[Spoilers] Time travel dbsuper episode 61

[Meowazziel]

I have my ideas how it works but maybe I think I am making it more complicated than it is.

I thought it could be like this:

Timeline split.
There seems to have been made a timeline split in the present.
The present as in the main universe of dragonball super that we follow.
Lets call it the presentA.

We see Trunks using the timemachine to get to the presentA.
There he meets again with Goku, Vegeta and co and even his little self.
After a bit, Black appears in the the presentA, fights with Goku and later on Black gets sucked back into the time distortion
back to future trunks his timeline.

Beerus and Whis recognize the chakra of Black and visit universe 10 with Goku.
There Goku beats Zamasu.
It is a Zamasu who was beaten by Goku on universe 10 kai planet, who later will become Black
(who Goku just fought before they went to universe 10).
This is quite the crazy timelinerollercoaster.


PresentA and presentB Zamasu.
There have been created a presentA and presentB due to timetravel.
This presentA and B happened either:
-Because Gowasu and Zamasu 1000 year in the future timering travel to that orange dino tribe, where Zamasu kills one.
-Because of Whis timereversel to save Gowasu (that the reversed time still continues onreversed in a different timeline),
-Because of trunks his timetravel and Black following in and out through the distortion.
-Or a presentA and presentB due to other reason.
We know from Gowasu his explanation that different color timerings and timelines can get created when history is changed after all.

Beerus kills Zamasu in presentA and they save Gowasu.
Zamasu (presentB) kills Gowasu in presentB, steals the timering, wishes to switch bodies with Goku from presentB,
kills Goku his family, visits futuretrunks timeline Zamasu and teams up with that Zamasu.

Back to presentA.
In future trunks timeline Zamasu presentB (now Black) follows future trunks into the past to presentA.
Here Goku and co meet Black for the first time and Goku fights for his first time with Black,
but it is not Black his first time against Goku.
After a bit Black gets sucked into the time distortion (as he is not suppose to go back in time to presentA,
therefore gets sucked into the time distortion back to future trunks timeline in the future).
Black has already fought with Goku back when he as Zamasu was still in his (Zamasu) own body.
But Black timetraveled back to presentA and Goku vs Zamasu in his own body, had not happened yet over there.

Whis and Beerus recognize the chakra from Black and go with Goku to universe 10 where Goku beats Zamasu.
The presentB Zamasu will become the Black that Goku presentA just fought before they went to universe 10.
The presentB Zamasu has Goku presentB his body. Present A Zamasu is dead.

I find it quite the rollercoaster tbh but I think it could be like this.
Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
As if I am wrong, I would like to know how it is.

 

[The Amazing Spider Man]

This is confusing af b. I just wanna see my boy Trunks kick some ass!!!

 

[Xee Etbrkz]

I have my ideas how it works but maybe I think I am making it more complicated than it is.

I thought it could be like this:

Timeline split.
There seems to have been made a timeline split in the present.
The present as in the main universe of dragonball super that we follow.
Lets call it the presentA.

We see Trunks using the timemachine to get to the presentA.
There he meets again with Goku, Vegeta and co and even his little self.
After a bit, Black appears in the the presentA, fights with Goku and later on Black gets sucked back into the time distortion
back to future trunks his timeline.

Beerus and Whis recognize the chakra of Black and visit universe 10 with Goku.
There Goku beats Zamasu.
It is a Zamasu who was beaten by Goku on universe 10 kai planet, who later will become Black
(who Goku just fought before they went to universe 10).
This is quite the crazy timelinerollercoaster.


PresentA and presentB Zamasu.
There have been created a presentA and presentB due to timetravel.
This presentA and B happened either:
-Because Gowasu and Zamasu 1000 year in the future timering travel to that orange dino tribe, where Zamasu kills one.
-Because of Whis timereversel to save Gowasu (that the reversed time still continues onreversed in a different timeline),
-Because of trunks his timetravel and Black following in and out through the distortion.
-Or a presentA and presentB due to other reason.
We know from Gowasu his explanation that different color timerings and timelines can get created when history is changed after all.

