Tobirama is not really different from the clan he's trying so erase at any cost

[staticdash22]

You're speaking with prejudice here. If that's how you see it, and feel about it, that's a fine. It is relative, and up for interpretation. But you can't speak of it as if you're right, and anybody else is wrong. It's this black and white way of thinking that caused the problems in NarutoVerse. Childish people, with childish rationale. There are ALWAYS shades of gray. You refuse to acknowledge that. You feel strongly about your stance on this issue, so you won't even try to see it from the other side's perspective. I really think you should try. If anything, it might make your conviction even stronger. At least you'll be able to debate it better. Looking at BOTH sides of the argument will make your rationale more refined, and legit.

Peacful people do this? How is there a grey are a here? There is no grey area, no justification for causing this

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How is there a grey area here? Tobirama is right IMO, these uchihas are ticking time bombs.

 

[SilverDuck]

The morale of the story is that Tobirama, unable to forgive and look forward, indirectly caused the very thing he tried to desperately to prevent. That's a very common theme in literature, by the way. Exists to teach a lesson. Lesson here is that, had Tobirama been capable of letting it go, and forgiving, things could be very different.

Notice how I said "could", not "would". That is not something I can prove, or that you can disprove. It's speculation, and how you interpret it. That's literature. Nobody's stance on it is wrong, or right. You may feel strongly that the Uchiha are monsters, who got what they deserved, and I can believe that it was a very preventable outcome, and that the head of the village deserves some amount of responsibility.

 

[RasenUchihaChaos]

I stopped reading when you said Uchiha are "innocent people"

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There sure was alot of innocent people in the Alliance headquarters...

Oh and I'll just leave this here...even though it's past hashi's time it still shows what this "innocent" clan can do lol

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:'( R.I.P Neji

What in the heck was that shinobi arent innocent there soldiers the moment u become a shinobi your death may be imminent but i suppoose if that was 5 senju and 1 uchiha boy u say he had it coming

 

[MrSimple]

Before you attack Tobirama, you need to get read of your Uchiha bias. There is one thing that you need to know: Madara's fear of the Senju and Tobirama's behavior towards the uchiha are based on truth.

For Madara, he based his choices on the past and Tobirama's opinions of the Uchiha. The first one is true, but it also expressed Madara's refusal to accept the Senju. It really expressed his desire for revenge, and he even keep bringing forth the fact that his brothers' died as if Hashirama never lost a brother. The second is a denial of his own identity. The truth about the Uchiha and the Uchiha fans is that you all refuse to admit that Tobirama's concerns are real. A true leader cannot play such game as to ignore that the Uchiha can go irrational at any time. Throughout the manga, we have seen it. Madara refused their initial ideal (he and Hashi) thinking of protecting Izuna, and he stupidity led to Izuna's death. Can you explain why Madara let Hashi down in front of his father? Obito, Sasuke, and the whole Sharingan behavior prove that Tobirama is right. The fact that Madara still plan for his revival proves that he is a stupid guy who think he is the only one who can make things happen while actually he were a loser to Hashi in every aspects (wisdom and strength), and was let down by his won clansmen.

Concerning Tobirama, he proved to his brother that he would not harm the Uchiha. Also, during his Hokageship, he proved that his intentions were not to erase the Uchihas as you are saying. Rather, he is wise enough to understand that the Uchihas are not the only people leaving in Konoha. Only a stupid person will let a fool roam with a WMD. Tobirama want to accept the Uchiha, but he does not want to be victims of the Uchiha emotional randomness that have been proven throughout the entire manga.

Besides, Tobirama did not refuse Madara as Hokage. He only said that the village will have to vote. Madara himself confirmed what Tobirama was thinking - that is the Uchiha themselves had the same opinion of Madara as Tobirama. This is because the Uchiha found Madara as a poor leader compare to the Senju brothers.

