Tobirama vs Gai

[Haizaki]

Juubito was touched because he was Mindless most likely and that was an ET body of the real Tobirama unlike clones which get dispersed at once before they know they're touched with someone like Gai's speed. Did BM Minato touch him when he gained memory? No. Not to mention Tobirama's clone striking speed and reaction most be at play here in order to touch Gai. Yeah doesn't sound like something happening. Asakujaku as well increases his range so this clone argument doesn't even help.

Not to mention Gai's striking speed can create flames so if Gai strikes once a flame hits a clone so direct contact isn't made..very simple. Love how people ignore Gai being able to transition on and off the Gates instantly.

 

[KidGamer65]

Agreed - however tobirama has no ranged attacks so CQC is inevitable

Hand to hand combat, one on one? No. Tobirama trying to tag Gai from his blindside with Hiraishin and clones? Yup, and that's what Gai is going to have an issue with.

Except, the only way tobirama can get to guy is throwing a kunai towarrds his location, then teleporting and attacking,
Guy reacts to the kunai here, and with his far superior striking speed and taijutsu skill, the clone gets poofed,,

He reacts to the Kunai, but what happens when Tobirama and a clone attack Gai from the front and the back? He can't get them both. What happens when Gai attacks a clone, poofs it, only for Tobirama to use the Kunai to warp to his blindside? What's he going to do then? Him having just completed an attack only makes it harder for him to return to a neutral stance, ready to attack again.

The only way the clones can spread out thhe markings is mainly through shunshin,
and as far as that is concerned, guy is well above them in terms of speed, so he sequentially runs to each of the clones and takes them out,

If they all spread out in completely different areas, Gai isn't fast enough to go in all those separate directions and blitz them before they can toss a Kunai. That's just pure overestimation of Gai's speed right there.

Not to mention he can mark a Kunai and throw it, which pretty much puts the final nail in the coffin of this strategy. Once he's spread his markings around, he'll be able to evade Hirudora considering it can't hit the whole area at once.

and im not seeing why hirudora is not happening, its AOE is huge and with clones out of the picture, it can be a GG

If he can't spread his mark then sure, but he can..so no.

 

[Narutimate Storm]

Juubito was touched because he was Mindless most likely and that was an ET body of the real Tobirama unlike clones which get dispersed at once before they know they're touched with someone like Gai's speed. Did BM Minato touch him when he gained memory? No. Not to mention Tobirama's clone striking speed and reaction most be at play here in order to touch Gai. Yeah doesn't sound like something happening. Asakujaku as well increases his range so this clone argument doesn't even help.

Not to mention Gai's striking speed can create flames so if Gai strikes once a flame hits a clone so direct contact isn't made..very simple. Love how people ignore Gai being able to transition on and off the Gates instantly.

you wanking guy too much. He get marked, end of.

 

[GiantShuriken]

Gai neg difficulty hirudora

 

[Haizaki]

Ahh Kidgamer I do think that Kunai back and front strategy would be the hardest to counter though..Main reason why it's a high diff. I think the only solution is for Gai to jump further backwards before the Kunai lands on that point or deflect it with his own Kunai

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..If it lands, he can just move further sideways to be safe from the strategy of behind and the front..He can lure them by jumping up as well and using AT which is fast considering Madara was forced to block..Teleporting may be slower before they are attacked with it.

 

[Haizaki]

you wanking guy too much. He get marked, end of.

Maybe if you could counter my point(With English I beg you) the you'd be worth debating.

 

[KidGamer65]

Ahh Kidgamer I do think that Kunai back and front strategy would be the hardest to counter though..Main reason why it's a high diff. I think the only solution is for Gai to jump further backwards before the Kunai lands on that point or deflect it with his own Kunai

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..If it lands, he can just move further sideways to be safe from the strategy of behind and the front..He can lure them by jumping up as well and using AT which is fast considering Madara was forced to block..Teleporting may be slower before they are attacked with it.

Let's say that Tobirama and a clone or two toss 2 Kunai each at Gai from the back and the front. Gai can't jump backwards, nor can he jump forwards as he'll run right into the Kunai. Deflecting the Kunai works as well, but if he does that, Tobirama can teleport right to it and toss it again.

