Tobi has the Mangekyou Sharigan

[Bigfoot34501]

Tobi proved he is NOT madara. True. THIS IS ALSO MY POINT.


Itachi thinks that the person who helped him in the Uchiha massacre has the MS. This is not Madara (as he assumed) but we found out it is actually TOBI, who is NOT madara. But again, whoever helped him in the massacre (Tobi) Itachi claims that this man has the MS. The 3rd user alive. Thats my point!

I think this entire dispute is because Kishi made a mistake making Danzo's character. I don't think he originally wanted him to have MS, but then changed his mind. I mean we didn't find out until 150+ chapters later that Shisui had MS before he died, meaning Danzo had MS. So when Itachi said this, he was probably referring to himself, Tobi, and Kakashi. And Danzo was an after thought on Kishi's part

 

[Invsblphntm]

what proof do you have that says izuna is still alive, double edged blade bro

I have no proof, but the TC made a rash statement with no evidence saying that Izuna is dead so I corrected him.

 

[Imperius]

pretty good ASSuming

 

[Mugen Tsukyomi]

Itachi said that because he was under the assumption that tobi was madara, that is the biggest flaw in your logic.

 

[ChidoriChimp]

Im pretty sure he was talking about madara but rep for the effort.

 

[TheRealAkatsukiLeader]

Thread title says it all.












THEORY: Tobi has the Mangekyou Sharigan

Spoiler

Just because Tobi has never showed his MS, doesn't automatically mean he doesn't have one. And just because he has never deactivated his sharigan doesn't mean he isn't an Uchiha. These are both ASSumptions.

PROOF: ITACHI said so... "3 people with MS" (not Sharigan)

Spoiler

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Manga 385, page 2



On page 2, after the Uchiha Slaughter, Itachi told Sasuke: "If you can awaken the Mangekyou Sharigan, then there will be THREE PEOPLE who can use it, including myself". Which means someone ALIVE other than Itachi has the MS. If he meant dead OR alive, he would have said more than 3 people. Izuna/Shisui OBVIOUSLY had the MS as well, FYI.

Sasuke describes this 3rd person with the MS as the "Third Uchiha Survivor". Take note that this 3rd person will be an UCHIHA, Itachi later clarifies.

SUPPORTING EVIDENCE: The 3rd person is not Izuna, Kakashi, Danzo or Shisui, the only other known MS Users.

Spoiler

1. At the time of their original conversation, Shisui and Izuna are already DEAD.

2. Kakashi (during the original convo, before Shippuden) did NOT have a MS at the time of this original conversation.

3. Although the 3rd Person that can use the MS could have been referring to Kakashi or Danzo, Sasuke clarifies that Itachi is actually talking about an Uchiha shinobi.
(Note: Itachi/Sasuke assumed that Tobi is an Uchiha from their conversation, specifically that he was Madara). See link below:

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4. If all else fails... Itachi clarifies the 3rd person with MS by saying his name is Uchiha Madara.

ASSUMPTION: Itachi thinks "Tobi" is Uchiha Madara before his death

Spoiler

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In the link above, Itachi says that he was referring to Uchiha Madara, the first person ever to awaken the Mangekyou Sharigan. THIS IS THE PERSON HE SAYS HE DID THE UCHIHA MASSACRE WITH. He does NOT call him "Tobi"... but obviously thinks they are the same person(read on). Again, this is the shinobi he tells Sasuke he completed the Uchiha Massacre with.

1. Immediately after the Uchiha Massacre, Itachi joins "Tobi's" group Akatuski to keep an eye on "him" from the inside. He obviously does not view Madara and Tobi as two different people at this moment.



Note: For people that think Itachi did the Massacre with Madara and not "Tobi" remember these points:


2. Itachi NEVER claims to have worked with BOTH Tobi and Madara, only Madara.

3. Tobi has the wall of Uchiha eyes from the Massacre.

4. Itachi afterwards went to work for "Tobi" FOR SURE in Akatsuki. He says he did this to keep a further eye on MADARA from the "inside". If he viewed Tobi/Madara as different people Itachi would have realized this after joining Tobi's group.

5. Madara was revived with Edo Tensei, and was shocked. This proves that he was DEAD (soul in Pure World) at the time of the Edo summoning, that he died "young" (he has a "young" Edo) and that he had never been previously revived with Edo Tensei. Also, Nagato did NOT revive Madara with his Rinnegan either, which would mean only TOBI was alive during the Uchiha Massacre, not MADARA.