Truth is that you cannot escape the truth. Sincerely, your analysis is very poor and full of hatred due to your Uchiha fanboyism. Ignoring the Uchiha problem and accusing an honorable leader such as Tobirama is almost ignorance of all the details given by Kishi.

Did you miss the part where I imply that Madara entrusted his clan to Hashirama indirectly? So because Madara knows how to express his ache we've to blame him? So perhaps you're saying that Tobirama desire something else? I'm not sure who's on denial when your brother is ready to sacrifice his life for the enemy, for the sake of the desire peace.
And no, they won't went irrational on whim as you wish for I presume. But if you suppress them no wonder. I cannot blame anyone that stands for his ideals. Thus and Uchiha is not your regular clan you can toy with so if you want peace with them shom them that you actually respect your ally and not mind torture them?

I presume you have never read that ANBU was originally made for 1 simple purpose to watch over this clan if they suddenly bring everything on their own and retake the authority of the village.
Tobirama has never ever for once think about to change his attitude about this clan which is his all own fault and many people suffered.

About "Tobirama proved his brother...' is all wrong and won't even start arguing, that's nonsense and flawed statements.

Of course Tobirama refused to see Madara as Hokage one day, what are you reading, he still don't believe that anything can change because he's consumed of the idea that Uchiha cannot be trusted.

Don't talk about my analysis please because yours are futile...

 

[SilverDuck]

Peacful people do this? How is there a grey are a here? There is no grey area, no justification for causing this

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How is there a grey area here? Tobirama is right IMO, these uchihas are ticking time bombs.

You are a child! I'm not going to sit here and argue with a child. You feel the way you do about this because of the perspective it was written. You read from the perspective of Senju=good, Uchiha=bad. Since you're not capable of critical thought, or speculation, you won't be able to read any deeper. You are saying my OPINION is wrong, which is impossible. Your opinion is just as valid as my opinion. It's opinion, NOT fact.

You don't want to read deeper, fine. Maybe you don't possess the ability to. You're basically saying that, in war, one side is right. The other is evil. That's the kind of dangerous thinking that country heads try to create. Strengthen your resolve by making you feel justified. You don't see it from the other side's perspective. From their point of view, we are the evil monsters, and they are good. It's the same shit as the villages here. A common theme. We've seen PLENTY of characters from every nation doing horrible, atrocious things. We have also seen them doing wonderful, righteous things. I'm not going to post manga scans. I possess the vocabulary I need to express myself. I'm sorry that you do not. But I could easily find scans of the people you perceive to be "good and righteous" doing horrible, evil shit. You won't see it as evil, because you're incapable of critical thought. You only see black and white. You refuse to acknowledge anything different from your own point of view.

Maybe you can't understand what I say? Is it too difficult? Am I using words you don't understand? You the opinion is absolutely, 100% CORRECT!!!! There is nothing wrong with it. Because it is an opinion, NOT fact. The same way my opinion is valid, 100% I'm not claiming to be right. I'm voicing my opinion. You're the one claiming to be factual here, when that would be impossible. You're unable to even accept the fact that somebody else might have a different opinion than you. You feel like I'm somehow attacking you by voicing my own opinion. That's the way children think, man. I acknowledge your opinion. I don't claim mine is right, or yours is wrong. It is OPINIONS. You following me at all?

 

[SilverDuck]

Did you miss the part where I imply that Madara entrusted his clan to Hashirama indirectly? So because Madara knows how to express his ache we've to blame him? So perhaps you're saying that Tobirama desire something else? I'm not sure who's on denial when your brother is ready to sacrifice his life for the enemy, for the sake of the desire peace.
And no, they won't went irrational on whim as you wish for I presume. But if you suppress them no wonder. I cannot blame anyone that stands for his ideals. Thus and Uchiha is not your regular clan you can toy with so if you want peace with them shom them that you actually respect your ally and not mind torture them?

I presume you have never read that ANBU was originally made for 1 simple purpose to watch over this clan if they suddenly bring everything on their own and retake the authority of the village.
Tobirama has never ever for once think about to change his attitude about this clan which is his all own fault and many people suffered.

