Trends of Sasuke could use tsukyomi

[Waltz]

When the Databook excerpt for Susano'o was written the only canonical reference was Itachi as no one else prior to showcased the technique; that being the case the entire piece was about Itachi's Susano'o [he was listed as the only user] and preceding events in his Mangekyo. ​

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Currently, the information cannot validate for all versions of Susao'o as not only is the Databook outdated but Itachi's version of the Tsukuyomi Genjutsu [a requirement noted by the Databook] is specific to and has been showcased by him only. ​

Spoiler

NINJUTSU; KEKKEI GENKAI; Tsukuyomi
User: Uchiha Itachi
Supplementary; Close range; Rank: none

Main text

Amidst the insight and hypnosis possessed by Sharingan, is a supreme genjutsu, born from the aforementioned hypnosis: Tsukuyomi. Originally, people on the face of the Earth live bound by limitations like time, gravity, and space; and how people exert their abilities within those restrictions is what separates the victors from the vanquished. But in the mental world where the caster drags their opponent, the Tsukuyomi jutsu gives them control over those very limitations!

Namely, this means inside the Genjutsu, the physical world's common sense is completely irrelevant and opposing the caster is impossible. Somebody caught into the Tsukuyomi find themselves into a strange world of infinity, their fate entirely lying inside the caster's hands.

After utilizing Amatearsu, Kagutsuchi and a subpar version [as opposed to Itachi] of Tsukuyomi against Danzo Sasuke still call's Susano'o the

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within his Mangekyo simply because in context, his right eye only allows him to adjust Amaterasu's composure entirely, however, it should be noted that Enton: Kagutsuchi is not the name of that power, but whatever is created from that power. Enton:Kagutsuchi on it's own cannot be the independent Mangekyo Technique for Sasuke's right eye if it is completely useless without the left eye. Both Itachi and Sasuke essentially had the same Mangekyo Abilities:

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As for Madara, we are yet to know what his Magekyo technique's are and what techniques were rooted within Izuna's Mangekyo. ​

 

[Draphsin]

1. Use your reasoning. Every Nature Release ends with "-ton." Enton even means Blaze Release :| Mangekyo powers follow into a theme of relating to a god in some way, and Kagutsuchi, not Enton, follows into this theme.

This means nothing for the second time. Blaze release is what sasuke calls his ama manipulation, the other releases are named after their element respectively:

Katon - Fire release

Suiton - Water release

Yoton - Lava release

Enton - Blaze release?

What is "blaze"? Is "blaze" an element that iv'e never heard of before? No, blaze = ama & since ama is not an element then this breaks the theme of enton being directly related to nature releases.

As for kagutsuchi, so what if it follows the folklore? everything in naruto is somewhat related to japanese folklore. Totsuka & yata are not part of susanoo, yet they follow the same trend, does that make totsuka & yata part of Itachi's MS? Of course not, same applies for enton & kagutsuchi, which is simply the name of one of enton's techniques. Enton itself is the name of the MS technique.

Logically then, Enton is to Kagutsuchi as Katon is to Amaterasu.

Lol This makes no sense, amaterasu isnt katon, it's fire yes but its not katon, does Itachi say "Katon: Amaterasu"? No, this is what your logic implies. Enton is the name of ama manipulation, katon is the name of fire manipulation. The difference between Katon & enton users is that katon users can create fire from nothing, enton users can't unless they have ama. So all in all your comparison is way off.

Sasuke has used Enton: Kagutsuchi in a way that has spawned the flames without using Amaterasu first [

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].

& where is the proof? All this shows me is that sasuke used enton after he had already spawned in some flames. Until you show me sasuke using enton & having flames appear from nothing then enton only manipulates it.

If Enton is the mere manipulation of flames, then what is Kagutsuchi? Why has Sasuke never manipulated the flames and just said Enton, but always Enton: Kagutsuchi? All of that point towards Enton being a nature release and Kagutsuchi being a jutsu in this release that can manipulate the flames.

kagutsuchi is a jutsu created by enton, since enton is the manipulation of amaterasu flames sasuke can then use those flames to create a shape with ama, hence kagutsuchi. Enton is what sasuke uses to manipulate the flames, kagutsuchi is the type of shape that it get's turned into.

