Tobirama vs Kakuzu

[Gold Lightning]

Its a suicide technique only if you get caught in the explosion, obviously. I shouldn't have to explain this. Unless Gojo has some magic function that prevents Tobirama from teleporting away once its used, then there is literally no reason why he'd get caught.

"Highly probable that the jutsu caster will be caught in it"

The jutsu caster can only be Tobirama can it not? Not to mention Tobirama doesn't exactly mark the battlefield does he.

But that's not the point, the point is we don't know how the alive version of gojo works. Unless you've seen it then by all means show me. The db doesn't say death is inevitable but Tobirama can escape it. There may be a certain way that the jutsu is performed and therefore doesn't allow Tobirama to escape. As an Edo the special tags come from inside his body, if those tags are linked to tobiramas body, then that may be a reason why escape is impossible.

All I'm saying is we don't know how it works (the db is too vague and doesn't give enough info), so you can't just use one aspect of the databook and ignore the other because you "think" something (which you don't actually know for sure). That's like saying you can escape immediate death of RDS if you use shadow clones, but I'm sure you'll argue against that.

 

[Draegod]

Its a suicide technique only if you get caught in the explosion, obviously. I shouldn't have to explain this. Unless Gojo has some magic function that prevents Tobirama from teleporting away once its used, then there is literally no reason why he'd get caught.

The opponent has to some how be slow or restrained otherwise they can also evade if possible (like hiding like a mole, shunshin away, Rashomon, susanoo etc etc). That is why he uses edo to stall and make sure they don't escape (he had to tell his bro to hold Obito), and Hiruzen was able to get out of there before the explosion range as well (the toad as well stated by the databook). It isn't instant nor close to being instant, that is why he doesnt do it by himself and with edo to help retrain or make sure they don't escape.

 

[KidGamer65]

The opponent has to some how be slow or restrained otherwise they can also evade if possible (like hiding like a mole, shunshin away, Rashomon, susanoo etc etc). That is why he uses edo to stall and make sure they don't escape (he had to tell his bro to hold Obito), and Hiruzen was able to get out of there before the explosion range as well (the toad as well stated by the databook). It isn't instant nor close to being instant, that is why he doesnt do it by himself and with edo to help retrain or make sure they don't escape.

If the enemy is fast enough to evade an explosion that large, occurring right in front them, then sure. Kakuzu isn't. Obito was fast, so he needed to be held down.

Besides, if Kakuzu is using Domu the whole time like posted I replied to suggested, then he wouldn't be able to evade, and the reason he does it with an Edo is so there is a zero percent change he gets caught in the explosion. He can watch as the Edos clear the battlefield w/o having to be there himself. Edos aren't to make sure the opponent doesn't escape. Hiruzen and Gamakichi got warning of the explosion before he even pulled his tags out of his body, and Gamakichi was warped away by Minato, he didn't escape on his own. Not evidence that Kakuzu, with zero warning, is going to escape.

Doesn't need to instant to land on him.

Tobirama was the only Gojo user and it was stated to be a suicidal technique, so it obviously means that it has some kind of a thing to it, that cannot be bypassed even by FTG.

@Topic.
Tobirama has nothing to get past Domu, but sitting in Domu the whole time would make Kakuzu almost immobile. It could go either way in the end.

Which was because they'd get caught in it, as the entry explicitly stated. There is nothing else to it. Dying is from getting blown up. If you can escape, then you don't get blown up. If Tobirama uses a clone to perform it, then he doesn't get blown up.

"Highly probable that the jutsu caster will be caught in it"

The jutsu caster can only be Tobirama can it not? Not to mention Tobirama doesn't exactly mark the battlefield does he.

"Jutsu Caster" refers to the one casting the jutsu in general terms. Nothing more, nothing less.

Lol. He had a marking to teleport Obito and the Gudo Dama to, so he does if he needs to. If he needs to he will, so there is no reason why he won't here.

But that's not the point, the point is we don't know how the alive version of gojo works. Unless you've seen it then by all means show me. The db doesn't say death is inevitable but Tobirama can escape it. There may be a certain way that the jutsu is performed and therefore doesn't allow Tobirama to escape. As an Edo the special tags come from inside his body, if those tags are linked to tobiramas body, then that may be a reason why escape is inevitable.

Unless Tobirama's body is made out of paper, then there is no linking. A special explosive tag is created and then its set off. That is how Gojo Kibakufuda works. The only difference is that Tobirama doesn't use the Edo Body for the Paper.

The only issue here is you two taking the words of the entry so literally, especially when they contradict each other. It says death is inevitable, but then it says that its only highly probable that the user gets caught. DB doesn't imply any special link, or anything else that would cause the user's death besides getting caught in the explosion, if you can evade that, then you live. That simple.