About "Tobirama proved his brother...' is all wrong and won't even start arguing, that's nonsense and flawed statements.

Of course Tobirama refused to see Madara as Hokage one day, what are you reading, he still don't believe that anything can change because he's consumed of the idea that Uchiha cannot be trusted.

Don't talk about my analysis please because yours are futile...

You are, thus far, the only person with the necessary logical thought process to understand that things aren't black and white. That there is always another side to everything, and to claim that either is wrong is ludicrous. Way to look at both sides of the coin. You will be the only person I have +prepped so far. I refuse to give good rep to people who can't think.

 

[SilverDuck]

Thanks for all the positive rep points, guys. I guess it's unfair for me to judge the majority based on the close-minded posts of the minority.

 

[staticdash22]

You are a child! I'm not going to sit here and argue with a child. You feel the way you do about this because of the perspective it was written. You read from the perspective of Senju=good, Uchiha=bad. Since you're not capable of critical thought, or speculation, you won't be able to read any deeper. You are saying my OPINION is wrong, which is impossible. Your opinion is just as valid as my opinion. It's opinion, NOT fact.

You don't want to read deeper, fine. Maybe you don't possess the ability to. You're basically saying that, in war, one side is right. The other is evil. That's the kind of dangerous thinking that country heads try to create. Strengthen your resolve by making you feel justified. You don't see it from the other side's perspective. From their point of view, we are the evil monsters, and they are good. It's the same shit as the villages here. A common theme. We've seen PLENTY of characters from every nation doing horrible, atrocious things. We have also seen them doing wonderful, righteous things. I'm not going to post manga scans. I possess the vocabulary I need to express myself. I'm sorry that you do not. But I could easily find scans of the people you perceive to be "good and righteous" doing horrible, evil shit. You won't see it as evil, because you're incapable of critical thought. You only see black and white. You refuse to acknowledge anything different from your own point of view.

Maybe you can't understand what I say? Is it too difficult? Am I using words you don't understand? You the opinion is absolutely, 100% CORRECT!!!! There is nothing wrong with it. Because it is an opinion, NOT fact. The same way my opinion is valid, 100% I'm not claiming to be right. I'm voicing my opinion. You're the one claiming to be factual here, when that would be impossible. You're unable to even accept the fact that somebody else might have a different opinion than you. You feel like I'm somehow attacking you by voicing my own opinion. That's the way children think, man. I acknowledge your opinion. I don't claim mine is right, or yours is wrong. It is OPINIONS. You following me at all?

FACEPALM. DOUBLE FACEPALM.

You're one of those devil's advocates. Trying to hrow justification around for everything. Ok, there were chances for the uchiha down the road to mend their relationship with konoha but they didn't take it. I grow weary of you people. Just because your actions are understandable doesn't mean it's excused. Just because obito's point of view is different doesn't MAKE HIS ACTIONS ANY BETTER !!!!!!! Get your own morals and values, because there is a clear right and wrong line. The grey area is an area of understanding. It doesn not paint any of your actions in a better light fool. I'm beginning to think you have no idea what you're saying.

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[SilverSlick]

You're wrong. It has been hinted at, and now stated, that the Uchiha clan a trust, or lack thereof, stemmed from their position in the village. Tobirama himself admitted to making them police to keep them close, to watch them. Kepp your enemies closer, right? He did that because he did not trust them. Even though they hadn't done a thing wrong at that point. He wasn't capable of letting go of the past, and he took that with his rule of the village. None of the Uchiha had done anything wrong. They even ostracized Madara, refusing to stand behind him. They Vere FIERCLY loyal to the village and they wanted peace at least as much as the Senju.