Beerus kills Zamasu in presentA and they save Gowasu.
Zamasu (presentB) kills Gowasu in presentB, steals the timering, wishes to switch bodies with Goku from presentB,
kills Goku his family, visits futuretrunks timeline Zamasu and teams up with that Zamasu.

Back to presentA.
In future trunks timeline Zamasu presentB (now Black) follows future trunks into the past to presentA.
Here Goku and co meet Black for the first time and Goku fights for his first time with Black,
but it is not Black his first time against Goku.
After a bit Black gets sucked into the time distortion (as he is not suppose to go back in time to presentA,
therefore gets sucked into the time distortion back to future trunks timeline in the future).
Black has already fought with Goku back when he as Zamasu was still in his (Zamasu) own body.
But Black timetraveled back to presentA and Goku vs Zamasu in his own body, had not happened yet over there.

Whis and Beerus recognize the chakra from Black and go with Goku to universe 10 where Goku beats Zamasu.
The presentB Zamasu will become the Black that Goku presentA just fought before they went to universe 10.
The presentB Zamasu has Goku presentB his body. Present A Zamasu is dead.

I find it quite the rollercoaster tbh but I think it could be like this.
Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
As if I am wrong, I would like to know how it is.

A very good explanation. Truly you have put some thought into this. Bravo.

The only contradictory thing that I find here is that an alternate timeline can be formed by Whis' time reversal. I think Whis clarified in one of the previous episodes that this doesn't happen if he rewinds time. He said the time axis shifts or something. Maybe it was manga. Idr

However, if your theory is indeed correct, it must have been Whis' actions that created a different timeline in present. Consider presentA and presentB timeline as per your theory. The difference here is that in one timeline Zamasu dies and in the other words he does not. This can only happen if the thing which created 2 timelines was Whis' time rewinding , presentA where Beerus kills Zamasu diverges from presentB where he does not.

Also, in both, presentA and presentB, Zamasu has met Goku and fought him. If it was Trunks' actions that created 2 separate present timelines,A and B, it would have already occurred once he travelled back. We would have had a present timeline where Zamasu hasn't fought Goku, as Goku would have never fought Black if it weren't for Trunks. Also, Gowasu said travelling to the future cannot create a separate timeline, and only travelling to the past creates a separate timeline, not travelling to future. Here I assume, if you travel to future and then you have to travel to past, you don't create a separate timeline.

So Trunks' actions did not create a separate timeline, Gowasu's actions didn't, then for your theory to be correct Whis' action did it. Whis said that was not possible though. That is what I can't explain by this theory.

 

[Oblivionx]

you are wrong.
when trunks went back in time and saved goku from dying from heart virus that is what created two timelines.
then zamasu that got destroyed by beerus somehow went to past and exchanged bodies with goku.
then he came to future and killed trunks timeline kaioshin and made trunks timeline zamasu immortal via dragon balls.
There seems to be a plothole here. Because of zamasu of goku's timeline killed kaioshin then who did beerus save. According to black beerus killed zamasu after black had already traveled to trunks timeline. That means he had already killed kaioshin before beerus killed him. Which doesn't make any sense. So either it's a plothole or there are more than two timelines.

 

[Your Creepy Stalker]

Alternate timelines are only created when someone goes back in time: There's a timeline where they showed up and a timeline where they didn't. Black doesn't actually go back in time at any point, apparently, though that makes you wonder why Zamasu in FTrunks timeline didn't kill Gowasu yet.
Going forward in time does not create alternate timelines, nor does Whis' rewind.

Thanks to the Androids Saga, there were 4 active timelines before all this, although we only care about two of them. After this, FTrunks creates a new timeline by going back in time after Black showed up. In the original timeline, Zamasu wished to become Black then jumped to FTrunks' timeline because Beerus didn't exist there. Since he went forward, this doesn't make a new timeline. When FTrunks goes back, this sets of a chain to prevent Zamasu becoming Black, splitting the timelines.

 

[Meowazziel]

I hope they will elaborate some more on it.
Either in anime later on, the manga or both.

Alternate timelines are only created when someone goes back in time: There's a timeline where they showed up and a timeline where they didn't. Black doesn't actually go back in time at any point, apparently, though that makes you wonder why Zamasu in FTrunks timeline didn't kill Gowasu yet.
Going forward in time does not create alternate timelines, nor does Whis' rewind.