All I'm saying is we don't know how it works, so you can't just use one aspect of the databook and ignore the other because you "think" something (which you don't actually know for sure). That's like saying you can escape immediate death of RDS if you use shadow clones, but I'm sure you'll argue against that.

Except RDS' workings already confirm that it takes the soul of the user, and we already know that using Shadow Clones doesn't circumvent it. Databook explicitly states WHY the user dies, and its because they get caught in the explosion. Tobirama has Hiraishin, he can escape. Tobirama has clones to use the jutsu for him.

 

[RustledJimmies]

^If Tobirama's clones could use GKF, why would he need ET to do it ?

Also, the reason it is a suicide technique is because the paper bombs blow up right on his face, or rather, the explosions come from him, which means his body would blow everything up, including itself.

 

[KidGamer65]

^If Tobirama's clones could use GKF, why would he need ET to do it ?

He doesn't need Edo Tensei to do it though, that's the thing. That was never stated, and the Databook implies that you don't need Edo Tensei to perform it.

Also, the reason it is a suicide technique is because the paper bombs blow up right on his face, or rather, the explosions come from him, which means his body would blow everything up, including itself.

Can't see why the explosions would come from his body. Gojo works by detonating these special tags, which keep summoning explosive tags over and over again to create the giant explosion. His body isn't made of paper tags, so he's not going to explode. Its most like the underlined.

 

[Nattana]

He doesn't need Edo Tensei to do it though, that's the thing. That was never stated, and the Databook implies that you don't need Edo Tensei to perform it.



Can't see why the explosions would come from his body. Gojo works by detonating these special tags, which keep summoning explosive tags over and over again to create the giant explosion. His body isn't made of paper tags, so he's not going to explode. Its most like the underlined.

Tobirama said in manga Gojo was a technique designed to use with ET zombies, who are times slower, less mobile and probably way weaker than his Shadow Clones. That's enough proof that he cannot use it with Clones, else Tobirama would turn out to be an idiot.

 

[RustledJimmies]

He doesn't need Edo Tensei to do it though, that's the thing. That was never stated, and the Databook implies that you don't need Edo Tensei to perform it.

He implied that he used Edo to do it when he used it as an Edo Tensei body. Also, why would it be classified as a suicide technique if a living body did it if he could use it with a clone ? Assuming he can use it with a clone is like me assuming that Deidara can spam C0 via clones, no manga feats, hype or databook support that.

Can't see why the explosions would come from his body. Gojo works by detonating these special tags, which keep summoning explosive tags over and over again to create the giant explosion. His body isn't made of paper tags, so he's not going to explode. Its most like the underlined.

Both the bolded and the underlined are the same, the paper bombs come from his body, and as you (more than likely) know, the bombs released summon other bombs, making it a continuous explosion, which means that the... let's call it bomb 1, will summon bombs 2 and then explode, meaning that the bombs that were released earlier will explode before all the bombs are summoned, and thus, he has only two options :

1- Teleport away before the other bombs are released, meaning that his firepower will be reduced.

2- Staying there until the bombs are released, thus releasing the full firepower of the bombs but blowing himself up in the process.

Even if I'm wrong with the above, the databook clearly stated that it is a suicide technique, which means he will die if he uses it with his own body.

 

[Apêx1]

He doesn't need Edo Tensei to do it though, that's the thing. That was never stated, and the Databook implies that you don't need Edo Tensei to perform it.



Can't see why the explosions would come from his body. Gojo works by detonating these special tags, which keep summoning explosive tags over and over again to create the giant explosion. His body isn't made of paper tags, so he's not going to explode. Its most like the underlined.

Basically, you are saying he uses paper and creates the seal in order for the explosion to continuously occur? I can agree that Edo isn't a requirement, but what exactly are you saying he needs to do to work around not utilising his edo? His own paper or a seal which naturally summons paper bombs?

 

[KidGamer65]

Tobirama said in manga Gojo was a technique designed to use with ET zombies, who are times slower, less mobile and probably way weaker than his Shadow Clones. That's enough proof that he cannot use it with Clones, else Tobirama would turn out to be an idiot.

Yeah, because the Edos can blow themselves up and regenerate. He never said it can't be used w/o one. Databook pretty much tells you that it can be used without an Edo Zombie.

He implied that he used Edo to do it when he used it as an Edo Tensei body. Also, why would it be classified as a suicide technique if a living body did it if he could use it with a clone ? Assuming he can use it with a clone is like me assuming that Deidara can spam C0 via clones, no manga feats, hype or databook support that.

Yeah, he used Edo to do it because its much better than doing it himself.

Yeah, because Edo Tensei are made of paper like material, which allowed him to form the special tag. Human bodies are not. It says its a suicide technique because the user will most likely get caught in the explosion. Why are you people trying to add stuff onto that description? Stuff that was never said or implied. Its not said to be a definite suicide technique. You guys need to stop equating it to the likes of the Eighth Gate and Reaper Death Seal.