SUMMARY:

Spoiler

1. Itachi says only 3 people can use the MS when talking to Sasuke (see PROOF section). If he meant dead or alive, he would have said more than just 3 people (Izuna, Madara, Shisui, HIMSELF).

2. Itachi says Madara is the person he did the massacre with. He also clarifies that Madara had the MS, and that he was actually the 1st Uchiha shinobi to awaken it.

3. Itachi thinks that Tobi IS Madara. He did the massacre with "Madara" (who is actually TOBI, who has all the Uchiha Eyes) and he joined "Madara's" group Akatsuki (which is actually TOBI's group). Yet he still calls Tobi "MADARA". Hence, Itachi thinks that the other shinobi with MS that helped him in the Uchiha slaughter is "Madara" but it actually is TOBI.

4. The "Madara" Itachi refers to is actually Tobi. He knew that Madara has the MS, but "Madara" is actually "Tobi". So Tobi actually is the person with the MS Itachi is referring to, not the REAL Madara, but Itachi doesn't realize this fact while he is alive.

-gHost Senju, K.U.S.H. Sage

Itachi was referring to Tobi, because Tobi was in the "I AM MADARA" phase, and Itachi really believed it. ^^ Because Madara pocesses the MS, and EMS.

 

[The ProphecY]

I think this entire dispute is because Kishi made a mistake making Danzo's character. I don't think he originally wanted him to have MS, but then changed his mind. I mean we didn't find out until 150+ chapters later that Shisui had MS before he died, meaning Danzo had MS. So when Itachi said this, he was probably referring to himself, Tobi, and Kakashi. And Danzo was an after thought on Kishi's part

I don’t want to assume things out of context, but what the TC stated was very clear & I believed he explained his points thoroughly. The third MS user Itachi was referring to was actually Uchiha Madara, -his accomplice, mentor, & teacher. The one who also assisted him annihilate the rest of the Uchiha Clan, & the one whom he believed as invincible & immortal. But one should always remember that it was the time when Tobi faked his true identity as the great Madara. Thus, it’s more logical to assume that Tobi deceived Itachi by letting him believed that he was the real one. This may seem possible because Tobi was very proficient in manipulating people as he does the same with Nagato & few Akatsuki members.

The OP also stated that it was impossible to be the real Madara that Itachi was talking about because he was probably dead during the time of the massacre. To support his statement, Madara probably died when Nagato was a kid, as he thought he was revived by a grown-up Nagato using Outer Path: Samsara of Heavenly Life Technique, but later shocked that he was brought back through Kabuto’s IWR version. The point here is, Nagato could have been 15-20 years older than Itachi, and thus, it was highly possible that Madara was dead during the time of the massacre.

To further prove that it was really Tobi whom Itachi truly referring, the following arguments should be considered:

1.) He did the massacre with "Madara" (who is actually TOBI, who has all the Uchiha Eyes)
2.) He joined "Madara's" group Akatsuki (which is actually TOBI's group).
3.) He still called Tobi "MADARA" even during the time he was first resurrected via Kabuto’s Edo-tensei.
4.) According to Tobi, he met Danzo during the time of massacre. Thus, consequently prove that he was actually at the village at some point in that time.

Hence, Itachi still thinks that the other shinobi with MS that helped him in the Uchiha slaughter is "Madara" but is actually TOBI.

To OP: I do believe that Tobi have MS because Itachi confirmed so & there’s no statement backing up in the manga that the kyubi can be controlled by just a mere 3T sharingan other than MS or EMS. I also believed that it was Tobi whom Itachi referred as the 3rd MS user & not these shinobis:

Kakashi – He have sharingan during that time but not so sure if he had awaken his MS & I don’t think he’ll participate in the massacre
Danzo – He had Shisui’s right sharingan eye, but still uncertain if he can activate MS or not more especially during that time.
Shisui – Probably not, as he died before the massacre happened.

All in one, nice thread & +rep for the effort.

 

[Shirou Emiya]

He would have to have ms otherwise no moon eye plan...

 

[The Hidden Shinobi]

I can't believe people couldn't use there own brains a figure it out for them self's we was already told you need ms to control the kyuubi

 

[Stark]

If Tobi had MS he would have user it by now.

