Tsunade Is the Worst Hokage

[Troyg39]

Funny that you are the one stated that peace was already there before the tailed beasts agreement, and before the village was created.. and now you are putting it on me? what?

The Gokage agreed to peace in the meeting held by Hashirama. Also, on top of that giving out the tailed beasts wasn't just a decision Hashirama made.. it was a decision everyone else agreed on also..

Let me just simplify my main beliefs of the argument, to make it a smoother argument.


- No one during that time could control the tailed beasts without being the jinchuriki. Hashirama was the only thing keeping them in check
- Giving away tailed beasts was something everybody of the village had to agree on.
- To say you want peace you have to show you want peace. Keeping 1000+ nuclear weapons and claiming you want peace, is what a hypocrite does.
- Konoha still had the strongest tailed beast remaining
- None of the tailed beasts posed a danger to konoha
- Wars didn't occur because the villages directly attacked each other. They occurred due to misunderstandings. As shown in the recent episode.
- Hashirama was loved by all during his time. You are the only one (maybe Madara also) who believe what he did wasn't good for the village.
- Mito uzumaki became a jinchuriki of the 9-tails.. she can't tame tailed beasts without becoming a jinchuriki. Hence why Hashirama was special in that category. Hell he was put on top of the Sharingan control itself..
- If Konoha kept all the tailed beasts it would just increase the hunger of other countries to want more tailed beasts. Hence increasing assassination missions and increase the lust for them.

- Seals can easily be undone.. Obito clearly did it easily.. if you believe people stronger than Obito couldn't.. then you are surely mistakened

- You are taking other nations for weaklings.

- Konoha wasn't a village full of hypocrites at that time. They wanted to claim peace, they showed it.

- Compared to the other Hokage.. Hashirama still war surpasses them. Hell he basically thought of everything about the village..

- Hashirama already knew that their peace wasn't going to last long..... it was a fact..

- You fail to realize that the 5 nations weren't the only countries during that time that had power...

1. I NEVER said peace was obtained among the other nations. I said that the leaf village in itself had not been involved in any war until after Hashirama gave away the beasts. Yes, the leaf village had peace within it's village. But there was no peace treaty agreement between the leaf and other villages prior to this first meeting. You stated otherwise here:

Clearly you should reread the chapters of the Gokage meeting. The other Kages already agreed to the peace treaty. And because of Hashirama, PEACE had come to Konoha and the world.

2. The decision to enter into a peace treaty was a decision proposed first by Hasirama. No other Kage had this idea. The idea was Hashirama's.

Spoiler

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It says plain as day that the agreement was Hashirama's proposal. Not a collective idea. The agreement was that they entered peace if Hashirama distributed the beasts among them evenly. That was the agreement, and it was Hashirama's proposal. Yes, the Kage agreed to it, but they agreed to Hashirama's proposal. Again, go read the chapter. None of them would sign the agreement unless they got something beneficial to their respective villages in return. They wanted power, not peace. They could have just easily agreed to get along and leave it at that without even having to distribute the beasts, but they themselves said they wouldn't sign unless the beasts were distributed and one Kage even tried to get money and land out of the deal. Hashirama gave up power to a group of people who only wanted it to get a leg up on one another.

3. Mito Uzumaki was the jin of the nine tails. She was so during Hashirama's reign. Even Hashirama had to use a jin to help control the beasts.

4. The misunderstanding that started the wars was due to a lack of a true sense of peace among the nations being established. Hashirama gave them power before he could establish the idea of peace among all of them. To say you want everyone to get along and then give them 1000+ nuclear weapons knowing there is still tension among them is something a hypocrite would do. Again, no one bothered the leaf, despite the misunderstandings, until after they gave away the tailed beasts, which has been stated in the manga to be a way of balancing the power between the nations. With the tailed beasts divided, the nations became more equal, thus making war more of a possibility

5. I never said he wasn't good for the village. I said he is the worst Hokage. It's not about his decision being a bad one. But no other Kage has done anything that had as much of an impact on the future protection of the leaf in a negative way. It's not a matter of me not loving him enough, it's you loving him so much that you feel everything he does is good. Get over yourself and him. My decision to place him as the worst Hokage doesn't come from being a bad one or any of the others being very good ones. They've all made mistakes. But in terms of what's best for the village, the other Kage really haven't done much to effect the village as a whole in a negative way. Hashirama's decision didn't necessarily have a tremendously negative impact, in fact it was slight, but still more than the others have done

6. Countries wanted more tailed beasts but never once challenged the leaf while they were all in the leaf's possession. Everything you saying against that fact is pointless. Also, if you think Obito easily broke the seal, you are an idiot. I'm sorry, but that's the truth. I'm not trying to be rude, but it was stressed in the manga that the seal was weakened tremendously through child birth. It isn't something that happens often. In fact, since only women can have kids, this is something not only rare it's the only time the seal is that weak, but it's even rarer because only a women can cause this weakened state in the seal. Obito didn't break the typical seal. And he was the only one so far to have done so or even attempted. Considering we've only seen about 3 female Jins as opposed to the many guys, the probability of this being a major problem is lowered even more.