Jumping sideways would work though, but then Tobirama could attempt this again, except this time he throws from front, back, and the sides. If Gai jumps in the air to evade, and uses Asa Kujaku, then they'll have enough time to teleport away, mainly because:

1. Minato has shown that you can teleport in succession.

2. I don't think Hirudora can travel from Gai's position to where the clones are before they can warp away. Gai can't be too close when he let's it go, otherwise he'll get caught in the explosion. Madara was point blank, and in the air, so it'd make it hard if not impossible to avoid, and even if Gai was right in front of it, it'd take Madara can travel away from the blast. If Gai shoots it downward, it'll crash right into the ground and blow up.

 

[Haizaki]

Let's say that Tobirama and a clone or two toss 2 Kunai each at Gai from the back and the front. Gai can't jump backwards, nor can he jump forwards as he'll run right into the Kunai. Deflecting the Kunai works as well, but if he does that, Tobirama can teleport right to it and toss it again.

Jumping sideways would work though, but then Tobirama could attempt this again, except this time he throws from front, back, and the sides. If Gai jumps in the air to evade, and uses Asa Kujaku, then they'll have enough time to teleport away, mainly because:

1. Minato has shown that you can teleport in succession.

2. I don't think Hirudora can travel from Gai's position to where the clones are before they can warp away. Gai can't be too close when he let's it go, otherwise he'll get caught in the explosion. Madara was point blank, and in the air, so it'd make it hard if not impossible to avoid, and even if Gai was right in front of it, it'd take Madara can travel away from the blast. If Gai shoots it downward, it'll crash right into the ground and blow up.

If I'm correct, we're assuming Gai would be surrounded by clones with Kunai all around him right? that means there'd be Kunais on both sides of the battlefield(In front and behind)?

Ok you actually gave good points regarding this strategy...Though I'd say the gamble is if Tobirama himself appears in front of Gai and gets hit by AT, then his clones disperse before they can actually mark and hit Gai from behind. I think he'd have to learn from the event of the first scenario(Sideways strategy) to actually counter Gai. If Gai evades the first attempt and manages to use AT on one of the Kunai flooded areas Tobirama decides to teleport to, that's very risky.

If Tobirama teleports to the other side opposite to where Gai used AT. The Kunai's on the other side would be completely destroyed considering AT's range and Gai would then have a solid idea of where to be attacking next. He can fire off another one towards that side while Tobirama and the rest won't be able to teleport to the other side unless they use Shunsin.

Though I'd admit it's a high difficulty fight for both sides..If Gai uses AT in quick successions on both sides of the battlefield flooded with Kunais, he can possibly win as using Shunsin to the other side means they might still get caught up in the explosion. If they try to get to Gai's front, he can use Asakujaku as they're coming at him. It really depends.

Either way if it fails, then Tobirama wins as Gai jumping up would only mean he's forced on the defensive constantly.

 

[ARGUS]

Hand to hand combat, one on one? No. Tobirama trying to tag Gai from his blindside with Hiraishin and clones? Yup, and that's what Gai is going to have an issue with.

The intel is full here, and tobirama could only tag guy through the use of his own physical striking speed, which is well below guys,
especially when he was unable to tag even RT Madara despite getting to his blind side

the utility of FTG is good and all, but what do you mean about guys blind side? he still reacts, and strikes before tobirama and his clones, so no matter how you look at it, guy would be the one landing the blows before tobirama does

He reacts to the Kunai, but what happens when Tobirama and a clone attack Gai from the front and the back? He can't get them both. What happens when Gai attacks a clone, poofs it, only for Tobirama to use the Kunai to warp to his blindside? What's he going to do then? Him having just completed an attack only makes it harder for him to return to a neutral stance, ready to attack again.

