Tobirama Senju vs Tsunade, Kakashi and Gai

[Slug Princess Tsunade]

Tobirama would win

And how?

 

[Omnipotent]

And how?

He wasn't the Nidaime Hokage, the second-best of the Senju clan during its prime (and the best of the Senju clan after Hashirama's death), the strongest in the village during the First Shinobi World War (when it was full of Uchiha and presumably Senju), and a notable S/T user (as stated by the Yondaime Hokage himself; he states that Obito's S/T surpasses both his and "Nidaime-sama"'s S/T, meaning Obito > Minato >= Tobirama in terms of S/T) for nothing, you know.

 

[ElectricClover]

No, the ENTIRE battle suffered power scaling differences. Oro's version of Edo Tensei was still not complete to its full potential, and as such Hiruzen was able to match the Senju Bros. He had Enma, a Kage-level taijutsu fighter, a fighting style unknown to the brothers, and intimate familiarity with AT LEAST Tobirama's techniques. He also had Shiki Fuuin, and that served him well enough. If Hiruzen fought against Oro's incomplete Senju combo in part 2, he would still have won.



It was incomplete, and Orochimaru improved it. AT MOST, he should be able to summon a Hashirama on the level shown against Hiruzen, adjusted for power differences. But not adjusted as far as you seem to think. If Old Hiruzen can deal with the Edo Senju Bros, these three can deal with an Incomplete Edo and a real one.

On the other hand it's entirely possible that Tobirama's Edo Tensei simply CAN'T be used to summon high-level ninja at their full potential. Perhaps it summons hordes of genin-level opponents? We just don't know.

In any case, he has no sacrifice, no genetic material save his own, and prep time wasn't specified in the scenario. He probably can't even summon ANYONE.



Not every S/T is teleportation. We have no evidence AT ALL that Tobirama can teleport. Kamui is hard if not impossible to avoid without having Kamui yourself (even Minato wouldn't have been able to avoid it if Obito had been serious). Saying a completely undemonstrated S/T would be able to escape Kamui when FTG wouldn't have been enough had Obito been serious is just not rational.

Kuchiose is an S/T. Edo Tensei is an S/T. Not saying it's the only S/T Tobirama could use, but it's definitely a possibility. A far likelier one than that he can teleport on the level of FTG without even using superkunai.



Gai was battling BEFORE using Hirudora for quite a while. He'd already been fighting for the past few days, not least on the same day, against the Jinchuuriki, where he used Asa Kujaku. A single Hirudora has NEVER been enough to tire him out.

Tsunade is in two pieces right now, yet she's about to heal the Kages. Five of them. From lethal injuries. Of course, if she dies halfway through the first one, then that's that. I somehow doubt it, though. If she's not exhausted from fighting the likes of Madara, woozy from massive blood-loss, chakra-depleted from fighting the likes of Madara...

She'd heal Gai's Gate damage EASILY, is what I'm saying.



Oh he's not brilliant, but he doesn't need to be. He can fight someone from watching the way they shift their weight: Gai is peerless within his chosen field. His "stupidity" seems to work out pretty well for him; Kisame was VERY annoyed by his "inability" to remember his name, and annoyance makes you sloppy. You don't survive to be a ninja of Gai's level by making mistakes in battle.

Hirudora has overcome extremely powerful chakra constructs every time it's been used; Kisame, the "Tailless Bijuuu" used his single strongest technique to counter, Madara's Complete Susano'o vanished and he was unable to continue the battle for a whole issue. Whether or not he would have been killed is irrelevant: Hirudora took him out, just like Kisame. If it lands, Tobirama is beaten. Unless Tobirama posesses a defense more powerful than Madara's Susano'o and can immediately counter Kakashi and Tsunade's attacks.



Water clones are pretty much solely useful for water techniques, being so much weaker than, say, shadow clones. They'd be easily taken out by any of Tobirama's opponents in hand to hand, and en masse by techniques of Asa Kujaku's calibre.