Lel @ the bold, enton is what release then?? If enton is "blaze release" then what would the "blaze" be in this case? The "blaze" obviously refers to ama, & since its false that enton can create flames from nothing then by your logic enton literally means nothing. I should be asking you why sasuke doesnt just say kagutsuchi instead of adding enton to the phrase. If kagutsuchi manipulates what enton is supposed to manipulate then that makes the word enton null & void.

2. No, according to me, those all fall into the same Mangekyo power, Kagutsuchi, just like how Obito phasing, teleporting and Kakashi sending things away are all one power: Kamui. They're just variants of that one power.

Lol phasing is teleporting, only on a smaller scale. Kamui is a transportation technique, it transports objects to another dimension, it only has one name so it's a bad example.

A proper example would be like comparing Enton to Doton. Enton is the manipulation of flames, no matter what the shape is enton is what is used to create it, just like Doton is what's used create/shape/manipulate rock, hence enton/doton [blaze/earth release].

3. Once again, use your reasoning. Sasuke uses Kagutsuchi through his right eye. Putting out the flames count as manipulating them since you took control of it and made it do something. Sasuke put out the flames with his right eye. Kagutsuchi is manipulating the flames. Add it all up, and you get that the ability to put out the flames is a variant of Kagutsuchi, just like forming spikes, the orb, or the sword are variants.

& How about you use some reasoning for a change? Sasuke used his eye to extinguish the flames, Itachi did the exact same thing yet there is nothing stating that he has or used enton, he has three mangekyou powers & enton is not one of them. Just because putting out ama causes strain, doesnt mean that it's enton. Sasuke used genjutsu before & suffered eye strain from it, does this mean he used tsukuyomi? No it doesnt.

 

[Seventh Sama]

Of course he does but it isn't on par with itachi's level. ppl claim that sasuke is on the same level as itachi in terms of genjutsu... but he isn't :l

 

[Draphsin]

So in other words you don't have an answer. The fact is that tsukuyomi is just a powerful genjutsu. Its Itachi's skill with the technique that gives it its abilities.
My post from earlier could very well be correct.

So what if I don't have an answer? Sasuke used a 3-T genjutsu & got strained from it's use. Sasuke does not have tsukuyomi because his genjutsu was never powerful, so in exchange he awakened enton.

As far as the three technique thing goes Sasuke has since part 1 been stated to have more potential than Itachi. Sasuke's MS is inverted, a style that none of his predecessors possessed, and as Rikerslade stated Kishi never said that MS maxes out at 3. The fact is that the comment about Sasuke's right eye manipulating flames was made by Cee, a non uchiha, who can only explain things by what he has observed even if he is correct it doesn't mean that it limited Enton to being the only capability of that eye.

Read my scan from earlier, Itachi stated that the third & final MS technique is susanoo, seeing as madara/Itachi/sasuke all possess susanoo & two of them have three known abilities, then it would simply be speculation to assume that sasuke has four powers. All evidence points towards the contrary.

As for Cee making the comment, that doesnt matter either, kishi confirmed sasuke's third power when sasuke said enton himself & when he used his right eye in order to do so. The facts point towards enton being a completely new dojutsu while nothing solid points towards sasuke having tsukuyomi, especially since he hasn't said it's name even once.

To face facts the symptoms of Sasuke's genjutsu are reminiscent of Tsukuyomi and while it may not have the capabilities it KA and Obito's MS genjutsu lack the MS pain, so it can only be Tsukuyomi.

To face facts the genjutsu used on cee was a 3-T genjutsu, therefore it was not tsukuyomi no matter what the symptoms were.

 

[juzumaki]

I know this topic is very popular and people always denied sasuke tsukyomi capabilities but look at these photos below.

