Tobirama vs Hidan, Asuma, Shikamaru and Temari.
- Thread starter Tobby17
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Avinash012
Active member
Don't know whether ur being serious or not.A
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and yet U think a pure senju can't even make 10 clones? Use commonsense bro,If Barrier is stopping Hashirama from making more clones isn't it obviously means that the same logic can be applied to other kages holding the barrier as well?
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^^^ making a bunch of shadow clones is useless in battle if you don't have a big enough pool to make it worth while.
Let's say you have 200 units of chakra and your most conservative technique takes 35 units of chakra.
By making 10 clones*, you know have 200/10 = 20 units of chakra across every clone while each person(clone and original) is 1/10 of your overall strength. You can't even use your weakest technique anymore and you're now a bunch of weaklings instead of 1 strong person.
That's why multi shadow clone is only useful for someone like naruto; His chakra pool is so massive that he can still use all his techniques after making thousands of clones. And, that's why no one in the series makes more than 2-3 clones at a time - it would become pointless.
*EDIT: Number should be 9 seeing as you have to also count the original user. i.e 9 clones + 1 = 200/10 = 20
Let's say you have 200 units of chakra and your most conservative technique takes 35 units of chakra.
By making 10 clones*, you know have 200/10 = 20 units of chakra across every clone while each person(clone and original) is 1/10 of your overall strength. You can't even use your weakest technique anymore and you're now a bunch of weaklings instead of 1 strong person.
That's why multi shadow clone is only useful for someone like naruto; His chakra pool is so massive that he can still use all his techniques after making thousands of clones. And, that's why no one in the series makes more than 2-3 clones at a time - it would become pointless.
*EDIT: Number should be 9 seeing as you have to also count the original user. i.e 9 clones + 1 = 200/10 = 20
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Avinash012
Active member
Iam fully aware of that.*_*
Tobirama is a pure blooded Senju so his chakra pool is more or less compatable to that of Base Naruto.If Naruto can make a 1000 clones with considerable strength then I can't see a problem for Tobirama to creat 10 clones of such.Iam not saying Tobirama would use 10 clones in this battle,just pointing out the fact that he is capable of using more than two clones because other dude said that he can't use more clones because he never showed it.
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^^This actually.
The reason why Naruto spammed So much kagebunshins in part 1 was because that was the only tech going on for him, (in part 2 he was spamming less due to developed skills) no other character have been shown to spam as much as him they would not do anyway.
do people have to see Tobirama make a bunch of shadow clones before they know he can. I can't believe this is even being argued right now. He's a senju, common sense should dictate he can. Plus if you can teleport two Kuramas casually, then surely you can make a bunch of shadow clones no?
Except naruto's 1000 clones have only been used for pure taijutsu because the chakra they had left was too little.
The most recent naruto maxed out at like 12 shadow clones on kcm chakra so that he can still dish out his rasenshurikens and what not and the clones could be a respectable strength. Therefore We can't compare tobirama to naruto at all because naruto has kyuubi stock which multiplies his chakra several hundred times ontop of uzumaki's renowned massive stock.
Side Note: The drain and exhaution from each clone stacks back onto the user. That means, if someone makes 10 clones and they all get exhausted, when they dispel, the original is hit with 10 times exhaution in 1 go. That's another reason mass clone is only suitable for naruto because of increased recovery rate.
It stands to reason that, in a battle, tobirama would stick to 2-3 clones max or he risks killing himself from exhaution (something kakashi even states as a reason people tend not to actually battle with mass clones).
When tobirama has;
- kyuubi reserves to boost the relevance of the clone
- increased recovery to counteract the summative exhaustion
then you can talk. Until then, naruto, an uzumaki juubi jin, is still the only person to actually fight (and not bluff like kakashi) with more than 5 clones at a time.
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Avinash012
Active member
I don't get why ur trying so hard to explain all this to me,I have already told U that Iam not using Tobirama clones as an argument in this thread "Iam simply saying that Tobirama can use more than two clones" & Iam aware of the drawbacks of using SC's.Naruto stopped using Kyuubi's chakra after his battle against Orochimaru and he did fine with SC's even without Kyuubi's chakra.
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lol. and what's ur proof he can't do this??..
read the manga properly dude, and know that Senjus are portrayed to be chakra beasts. So because Naruto can make clones that get killed easily and extra clones to help him with his rasenshuriken,he can fight ''properly'' with it?..
what's your proof he can? My proof is that it's been unshown by everyone who wasn't on kyuubi chakra. Even edo tobirama only made 3 Lol.
Lol@you though for trying to undermine naruto's shadow clone skills.
@bold: He still had kyuubi's massive stamina recovery rate, whether he tapped into the kyuubi's power or not, which is the point. So naruto's never a good example for shadow clones because he's specially tailored for it. I know you're trying to say tobirama can make more than 2 clones, but saying he can fight effectively with them, over a period, is an assumption.
