Tobirama Senju vs Tsunade, Kakashi and Gai

[ElectricClover]

Minority opinion? Poll says otherwise.
What you are trying to say is those who shout the loudest are correct and that's not true.

Furthermore, you initially use a logical fallacy called appeal to popularity to say it is a given that Tobirama beats them
What I am pointing all with the edo tensei argument is 1. His Edo tensei is incomplete meaning we cannot guage the power levels of any person he may summon. Meaning even if he could summon his brother he may have a powerlevel lower than Yamato. 2. We don't know who he can summon.
Nextly if you can't find where it calls him the best suiton user it didn't happen. You're attempting to use a logical fallacy called the Bandwagon fallacy. And yes who says something would definitely matter for instance Jiraiya saysthat no one is able to stand shoulder to shoulder with Tsunade in terms of combat and medical prowess (Viz translation chapter 158 page 4) do you hold that as true? Chouza says Tsunade sama will never lose referencing her fight against Madara being unaware of Madara's full power. (Chapter 577 page 8).
You made the claim so it's your duty to back it up or don't make the claim. Try using a few less fallacies.

No, no. You misunderstand. It is the majority opinion that Tobirama beats Tsunade 1 on 1, beats Kakashi 1 on 1, beats Gai 1 on 1. I was saying that it was a given that Tobirama vs only one person from team 2 it should be obvious that he wins. I've already said that I believe Tobirama loses against all three if his ET works the way I think it does.

1 and 2 agreed. That is why Tobirama loses in my opinion. My only point concerning ET is that if Tobirama can summon Hashirama with full power that the Senju brothers win.

Wrong. What you are using is a fallacy. "If you can't find it then it doesn't exist" is not a sound argument. The reason I can't find it may be because of my own incompetence or laziness. Because I didn't bring this piece of evidence into question my last post is not evidence that it doesn't exist, merely that I didn't bring it into my last post for whatever reason. I would ask that before you throw around phrases like 'logical fallacy' you inspect your own reasoning.

Let me just explain that I have the piece of evidence in the form of a book, which I cannot exactly show you. And I am just too lazy to go searching through hundreds of pages of manga to find one phrase that vindicates Tobirama's suiton superiority. Granted this weakens my argument, but in my opinion only slightly seeing as how the piece of information is almost universally accepted. You may, however, expect that I will be able to provide the evidence in time.

Now, I don't hold with your belief that we may twist the manga however we wish. Yes, there are inconsistencies, but if we start writing off out-right statements in the manga there really is no limit. I could renounce some fact because I say the person who said it was biased, or because the circumstances were unusual, or because all the information was not revealed to them. But frankly I could do this with any fact in the entire manga, with varying levels of success, but I could do it nonetheless.

Now, if characters in the manga prove that things other characters say are false, then I can believe that. There is also that more recent statements trump older statements. But the thing is, the readers cannot decide what is true and what is not. The author does that. If I show you that it is written that Tobirama is the best suiton user then it is true.

The second thing you brought up is an example of Madara proving Chouza wrong. The first thing you brought up is I'm sure referring to something within set parameters or is proven wrong later on. Either that, or it is true. Tsunade has been shown to have the greatest medical prowess and she is the strongest character physically. Perhaps you are merely reading Jiraiya's statement wrong. Anyway, I don't mean to quibble over specific instances; my point was that 'interpreting' manga facts is much too dangerous.

 

[UchihaInza]

i think the kakashi now is beating tobirama 1v1

 

[Omnipotent]

i think the kakashi now is beating tobirama 1v1

Naw dog

 

[Unorthodox]

kakashi solos

 

[USSJ Future Trunks]

Naw dog

how does tobirama win?

Tobirama can launch enough offense: water clones,

how do you know he can use suiton bunshins?

massive water jutsus

they were tiny

It is the majority opinion that Tobirama beats Tsunade 1 on 1, beats Kakashi 1 on 1, beats Gai 1 on 1.

hes featless so no he would be ripped apart in seconds till he does something

Tobirama vs only one person from team 2 it should be obvious that he wins.

with crappy suiton, featless s/t, and crappy swords?