Sasuke use tsukyomi on one of the cloud ninja inorder to find killerbee location.Note that Sasuke activated MS and use only his left eyes when casting the genjutsu

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The same pattern sasuke use against killerbee (his right eyes was open and ms was activated)

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this picture show emphasize on the same side of the eyes use to cast tsukyomi.I know it show that sasuke using base sharingan but Madara have show use that the user can still use ms skill without sharingan,this mean sasuke could still cast tsukyomi with his base sharingan activated.In addition,after sasuke did use tsukyomi on shii,why did his eyes hurt him?Shii was immobilize for a good period of time which mean it was not a normal genjutsu.

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Similar trend with Danzo

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so that means perfect jinchurikis break tsukyomi

 

[Seventh Sama]

so that means perfect jinchurikis break tsukyomi

yea, sasuke used tsukyomi on killer bee. but im positive they could break out tsukyomi thats on itachis level

 

[ANiMUS]

So what if I don't have an answer? Sasuke used a 3-T genjutsu & got strained from it's use. Sasuke does not have tsukuyomi because his genjutsu was never powerful, so in exchange he awakened enton.



Read my scan from earlier, Itachi stated that the third & final MS technique is susanoo, seeing as madara/Itachi/sasuke all possess susanoo & two of them have three known abilities, then it would simply be speculation to assume that sasuke has four powers. All evidence points towards the contrary.

As for Cee making the comment, that doesnt matter either, kishi confirmed sasuke's third power when sasuke said enton himself & when he used his right eye in order to do so. The facts point towards enton being a completely new dojutsu while nothing solid points towards sasuke having tsukuyomi, especially since he hasn't said it's name even once.



To face facts the genjutsu used on cee was a 3-T genjutsu, therefore it was not tsukuyomi no matter what the symptoms were.

A 3T genjutsu utilized by MS giving ocular pain. XDXDXD You really are something special. Just so u know a Sasuke had Susano'o before showcasing Enton. When entering the Kage Summit Sasuke stated that he had a new jutsu he wanted to try (susanoo) also Karin was able to sense Sasuke's susano'o chakra before then as well. This was means that IF Kagutsuchi is an MS jutsu. He gained it after unlocking susano'o.

Sasuke used his right for tsukuyomi
At the fight with Bee he awakened Amaterasu

Only after unlocking these two can you gain Susano'o

It was only after attaining Susanoo that Sasuke utilized Enton.

so that means perfect jinchurikis break tsukyomi

As long as it's not Itachi level then yeah

 

[Draphsin]

A 3T genjutsu utilized by MS giving ocular pain. XDXDXD You really are something special.

Call me what you want but facts are facts & the facts > you.

Just so u know a Sasuke had Susano'o before showcasing Enton. When entering the Kage Summit Sasuke stated that he had a new jutsu he wanted to try (susanoo) also Karin was able to sense Sasuke's susano'o chakra before then as well. This was means that IF Kagutsuchi is an MS jutsu. He gained it after unlocking susano'o.

Whoever said that you unlock your two powers before susanoo? Itachi specifically said that he awakened tsukuyomi & amaterasu along with susanoo, meaning all at once. Sasuke had enton he just never used it, he used susanoo beforehand & attempted to use tsukuyomi on bee [which ended up becoming a regular sharingan genjutsu].

Enton is an MS dojutsu, sasuke awakened it along with ama & susanoo.

Sasuke used his right for tsukuyomi
At the fight with Bee he awakened Amaterasu

Sasuke uses his right eye to control ama, this has not only been stated but it's been shown as well. Kishi emphasized sasuke's right eye on the same panel that sasuke uses & calls out the name "enton". Kishi has shown focus on sasuke's eyes when performing genjutsu but nowhere in the manga does it have sasuke saying "tsukuyomi", therefore saying he has it is false. In this case enton now overwrites any chance of sasuke having tsukuyomi because of the three power limit.

& as for bee, sasuke unlocked all three powers when he first awakened his MS. He used ama first [because he's familiar with it], attempted & failed tsukuyomi second [again because of familiarity], & finally susanoo. Only when he was in a dire situation did sasuke learn how to use enton, this just cements the fact that enton is sasuke's "third" power [the one we havent yet seen].