 

[Bigfoot34501]

Spoiler

I don’t want to assume things out of context, but what the TC stated was very clear & I believed he explained his points thoroughly. The third MS user Itachi was referring to was actually Uchiha Madara, -his accomplice, mentor, & teacher. The one who also assisted him annihilate the rest of the Uchiha Clan, & the one whom he believed as invincible & immortal. But one should always remember that it was the time when Tobi faked his true identity as the great Madara. Thus, it’s more logical to assume that Tobi deceived Itachi by letting him believed that he was the real one. This may seem possible because Tobi was very proficient in manipulating people as he does the same with Nagato & few Akatsuki members.

The OP also stated that it was impossible to be the real Madara that Itachi was talking about because he was probably dead during the time of the massacre. To support his statement, Madara probably died when Nagato was a kid, as he thought he was revived by a grown-up Nagato using Outer Path: Samsara of Heavenly Life Technique, but later shocked that he was brought back through Kabuto’s IWR version. The point here is, Nagato could have been 15-20 years older than Itachi, and thus, it was highly possible that Madara was dead during the time of the massacre.

To further prove that it was really Tobi whom Itachi truly referring, the following arguments should be considered:

1.) He did the massacre with "Madara" (who is actually TOBI, who has all the Uchiha Eyes)
2.) He joined "Madara's" group Akatsuki (which is actually TOBI's group).
3.) He still called Tobi "MADARA" even during the time he was first resurrected via Kabuto’s Edo-tensei.
4.) According to Tobi, he met Danzo during the time of massacre. Thus, consequently prove that he was actually at the village at some point in that time.

Hence, Itachi still thinks that the other shinobi with MS that helped him in the Uchiha slaughter is "Madara" but is actually TOBI.

To OP: I do believe that Tobi have MS because Itachi confirmed so & there’s no statement backing up in the manga that the kyubi can be controlled by just a mere 3T sharingan other than MS or EMS. I also believed that it was Tobi whom Itachi referred as the 3rd MS user & not these shinobis:

Kakashi – He have sharingan during that time but not so sure if he had awaken his MS & I don’t think he’ll participate in the massacre
Danzo – He had Shisui’s right sharingan eye, but still uncertain if he can activate MS or not more especially during that time.
Shisui – Probably not, as he died before the massacre happened.

All in one, nice thread & +rep for the effort.

:sy:

I didn't look at that page before, but now I understand. Itachi says there are three people who have MS in a flashback, NOT in the present day. That means he was referring to himself, Tobi, and Danzo. I'm sorry I made a mistake

 

[zatamaiko]

Good thread man +rep

 

[Prince Charles]

itachi said 3 plp

he was referring to himself

madara uciha and his brother izuna

 

[hola112233]

you're right exept if Izuna is alive then tobi could be Izuna

 

[abhiraj]

Actually Itachi said if Sasuke activates the MS he would be the 3rd living person to do so.
Coz 4 Known people had already activated it, namely Madara, Izuna, shisui and Itachi

 

[MilwaukeegHost]

Are you retarded? One of the strongest abilities available to the Rinnegan user is the ability to revive the dead, it doesn't matter if Izuna DIED. Why wouldn't Madara take the initiative to revive his dead brother?

Part of your argument is stating that Izuna is dead so I felt the need to correct you on that matter, Izuna could very much be alive.

I know that Madara was alive during Nagato's birth because he knows Nagato personally and he clearly says that he knew Nagato when he was a kid, and that he thinks that Nagato is older now, implying that he died around that time.

If Madara used his Rinnegan to revive Izuna.....

THEN WHY DID IZUNA AGE BUT MADARA DIDNT???



If Madara brought Izuna back to life, they would be about the same age, but IZUNA WOULD BE YOUNGER THAN MADARA. So what you mean to tell me is... Izuna, the younger brother, AGED TERRIBLY... while Madara didn't age at all??? Madara's Edo Tensei was YOUNG, not old like Izuna. Someone younger than Madara should not have aged more than him. Think about it.

 

[Mobius Uchiha]

The 3rd person is possibly Kakashi or Madara Uchiha, but don't be fooled by that. Itachi always referred Tobi as Madara, so I'm pretty confident in saying that he didn't know he was a different person, or at least a different body. Itachi believed the real Madara was still alive (Madara and his brother were the first ones to activate the MS), so draw the conclusion yourself. Tobi hasn't got the Mangekyo Sharigan, why? Do you really believe he wouldn't use its power against Konan? Do you really believe he would have sacrificed one of his MS for Izanagi without even trying something else before? A MS user is supposed to have at least 2 different MS abilities, but the only one that seems reasonable for Tobi is his Space-Time technique, that always comes out of his left eye, which it's always showed as a 3 Tomoe Sharingan. He has never showed any drawback like a MS user would have by using his eyes power. "You need the MS to control the Nine-Tails" we don't really know this for sure, because Tobi still managed to pull that out. This is not a great point, I know, but it's possible because if Madara = Tobi in someway, probably that ability doesn't really require the MS, but just great expertise of your sharingan, which the real Madara had for sure. The subjugated Kyuubi always showed a 3 Tomoe Sharingan in his eyes, even in the OVA clip in NUNS Generations, not any MS/EMS.

