Tobirama is not really different from the clan he's trying so erase at any cost

[MrSimple]

It's not surprising that Itachi died in vain...
Whether Tobirama is a product of their times it's funny how he didn't realize all this time that he was consumed of this idea to persecute another innocent people.

So if we take a look right at this picture

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and

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we can see his numb body. Tobirama never actually accept the idea that they can end that cycle of hatred ever since Hashirama met Madara.
So we can see here that Hashirama is sharing his last words, begging for one last time to spare Madara's life and create their future village together and live in peace.

Do you actually remember what happened? Uchiha were pushed aside. We know that Tobirama feared Madara, his paranoia indirectly helped to increase that pressure so not long ago after Madara left and died as the village thought(even so he didn't) the village was about to be in a civil war. So Itachi sacrificed his life to pretend later that it wasn't in vain even so it was.

So we can say that if Hashirama actually tried to kill himself for the sake of nothing not just that Tobirama won't listen to him but he'd probably torture this clan even more.

All in all the one that pretend like Madara is the greatest threat for the village was enough egoistical to not accept that he was actually the one that wanted to see Uchiha far away from this village and ruined the ally his brother stand for and Madara who was ready to end this cycle.

 

[The Western Wheel]

Amen! Amen!(10 character-rule)

 

[GwemBaba]

<div class="bbWrapper">I think the grounds that Tobirama acted upon we're 100% reasonable.<br /> <br /> I wish he opted for a solution more akin to Hiruzen's way of understanding. <br /> <br /> The problem with the Uchiha would have broken out regardless, I'm seriously interested in Itachi's anti-emo method.</div>

 

[Omnipotent]

He wasn't wrong. Madara, as shown in this chapter, is indeed unpredictable.

 

[staticdash22]

I stopped reading when you said Uchiha are "innocent people"

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There sure was alot of innocent people in the Alliance headquarters...

Oh and I'll just leave this here...even though it's past hashi's time it still shows what this "innocent" clan can do lol

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:'( R.I.P Neji

 

[SilverDuck]

I think that's the exact point... The reason his character exists. To serve a function, obviously. Moral of the story is that, if you cannot accept peace, and trust the people you fight, there will be no peace. Tobirama serves as a counter to Hashirama. Same clan, same age, similar abilities. Then major difference? Hashirama is capable of putting the past behind him, and truly work for a better future. Tobirama hasn't been able to fully let go of the pain the Uchiha caused him. He isn't as strong in character as his own brother. That's why he will make such an enourmas, lasting mistake when he becomes Hokage.

 

[SilverSlick]

Madara was just as or more paranoid than Tobirama, as proven by this chapter. He outright says that he believes the Uchiha will be exterminated under Tobirama's rule. Did that happen? No.

 

[paratise]

Was Tobirama trying to erase them at any cost?

 

[SilverDuck]

Madara was just as or more paranoid than Tobirama, as proven by this chapter. He outright says that he believes the Uchiha will be exterminated under Tobirama's rule. Did that happen? No.

It can be argued that it did happen directly under his rule. Not while he was alive, but still because of the things he did as a hokage. Such as making them the police force to keep an eye on them, as well as the numerous other laws/decrees he passed down in the sole purpose of keeping them closer. All because he couldn't let go of the past, and kept his grudge. Did he intend for what happened to happen? Of course not. He just didn't have the gift of foresight his brother did, and he makes an enourmas mistake because of it. Had Tobirama treated the Uchiha the same as everybody else, the Uchiha would have been just a part of the Leaf as the Sarutobi, and the rest of the clans. Since he couldn't t forgive them, he oppressed them. It was because of this oppression that shit turned out the way it did.

At least try to think more critically. I get that it's a difficult skill to learn, but you'll probably enjoy the things you read even more if you're capable of critical thinking.

 

[MrSimple]

I stopped reading when you said Uchiha are "innocent people"

Spoiler

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There sure was alot of innocent people in the Alliance headquarters...

Oh and I'll just leave this here...even though it's past hashi's time it still shows what this "innocent" clan can do lol

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:'( R.I.P Neji

The point was that both of their clans had to fight each other, they wouldn't intend to do that if they weren't rival clans. So what that happened to his clan also happened to the opposite one. They really had no other choice before Hashirama's resolve appear to change that.

And guess what? Tobirama just don't listen.