Danzo further explains how sasuke's genjutsu in general is sub-par, telling us that sasuke simply lacks genjutsu prowess so instead of unlocking tsukuyomi he unlocked a new power more befitting of his style.

Only after unlocking these two can you gain Susano'o

Wrong only two mangekyou are needed, then there is a chance that susanoo will manifest itself, albeit a rarity.

It was only after attaining Susanoo that Sasuke utilized Enton.

Doesnt matter, all three powers awaken at the same time.

 

[The Robot With Human Hair]

@draphsin, Regarding your argument on Enton, It does not require the use of Amaterasu through the left eye. It has been shown multiple times to spawn along with the users chakra. Enton: Susano'o Kagutsuchi. Shi's hypothesis is flat out wrong. Enton came with Susano'o and spawned on Susano'o when Sasuke first used it. There is no evidence that he surrounded his Susano'o with flames from the Amaterasu meant for Raikage, as the flames were still burning the samurai. It has the exact properties of Katon, it simply creates the black flames out of chakra, as Katon creates fire out of chakra.

 

[Draphsin]

@draphsin, Regarding your argument on Enton, It does not require the use of Amaterasu through the left eye. It has been shown multiple times to spawn along with the users chakra. Enton: Susano'o Kagutsuchi. Shi's hypothesis is flat out wrong. Enton came with Susano'o and spawned on Susano'o when Sasuke first used it. There is no evidence that he surrounded his Susano'o with flames from the Amaterasu meant for Raikage, as the flames were still burning the samurai. It has the exact properties of Katon, it simply creates the black flames out of chakra, as Katon creates fire out of chakra.

You can't prove that sasuke only used enton in this panel [

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]. The flames appeared, but if we are to look at the panel before that [

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], we can see that he already had ama built up, all he had to do was hit his susanoo with it [which he was directly looking at anyways] & then he can create a shield. Therefore going with the opposite argument of cee being wrong is much less likely, as why would kishi contradict a sensor?

Sasuke didn't just spawn ama on his susanoo without even using his eyes, the previous panels are of sasuke using ama, therefore it makes much more sense for sasuke to have shot his susanoo & used enton to control it from there. It wasn't until

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that sasuke tried to use his ama as a weapon, & that's how he created kagutsuchi.

Enton does not spawn ama, it merely controls it, if enton could spawn ama then tell me ama's purpose? Why would sasuke ever need to use amaterasu if he can simply use enton in it's stead? Amaterasu then becomes a useless jutsu.

 

[The Robot With Human Hair]

You can't prove that sasuke only used enton in this panel [

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]. The flames appeared, but if we are to look at the panel before that [

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], we can see that he already had ama built up, all he had to do was hit his susanoo with it [which he was directly looking at anyways] & then he can create a shield. Therefore going with the opposite argument of cee being wrong is much less likely, as why would kishi contradict a sensor?

You're suggesting that he spawned Amaterasu, which had already been launched, onto his Susano'o, and spread it all over his Susano'o with Enton in a fraction of a second? Seems like a lot of hype for Enton's speed and ability to expand the flames. If it only shapes existing flames, it simply doesn't make any sense.

A sensor that seconds prior had his mind corrupted by Genjutsu, difficult sell that he had kneaded chakra properly before hand.

Sasuke didn't just spawn ama on his susanoo without even using his eyes, the previous panels are of sasuke using ama, therefore it makes much more sense for sasuke to have shot his susanoo & used enton to control it from there. It wasn't until

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that sasuke tried to use his ama as a weapon, & that's how he created kagutsuchi.

Spoiler

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What is this then? His left eye most definitely didn't spawn Amaterasu here.

Enton does not spawn ama, it merely controls it, if enton could spawn ama then tell me ama's purpose? Why would sasuke ever need to use amaterasu if he can simply use enton in it's stead? Amaterasu then becomes a useless jutsu.

Same as Kakashi's Kamui. Speed, distance.