Hes unlikely to get completely surrounded when the moment the first attack is initiated he either counterattacks and poofs the clone,
or simply runs around it and does the same,

tobiramas kunai is still reacted, and the intel is full here, which is important to be considered since guy would already be anticipating tobirama to attack thus allowing him to either evade the attack or be wary of anything thats coming, which enables him to counterattack quicker

when he evades the kunai in the first place, then there isnt a way for him to get blindsided, since tobiramas could only telepoort to where their markings are, and with them being at a certain distance to guy just allows him to stay safe or simply overwhelming them

If they all spread out in completely different areas, Gai isn't fast enough to go in all those separate directions and blitz them before they can toss a Kunai. That's just pure overestimation of Gai's speed right there.

tossing a kunai is only helping them get close to guy,
its not helping them land their blows when they are still physically inferior to him,

then theres the fact

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, so that only makes things worse,

guy isnt fast enough to go all the different directions sure, but hes still fast enough to take out some of the clones before they spread out too much, since they still require their shunshin to place their markings

using asakujaku can also work here, especially when the multiple punches are suitable to prevent the clones from spreading out

Not to mention he can mark a Kunai and throw it, which pretty much puts the final nail in the coffin of this strategy. Once he's spread his markings around, he'll be able to evade Hirudora considering it can't hit the whole area at once
If he can't spread his mark then sure, but he can..so no.

All depends on how quickly the clones are taken care off,

there is also the fact that guy can get to tobiramas blind side and immediately execute a hirudora thus catching him before he teleports, with clones out of the picture this can be plausible
guy getting to tobiramas blind side is more probable than viceversa

and if guy does get completely surrounded, by all the tobiramas in the battlefield, then not seeing how hirudora isnt a GG here seeing how all the tobiramaas would be caught and killed

 

[Kagustuchi]

Could go either way. Giving it to Tobirama a few times more than Gai

- Gai has the speed advantage in movement and striking speed. Tobirama should be able to react and get away with Hiriashin, but he shouldn't engage in CQC without his Edo Tensei near and multiple markings around for evasion.

- Gai has the speed to evade Gojo, but without intel he'll never see it coming.

 

[Haizaki]

Actually I see Tobirama winning more times due to FTG versatility with clones as well but it would be a tough one.

 

[Selan]

Guy wins this high diff

--superior reflexes and striking speed means that guy is the one landing the blows. So engaging him in CQC is resulting in tobirama getting obliterated

--GKF is not doing shit, not when Guy has more than enough speed to laugh at it, and evade it with ease, GKF being a directional attack also allows guy to move behind tobirama and slam him with a gated kick

--guy then eventually lands a hirudora and kills him

This, basically.

 

[KidGamer65]

If I'm correct, we're assuming Gai would be surrounded by clones with Kunai all around him right? that means there'd be Kunais on both sides of the battlefield(In front and behind)?

Yup.

Ok you actually gave good points regarding this strategy...Though I'd say the gamble is if Tobirama himself appears in front of Gai and gets hit by AT, then his clones disperse before they can actually mark and hit Gai from behind. I think he'd have to learn from the event of the first scenario(Sideways strategy) to actually counter Gai. If Gai evades the first attempt and manages to use AT on one of the Kunai flooded areas Tobirama decides to teleport to, that's very risky.

The bold was pretty much what I was thinking, though there's no way Tobirama will take a direct hit from Hirudora. If he has Kunai set up near Gai (for offense) and Kunai set up around different points of the battlefield (for defense) even if he teleports to Gai and the latter evades and uses Hirudora, Tobirama has multiple points he can go to, and if they are all at separate ends of the field, Gai won't be able to tag all of them.

If Tobirama teleports to the other side opposite to where Gai used AT. The Kunai's on the other side would be completely destroyed considering AT's range and Gai would then have a solid idea of where to be attacking next. He can fire off another one towards that side while Tobirama and the rest won't be able to teleport to the other side unless they use Shunsin

That doesn't count the Kunai and Edo Tensei that he has set up in other areas of the battlefield, which act as checkpoints for him to teleport to in case he's about to get struck by Gai's attack. He'd be screwed if all his Kunai were in Gai's attack range, but they aren't, so he's good.

Though I'd admit it's a high difficulty fight for both sides..If Gai uses AT in quick successions on both sides of the battlefield flooded with Kunais, he can possibly win as using Shunsin to the other side means they might still get caught up in the explosion. If they try to get to Gai's front, he can use Asakujaku as they're coming at him. It really depends.

The battlefield is a wide area, he'd need to fire 4 Hirudora's in extremely quick succession at 4 different areas of the battlefield if he wants to tag Tobirama, and that doesn't even include Hirudora's travel time. There's no way that he'll get Tobirama before he can teleport to one end, and then set up another escape route by tossing Kunai at an area where Hirudora won't be hitting, like closer to Gai, or maybe in the air.

