Tobirama Is Right, Hashirama Is Naive

[Waltz]

I agree, Itachi like Shisui nullifies Tobirama's ideals on the Uchiha, however as far as his MS abilities being the strongest, I have to disagree.

1.) Sasuke's Blaze Release has been canonically deemed superior to his Amaterasu

2.) Kotoamatsukami has been canonically deemed superior to his Tsukuyomi.

3.) Itachi's Susano is seperated by possession not its power & even it pales in comparison to Madara's.

4.)Then there is Kamui, which is possibly the most OP MS power yet.

shodaimeicon:

Yet Danzo defeated Shisui, A defeated Sasuke, Kakashi was scared of orochimaru, Minato bested obito. Not to mention neiter of them were deemed anything near invincible. A>b>c logic doesn't work in the NV.

You are aware that he has the sage's weapon(s) right? In terms of his MS abilities (Tskuyomi, Amateratsu and Sussano), it is debatable that his are the most powerful.

What you said in the bold literally proved both my and Tobrima's statement. Whether he was full of regret of not, with his growing hatred, his Sussano and MS abilities became more powerful. When Obito saw Kakashi killing Rin, he awakened the Magenkyo which proves that the more hatred an Uchiha inherits, the more powerful their eyes become. We don't even know if Itachi had hate, so the validity of that defense is kinda null

PS: When I said family I wasn't talking about Itachi

Merely your speculation, though do you dislike itachi?

Tobirama generalized the uchiha, thats my point. Itachi proved that his theory isn't always applicable.

 

[Sexy Steel]

PuppyDogGeneral destoryed this thread

tobirama is to blame, his hatred for the uchiha was what blinded him

 

[Bluntss]

Tobirama is the casuse of:

-> The uchiha revolt
-> The uchiha massacre
-> Sasuke and itachi loosing their family (started their feud and resulted in death)
-> Itachi's name to be stained
-> Madara to leave the village (resulting in him meeting obito, so technically he's the cause of naruto's parents death)
-> Hiruzens death (creating the edo tensei)
-> Danzo to get his hands on those sharingan
-> Skillful ninja like shisui to die
-> the current shinobi war

Yet you praise him for his strict political measures and biased idea of the uchiha based on hear-say? Hashirama and Madara had compiled much better ideas for the village and shinobi world.

Could not agree more. If Tobirama just gave up his hatred, maybe peace would finally be obtained. Why bother making an alliance, if you still carry on your hatred

 

[NaruSasuRival]

Tobirama is the casuse of:

-> The uchiha revolt
-> The uchiha massacre
-> Sasuke and itachi loosing their family (started their feud and resulted in death)
-> Itachi's name to be stained
-> Madara to leave the village (resulting in him meeting obito, so technically he's the cause of naruto's parents death)
-> Hiruzens death (creating the edo tensei)
-> Danzo to get his hands on those sharingan
-> Skillful ninja like shisui to die
-> the current shinobi war

Yet you praise him for his strict political measures and biased idea of the uchiha based on hear-say? Hashirama and Madara had compiled much better ideas for the village and shinobi world.

You are plain wrong. Tobirama predicted the Uchiha revolt, the Itachi's reaction, and Sasuke's emobit. These were predicted by Tobirama long time ego. He only delayed these things because of his oath to his brother. Otherwise, he would have placed them in quarantine when he could.

Can you tell me the number of people Madara has killed directly and undirectly? During his life and even after his death?

 

[Founding Fire Shadow]

Care to explain?

Tobirama believed that the Uchiha thrived on hate as it made them stronger & thus could not be trusted, however Uchihas like Itachi & Shisui, not only devoted their lives to peace, but they devoted themselves to the Leaf over their own clan, in stark contradiction to what Tobirama would believe.shodaimeicon:

 

[Waltz]

You are plain wrong. Tobirama predicted the Uchiha revolt, the Itachi's reaction, and Sasuke's emobit. These were predicted by Tobirama long time ego. He only delayed these things because of his oath to his brother. Otherwise, he would have placed them in quarantine when he could.

Can you tell me the number of people Madara has killed directly and undirectly? During his life and even after his death?

Nonsense.

Don't sugar coat it; it's rather clear that Tobirama only sees the uchiha as a threat and enemy [

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] and made the same mistake the elder son of the sage also made, thinking that power was the key to peace [

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] [

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] but just ended up starting a chain reaction of war and violence. Tobirama is clearly biased and would go as low as to accept rumor as fact [

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] "The more they are full of hatred, the more their eyes are powerful". Itachi proved him wrong. He's in the spotlight and doesn't want to take the blame, making petty excuses. Madara knew Hashirama would fail to deal with him as he is too soft lacks dignity [

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] and allows tobirama to have his way. I'll ingnore the red as it is irrelevant to the topic. You should stop trying to stick up for him, not only Hashirama is upset with him for his actions which brought about current events but also Orochimaru clarified:

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[Founding Fire Shadow]

Yet Danzo defeated Shisui, A defeated Sasuke, Kakashi was scared of orochimaru, Minato bested obito. Not to mention neiter of them were deemed anything near invincible. A>b>c logic doesn't work in the NV.