Thanks to the Androids Saga, there were 4 active timelines before all this, although we only care about two of them. After this, FTrunks creates a new timeline by going back in time after Black showed up. In the original timeline, Zamasu wished to become Black then jumped to FTrunks' timeline because Beerus didn't exist there. Since he went forward, this doesn't make a new timeline. When FTrunks goes back, this sets of a chain to prevent Zamasu becoming Black, splitting the timelines.

Indeed the timetravel with trunks his timemachine (actually bulma her machine) by trunks (and a different timeline cell) already created timelines in dragonballz

Going to dragonball super.
In trunks his own time, he fights with black (before trunks goes to the past in dragonball super).
This black, has already fought with Goku on the universe 10 kai planet.
But that will only be chained in action, when trunks goes to the past in dragonball super, because otherwise Goku wont be fighting Zamasu in Zamasu his body
But apparently it was already chained in action before Trunks went, as he is already fighting black before he goes to the past in dragonball super.

So there has to be more to it.

Some corrections to what you said.
The Gowasu in future trunks timeline is dead.
The Zamasu in future trunks timeline didnt kill Gowasu.
Black did that.

Also for my theory to work it is important that the timelines have been created.
Of some less importance (still nice to know) is how so.
I gave several options and an open option after all.
Some of the options could be wrong. That is possible.
Still thanks for the input though.

A very good explanation. Truly you have put some thought into this. Bravo.

The only contradictory thing that I find here is that an alternate timeline can be formed by Whis' time reversal. I think Whis clarified in one of the previous episodes that this doesn't happen if he rewinds time. He said the time axis shifts or something. Maybe it was manga. Idr

However, if your theory is indeed correct, it must have been Whis' actions that created a different timeline in present. Consider presentA and presentB timeline as per your theory. The difference here is that in one timeline Zamasu dies and in the other words he does not. This can only happen if the thing which created 2 timelines was Whis' time rewinding , presentA where Beerus kills Zamasu diverges from presentB where he does not.

Also, in both, presentA and presentB, Zamasu has met Goku and fought him. If it was Trunks' actions that created 2 separate present timelines,A and B, it would have already occurred once he travelled back. We would have had a present timeline where Zamasu hasn't fought Goku, as Goku would have never fought Black if it weren't for Trunks. Also, Gowasu said travelling to the future cannot create a separate timeline, and only travelling to the past creates a separate timeline, not travelling to future. Here I assume, if you travel to future and then you have to travel to past, you don't create a separate timeline.

So Trunks' actions did not create a separate timeline, Gowasu's actions didn't, then for your theory to be correct Whis' action did it. Whis said that was not possible though. That is what I can't explain by this theory.

Thanks.

Trunks his dbz actions at least create seperate timelines.
His dbsuper actions must have as well, but are they enough?

For my theory to work it is important that the timelines have been created.
Of some less importance (still nice to know though) is how so.
I gave several options and an open option after all.
Some of those options could be wrong. That is possible.

Where did you read/watch that whis his timererversel cant have an affect on timelines?

What can create timelines according to Gowasu is changing history.
This can happen if you travel to the past (like trunks has done), but maybe also by other means.
Like Zamasu killing that dino tribe guy 1000 years in the future?

Anyway there must be a timeline where Beerus kills Zamasu
and a timeline where this is not done, but at the same time, be a timeline where Goku fought with Zamasu in Zamasu his body on the universe 10 kai planet.

That way it all falls into place.

you are wrong.
when trunks went back in time and saved goku from dying from heart virus that is what created two timelines.
then zamasu that got destroyed by beerus somehow went to past and exchanged bodies with goku.
then he came to future and killed trunks timeline kaioshin and made trunks timeline zamasu immortal via dragon balls.
There seems to be a plothole here. Because of zamasu of goku's timeline killed kaioshin then who did beerus save. According to black beerus killed zamasu after black had already traveled to trunks timeline. That means he had already killed kaioshin before beerus killed him. Which doesn't make any sense. So either it's a plothole or there are more than two timelines.

