jul 15, 2015

RedRobin said:
Thank you ezequielosses. Your judgment was very thorough and I thank you for logically looking at my points, seems like you got a very good understanding of what I was trying to say.

I did this match mainly because I was not sure I would have the time for round 3 so I decided to do this match knowing I might not win and it seemed fun. I had already asked for GSB to be restricted so I didnt want to ask for WD too and I think Tsunade can counter it due to Katsuyu's abilities.

Some points:

1. I showed Kisame summoning in a water prison as well as other shinobi moving in one. So summoning in a water prison doesnt seem very hard.

2. Tsunade's kick doesnt just make damage to one point it effects a whole area. Its compared to a comet hitting the ground in the DB2 quote I brought, obviously not as strong as what a comet would be but if a comet did hit the ground it wouldnt just effect one point which is why it was compared in that way.

3. Kisame becomes a sensor in WD but I already proved he wouldnt find Tsunade in Katsuyu because Katsuyu doesnt have her own chakra. There is evidence to show she doesnt have her own chakra seeing as how she is the only animal in Naruto to directly take chakra from the user. Why would she take chakra from Tsunade if she has her own?

And even if you dont agree with that then Kisame finds where Tsunade is through sensing and swims through Katsuyu's liquid(Not killing her through absorption because she survived against the god tree's absorption) to get her and still gets summoned to Shikkotsu. Large scale suiton is a good counter to liquid Katsuyu on the ground but not a counter in WD.

Either way Tsunade counters WD.

1- You're right about the water prison, I missed that, that point also goes in your favor.
2-Yes i know it affects a whole area, what i meant is that tsunade aplies her force in one point with that kick. If she threw that kick into the dome she wouldn't break it, since she needs an expanding force to break it (more like an explosion). If she kicked the dome like that she would just break realy hard into the dome again. For breaking the dome she needs an atack that puts pressure on all directions breaking the "walls" of the dome.
3-That's not a proof. You gave something that could work like a sort of evidence. But its logicall she's always asking for Tsunade's chakra because its own chakra is not enough, so that proofs Tsunade's chakra > Katsuyu's, meaning katsuyu needs tsunade's chakra to do big stuff, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have its own chakra.
4-Kisame swims too fast for Tsunade to actually react and summon katsuyu and then send it back to shikkotsu along with kisame before Kisame absorbs her chakra. Kisamehada's absortion is done at mere contact and Kisame could keep swiming and speeblitzing tsunade underwater until she dies of chakra exhaustion, and Tsunade wouldn't be able to react. Plus if tsunade is also in the dome, and summons katsuyu back to shikkotsu she gets summoned there too.

RedRobin · Jul 16, 2015

ezequielosses said:
1- You're right about the water prison, I missed that, that point also goes in your favor.
2-Yes i know it affects a whole area, what i meant is that tsunade aplies her force in one point with that kick. If she threw that kick into the dome she wouldn't break it, since she needs an expanding force to break it (more like an explosion). If she kicked the dome like that she would just break realy hard into the dome again. For breaking the dome she needs an atack that puts pressure on all directions breaking the "walls" of the dome.
3-That's not a proof. You gave something that could work like a sort of evidence. But its logicall she's always asking for Tsunade's chakra because its own chakra is not enough, so that proofs Tsunade's chakra > Katsuyu's, meaning katsuyu needs tsunade's chakra to do big stuff, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have its own chakra.
4-Kisame swims too fast for Tsunade to actually react and summon katsuyu and then send it back to shikkotsu along with kisame before Kisame absorbs her chakra. Kisamehada's absortion is done at mere contact and Kisame could keep swiming and speeblitzing tsunade underwater until she dies of chakra exhaustion, and Tsunade wouldn't be able to react. Plus if tsunade is also in the dome, and summons katsuyu back to shikkotsu she gets summoned there too.

Its just a bubble of water, if its hit really hard in one place it should pop. Kisame cant keep the water together when Tsunade makes a giant hole in one place where the water will burst out. Plus it has no feats to prove it wouldnt pop from a really hard hit.

Except Katuyu outright stated that she was only able to use the chakra in Tsunade's seal. Plus the fact that the kages and Tsunade were dying and all Katsuyu could do is slowly use the seal to heal them. So I would say its pretty clear Katsuyu does not have her own chakra.

Kisame needs to fuse with Samehada then release a huge body of water from his mouth. Katsuyu is summoned at anytime during that process. We already agreed Kisame cant absorb and kill liquid Katsuyu in 1 fall swoop because she was able to survive against the god tree's absorption. So again I dont see how Kisame is not summoned to Shikkotsu, it also doesnt matter if Tsunade comes too because Tsunade wont be fighting Katuyu(95%).

I dont want to sit here and argue anyway but just wanted to point these things out as I dont think they were countered well enough. Thanks again.

Lord Tywin · Jul 16, 2015

RedRobin said:
Its just a bubble of water, if its hit really hard in one place it should pop. Kisame cant keep the water together when Tsunade makes a giant hole in one place where the water will burst out. Plus it has no feats to prove it wouldnt pop from a really hard hit.

Literally nothing you said proves that Tsunade can make the bubble burst. Her attacks don't have a ridiculously aoe. They're concentrated attacks. Her kick doesn't have anything that you can claim it can burst the bubble either.
There is also this