Merely your speculation, though do you dislike itachi?

Tobirama generalized the uchiha, thats my point. Itachi proved that his theory isn't always applicable.

That was my point, Itachi was more skilled & deadlier than most of the shinobi you listed, but it was not because he had the strongest MS powers, do not mistake me downplaying his specific jutsus as downplaying Itachi as a whole.

I think Itachi is an amazing character an hold him in high esteem, what makes him so deadly is his intellect not his eyes, also I agree with you about Tobirama's ideals being flawed.shodaimeicon:

 

[Waltz]

That was my point, Itachi was more skilled & deadlier than most of the shinobi you listed, but it was not because he had the strongest MS powers, do not mistake me downplaying his specific jutsus compared as downplaying Itachi as a whole.

I think Itachi is an amazing character an hold in high esteem, what makes him so deadly is his intellect not his eyes, also I agree with you about Tobirama's ideals being flawed.shodaimeicon:

I said i don't like to side track. My point once more:

Itachi was filled with love and possessed the potentially strongest MS techniques thus far, which nullifies Tobirama's ideals.

 

[HadouKage]

Yet Danzo defeated Shisui, A defeated Sasuke, Kakashi was scared of orochimaru, Minato bested obito. Not to mention neiter of them were deemed anything near invincible. A>b>c logic doesn't work in the NV.


Merely your speculation, though do you dislike itachi?

Tobirama generalized the uchiha, thats my point. Itachi proved that his theory isn't always applicable.

Merely speculation? Tobi (Kamui), Sasuke (Blaze Release), Itachi (Tskuyomi) and Madara (Sussano) have a MS they specialize in which is back by manga facts. You stating that Itachi has the best MS abilities is merely speculation.

One exception doesn't speak for a whole. While Itachi and Shushi could have been different from their clan, that doesn't mean that all of the Uchiha didn't do as so. The same can be said for the senju as Hashi longed for peace while his father wanted to continue fighting. While I agree with you that Tobria was generalizing, it is a manga fact that the more hate and Uchiha has, the more powerful their eyes become.

 

[Omnislash X SageMode]

Tobirama is the casuse of:

-> The uchiha revolt
-> The uchiha massacre
-> Sasuke and itachi loosing their family (started their feud and resulted in death)
-> Itachi's name to be stained
-> Madara to leave the village (resulting in him meeting obito, so technically he's the cause of naruto's parents death)
-> Hiruzens death (creating the edo tensei)
-> Danzo to get his hands on those sharingan
-> Skillful ninja like shisui to die
-> the current shinobi war

Yet you praise him for his strict political measures and biased idea of the uchiha based on hear-say? Hashirama and Madara had compiled much better ideas for the village and shinobi world.

guess i dont really have much to say...i agree with this, alot! tobirama seems cool but there more i find out about him the more i DISLIKE him! but even I can tell tobirama is no where NEAR danzo's douchebag level (which is well over 9000!!) i just wish the 2nd hokage would act more like his brother..but thats just my feelings lol

 

[SIR HERDERP PRESIDERP SDO]

Hashirama the Naive

 

[Waltz]

Merely speculation? Every uchiha has a MS they specialize in which is back by manga facts. You stating that Itachi has the best MS abilities is merely speculation.

One exception doesn't speak for a whole. While Itachi and Shushi could have been different from their clan, that doesn't mean that all of the Uchiha didn't do as so. While I agree with you that Tobria was generalizing, it is a manga fact that the more hate and Uchiha has, the more powerful their eyes become. The same can be said for the senju as Hashi longed for peace while his father wanted to continue fighting

Link me a scan even implying the sage had Totsuka and Yata, anything else is merely your conjecture. Manga, specifically madara (black zetsu) portrays Itachi as being invincible with the MS techs he wields; surely it only puts them overall stronger than any others unless you can locate conflicting statements?

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One exception doesn't speak for the whole? The only uchiha's we've ever seen out of the possible hundreds/thousands to such extents are:

Obito
Madara
Itachi
Sasuke

So you may have back your futile argument. Shishui also was motivated by his love and concern for both the village and clan, making an attempt to suit both by using Koto on Danzo yet he possessed the most powerful genjutsu, Kotoamatsukami. You should just stop.

 

[Founding Fire Shadow]

I said i don't like to side track. My point once more:

Itachi was filled with love and possessed the potentially strongest MS techniques thus far, which nullifies Tobirama's ideals.