I am not saying that Tobirama is a monster, or anything like that. You re choosing to read it that way. I'm saying that Tobirama's character is a direct contrast of his brother's character. While Has hi was able to leave everything at the door, to start fresh, with peace, Tobirama was not. He still had his deep grudge, and distrust. He was paranoid, even. The way he incessantly studied them, and watched them like a hawk. That's paranoia, if I ever saw it. That's what pushed the clan away. Slowly, but surely. They realized that they were treated like second class citizens. So they withdrew. They started doing shit in private, hiding themselves from public eye. They began to distrust the village as a hole. Eventually leading to them planning to do EXACTLY what Tobirama thought they might. A coup.

Do you get where I'm going? I'm saying that Tobirama's worst fear was realized BECAUSE of his own prejudice. Had he treated them like everybody else, they would have never felt the way they needed to feel to plan the coup.

This is speculation, of course. I obviously can't tell the future, or predict non existing outcomes, but it is pretty clearly the idea that Kishi is pushing for. And it makes perfect sense. Try reading my posts without thinking of an argument until after you're done reading. You will read it, and come up with arguments with each sententence. Try reading it all before arguing. Maybe you'll feel a bit differently. There are ALWAYS a 3rd side to every story, and there are ALWAYS shades of gray.

You're looking at this from one side, something you accuse me of doing. From the outside, that's what it would look like, but don't assume that I don't read the manga as much as you. Yes, Tobirama gave them that spot to watch them, that's undeniable, but you're totally ignoring the fact that he did it to give them an actual place in the village, more precisely a job that they would be productive at.

What you're also ignoring is Madara's blatant paranoia and assumptions that were soon to be proven false. You totally disregarded my first post in this thread about how the Uchiha were never exterminated. Instead you opted to falsely assume that I was looking at it from one side, something you inadvertently did as well.

Madara's own paranoia is what led him to leave and follow the path of the darkness and you're completely ignoring this part. Madara's actions have indirectly caused most of the disasters in the story. This includes the 9 tails attack, Pain's invasion, and the current war. All of this would have been avoided if Madara would have stayed. This paranoia was fueled by what Tobirama said and his own preconceptions. Preconceptions were proven to be false.

To your first point, you're only looking at one factor. Of course, their predicament was one factor, but the 9 tails attack was also a major factor and that has been hinted at as well.

When I say looking at it from one side, I don't mean that literally because its obvious thats not what you're doing. What I mean is, that you're not really taking stuff into account.

 

[GofOfNothing]

FACEPALM. DOUBLE FACEPALM.

You're one of those devil's advocates. Trying to hrow justification around for everything. Ok, there were chances for the uchiha down the road to mend their relationship with konoha but they didn't take it. I grow weary of you people. Just because your actions are understandable doesn't mean it's excused. Just because obito's point of view is different doesn't MAKE HIS ACTIONS ANY BETTER !!!!!!! Get your own morals and values, because there is a clear right and wrong line. The grey area is an area of understanding. It doesn not paint any of your actions in a better light fool. I'm beginning to think you have no idea what you're saying.

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No. You are the one who does not want to accept what this guy is saying. He understands well what he means but your are just ignoring it and trying to make it look absurd with all of your pics you post in here.
Fact is that you have no answer to what this guy says. So you just use the childish way and ignore it.
You are talking about justifying someones actions. But only about the actions of the Uchiha and not e.g. Tobirama.

Tobiramas actions were too paranoid (about the uchiha) and this is a fact. He was obsessed with the Idea that Uchiha=Evil.
But the most people here wont accept the fact that this obsession of Tobirama brought the Uchiha's hate.
Of course Tobirama had acceptable reasons. But what he did is just far too much. He gave the Uchihas a reason to be evil.

 

[6ari8]

If Tobirama truly wanted to annihilate the Uchiha he would've chosen Danzo as the next Hokage, not Hiruzen for obvious reasons.

 

[Great Sage of Uchiha]

I stopped reading when you said Uchiha are "innocent people"

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There sure was alot of innocent people in the Alliance headquarters...