7. It doesn't matter if you can't tame a tailed beast without being a Jin, the point is that you can, and every nation so far has been doing so for centuries. The leaf's only instance of not being able to tame a beast was a one time rare instance due to a vastly weakened seal. Statistically it wont happen enough to be a major problem. The leaf has managed it's Jins just fine under normal circumstances.

8. And for the last time, it's not about other nations, it's about the leaf village. No one messed with the leaf village until after the beasts were distributed. No one. Unless you can find me a scan showing a conflict involving the leaf village before the first shinobi war, you have no argument. It's not about the other nations being weak. It's the fact that none of them were strong enough to want to go into battle with the leaf due to the leaf having control over so many tailed beasts. That's why the beasts were to be distributed as to give them a power balance. Hashirama gave away the power that was keeping them a major threat to other nations. His reasoning was noble and pure, but it was ill timing. He gave that power, which weakened the leaf, to other leaders who were not on the same page of unity as he was. You're really just arguing at this point without any cohesive thought.

Your main beliefs do not correlate into one cohesive argument that supports the topic of this discussion. And some of them are flat out wrong.

 

[KingHashirama]

1. I NEVER said peace was obtained among the other nations. I said that the leaf village in itself had not been involved in any war until after Hashirama gave away the beasts. Yes, the leaf village had peace within it's village. But there was no peace treaty agreement between the leaf and other villages prior to this first meeting. You stated otherwise here:



2. The decision to enter into a peace treaty was a decision proposed first by Hasirama. No other Kage had this idea. The idea was Hashirama's.

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

It says plain as day that the agreement was Hashirama's proposal. Not a collective idea. The agreement was that they entered peace if Hashirama distributed the beasts among them evenly. That was the agreement, and it was Hashirama's proposal. Yes, the Kage agreed to it, but they agreed to Hashirama's proposal. Again, go read the chapter. None of them would sign the agreement unless they got something beneficial to their respective villages in return. They wanted power, not peace. They could have just easily agreed to get along and leave it at that without even having to distribute the beasts, but they themselves said they wouldn't sign unless the beasts were distributed and one Kage even tried to get money and land out of the deal. Hashirama gave up power to a group of people who only wanted it to get a leg up on one another.

3. Mito Uzumaki was the jin of the nine tails. She was so during Hashirama's reign. Even Hashirama had to use a jin to help control the beasts.

4. The misunderstanding that started the wars was due to a lack of a true sense of peace among the nations being established. Hashirama gave them power before he could establish the idea of peace among all of them. To say you want everyone to get along and then give them 1000+ nuclear weapons knowing there is still tension among them is something a hypocrite would do. Again, no one bothered the leaf, despite the misunderstandings, until after they gave away the tailed beasts, which has been stated in the manga to be a way of balancing the power between the nations. With the tailed beasts divided, the nations became more equal, thus making war more of a possibility

5. I never said he wasn't good for the village. I said he is the worst Hokage. It's not about his decision being a bad one. But no other Kage has done anything that had as much of an impact on the future protection of the leaf in a negative way. It's not a matter of me not loving him enough, it's you loving him so much that you feel everything he does is good. Get over yourself and him. My decision to place him as the worst Hokage doesn't come from being a bad one or any of the others being very good ones. They've all made mistakes. But in terms of what's best for the village, the other Kage really haven't done much to effect the village as a whole in a negative way. Hashirama's decision didn't necessarily have a tremendously negative impact, in fact it was slight, but still more than the others have done

6. Countries wanted more tailed beasts but never once challenged the leaf while they were all in the leaf's possession. Everything you saying against that fact is pointless. Also, if you think Obito easily broke the seal, you are an idiot. I'm sorry, but that's the truth. I'm not trying to be rude, but it was stressed in the manga that the seal was weakened tremendously through child birth. It isn't something that happens often. In fact, since only women can have kids, this is something not only rare it's the only time the seal is that weak, but it's even rarer because only a women can cause this weakened state in the seal. Obito didn't break the typical seal. And he was the only one so far to have done so or even attempted. Considering we've only seen about 3 female Jins as opposed to the many guys, the probability of this being a major problem is lowered even more.