 

[sulanis]

Tobirama plays the over cautious role, where as hashirama is too trusting and wants to believe in everyone, and see there best.
Tobirama can't do that, he has to look at the threat and the potential danger. People keep saying that Tobirama was at fault for all this; i disagree.

He knew that the Uchiha were unstable and that they would eventually defect, especially with Hashirama out of the picture. Which they were planning. That's why he gave them such an important role in Village. To give them trust to earn his trust. Trust is earned, not given.

He did he brothers wishes and kept them as part of the village.

Tobirama may see things in a more cautious way then Hashriama, but he still strives for peace.

 

[SilverDuck]

It was even stated how every single Uchiha was fully behind Hashiramaa, and the leaf. Only Madara wavered, not a single Uchiha more. That being the case, they should not have been treated as second class citizens. Tobirama, unable to let go of his grudge, oppressed them. His prejudice caused what happened to happen. Liken it to civil rights in the real world. Do you see women, Chinese, or black people as villains just because they stood up and fought for the rights they should have had all along? Are they villain a for their protesting, and for their rallies? Even more intense groups, like the Black Panthers, are seen as heroes. Very extreme, and a bit violent, but heroes.

The Uchiha wanted the rights everybody else had. It was their god given right to be treated the same. At that point, they fulls backed the Senju leader, even ostracizing their own head for not feeling the same. They never deserved what Tobirama did. They stood up to fight for their rights. How are they wrong?

My point is that terms like "good", and "evil", "right" and "wrong" are relative. All depends on point of view. You see Uchiha as villains for the planned coup? I see them as freedom fighters, giving their lives to make sure their children don't grow up unfairly oppressed.

Get it?

 

[NaruSasuRival]

It's not surprising that Itachi died in vain...
Whether Tobirama is a product of their times it's funny how he didn't realize all this time that he was consumed of this idea to persecute another innocent people.

So if we take a look right at this picture

You must be registered for see links

and

You must be registered for see links

we can see his numb body. Tobirama never actually accept the idea that they can end that cycle of hatred ever since Hashirama met Madara.
So we can see here that Hashirama is sharing his last words, beginning for one last time to spare Madara's life and create their future village together and live in peace.

Do you actually remember what happened? Uchiha were pushed aside. We know that Tobirama feared Madara, his paranoia indirectly helped to increase that pressure so not long ago after Madara left and died as the village thought(even so he didn't) the village was about to be in a civil war. So Itachi sacrificed his life to pretend later that it wasn't in vain even so it was.

So we can say that if Hashirama actually tried to kill himself for the sake of nothing not just that Tobirama won't listen to him but he probably would torture this clan even worse.

All in all the one that pretend like Madara is greatest threat for the village was enough egoistical to not accept that he was actually the one that wanted to see Uchiha far away from this village and ruined the ally his brother stand for and Madara who was ready to end this cycle.

Before you attack Tobirama, you need to get read of your Uchiha bias. There is one thing that you need to know: Madara's fear of the Senju and Tobirama's behavior towards the uchiha are based on truth.

For Madara, he based his choices on the past and Tobirama's opinions of the Uchiha. The first one is true, but it also expressed Madara's refusal to accept the Senju. It really expressed his desire for revenge, and he even keep bringing forth the fact that his brothers' died as if Hashirama never lost a brother. The second is a denial of his own identity. The truth about the Uchiha and the Uchiha fans is that you all refuse to admit that Tobirama's concerns are real. A true leader cannot play such game as to ignore that the Uchiha can go irrational at any time. Throughout the manga, we have seen it. Madara refused their initial ideal (he and Hashi) thinking of protecting Izuna, and he stupidity led to Izuna's death. Can you explain why Madara let Hashi down in front of his father? Obito, Sasuke, and the whole Sharingan behavior prove that Tobirama is right. The fact that Madara still plan for his revival proves that he is a stupid guy who think he is the only one who can make things happen while actually he were a loser to Hashi in every aspects (wisdom and strength), and was let down by his won clansmen.

Concerning Tobirama, he proved to his brother that he would not harm the Uchiha. Also, during his Hokageship, he proved that his intentions were not to erase the Uchihas as you are saying. Rather, he is wise enough to understand that the Uchihas are not the only people leaving in Konoha. Only a stupid person will let a fool roam with a WMD. Tobirama want to accept the Uchiha, but he does not want to be victims of the Uchiha emotional randomness that have been proven throughout the entire manga.