 

[MilwaukeegHost]

The 3rd person is possibly Kakashi or Madara Uchiha, but don't be fooled by that. Itachi always referred Tobi as Madara, so I'm pretty confident in saying that he didn't know he was a different person, or at least a different body. Itachi believed the real Madara was still alive (Madara and his brother were the first ones to activate the MS), so draw the conclusion yourself. Tobi hasn't got the Mangekyo Sharigan, why? Do you really believe he wouldn't use its power against Konan? Do you really believe he would have sacrificed one of his MS for Izanagi without even trying something else before? A MS user is supposed to have at least 2 different MS abilities, but the only one that seems reasonable for Tobi is his Space-Time technique, that always comes out of his left eye, which it's always showed as a 3 Tomoe Sharingan. He has never showed any drawback like a MS user would have by using his eyes power. "You need the MS to control the Nine-Tails" we don't really know this for sure, because Tobi still managed to pull that out. This is not a great point, I know, but it's possible because if Madara = Tobi in someway, probably that ability doesn't really require the MS, but just great expertise of your sharingan, which the real Madara had for sure. The subjugated Kyuubi always showed a 3 Tomoe Sharingan in his eyes, even in the OVA clip in NUNS Generations, not any MS/EMS.

First of all, Welcome to the Base.






Ok. Now on to the #FAILS (lol)


1. Tobi hasn't got the Mangekyo Sharigan, why? Do you really believe he wouldn't use its power against Konan?

Yes. He obviously UNDERESTIMATED KONAN'S POWER, just like he does most shinobi. He didn't use MS because he either didn't think he needs to, or because he didn't even have in the eyes.
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2. Do you really believe he would have sacrificed one of his MS for Izanagi without even trying something else before?

No he wouldn't. This is EXACTLY WHY if Tobi has the MS, he is NOT wearing those eyes. He also has a Rinnegan eye that he isn't using, and a WALL FULL OF EYES. He obviously kept in that other regular Sharigan (left eye not right) in case he ever needs to use Izanagi. FYI
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3. A MS user is supposed to have at least 2 different MS abilities, but the only one that seems reasonable for Tobi is his Space-Time technique, that always comes out of his left eye, which it's always showed as a 3 Tomoe Sharingan. He has never showed any drawback like a MS user would have by using his eyes power.

NOT IF HE ISNT WEARING THE MS. He has 1000 Uchiha eyes man. He has a Rinnegan at home so obviously he isnt always wearing his most powerful eyes. He hasn't shown any MS jutsu yet, which makes sense if he isn't ever wearing his original MS eyes (now in favor for the Rinnegan eye).
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4. "You need the MS to control the Nine-Tails" we don't really know this for sure, because Tobi still managed to pull that out.

This could be wrong... but the MANGA does say this, FYI.
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IMPORTANT NOTE: Just because Tobi has MS, doesnt mean he keeps in those eyes. He also has 2 Rinnegan eyes but he is not using both of them. He has a freakin' laboratory of Uchiha eyes for Goodness Sake. He could obviously be keeping his MS at the lair with his other Rinnegan Eye.

If Tobi is Izuna, if he wore his MS eye EVERYONE WOULD KNOW WHO HE IS. I'm just saying... there are multiple reasons for him NOT to wear his MS. FYI

 

[Forsberg]

Have Itachi actually seen Tobi use his MS or is he just sure of him having it? Well he is afterall "Madara Uchiha" the first one to ever awaken it? But he is not, now is he?

I just think Itachi assumes Tobi got a MS since he believed him to be Madara. Ofcourse Madara would have the Mangekyou Sharingan. He is the best of the best within the clan.

But Tobi is not Madara.

If Itachi have never seen Tobi use his MS and just went on his word on being Madara this thread doesnt prove anything.

 

[SilverSlick]

Reason why Tobi used his Izanami was because he was already planning on using Rinnegan after. Oh yeah, I think he was referring to Madara.