7. It doesn't matter if you can't tame a tailed beast without being a Jin, the point is that you can, and every nation so far has been doing so for centuries. The leaf's only instance of not being able to tame a beast was a one time rare instance due to a vastly weakened seal. Statistically it wont happen enough to be a major problem. The leaf has managed it's Jins just fine under normal circumstances.

8. And for the last time, it's not about other nations, it's about the leaf village. No one messed with the leaf village until after the beasts were distributed. No one. Unless you can find me a scan showing a conflict involving the leaf village before the first shinobi war, you have no argument. It's not about the other nations being weak. It's the fact that none of them were strong enough to want to go into battle with the leaf due to the leaf having control over so many tailed beasts. That's why the beasts were to be distributed as to give them a power balance. Hashirama gave away the power that was keeping them a major threat to other nations. His reasoning was noble and pure, but it was ill timing. He gave that power, which weakened the leaf, to other leaders who were not on the same page of unity as he was. You're really just arguing at this point without any cohesive thought.

Your main beliefs do not correlate into one cohesive argument that supports the topic of this discussion. And some of them are flat out wrong.

1. Yea but how can the village be not involved in war if the world was still at war? rofl... come on man.. this is plain out logic. And my statement was referring to the Gokage meeting, that they had already agreed on peace in the meeting.

2. it doesn't mean that they didn't agree. I never said Gokage purposed the idea.. i said they agreed to it.. You are saying the fire country and Senju clan + Uchiha clan simply let Hashirama give away the tailed beasts? really?.... uh no. Not gonna happen. Look at the way Tobirama talks.. they had everything already worked out before the meeting. The Meeting was called in place for that purpose.. Yea just like America wants power and not peace right? Cause i mean we can simply throw away all the nuclear weapons we have.. and leave our selves vulnerable to attacks from other countries. Correct? The Tailed beast was a thing about balance of power (even supported by the 2nd Hokage and the 4th Hokage).

3. False, Mito made herself the Jinchuriki. Hashirama didn't make her the jinchuriki...

4. That is not how a misunderstanding starts.... a Misunderstanding that leads to a war is started by a false attack, which someone believes is from another country , when it truly isn't. And when we attack that country and kill their shinobi, we are put into a cycle of war....... Tobirama and 2nd Raikage went for a peace negotiation.. the Kinkaku and Ginkaku bros didn't let them.. to Konoha ninja its basically Kumo disagreeing for peace..

5. So he isn't a bad Hokage.. but he is the worst hokage? I'm done. I'm not here to argue whether you believe he is the best or the worst. I'm here to argue about the reasons you put him as the worst.

6. Seals are easily broken = Fact... it took obito less than 30 seconds to break that seal.. you could also kill the jinchuriki to release the beast.... ......Again. No one in the village to keep them in check. Konoha people understood this, you apparently do not.

7. Do you realize how much security they had to keep for the jins. And do you know how easily the Jins were taken away by the Akatsuki? rofl. And do you know the other countries would simply have been more jealous of Konoha..

8. Leaf = Strongest Village throughout history.. I'm guessing you haven't been reading the wrong manga. What made leaf strong wasn't the Bijuus.. but the shinobi themselves.


Welp all are manga supported and Databook supported.. but you should follow your own advice.. And decide on what you are even trying to say.

Impact of someone's action when their will isn't followed doesn't = their fault... Understand that. You are free to decide who is the worst Hokage. But i'm simply correcting you on your false reasoning.

 

[Troyg39]

1. Yea but how can the village be not involved in war if the world was still at war? rofl... come on man.. this is plain out logic. And my statement was referring to the Gokage meeting, that they had already agreed on peace in the meeting.

2. it doesn't mean that they didn't agree. I never said Gokage purposed the idea.. i said they agreed to it.. You are saying the fire country and Senju clan + Uchiha clan simply let Hashirama give away the tailed beasts? really?.... uh no. Not gonna happen. Look at the way Tobirama talks.. they had everything already worked out before the meeting. The Meeting was called in place for that purpose.. Yea just like America wants power and not peace right? Cause i mean we can simply throw away all the nuclear weapons we have.. and leave our selves vulnerable to attacks from other countries. Correct? The Tailed beast was a thing about balance of power (even supported by the 2nd Hokage and the 4th Hokage).

3. False, Mito made herself the Jinchuriki. Hashirama didn't make her the jinchuriki...

4. That is not how a misunderstanding starts.... a Misunderstanding that leads to a war is started by a false attack, which someone believes is from another country , when it truly isn't. And when we attack that country and kill their shinobi, we are put into a cycle of war....... Tobirama and 2nd Raikage went for a peace negotiation.. the Kinkaku and Ginkaku bros didn't let them.. to Konoha ninja its basically Kumo disagreeing for peace..