Gai wouldn't be exhausted by Morning Peacock, he was able to use Hirudora afterwards both times the technique has been shown, as well as extended fighting bothe before and after in the newest case. And here, he has Tsunade.



She's been shown capable to react fast enough to bat MADARA'S Katon jutsu right out of the air. She's not exactly helpless in the face of Tobirama's overwhelming might:

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Hashirama was universally considered superior to Tobirama, and Tsunade has several similarities in fighting style to Tobi's elder brother. She can heal OTHERS, though, and is stronger, but can't use Mokuton.



The thing is, Tsunade can serve as a chakra battery for Kakashi just as easily as she can a healing station for Gai. The Eternal Rivals with something like three times their normal endurance = Good luck, Tobirama.



No, he can't. No proof. At all. Gai's speed seemed to serve him well enough against Kisame. Kisame has unique Water Jutsu of chakra-absorbing properties, and chakra-reserves on the level of a Bijuu. If anything, Tobirama's Suiton should be SMALLER in scale than Kisame's.



Well he CAN use it five or so times, even after extended combat, several Raikiri and variations, and at least one shadow clone.

And Tsunade gave some of her Senju-level chakra-reserves to Oonoki, with impressive results: He takes out 25 Susano'o clones in ONE ATTACK. Tsunade can grant Kakashi the ability to use Kamui pretty freely in this battle.



Low Kage-level? That's underrating them. Tobirama's techniques are Suiton, in all likelyhood of a smaller scale than Kisame's, incomplete Edo Tensei, and an unknown S/T which may very well BE Edto Tensei. It's just not enough.



The as-yet-still-living team have, at least two of them, excellent teamwork, and Tsunade is pretty useful in any sort of team. Even if Tobirama can summon Hashirama, I give it to the living group 7 or 8/10. Without him, the most likely scenario in any case, it's closer to completely guaranteed that they'd win.

If you are suggesting that Hiruzen could defeat the current, edo Senju bros I would both have to adamantly disagree and question your awareness of their abilities.

Yes, Tobirama's ET is very murky territory. But I still believe that if he had even a part 1 edo Hashirama he could beat these three opponents. If you are right and ET would simply be unworkable for him in this battle, then I previously stated 6/10 imo for the trio.

Minato directly related Tobi's teleportation s/t and Tobirama's s/t. He would not do that if Tobirama's s/t was summoning. And that coupled with the fact that s/t is defined enough for us to extrapolate, it is almost sure that Tobirama could teleport, and therefore avoid kamui, which is slower based on size and distance.

Saying that Gai has never been tired out from a single hirudora is just blatantly incorrect. Every time he is literally unable to move and every touch sends him into intense pain. I don't care if he used asakujaku once, he can use hirudora after that, but not again without more chakra and healing. And the reason why I say it would be unlikely for Tsunade to replenish it, though she certainly has the ability to do so, is because I doubt Tobirama would give her a chance to.

Tobirama isn't Kisame. Kisame and Gai were both lower intelligence. Tobirama is high vs Gai's lower. He's not getting tricked. Kisame's strongest jutsu was a ninjutsu absorber and Gai used taijutsu, obviously hirudora would beat it so that means nothing. And including Kisame's strength only reinforces hirudora's weakness because it still allowed him to fight. Like I said, Tobirama getting hit by hirudora is not the end because Gai isn't smart and Tobirama has water clones, so my guess is he hits a copy.

Yes, the peacock works well on clones but he can always make a few more. And they are valuable, because they can do water prisons.

We don't know how fast the katon were going so we can't judge reaction; I was just making the point that Tsunade always tanks or deflects, never avoids, in any case.

Like I've said many times Tobirama can launch enough offense: water clones, massive water jutsus, perhaps ET, to prevent Tsunade from sitting down and healing either of her teammates enough so that they'd be useful again.