 

[Draphsin]

You're suggesting that he spawned Amaterasu, which had already been launched, onto his Susano'o, and spread it all over his Susano'o with Enton in a fraction of a second? Seems like a lot of hype for Enton's speed and ability to expand the flames. If it only shapes existing flames, it simply doesn't make any sense.

Enton was able to move from the edge of susanoo's ribcage into a multitude of spikes before raikage even landed [

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], I think enton has proven it's worth in speed.

A sensor that seconds prior had his mind corrupted by Genjutsu, difficult sell that he had kneaded chakra properly before hand.

Yet he's the only reliable source of information that we have, he may have fallen victim to genjutsu but he got distracted, he clearly started focusing on sasuke, supported by his constant comments on sasuke's actions, plus the multiple panels of him sensing just like karin did against danzo. Sensors are information gatherers, cee is the raikage's right hand man & an expert sensor, all of this seems legitimate to me, cee being wrong seems highly unlikely.

Spoiler

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What is this then? His left eye most definitely didn't spawn Amaterasu here.

Sasuke can channel his mangekyou abilities through susanoo [with the addition of EMS], he not only spawned flames but he controlled them too. He used both amaterasu & enton for his susanoo so this doesnt mean that enton was used to spawn ama on sasuke's susanoo, ama just spawned because of ama & he controlled it with enton.

Same as Kakashi's Kamui. Speed, distance.

Kamui is kamui, kakashi's is long ranged while obito's is short ranged, they are the same jutsu just like KA is the same for shisui, they simply do different things as well. Kakashi's kamui is not redundant in the slightest, it's the other half of an incomplete jutsu.

So I ask again, what is ama's purpose if enton could create black flames? It has none.

 

[The Robot With Human Hair]

Enton was able to move from the edge of susanoo's ribcage into a multitude of spikes before raikage even landed [

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], I think enton has proven it's worth in speed.

Not really comparable situation, the flames would have moved far greater distance while Raikage was charging with Shunshin in V2 less than a few feet away, in this instance, his density determined his traveling rate.

Yet he's the only reliable source of information that we have, he may have fallen victim to genjutsu but he got distracted, he clearly started focusing on sasuke, supported by his constant comments on sasuke's actions, plus the multiple panels of him sensing just like karin did against danzo. Sensors are information gatherers, cee is the raikage's right hand man & an expert sensor, all of this seems legitimate to me, cee being wrong seems highly unlikely.

He admitted to being defeated by the genjutsu. As his greatest role in the fight between Taka and Kumo was as a sensor and casting genjutsu, he'd be falsifying his own statement if he could use his sensory abilities properly.

Sasuke can channel his mangekyou abilities through susanoo, he not only spawned flames but he controlled them too. He used both amaterasu & enton for his susanoo so this doesnt mean that enton spawned on sasuke's susanoo, ama did & he controlled it.

Susano'o is simply the users chakra taking form, it shouldn't be able to channel abilities from the eyes, as Madara doesn't even require eyes to utilize Susano'o. [

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]

Seems more likely that he'd simply used his Enton: Kagu-Tsuchi in conjunction with Susano'o, through his chakra.

Kamui is kamui, kakashi's is long ranged while obito's is short ranged, they are the same jutsu just like KA is the same for shisui, they simply do different things as well. Kakashi's kamui is not redundant in the slightest, it's the other half of an incomplete jutsu.

So I ask again, what is ama's purpose if enton could create black flames? It has none.

Amaterasu spawns the flames upon the subject of the users vision, Enton spawns the flames wherever the users body or chakra touches, Kagu-Tsuchi alters the shape and controls the flames. Nothing redundant about it.

 

[YellowFang]

Sasuke has,
Amaterasu in his left
&
Enton in his right...

Nothing sort of Tsukiyomi...

 

[Ovan]

If he had it, he would have shown the shit off by now. He showed us everything he got and you think he gonna leave something like that out? He sucks at genjutsu and Kishi would not have him do something that major if his character was not made for it.