5. So he isn't a bad Hokage.. but he is the worst hokage? I'm done. I'm not here to argue whether you believe he is the best or the worst. I'm here to argue about the reasons you put him as the worst.

6. Seals are easily broken = Fact... it took obito less than 30 seconds to break that seal.. you could also kill the jinchuriki to release the beast.... ......Again. No one in the village to keep them in check. Konoha people understood this, you apparently do not.

7. Do you realize how much security they had to keep for the jins. And do you know how easily the Jins were taken away by the Akatsuki? rofl. And do you know the other countries would simply have been more jealous of Konoha..

8. Leaf = Strongest Village throughout history.. I'm guessing you haven't been reading the wrong manga. What made leaf strong wasn't the Bijuus.. but the shinobi themselves.


Welp all are manga supported and Databook supported.. but you should follow your own advice.. And decide on what you are even trying to say.

Impact of someone's action when their will isn't followed doesn't = their fault... Understand that. You are free to decide who is the worst Hokage. But i'm simply correcting you on your false reasoning.

1. Show me where the leaf village was in any conflict prior to the first shinobi war. Otherwise you are wrong. Scans or stop

2. I've already stated that they agreed, and that the beast distribution was about the balance of power multiple times already. Now that it's established there is an agreement, I'm done with this portion of your argument. For your argument about America. Stop. Think. Reflect. We continue to hold our Nuclear weapons not because we feel we want to have them around, but because other nations hold the same power as well. If we just drop ours, we become weaker thus opening the door to be taken over by those who have the power and will use it as leverage. America isn't dumb enough to just let it's nuclear weapons go or give them away in a foolish display of showing we want peace. Hashirama though, thought giving away power was a good idea. You made my point

3. Hashirama allowed his own wife to become the host of a beast. To help him control Kurama, she sealed Kurama. He wasn't able to just control him on his own.

4. Had the true understanding of peace been established, a false attack by a radical pretending to operate under one of the peaceful nations would've been seen through, and the nations would've worked together to find the impostor, not assume that the false attack was real and enter into a war. Because true peace was not established and understood by all nations, they were open to being fooled by false attacks. Hashirama gave them power before true peace was established. If I know and believe that you wouldn't do me any harm, I would not be quick to jump to the conclusion that you did and rule out the possibility of someone trying to set you up. /argument

5. Being the worst Hokage does not mean you are a bad one. If I'm ordering the top 5 basketball players of all time, out of my pool of 5, yes one of them would be the worst, but that doesn't mean he is a bad player. Nothing I said contradicts, so your confusion is the result of your own mental incapacity

6. False. The 8-trigram seal is not easily broken. Obito broke a weakened seal that is only that weak in a very rare circumstance. That is a fact. No other instance has been recorded or the 8-trigram seal breaking. That is also a fact. No Jin in the leaf ended up losing their beast due to simply being killed. Another fact. Konoha people understand this. Anyone who reads the manga understands this. You clearly do not

7. The Akatsuki took away the Jins of everyone except what? The leaf. The leaf were better suited to handle Jinchuriki than the other nations, thus the reason their track record with maintaining the Jins is clearly better than the other nations. They would've been more jealous of Konoha, but they never attacked until after they got tailed beast power. They can be jealous all they want. As long as they don't mess with them. Again, a way to fix this would've been to agree to just unite as one nation. No need for jealously of the leaf if they are apart of the leaf's system. None of them chose to do so

8. Leaf had been involved in 3 ninja wars that all started after they gave up the bijuus. What kept them out of war was the bijuu, not the shinobi they had. /argument

You've provided no scans, no databook entries, and your only sited source was an anime episode. My point is simple. Hashirama was a great leader, but his decision to give the beasts away that time lead to war down the road for the leaf village. He gave up the protection the leaf had from other nations in an effort to help spur peace among the nations. A noble and glorious endeavor. But one that did not put the village first. He is not the worst because he was a bad leader for his village. But out of all 5 leaders for the village, the others chose to focus more on the village as opposed to other nations, Hashirama chose to focus more on other nations as opposed to just the village. As a leader over all, I'd place him much, much higher than last, but as since this thread was about who was the best leader of the village, the Hokage, he is last on my list. The only one who may have been worse, was Hiruzen. I've stated why and supported it with Hashirama's own words and other manga evidence. Until you do the same, stop trying to save face

 

[Ovan]

She did her job. None of the kages are bad because they would give up their lives for the sake of their villagers.