You yourself brought up the proof that Tobirama can teleport, Minato's words. Tobirama has senju level chakra and is the best suiton user. That means, yes, his suitons are on a larger scale than Kisame's.

That's jinton, my friend, the best jutsu in the manga. Now that still doesn't change that Kakashi can't spam kamuis left and right, which impairs his side.

Low Kage level is not underrating them, it's changing the title of Kage to average. As for Tobirama's techniques, he has the most massive and extensive suiton, likely operational ET, teleportation, clones, sensing, etc, etc. He is definitely on another level though not a sure win or perhaps even a close one vs these opponents.

Now saying they could beat Hashirama and Tobirama 7/10 I don't think anyone else would agree with, even if you may be right about the trio beating Tobirama (though I'd call it close).

 

[Omnipotent]

If you are suggesting that Hiruzen could defeat the current, edo Senju bros I would both have to adamantly disagree and question your awareness of their abilities.

Yes, Tobirama's ET is very murky territory. But I still believe that if he had even a part 1 edo Hashirama he could beat these three opponents. If you are right and ET would simply be unworkable for him in this battle, then I previously stated 6/10 imo for the trio.

Minato directly related Tobi's teleportation s/t and Tobirama's s/t. He would not do that if Tobirama's s/t was summoning. And that coupled with the fact that s/t is defined enough for us to extrapolate, it is almost sure that Tobirama could teleport, and therefore avoid kamui, which is slower based on size and distance.

Saying that Gai has never been tired out from a single hirudora is just blatantly incorrect. Every time he is literally unable to move and every touch sends him into intense pain. I don't care if he used asakujaku once, he can use hirudora after that, but not again without more chakra and healing. And the reason why I say it would be unlikely for Tsunade to replenish it, though she certainly has the ability to do so, is because I doubt Tobirama would give her a chance to.

Tobirama isn't Kisame. Kisame and Gai were both lower intelligence. Tobirama is high vs Gai's lower. He's not getting tricked. Kisame's strongest jutsu was a ninjutsu absorber and Gai used taijutsu, obviously hirudora would beat it so that means nothing. And including Kisame's strength only reinforces hirudora's weakness because it still allowed him to fight. Like I said, Tobirama getting hit by hirudora is not the end because Gai isn't smart and Tobirama has water clones, so my guess is he hits a copy.

Yes, the peacock works well on clones but he can always make a few more. And they are valuable, because they can do water prisons.

We don't know how fast the katon were going so we can't judge reaction; I was just making the point that Tsunade always tanks or deflects, never avoids, in any case.

Like I've said many times Tobirama can launch enough offense: water clones, massive water jutsus, perhaps ET, to prevent Tsunade from sitting down and healing either of her teammates enough so that they'd be useful again.

You yourself brought up the proof that Tobirama can teleport, Minato's words. Tobirama has senju level chakra and is the best suiton user. That means, yes, his suitons are on a larger scale than Kisame's.

That's jinton, my friend, the best jutsu in the manga. Now that still doesn't change that Kakashi can't spam kamuis left and right, which impairs his side.

Low Kage level is not underrating them, it's changing the title of Kage to average. As for Tobirama's techniques, he has the most massive and extensive suiton, likely operational ET, teleportation, clones, sensing, etc, etc. He is definitely on another level though not a sure win or perhaps even a close one vs these opponents.

Now saying they could beat Hashirama and Tobirama 7/10 I don't think anyone else would agree with, even if you may be right about the trio beating Tobirama (though I'd call it close).

Oh man. I totally missed this.

 

[Salad]

Team 2 low-med difficulty. We have hardly any info on Tobirama.

 

[Omnipotent]

Team 2 low-med difficulty. We have hardly any info on Tobirama.

I guess you're right because I'm not in the mood to debate

 

[Slug Princess Tsunade]

Team 2 low-med difficulty. We have hardly any info on Tobirama.

This.