Like I said, I agree, but its the fact that he desired peace & he put his loyalty to the Leaf above his loyalty to his clan, the strength of his eyes is irrelevant as Itachi had much pain to fuel his power in place of hate as both are said to feed the power of their dojutsu.shodaimeicon:

 

[HadouKage]

Link me a scan even implying the sage had Totsuka and Yata, anything else is merely your conjecture. Manga, specifically madara (black zetsu) portrays Itachi as being invincible with the MS techs he wields; surely it only puts them overall stronger than what any other unless you can locate conflicting statements?

You must be registered for see images

One exception doesn't speak for the whole? The only uchiha's we've ever seen out of the possible hundreds/thousands to such extents are:

Obito
Madara
Itachi
Sasuke

So you may have back your futile argument. Shishui also was motivated by his love and concern for both the village and clan, making an attempt to suit both by using Koto on Danzo yet he possessed the most powerful genjutsu, Kotoamatsukami. You should just stop.

Ah, misread the manga. Though it is not of the sage, going off a characters saying doesn't make it true. It's all about feats and as we seen from feats of Kotoamta, tell me, how does Yata and Totsuka defend against that?


No it doesn't, there was about to be a whole coup during Hiruzen's reign. It is because of Obito's love for Rin why he wants to activate the Infinite Tskuyomi. It is because of Madara's love for his brother that he wants the same, it is because of Madara's love for his brother that he despises the senju. So yes, one exception doesn't make for a whole

 

[Waltz]

Ah, misread the manga. Though it is not of the sage, going off a characters saying doesn't make it true. It's all about feats and as we seen from feats of Kotoamta, tell me, how does Yata and Totsuka defend against that?


No it doesn't, there was about to be a whole coup during Hiruzen's reign. It is because of Obito's love for Rin why he wants to activate the Infinite Tskuyomi. It is because of Madara's love for his brother that he wants the same, it is because of Madara's love for his brother that he despises the senju. So yes, one exception doesn't make for a whole

Your missing the point.

The statement is an overall comparison of techniques. Shisui lacked amaterasu and susano'o, Sasuke's Tsukuyomi and enton blade is inferior to itachi's Tsukuyomi and Totsuka, Sasuke has nothing that can get pass yata. Obito lacked Amaterasu and Susano'o, Madara's MS

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has nothing on Itachi's complete susano'o, totsuka and Yata.


Madara's dreamworld has nothing to do with izuna but solely his view of whats best for mankind [

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]. I am aware of obito. My point is, Tobirama is wrong for generalizing the uchiha.

 

[LordRevan]

well duh.

Everyone should know Hashirama's attitude is somewhat like Hiruzen's, They don't like to use force to solve problems and they're to kind to do what needs to be done at times, even if it was for the best.

Best way to look at it is

Hashirama = hiruzen

tobirama = Danzo

in terms of personality

In terms of actions

Hashirama = Wise man

Tobirama = hot-headed youngster

 

[HadouKage]

Your missing the point.

The statement is an overall comparison of techniques. Shisui lacked amaterasu and susano'o, Sasuke's Tsukuyomi and enton blade is inferior to itachi's Tsukuyomi and Totsuka, Sasuke has nothing that can get pass yata. Obito lacked Amaterasu and Susano'o, Madara's MS

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has nothing on Itachi's complete susano'o, totsuka and Yata.


Madara's dreamworld has nothing to do with izuna but solely his view of whats best for mankind [

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]. I am aware of obito. My point is, Tobirama is wrong for generalizing the uchiha.

No, I'm not at all

Idc for character statements as we know that in the series, character statements tend to contradict one another. You are pairing abilities through biased decisioning. Unless I see a feat/manga scan showing that Koto can be countered, then it remains debatable. Obito only had Kamui and some Katon variants before gaining the Rinne, yet he is one of the strongest people in the series. What counter does Itachi have Kamui? Hmm I wonder, none? :|

I have already partly agreed with your statement Tobria should not have generalized. It seems that you are going off track, what Itachi and Izuna's intentions are do not contradict what Tobria was saying. The Uchiha were planning a coup in Hiruzen's reign.

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<--- Here Tobria explains about the type of Love uchiha's have. In this chapter he also explains that when an Uchiha has experienced a "lost love" then their sharigan awakens and through that awaken is from the hate that is arising

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<--- Here he explains that the more hate that is possess in their hearts, the stronger their eyes become.

This has been proven by Sasuke, the main antagonist that is thriving off his hate, so no, Tobria was not wrong

 

[Waltz]

My point isn't to prove that his analysis was wrong; as it has been confirmed on more than one occasion also Kotoamatsukami has no counter. Generalization is my point.

 

[HadouKage]

My point isn't to prove that his analysis was wrong; as it has been confirmed on more than one occasion also Kotoamatsukami has no counter. Generalization is my point.

So obviously Itachi's isn't the best
Other than that I agree

 

[Waltz]

So obviously Itachi's isn't the best
Other than that I agree

Him being the best or not wasn't my point. Overall he has the strongest MS techs hence, he was deemed invincible.