Besides, Tobirama did not refuse Madara as Hokage. He only said that the village will have to vote. Madara himself confirmed what Tobirama was thinking - that is the Uchiha themselves had the same opinion of Madara as Tobirama. This is because the Uchiha found Madara as a poor leader compare to the Senju brothers.

Truth is that you cannot escape the truth. Sincerely, your analysis is very poor and full of hatred due to your Uchiha fanboyism. Ignoring the Uchiha problem and accusing an honorable leader such as Tobirama is almost ignorance of all the details given by Kishi.

 

[Onion Soda]

Tobirama plays the over cautious role, where as hashirama is too trusting and wants to believe in everyone, and see there best.
Tobirama can't do that, he has to look at the threat and the potential danger. People keep saying that Tobirama was at fault for all this; i disagree.

He knew that the Uchiha were unstable and that they would eventually defect, especially with Hashirama out of the picture. Which they were planning. That's why he gave them such an important role in Village. To give them trust to earn his trust. Trust is earned, not given.

He did he brothers wishes and kept them as part of the village.

Tobirama may see things in a more cautious way then Hashriama, but he still strives for peace.

I totally agree

 

[Kurama2012]

where has it been stated that tobirama wanted rid of the uchiha all he did was use there emotions and power for the benefit of the village and if he did want rid of them how come uchiha was eliminated after the 4ths rain when the 3rd came back to power granted 2nd had some trust issues with uchiha but he was able to use the uchiha in a positive way and as a leader and a member of the leaf he cant forget the fact that uchiha go out of control when it comes to thier emotions

 

[SilverSlick]

It can be argued that it did happen directly under his rule. Not while he was alive, but still because of the things he did as a hokage. Such as making them the police force to keep an eye on them, as well as the numerous other laws/decrees he passed down in the sole purpose of keeping them closer. All because he couldn't let go of the past, and kept his grudge. Did he intend for what happened to happen? Of course not. He just didn't have the gift of foresight his brother did, and he makes an enourmas mistake because of it. Had Tobirama treated the Uchiha the same as everybody else, the Uchiha would have been just a part of the Leaf as the Sarutobi, and the rest of the clans. Since he couldn't t forgive them, he oppressed them. It was because of this oppression that shit turned out the way it did.

At least try to think more critically. I get that it's a difficult skill to learn, but you'll probably enjoy the things you read even more if you're capable of critical thinking.

Actually, he had more foresight than Hashirama did. He foresaw how dangerous Madara was. The Kyuubi attack was the instigator of the Uchiha massacre[

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]. You could argue that Obito was lying, but in essence, his words were true.

Also, I'd like to note that there was no evidence of Tobirama actually oppressing them. All he did was give a position that they'd be good at and move them at the edge of the village. You wouldn't want a prison in the middle of the village. Setsuna, who had the will of Madara, actually attempted a coup because of this. He did this because he felt it was somehow unjust.

 

[SilverDuck]

Before you attack Tobirama, you need to get read of your Uchiha bias. There is one thing that you need to know: Madara's fear of the Senju and Tobirama's behavior towards the uchiha are based on truth.

For Madara, he based his choices on the past and Tobirama's opinions of the Uchiha. The first one is true, but it also expressed Madara's refusal to accept the Senju. It really expressed his desire for revenge, and he even keep bringing forth the fact that his brothers' died as if Hashirama never lost a brother. The second is a denial of his own identity. The truth about the Uchiha and the Uchiha fans is that you all refuse to admit that Tobirama's concerns are real. A true leader cannot play such game as to ignore that the Uchiha can go irrational at any time. Throughout the manga, we have seen it. Madara refused their initial ideal (he and Hashi) thinking of protecting Izuna, and he stupidity led to Izuna's death. Can you explain why Madara let Hashi down in front of his father? Obito, Sasuke, and the whole Sharingan behavior prove that Tobirama is right. The fact that Madara still plan for his revival proves that he is a stupid guy who think he is the only one who can make things happen while actually he were a loser to Hashi in every aspects (wisdom and strength), and was let down by his won clansmen.

Concerning Tobirama, he proved to his brother that he would not harm the Uchiha. Also, during his Hokageship, he proved that his intentions were not to erase the Uchihas as you are saying. Rather, he is wise enough to understand that the Uchihas are not the only people leaving in Konoha. Only a stupid person will let a fool roam with a WMD. Tobirama want to accept the Uchiha, but he does not want to be victims of the Uchiha emotional randomness that have been proven throughout the entire manga.