 

[Punk Hazard]

This means nothing for the second time. Blaze release is what sasuke calls his ama manipulation, the other releases are named after their element respectively:

Katon - Fire release

Suiton - Water release

Yoton - Lava release

Enton - Blaze release?

What is "blaze"? Is "blaze" an element that iv'e never heard of before? No, blaze = ama & since ama is not an element then this breaks the theme of enton being directly related to nature releases.

As for kagutsuchi, so what if it follows the folklore? everything in naruto is somewhat related to japanese folklore. Totsuka & yata are not part of susanoo, yet they follow the same trend, does that make totsuka & yata part of Itachi's MS? Of course not, same applies for enton & kagutsuchi, which is simply the name of one of enton's techniques. Enton itself is the name of the MS technique.



Lol This makes no sense, amaterasu isnt katon, it's fire yes but its not katon, does Itachi say "Katon: Amaterasu"? No, this is what your logic implies. Enton is the name of ama manipulation, katon is the name of fire manipulation. The difference between Katon & enton users is that katon users can create fire from nothing, enton users can't unless they have ama. So all in all your comparison is way off.



& where is the proof? All this shows me is that sasuke used enton after he had already spawned in some flames. Until you show me sasuke using enton & having flames appear from nothing then enton only manipulates it.



kagutsuchi is a jutsu created by enton, since enton is the manipulation of amaterasu flames sasuke can then use those flames to create a shape with ama, hence kagutsuchi. Enton is what sasuke uses to manipulate the flames, kagutsuchi is the type of shape that it get's turned into.

Lel @ the bold, enton is what release then?? If enton is "blaze release" then what would the "blaze" be in this case? The "blaze" obviously refers to ama, & since its false that enton can create flames from nothing then by your logic enton literally means nothing. I should be asking you why sasuke doesnt just say kagutsuchi instead of adding enton to the phrase. If kagutsuchi manipulates what enton is supposed to manipulate then that makes the word enton null & void.



Lol phasing is teleporting, only on a smaller scale. Kamui is a transportation technique, it transports objects to another dimension, it only has one name so it's a bad example.

A proper example would be like comparing Enton to Doton. Enton is the manipulation of flames, no matter what the shape is enton is what is used to create it, just like Doton is what's used create/shape/manipulate rock, hence enton/doton [blaze/earth release].



& How about you use some reasoning for a change? Sasuke used his eye to extinguish the flames, Itachi did the exact same thing yet there is nothing stating that he has or used enton, he has three mangekyou powers & enton is not one of them. Just because putting out ama causes strain, doesnt mean that it's enton. Sasuke used genjutsu before & suffered eye strain from it, does this mean he used tsukuyomi? No it doesnt.

1. To your claim about "blaze" not being an element, neither is Swift in Swift Release, Scorch in Scorch Release, or Magnetism in Magnetism Release(what the Third and Fourth Kazekage do). Therefore, simply because Blaze isn't an element doesn't mean it's not a Nature Release. The third databook's page on Amaterasu[

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], which was written by Kishi, clearly contradicts your statement and proves my point that Amaterasu is a form of Katon, as it is called "the highest form of Fire Release", which is Katon.

2. Are you blind or stupid? I clearly showed a page of Sasuke spawning the flames with Enton: Kagutsuchi. The rest of your argument essentially falls apart there.

3. We don't know all the details of Enton, and it's clear that there is more to Enton than we know. The fact that every time Sasuke manipulates the flames in some way he says "Enton: Kagutsuchi" means that Kagutsuchi is the manipulation of the flames, and Blaze Release is the nature that this technique falls in. Yes, in a way, Enton is the manipulation of flames, but that's not all Enton is. The fact that Sasuke has a specific name for the manipulation of flames while using Enton indicates that all manipulation of Amaterasu is Enton, but not all uses of Enton is the manipulation of Amaterasu, there's more we haven't seen.

4. Neither Totsuka or Yata Mirror fall into the theme of Mangekyo powers having names that translate into something with the word "god" in them or are gods in Japanese mythology, so this part of your argument falls in on itself and has no meaning.