Oh and I'll just leave this here...even though it's past hashi's time it still shows what this "innocent" clan can do lol

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:'( R.I.P Neji

1. F#ck neji, lol like seriously the dude had barely no manga time and i felt no sorrow when he was killed

2. I like the way your only posting picture of them at war. There are no innocent in war especially if your involved in it, Just like Madara stated " HQ was the brains" they aren't innocent , they are at war and in war anyone can die at any moment.

 

[RasenUchihaChaos]

If Tobirama truly wanted to annihilate the Uchiha he would've chosen Danzo as the next Hokage, not Hiruzen for obvious reasons.

if he chose danzo that would have been against what harashima wanted hashi wanted sarutobi to be hokage 1 day as shown when sarutobi is talking to them while looking at the village

 

[6ari8]

if he chose danzo that would have been against what harashima wanted hashi wanted sarutobi to be hokage 1 day as shown when sarutobi is talking to them while looking at the village

Are you implying that he did everything as Hashirama wanted? I mean he could've changed his mind and chose Danzo for his ideals you know.

 

[MrSimple]

If Tobirama truly wanted to annihilate the Uchiha he would've chosen Danzo as the next Hokage, not Hiruzen for obvious reasons.

Danzo doesn't have much screen time, though that he has never had any problems with them from what we can see in his flashbacks.
Besides Tobirama already sympathized Hiruzen and was ready to elect Hiruzen for the next one.
Danzo's case is strange cause he was the head of ANBU and that organization was suppose to watch over them but he really didn't have any anger towards them unless they try to overcome the Leaf and take the authority which was inevitable to happen when you suppress them.

 

[Insidious Smile]

Grammar please .

 

[NaruSasuRival]

You're speaking with prejudice here. If that's how you see it, and feel about it, that's a fine. It is relative, and up for interpretation. But you can't speak of it as if you're right, and anybody else is wrong. It's this black and white way of thinking that caused the problems in NarutoVerse. Childish people, with childish rationale. There are ALWAYS shades of gray. You refuse to acknowledge that. You feel strongly about your stance on this issue, so you won't even try to see it from the other side's perspective. I really think you should try. If anything, it might make your conviction even stronger. At least you'll be able to debate it better. Looking at BOTH sides of the argument will make your rationale more refined, and legit.

When there is evidence of a murder or crime, we don't need more evidence anymore to condamned the culprit. Rather, any additional evidence will be used to decide on his sentence. Madara was guilty from the start, and everything Hashi was doing was compromise with him to get peace. This is Hashi did not want neither to kill him, nor to let him kill others. It was pure compromise from hashi. My problem here is that most of you who are asking us to see from others' perspective are not fair. You are actually making a one sided analysis, and you want me to buy it, which I will not do. If you read my reasoning, I considered the two sides, and the conclusion is clear even from today's chapter. Madara also needed to prove that he can be trusted by working with Hashirama for the good of the village. Tobirama and the uchiha did not trust him, and he confirmed their decision by letting Hashirama down. It seems clear to me that Madara think that as long as he is not the one in charge, he cannot agree with Hashi. He was selfish, malicious, and was trying to take advantage of Hashirama's gentleness. Fortunately, Tobirama was there to make his true self appears.

Go back and read all the flashbacks, and you will see the evidences:

1. Madara and Izuna rejected the peace truce proposed by Hashi. Tobirama did not even intervene, and at this time, you could have seen that Bitsuma even did not interfere.

2. Madara threaten Hashimara afterward, as if they were meeting for the first time. Seriously, can you grab anything about his behavior.

3. Hashi said they were superior, and he actually was sending request for truce to the Uchiha. I believe that Madara and Izuna were the ones causing the war after the death of the two sides' fathers. Thus they are the one to be blamed.

4. Madara is the one who led the Uchiha to war against an old friend who was pleading for truce.

Seriously, it is clear that the Uchiha are guilty because of Madara, and as I said, Tobirama is pointing only the truth. A normal person wouldn't place his life in the hands of Madara: this is what Tobirama and the uchiha did.