We just saw, through latest chapter, that minato has a massive chakra stock yet he used clones sparingly. Even hiruzen used them sparingly in his old age. Kakashi uses them sparingly, so does itachi. Edo hashirama only made like 8 mokuton bushin, and they were complete fodder. all these guys pretty much use them for quick diversions/feints while naruto uses them the entire fight.
Anyway i already said tobirama probably wins. I doubt he needs shadow clones for this; My point was to raise the idea that, just because naruto can do something doesn't mean someone else can also.
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yes and Hashirama that has chakra levels comparable to to KCM Naruto and Minato could only make 6 while holding the barrier so what's your point???
undermining?, plz tell me what Naruto clones do apart from help him make his rasengan and get killed??. I'm not talking about KCM clones here mind you
I didn't know hashirama was using shadow clones lmao.
He uses them strategically to fool his opponents. They're embedded in his entire fighting style. Tobirama just uses them as a supplement. Naruto's obviously better.
Lol@you trying to say tobirama's automatically as good/better just because he made the technique. Next thing I'll be hearing his ftg is as good as minato's Lol
Avinash012
Active member
I have never said that he can effectively fight with clones nor used Naruto as an example to support my point in first post,As of now we can't say that Tobirama can't fight like that nor he can so it is debatable as we don't have much knowledge on Tobirama's chakra pool and it is a different story which has nothing to do with what I said in my first post.My point from the beginning is that they don't use SC's because they don't need them but that dosen't mean that they can't make more clones,that is what I was trying to tell that dude.
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So, what implies that a wood clone uses up more chakra than a shadow clone??.. The only diff is that wood clones are harder to differentiate from the original than shadow clones are. And where did you get me saying Tobirama is better because he created the justu??.
''lol''
lol alright alright.
I was just trying to bring up the point that even though, really, anyone can make any amount of clones they want, it's dependent on their chakra level/recovery rate that they can actually use more than 1/2 at a time in intense battle. You've said they probably don't use more because they don't need to; however, it's also possible they don't use more than 1 because they realize it's too dangerous :/
Wasn't trying to put words in your mouth, just giving my two cents on why actually fighting with more than 1 or 2 SC's at a time, for anyone but naruto, is very unlikely.
@bold: No one said it does. We don't know how much chakra wood clones take. What we do know is that tobirama
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.After that, He only ever used 1 to actually fight with at a time.
For all we know, Hashi's chakra reserves are just slightly above tobirama's. That whole scan where he implied his reserves are equal to naruto + kyuubi sounds like BS/bad translation/exaggeration anyway, seeing as it's said the kyuubi's chakra is near infinite. It's like, what, this guy never runs out of chakra? rofl. But, hey, maybe wood clones do take more chakra than shadow clones, I don't know. Shadow clones don't take chakra anyway, they just split your current reserves equally, while wood clones actually take a set amount.
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It's a good thing AGoodBoy Posted this scan, Tobirama clearly states that Two is his best:
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- He is also right that he didn't use more than One Clone to fight. To assume that he can is pure speculation. Hashirama doesn't have Shadow Clones, he uses Mokuton-Bushins. You don't know what chakra they cost etc and not that it matters, Hashirama's chakra obviously puts Tobirama's to shame, despite being from the same clan so the comparison isn't apt.
Well then if you don't know the mechanics of wood clone why are you trying to downplay the fact that Hashi could only make six while holding up that barrier even though he's a chakra beast???. If Hashi with all his chakra could only make 6 because of that barrier (this is someone who was controlling shinsuusenju and wood dragon at the same damn time), why are you saying someone who could make two while holding up the same barrier won't be able to make significantly more during a fight where he doesn't have to hold up the barrier??
you know damn well that's not what he meant by that scan, so you're implying that Hashirama is also only capable of making 6 wood clones???. because that was his ''best'' while holding up that barrier. Even madara could make 25 freaking wood clones.
Hashi can obviously make more clones, so can Tobirama. The only reason they made so little was because they were holding up the barrier
^ Hashirama specifically stated that 'because of the barrier that's his best'. You have to remember what Tobirama is stating isn't comparable. Then we have further proof that he didn't make more than one clone for fighting. Let's not ignore all factors and assume on our own that he can make so many clones.
Hashirama's clones are not shadow clones, they are Mokuton Bushins - an extension of his Mokuton Techniques. Not a valid comparison.
Hashirama's clones are not shadow clones, they are Mokuton Bushins - an extension of his Mokuton Techniques. Not a valid comparison.
LOL really??..
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here he says ''I TOO am in a sry state.. implying that just like Hashi he couldn't make more clones because of the barrier, so what if he didn't make more than one clone?.. It's because he didn't need any more than a clone in the activities that followed.