And no, that's nowhere near the same thing because Tobirama's body isn't the catalyst for the explosion, not when he's living. That's the assumption not supported by manga, databook or hype.

Gojo uses a special tag, which summons other tags. You die if you get caught in the explosion. That's it.

Both the bolded and the underlined are the same, the paper bombs come from his body, and as you (more than likely) know, the bombs released summon other bombs, making it a continuous explosion, which means that the... let's call it bomb 1, will summon bombs 2 and then explode, meaning that the bombs that were released earlier will explode before all the bombs are summoned, and thus, he has only two options :

Except you've yet to tell me how paper tags are coming from a human body. They only came from his body because Edo Tensei are made of paper. What, do you think that he's going to shove his hand in his chest and pull out a bunch of paper? From his flesh? Come on now.

Basically, you are saying he uses paper and creates the seal in order for the explosion to continuously occur? I can agree that Edo isn't a requirement, but what exactly are you saying he needs to do to work around not utilising his edo? His own paper or a seal which naturally summons paper bombs?

Probably some paper with the seal drawn out, but yeah, something along the lines of that.

 

[Apêx1]

Probably some paper with the seal drawn out, but yeah, something along the lines of that.

As long as he possess paper, he can probably use the jutsu, since it seems he is the one creating the seal onto the paper. But I agree.

 

[KidGamer65]

As long as he possess paper, he can probably use the jutsu, since it seems he is the one creating the seal onto the paper. But I agree.

That makes the most sense. He pulled the paper out of his body, and it already had the mark on it, so he probably does form it just how he does the Hiraishin Marking, or something similar to that.

 

[Apêx1]

That makes the most sense. He pulled the paper out of his body, and it already had the mark on it, so he probably does form it just how he does the Hiraishin Marking, or something similar to that.

Agreed. Minato's seal creation [

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]. Tobirama's Seal Manifestation [

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].

Explosive tags (起爆札, Kibaku Fuda) are scraps of paper inscribed with a special writing, centring around the kanji for "explode" (爆, baku). Infused with chakra, they will explode after a set amount of time, remotely, or after being ignited by flame. The tags can be attached to a surface or wrapped around a weapon to be thrown at an enemy. They are very versatile and one of the basic ninja tools.

Should be pretty obvious, Tobirama inputs said amount of chakra, and amount of explosions happen directly proportional to the chakra inputted.

 

[RustledJimmies]

Yeah, he used Edo to do it because its much better than doing it himself.

Yeah, because Edo Tensei are made of paper like material, which allowed him to form the special tag.

I don't really see your point here.

Human bodies are not. It says its a suicide technique because the user will most likely get caught in the explosion. Why are you people trying to add stuff onto that description? Stuff that was never said or implied. Its not said to be a definite suicide technique. You guys need to stop equating it to the likes of the Eighth Gate and Reaper Death Seal.

"If a live person performs the technique, death is inevitable, for it is a blast technique that sacrifices one’s life."

And no, that's nowhere near the same thing because Tobirama's body isn't the catalyst for the explosion, not when he's living. That's the assumption not supported by manga, databook or hype.

1- Never said he is.

2- Number 1 is not the point, the point is, the databook stated both to be suicide techniques, and neither was ever stated not to work via clones, so if you're assuming GKF can be used with a clone, I suppose the same can be said for C0, correct ?

Gojo uses a special tag, which summons other tags. You die if you get caught in the explosion. That's it.

And how is he escaping the bombs that are continuously summoned as I explained in the bottom of the post you just quoted ? Even if he can somehow avoid it with FTG, then why would it be called an inevitable death ?

Except you've yet to tell me how paper tags are coming from a human body. They only came from his body because Edo Tensei are made of paper. What, do you think that he's going to shove his hand in his chest and pull out a bunch of paper? From his flesh? Come on now.

My posts were all based on his use of the technique on panel, though I am curious to know how he would use it in a living body, if he can't pull it out of his chest like he did as an Edo.

Edit : Lol, I accidentally quoted your counter to Nattana XD Didn't even pay attention.

 

[Conspirator.]

Tobirama takes it.

-Speed and reactions to tag juubito 5 times. kakuzu's attacks are evaded with ease.
-His masks are destroyed by Suidhana.
-Has superior stamina as he fought the Uchihas for a day I think.
-Shadow clones and FTG help him destroy all the masks quickly
Tobirama basically evades all his attacks, and outlasts him.(until he can't maintain domu). He then gets killed with an FTG slash. He could be killed with it right off the bat too. Then there's Gojo, but I doubt it's needed in this fight.