 

[EliteKakashi]

Putting 1 guy up against the greatest medic ever, arguably the smartest character in the manga with a 1 shot 1 kill technique and a guy who just knocked Susanoo-activated Madara on his ass with just his 2nd most powerful technique isn't very intelligent.

The matchup only gets worse when the biggest claim to fame for Tobirama is an imperfect Edo Tensei, which would require him summoning someone who is willing to fight for him and would require him having a sacrifice on hand. Past that, his biggest claim to fame is using a b-rank suiton without a water source...something one of his opponents in this battle(Kakashi) has done as well. There's his space time ninjutsu prowess..but we have no clue what he was actually capable of with that.

 

[Omnipotent]

Putting 1 guy up against the greatest medic ever, arguably the smartest character in the manga with a 1 shot 1 kill technique and a guy who just knocked Susanoo-activated Madara on his ass with just his 2nd most powerful technique isn't very intelligent.

The matchup only gets worse when the biggest claim to fame for Tobirama is an imperfect Edo Tensei, which would require him summoning someone who is willing to fight for him and would require him having a sacrifice on hand. Past that, his biggest claim to fame is using a b-rank suiton without a water source...something one of his opponents in this battle(Kakashi) has done as well. There's his space time ninjutsu prowess..but we have no clue what he was actually capable of with that.

We can agree to disgaree

 

[shelke]

Team two would win this easily. Tobirama has shown no speed feats to fight on equal grounds with Gai who is proficient at taijutsu. He probably would over-come Kamui by using his suiton technique on the warp point, but he won't be able to hit Kakashi as he's a sharingen user. Tsunade can not only back up the team with her medic skills, but can summon Katsuya into the battle and evoke her immortality technique as well. This is a low-mid difference win for team two.

P.s: What bothers me the most is the difference in complexion between the two brothers. Did their mother have two lovers?

 

[ElectricClover]

Putting 1 guy up against the greatest medic ever, arguably the smartest character in the manga with a 1 shot 1 kill technique and a guy who just knocked Susanoo-activated Madara on his ass with just his 2nd most powerful technique isn't very intelligent.

The matchup only gets worse when the biggest claim to fame for Tobirama is an imperfect Edo Tensei, which would require him summoning someone who is willing to fight for him and would require him having a sacrifice on hand. Past that, his biggest claim to fame is using a b-rank suiton without a water source...something one of his opponents in this battle(Kakashi) has done as well. There's his space time ninjutsu prowess..but we have no clue what he was actually capable of with that.

I wouldn't exactly call creating edo tensei, being the best suiton user ever, and being able to teleport feeble claims to fame, but you're entitled to your opinion. It just seems to me that you listed the useful skills of team 2's characters and then the useful skills of Tobirama, and they ended up with the same amount even though it's 1v3. Hmmmm.

Team two would win this easily. Tobirama has shown no speed feats to fight on equal grounds with Gai who is proficient at taijutsu. He probably would over-come Kamui by using his suiton technique on the warp point, but he won't be able to hit Kakashi as he's a sharingen user. Tsunade can not only back up the team with her medic skills, but can summon Katsuya into the battle and evoke her immortality technique as well. This is a low-mid difference win for team two.

P.s: What bothers me the most is the difference in complexion between the two brothers. Did their mother have two lovers?

lol Hashirama probably just spent more time out in the sun building Konoha while Tobirama worked on making techniques in his basement.

 

[EliteKakashi]

I wouldn't exactly call creating edo tensei, being the best suiton user ever, and being able to teleport feeble claims to fame, but you're entitled to your opinion. It just seems to me that you listed the useful skills of team 2's characters and then the useful skills of Tobirama, and they ended up with the same amount even though it's 1v3. Hmmmm.

Edo tensei is great. He needs a sacrifice though.
Maybe he is the best suiton user. Only feat he has though is using a b-rank suiton without a water source. Kakashi has done that too.
Teleport? When has Tobirama ever been said to have the ability to teleport?