Kisame and Gai were both lower intelligence

kisame loves fighting but hes actually genius level in analysing opponents and seeing what they are strong at. thats insulting

Oh come on, you've gotta give me Kakashi's low stamina. Sure it's better now, but it's crap, everyone knows that.

no its far superior to most shinobi now. he spammed raikiri, clones AND kamui in the same fight. there was a big uproar because it didnt make much sense for kakashi

I would not say that Gai's speed is massive and it certainly didn't help him against Kisame when Kisame flooded the field with water. Plus

was gai using gates then?

He fodderizes the 5 Kage.

impossible since you cannot fodderise someone. your either fodder or you arent.

Plus, I hate to keep bringing up the same point, but Tobirama can teleport.

did it ever truly help him? hes never won a fight besides an already tired and wounded izuna

Tobirama can not only fake out his enemies with the clones,

hes never been shown using clones. you literally pulled that out of your ass. if your going to make shit up then kakashi has katon

Oh, I wouldn't say water clones are fodder. And I don't think Zabuza's really match up to Tobirama's.

clones are universal. they are either strong or weak. and water clones are 10% of the orignal

I would say the three of them are low Kage level, a distinction which has only come about because Tsunade and Mei are such weak Kages

tobirama and hiruzen are the weakest kages so it exists because of them

Yeah, Tobirama just revives his late brother Hashirama

where did he get the body?

it still counts and if we actually saw why he was so highly hyped to actually fight and stand against 20 shinobi on Kin/Gin's level, then he could actually win.

there are no "20 ninjas on kinkakus level". stop typing bullshit

liked how you put that Tobirama is one of the high level Senju's and actually compared with his brother which is usually overlooked and puts him at an even higher level

when was he put on the same pedastal as hashirama? even madara didnt care

That answers your question.

not really as it was just a copy/paste off of naruto wikia. a fake fanmade website

Either way, she just doesn't evade strikes.

irrelevant in this fight anyway since he has nothing that can hurt her

Tobirama for obvious reason, this is stupid.

you mean no reason

the second-best of the Senju clan during its prime

all senjus besides the brothers are fodder

Now there is extensive proof in the manga that Tsunade really can't dodge 'for shit.'

wrong. she was comparable to A in speed, and batted madaras katons away while mei was too slow with her suiton

himself; he states that Obito's S/T surpasses both his and "Nidaime-sama"'s S/T, meaning Obito > Minato >= Tobirama

thats not what minato said. he didnt claim tobirama is his equal

It's been said in the manga Tobirama is the best suiton user

no it has not

n any case it says he's the greatest suiton user on the wiki

because thats a reliable source right?

I believe in the published version (Naruto volume 13)

nope. its not there at all. and if it was, the anbu cannot be considered infallibly correct because he did not see kisame fight bee

But this fact has been established and widely accepted for some time now, even after Kisame

wtf? when was it a fact? and widely accepted does not make it fact. kisame by feats and by hype is leaps and bounds above tobirama till he shows something combat wise

. It is easy to tell that Tobirama can teleport because Minato directly compared his s/t to Obito's s/t, strongly suggesting that they could both travel through space like Minato himself could.

tobiramas ftg doesnt have enough feats and likely has severe limitations which caused him to be beaten to near death by two 6 tailed kyuubi brothers

Tobirama would utterly and completely decimate any of these three 1v1

hes shown nothing to suggest he can. featless FTG, featless suiton, featless edo tensei. garbage. worthless. gai punches him before he can do anything

he has the most massive and extensive suiton,

actually his suiton is smaller thna kakashi's great waterfall suiton vs zabuza

Tobirama can teleport, Minato's words

he has space time ninjutsu. we dont know how it fully works or its limitations

Tobirama has senju level chakra

99% of senjus arent anything

That's jinton, my friend, the best jutsu in the manga

kamui is the best jutsu

 

[EZQ]

Tobirama = high kage lvl

Kakashi = med high kage lvl

Gai = med kage level

Tsunade = med kage level

Kamui = death

really? tobirama gets roflstomped hard