 

[Bogard]

Tobirama only needs to mark the main body. He doesn't have to care about the mask. Doton domu isn't automatic, depending on the casting speed of the user and Kakuzu can't react to hiraishin attacks

 

[KidGamer65]

I don't really see your point here.

My point is, him using it w/ ET when he was alive isn't proof that it can't be used w/o ET.


"If a live person performs the technique, death is inevitable, for it is a blast technique that sacrifices one’s life."[/QUOTE]

Upon activation, due to the devastating (terribly violent) explosions, it is highly probable that the jutsu-caster will be caught in it.

1- Never said he is.

Then what is the issue.

2- Number 1 is not the point, the point is, the databook stated both to be suicide techniques, and neither was ever stated not to work via clones, so if you're assuming GKF can be used with a clone, I suppose the same can be said for C0, correct ?

Gojo doesn't work like C0 does, so you saying that they can't be used by clones merely because of how the DB described them doesn't prove your point, doesn't even validly support your point. Gojo works by using special tags to repeatedly summon Explosive Tags. The body of the caster is not used in any way, shape or form.

And how is he escaping the bombs that are continuously summoned as I explained in the bottom of the post you just quoted ? Even if he can somehow avoid it with FTG, then why would it be called an inevitable death ?

Ask the Databook, the same Databook that said it'd be highly probable that the jutsu caster gets caught. That entry doesn't reference Tobirama, it only references the jutsu caster, in general terms. If the jutsu caster can escape, then there is no issue.

My posts were all based on his use of the technique on panel, though I am curious to know how he would use it in a living body, if he can't pull it out of his chest like he did as an Edo.

He'd just form the special tags out of his own paper tags instead of using the Edo Body.

 

[Nattana]

My point is, him using it w/ ET when he was alive isn't proof that it can't be used w/o ET.


"If a live person performs the technique, death is inevitable, for it is a blast technique that sacrifices one’s life."




Then what is the issue.


Gojo doesn't work like C0 does, so you saying that they can't be used by clones merely because of how the DB described them doesn't prove your point, doesn't even validly support your point. Gojo works by using special tags to repeatedly summon Explosive Tags. The body of the caster is not used in any way, shape or form.



Ask the Databook, the same Databook that said it'd be highly probable that the jutsu caster gets caught. That entry doesn't reference Tobirama, it only references the jutsu caster, in general terms. If the jutsu caster can escape, then there is no issue.



He'd just form the special tags out of his own paper tags instead of using the Edo Body.

Still, Hiruzen outran Gojo and Tobirama has no way of restraining Kakuzu. Also, I'm not even sure if Gojo can get past Domu.

 

[KidGamer65]

Still, Hiruzen outran Gojo and Tobirama has no way of restraining Kakuzu.

Like I said to Draegod, Hiruzen escaped Gojo after Tobirama told him to escape, BEFORE he let the jutsu loose.

Also, I'm not even sure if Gojo can get past Domu.

Gojo creates Paper Bomb explosions that dwarf the Juubi clones, which were the same size as Gamakichi. Domu's best feat is tanking Choji's attack. It gets obliterated along with the rest of his hearts.

 

[RustledJimmies]

My point is, him using it w/ ET when he was alive isn't proof that it can't be used w/o ET.

And when exactly did I say it was ? :|

Upon activation, due to the devastating (terribly violent) explosions, it is highly probable that the jutsu-caster will be caught in it.

Too bad that right after that, the same databook says what I quoted.

Gojo doesn't work like C0 does, so you saying that they can't be used by clones merely because of how the DB described them doesn't prove your point, doesn't even validly support your point. Gojo works by using special tags to repeatedly summon Explosive Tags. The body of the caster is not used in any way, shape or form.

I'm not comparing the way they both work, my point is, it was just an example, if Deidara can't use C0 with a clone, why would Tobirama be able to use GKF with a clone ? Neither have shown feats of doing it with a clone, but were never stated not to be able to use it without it, funny enough, everyone assumes Deidara can't use C0 with a clone (which I kinda agree with), but Tobirama can just use a clone to avoid being killed even though the databook explictly stated that death is inevitable if you use it ?

Ask the Databook, the same Databook that said it'd be highly probable that the jutsu caster gets caught. That entry doesn't reference Tobirama, it only references the jutsu caster, in general terms. If the jutsu caster can escape, then there is no issue.

The same DB that stated that it's an inevitable death right after that. Does it matter ? Who used it other than him ? And who designed it to be used with an Edo instead of his own body or that of a clone in the past ?

He'd just form the special tags out of his own paper tags instead of using the Edo Body.

I see, it is a logical assumption, but then again I don't see how that would be a suicide technique. But wouldn't that take prep time ?

 

[Beans2]

The reason I restricted ET was so Gojo wouldn't be used, otherwise Tobirama would easily win.

If it can be used without ET, then I will restrict that as well.