You pit him 1v1 against any of these characters, basing off feats alone, he would get beat(without a sacrifice for edo-tensei). He would need a sacrifice to use Edo Tensei for this fight to even be a debate. Otherwise, a couple decent suiton techniques isn't gonna cut it.

If you really want to turn this in to a "compare their useful skills", it's just gonna look even worse for Tobirama. Because team 2 has sharingan mastery, raiton mastery, suiton on the same level that Tobirama has shown, a doton user, a medic with chakra enhanced strength and a summon who can restore chakra and spit acid, and a person with mastery of the 8 Gates.

That's not even all of their skills, and that alone blows Tobirama's feats out of the water, given he's lacking a sacrifice here.

 

[ElectricClover]

Edo tensei is great. He needs a sacrifice though.
Maybe he is the best suiton user. Only feat he has though is using a b-rank suiton without a water source. Kakashi has done that too.
Teleport? When has Tobirama ever been said to have the ability to teleport?

You pit him 1v1 against any of these characters, basing off feats alone, he would get beat(without a sacrifice for edo-tensei). He would need a sacrifice to use Edo Tensei for this fight to even be a debate. Otherwise, a couple decent suiton techniques isn't gonna cut it.

If you really want to turn this in to a "compare their useful skills", it's just gonna look even worse for Tobirama. Because team 2 has sharingan mastery, raiton mastery, suiton on the same level that Tobirama has shown, a doton user, a medic with chakra enhanced strength and a summon who can restore chakra and spit acid, and a person with mastery of the 8 Gates.

That's not even all of their skills, and that alone blows Tobirama's feats out of the water, given he's lacking a sacrifice here.

All I'm saying is, you can't sneeze at edo tensei. It's been said in the manga Tobirama is the best suiton user. Let's not bring fanboyism into it and say Kakashi's his equal in that regard. It is easy to tell that Tobirama can teleport because Minato directly compared his s/t to Obito's s/t, strongly suggesting that they could both travel through space like Minato himself could. Tobirama would utterly and completely decimate any of these three 1v1 and saying otherwise reveals either a personal bias, incomprehension of the 2nd's skill level, or a departure from sound logic. Thankfully I am not alone in this belief.

Granted 3v1 is a bit much for Tobirama; I believe my opinion was 6/10 for team 2 earlier depending on ET limitations. In the case of comparing techniques, I was merely pointing out that you failed to put Tobirama in a bad light because you brought up one ability of each of his opponents, then three of his which were largely better than those you said for team 2. Feel free to revise your list, though.

As for the last, I don't think you know how ET works. One prepares their edo beforehand, with DNA and a sacrifice, but if they have done so-- like in the case of every edo summoning we've seen in the manga so far whether Oro or Kabuto-- then the edo only takes an instant to summon. The only question is the amount or skill of Tobirama's edos considering his was called 'imperfect.'

 

[Tazzilla88]

All I'm saying is, you can't sneeze at edo tensei. It's been said in the manga Tobirama is the best suiton user. Let's not bring fanboyism into it and say Kakashi's his equal in that regard. It is easy to tell that Tobirama can teleport because Minato directly compared his s/t to Obito's s/t, strongly suggesting that they could both travel through space like Minato himself could. Tobirama would utterly and completely decimate any of these three 1v1 and saying otherwise reveals either a personal bias, incomprehension of the 2nd's skill level, or a departure from sound logic. Thankfully I am not alone in this belief.

Granted 3v1 is a bit much for Tobirama; I believe my opinion was 6/10 for team 2 earlier depending on ET limitations. In the case of comparing techniques, I was merely pointing out that you failed to put Tobirama in a bad light because you brought up one ability of each of his opponents, then three of his which were largely better than those you said for team 2. Feel free to revise your list, though.

As for the last, I don't think you know how ET works. One prepares their edo beforehand, with DNA and a sacrifice, but if they have done so-- like in the case of every edo summoning we've seen in the manga so far whether Oro or Kabuto-- then the edo only takes an instant to summon. The only question is the amount or skill of Tobirama's edos considering his was called 'imperfect.'