The intel is full here, and tobirama could only tag guy through the use of his own physical striking speed, which is well below guys,
especially when he was unable to tag even RT Madara despite getting to his blind side

He didn't use clones, nor did he have any markings set up for escape like he would have here.

the utility of FTG is good and all, but what do you mean about guys blind side? he still reacts, and strikes before tobirama and his clones, so no matter how you look at it, guy would be the one landing the blows before tobirama does

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If Gai gets caught in a similar position, he won't be able to hit Tobirama despite being faster than him physically. Ay is physically faster than Minato, yet Minato managed to get his back and was about to take him out (Not really though, lol)

And that was without clones, not saying it'll go just like that though, because Gai's movements are faster, and he isn't completely linear like Ay.

So no, being faster doesn't automatically mean that the slower opponent won't tag you, especially when the slower opponent can teleport, and has clones on his side.

Hes unlikely to get completely surrounded when the moment the first attack is initiated he either counterattacks and poofs the clone,
or simply runs around it and does the same,

tobiramas kunai is still reacted, and the intel is full here, which is important to be considered since guy would already be anticipating tobirama to attack thus allowing him to either evade the attack or be wary of anything thats coming, which enables him to counterattack quicker

Him counter attacking isn't the issue, how he'll counter attack is the issue.

when he evades the kunai in the first place, then there isnt a way for him to get blindsided, since tobiramas could only telepoort to where their markings are, and with them being at a certain distance to guy just allows him to stay safe or simply overwhelming them

Then they repeat the process, not to mention Gai is going to have to attack if he wants to win since he's strictly CQC.

tossing a kunai is only helping them get close to guy,
its not helping them land their blows when they are still physically inferior to him,

Which only matters if Tobirama attacks him upfront, by himself, with zero escape routes. If being physically superior was all you needed to defeat Hiraishin users, then Minato would have gotten spanked by Ay.

then theres the fact

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, so that only makes things worse,

Too slow against Juubito. This is Ay we are talking about.

guy isnt fast enough to go all the different directions sure, but hes still fast enough to take out some of the clones before they spread out too much, since they still require their shunshin to place their markings

As long as some are spread, Tobirama's achieved his goal.

using asakujaku can also work here, especially when the multiple punches are suitable to prevent the clones from spreading out

If they all spread out in different directions, Asa Kujaku won't work since it's not a 360 degree attack.

All depends on how quickly the clones are taken care off,

there is also the fact that guy can get to tobiramas blind side and immediately execute a hirudora thus catching him before he teleports, with clones out of the picture this can be plausible
guy getting to tobiramas blind side is more probable than viceversa

Except Gai isn't fast enough to blitz Tobirama let alone blitz him and then take him out with Hirudora, not when he can react to Juubito. He'd easily teleport, and getting to his blindside isn't going to matter when Tobirama can teleport and can sense. He'll know Gai is there (even w/o sensing) and he'll be able to evade (despite being in a disadvantageous situation)

and if guy does get completely surrounded, by all the tobiramas in the battlefield, then not seeing how hirudora isnt a GG here seeing how all the tobiramaas would be caught and killed

Like I posted to Evani. He spreads markings/Kunai in the area where they are fighting, and far away from said area, so if Gai uses Hirudora, he can teleport away from it.

 

[Narutimate Storm]

Gai not faster than Ei at all. Gai taijutsu movement and taijutsu speed much greater than Ei.

At very minimum, V2 Ei and 7G Ei are similar level. But feet speed and shunshin go to Ei :devil:

 

[Nattana]

Except Gai isn't fast enough to blitz Tobirama let alone blitz him and then take him out with Hirudora, not when he can react to Juubito. He'd easily teleport, and getting to his blindside isn't going to matter when Tobirama can teleport and can sense. He'll know Gai is there (even w/o sensing) and he'll be able to evade (despite being in a disadvantageous situation)

Isn't 7th gate Shunshin enough to blitz or at least pressure Tobirama to the point where he would eventually get hit?

 

[Beans2]

I'd like to see this matchup in an official debate.