Besides, Tobirama did not refuse Madara as Hokage. He only said that the village will have to vote. Madara himself confirmed what Tobirama was thinking - that is the Uchiha themselves had the same opinion of Madara as Tobirama. This is because the Uchiha found Madara as a poor leader compare to the Senju brothers.

Truth is that you cannot escape the truth. Sincerely, your analysis is very poor and full of hatred due to your Uchiha fanboyism. Ignoring the Uchiha problem and accusing an honorable leader such as Tobirama is almost ignorance of all the details given by Kishi.

You're speaking with prejudice here. If that's how you see it, and feel about it, that's a fine. It is relative, and up for interpretation. But you can't speak of it as if you're right, and anybody else is wrong. It's this black and white way of thinking that caused the problems in NarutoVerse. Childish people, with childish rationale. There are ALWAYS shades of gray. You refuse to acknowledge that. You feel strongly about your stance on this issue, so you won't even try to see it from the other side's perspective. I really think you should try. If anything, it might make your conviction even stronger. At least you'll be able to debate it better. Looking at BOTH sides of the argument will make your rationale more refined, and legit.

 

[staticdash22]

The point was that both of their clans had to fight each other, they wouldn't intend to do that if they weren't rival clans. So what that happened to his clan also happened to the opposite one. They really had no other choice before Hashirama's resolve appear to change that.

And guess what? Tobirama just don't listen.

You really don't listen do you? This is why tobirama said the uchihas are cursed. It doesn't matter if they are peaceful at the moment, once something happens that make them dislike you, you will get another madara. I'll just leave this here...

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Uchihas are "Innocent"

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[SilverDuck]

Actually, he had more foresight than Hashirama did. He foresaw how dangerous Madara was. The Kyuubi attack was the instigator of the Uchiha massacre[

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]. You could argue that Obito was lying, but in essence, his words were true.

Also, I'd like to note that there was no evidence of Tobirama actually oppressing them. All he did was give a position that they'd be good at and move them at the edge of the village. You wouldn't want a prison in the middle of the village. Setsuna, who had the will of Madara, actually attempted a coup because of this. He did this because he felt it was somehow unjust.

You're wrong. It has been hinted at, and now stated, that the Uchiha clan a trust, or lack thereof, stemmed from their position in the village. Tobirama himself admitted to making them police to keep them close, to watch them. Kepp your enemies closer, right? He did that because he did not trust them. Even though they hadn't done a thing wrong at that point. He wasn't capable of letting go of the past, and he took that with his rule of the village. None of the Uchiha had done anything wrong. They even ostracized Madara, refusing to stand behind him. They Vere FIERCLY loyal to the village and they wanted peace at least as much as the Senju.

I am not saying that Tobirama is a monster, or anything like that. You re choosing to read it that way. I'm saying that Tobirama's character is a direct contrast of his brother's character. While Has hi was able to leave everything at the door, to start fresh, with peace, Tobirama was not. He still had his deep grudge, and distrust. He was paranoid, even. The way he incessantly studied them, and watched them like a hawk. That's paranoia, if I ever saw it. That's what pushed the clan away. Slowly, but surely. They realized that they were treated like second class citizens. So they withdrew. They started doing shit in private, hiding themselves from public eye. They began to distrust the village as a hole. Eventually leading to them planning to do EXACTLY what Tobirama thought they might. A coup.

Do you get where I'm going? I'm saying that Tobirama's worst fear was realized BECAUSE of his own prejudice. Had he treated them like everybody else, they would have never felt the way they needed to feel to plan the coup.

This is speculation, of course. I obviously can't tell the future, or predict non existing outcomes, but it is pretty clearly the idea that Kishi is pushing for. And it makes perfect sense. Try reading my posts without thinking of an argument until after you're done reading. You will read it, and come up with arguments with each sententence. Try reading it all before arguing. Maybe you'll feel a bit differently. There are ALWAYS a 3rd side to every story, and there are ALWAYS shades of gray.

 

[GofOfNothing]

You really don't listen do you? This is why tobirama said the uchihas are cursed. It doesn't matter if they are peaceful at the moment, once something happens that make them dislike you, you will get another madara. I'll just leave this here...

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Uchihas are "Innocent"

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Yeah posting that not including the fact that all of this started because "Tobiramas democracy" ...

EDIT: Its like bullying someone because you think he is agressiv and then complain because he became agressiv but do not consider the fact that you are the one who made him agressiv.