Note: There is one piece of intel remaining - that is how Madara got Izuna's eyes. Please be ready for this because I think Itachi has proven to be trustworthy. If it comes out that Madara forced Izuna, I wonder what you will say. Again, I think that Madara will never change his mind because of the way he got Izuna's eyes, and the reason he got them.

 

[MrSimple]

When there is evidence of a murder or crime, we don't need more evidence anymore to condamned the culprit. Rather, any additional evidence will be used to decide on his sentence. Madara was guilty from the start, and everything Hashi was doing was compromise with him to get peace. This is Hashi did not want neither to kill him, nor to let him kill others. It was pure compromise from hashi. My problem here is that most of you who are asking us to see from others' perspective are not fair. You are actually making a one sided analysis, and you want me to buy it, which I will not do. If you read my reasoning, I considered the two sides, and the conclusion is clear even from today's chapter. Madara also needed to prove that he can be trusted by working with Hashirama for the good of the village. Tobirama and the uchiha did not trust him, and he confirmed their decision by letting Hashirama down. It seems clear to me that Madara think that as long as he is not the one in charge, he cannot agree with Hashi. He was selfish, malicious, and was trying to take advantage of Hashirama's gentleness. Fortunately, Tobirama was there to make his true self appears.

Go back and read all the flashbacks, and you will see the evidences:

1. Madara and Izuna rejected the peace truce proposed by Hashi. Tobirama did not even intervene, and at this time, you could have seen that Bitsuma even did not interfere.

2. Madara threaten Hashimara afterward, as if they were meeting for the first time. Seriously, can you grab anything about his behavior.

3. Hashi said they were superior, and he actually was sending request for truce to the Uchiha. I believe that Madara and Izuna were the ones causing the war after the death of the two sides' fathers. Thus they are the one to be blamed.

4. Madara is the one who led the Uchiha to war against an old friend who was pleading for truce.

Seriously, it is clear that the Uchiha are guilty because of Madara, and as I said, Tobirama is pointing only the truth. A normal person wouldn't place his life in the hands of Madara: this is what Tobirama and the uchiha did.

Note: There is one piece of intel remaining - that is how Madara got Izuna's eyes. Please be ready for this because I think Itachi has proven to be trustworthy. If it comes out that Madara forced Izuna, I wonder what you will say. Again, I think that Madara will never change his mind because of the way he got Izuna's eyes, and the reason he got them.

What are you reading is the question right now. Madara had enough of that and when Hashirama almost killed himself he stopped him and help him to accomplish his dream.
The one that had always been consumed of the idea to continue that cycle of hatred seems to be Tobirama.
And because he had bad luck Madara heard his poor speech in front of Hashirama so...

I don't wanna go any further because I have found very flawed arguments throughout this post.

 

[DeDoll]

Its useless to talk with Stupid Tobirama fans. they cant understand that Tobirama was bad person.

 

[SilverDuck]

Who said Tobirama was a bad person? I certainly did not. It's clear that 98% of members a just pick and choose parts of the post they want to acknowledge, then ignore the rest. I believe you subconsciously block everything else out. You don't actually consider a post with a different view. Instead of thinking while you read, you're all so obsessed with coming up with a counter argument, that it blinds you. It's like the only thing you want to do is one up me, which is not going to happen. At least I showed the respect of actually reading, comprehending, and analyze all of your arguments. None of you are capable of coming anywhere close to my level. When you try that hard, it is obvious that you're not thinking at all. I keep saying that this is a matter of opinion, yet you people keep coming at me like I am insulting or attacking you. Which I have not done. I've been attacked, but I have kept my cool. I have the ability to do so. You're not capable of conversation without it because you have a primitive thought process. I don't know what the **** I was thinking when I thought we were going to have a real discussion on these forums, instead of spamming and trolling. A vast majority of you aren't intelligent enough, your comprehension skills are very lacking, you absolutely refuse any education, and ypmost of you are in middle school and high school. I bet your sub par in that aspect, as well. Point being, do not try me. I showed respect, you stupid ****s did not.