Tell me about how Tobirama beats Kakashi 1v1
or Gai
or Tsunade

His Edo-tensei really isn't a question as we don't know who he had, how capable his edo tensei's were, and he would necessarily need prep time which hasn't been given him.
Could you bring me the page were Tobirama is called the best Suiton user. The statement must not be biased, which would include by breadth of knowledge of the person stating it. Also pay attention to past tense and if it was said when it was said. Those are all relevant factors.

 

[ElectricClover]

Tell me about how Tobirama beats Kakashi 1v1
or Gai
or Tsunade

His Edo-tensei really isn't a question as we don't know who he had, how capable his edo tensei's were, and he would necessarily need prep time which hasn't been given him.
Could you bring me the page were Tobirama is called the best Suiton user. The statement must not be biased, which would include by breadth of knowledge of the person stating it. Also pay attention to past tense and if it was said when it was said. Those are all relevant factors.

Ha ha! My friend, I don't have to show you how Tobirama beats any of them. That's pretty much a given; now, I invite you to prove otherwise, seeing as how you have the minority view.

Exactly: all those questions about ET just mean that how well Tobirama does in the battle depends on his edo tensei. If he could summon his brother Hashirama then he wins for sure. If all he can summon is two fodder then he loses.

I looked for it in the manga but frankly that's a lot of material to cover. In any case it says he's the greatest suiton user on the wiki and I believe in the published version (Naruto volume 13) it's said when he's fighting Hiruzen. But this fact has been established and widely accepted for some time now, even after Kisame. If you want to start questioning what Kishi puts in the manga by saying facts are biased and so on then nothing can be taken at face value.

 

[Tazzilla88]

Ha ha! My friend, I don't have to show you how Tobirama beats any of them. That's pretty much a given; now, I invite you to prove otherwise, seeing as how you have the minority view.

Exactly: all those questions about ET just mean that how well Tobirama does in the battle depends on his edo tensei. If he could summon his brother Hashirama then he wins for sure. If all he can summon is two fodder then he loses.

I looked for it in the manga but frankly that's a lot of material to cover. In any case it says he's the greatest suiton user on the wiki and I believe in the published version (Naruto volume 13) it's said when he's fighting Hiruzen. But this fact has been established and widely accepted for some time now, even after Kisame. If you want to start questioning what Kishi puts in the manga by saying facts are biased and so on then nothing can be taken at face value.

Minority opinion? Poll says otherwise.
What you are trying to say is those who shout the loudest are correct and that's not true.

Furthermore, you initially use a logical fallacy called appeal to popularity to say it is a given that Tobirama beats them
What I am pointing all with the edo tensei argument is 1. His Edo tensei is incomplete meaning we cannot guage the power levels of any person he may summon. Meaning even if he could summon his brother he may have a powerlevel lower than Yamato. 2. We don't know who he can summon.
Nextly if you can't find where it calls him the best suiton user it didn't happen. You're attempting to use a logical fallacy called the Bandwagon fallacy. And yes who says something would definitely matter for instance Jiraiya saysthat no one is able to stand shoulder to shoulder with Tsunade in terms of combat and medical prowess (Viz translation chapter 158 page 4) do you hold that as true? Chouza says Tsunade sama will never lose referencing her fight against Madara being unaware of Madara's full power. (Chapter 577 page 8).
You made the claim so it's your duty to back it up or don't make the claim. Try using a few less fallacies.

 

[shelke]

lol Hashirama probably just spent more time out in the sun building Konoha while Tobirama worked on making techniques in his basement.

Tobirama was a freaky shut-in then? lol

 

[TheBrightSide]

Rape by Kakashi Tsunade and Gai

 

[sasori345]

Anyone from team 2 can solo Tobirama.

 

[Omnipotent]

Anyone from team 2 can solo Tobirama.

Take that back