Trunks has also changed timelines indeed in dragonballz. I dont deny that. Would have been better if I had added and clarified that more into my post. I just considered that clear already.
Also a timeline version of cell has split timelines as well with trunks his timemachine in dbz.

Something that I think you are incorrect about.
Black never said in the episode that he traveled to the past.
He talked about his past self. That doesnt have to mean travel to the past.

The plothole you are talking about gets fixed by my theory as it has a presentA and presentB Zamasu. One gets destroyed by Beerus in presentA (which Black refers to as his past self). The other one does not get destroyed by Beerus in presentB and kills Gowasu, takes the timerings and earrings, wishes for gokus body switch (all in presentB), kills his family etc.
and goes to the timeline of trunks where he kills the Gowasu of trunks his timeline and teams up with the Zamasu of that timeline who wishes for immortality.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

its essentially like Flashpoint in season 3 flash.

Everytime trunks goes back its a new timeline. He may return to his but it still creates the split.

DBZ had 4.

 

[SixPathsOfTobi]

No matter how many timelines you bring into play, you cannot logically explain it, it's 100% impossible, this is just one of those things you need to let slip.

The thing that sets thing in motion (goku beating zamasu) is a consequence of the consequence of the thing that set things in motion (black messing things up in the future and coming back with the timering pulling him after trunks), which is absolutely impossible.
The consequence/effect of A is the cause of A, no matter how many timelines you bring into play it's impossible.

 

[Your Creepy Stalker]

No matter how many timelines you bring into play, you cannot logically explain it, it's 100% impossible, this is just one of those things you need to let slip.

The thing that sets thing in motion (goku beating zamasu) is a consequence of the consequence of the thing that set things in motion (black messing things up in the future and coming back with the timering pulling him after trunks), which is absolutely impossible.
The consequence/effect of A is the cause of A, no matter how many timelines you bring into play it's impossible.

The only question currently is "Why would Zamasu wish for Goku's body?", and currently the best explanation would be either than he wished for something general and got Goku by coincidence (EG, I wish for the body of the strongest mortal), or that he saw Goku at the universe tournament on Kamitube (though why he wouldn't wish for Hit's body is beyond me)

Otherwise, the timeline holds up: Zamasu hates mortals in all timelines, and in the original timeline he becomes Black. He starts messing with Trunks' timeline, and that lets Trunks go back to warn people in the present timeline. Unlike the androids this time, they acted sensibly and stoppped Zamasu in the past. But thanks to multiverse, this doesn't stop Black from existing.

 

[Xee Etbrkz]

The only question currently is "Why would Zamasu wish for Goku's body?", and currently the best explanation would be either than he wished for something general and got Goku by coincidence (EG, I wish for the body of the strongest mortal), or that he saw Goku at the universe tournament on Kamitube (though why he wouldn't wish for Hit's body is beyond me)

Otherwise, the timeline holds up: Zamasu hates mortals in all timelines, and in the original timeline he becomes Black. He starts messing with Trunks' timeline, and that lets Trunks go back to warn people in the present timeline. Unlike the androids this time, they acted sensibly and stoppped Zamasu in the past. But thanks to multiverse, this doesn't stop Black from existing.

He wished for Goku's body because he fought Goku and despised him. He thought, won't it be clever to destroy him using his body. You know how villains are, always going for the dramatic effect.

No matter how many timelines you bring into play, you cannot logically explain it, it's 100% impossible, this is just one of those things you need to let slip.

The thing that sets thing in motion (goku beating zamasu) is a consequence of the consequence of the thing that set things in motion (black messing things up in the future and coming back with the timering pulling him after trunks), which is absolutely impossible.
The consequence/effect of A is the cause of A, no matter how many timelines you bring into play it's impossible.

Yup. I have thought about it a lot and searched many forums, but I still can't find a flawless theory.

 

[Your Creepy Stalker]

He wished for Goku's body because he fought Goku and despised him. He thought, won't it be clever to destroy him using his body. You know how villains are, always going for the dramatic effect.

No, this is in the "original" timeline, where Trunks didn't warn them about Black. Goku would never have met or fought Zamasu if not for that.

 

[Meowazziel]

No matter how many timelines you bring into play, you cannot logically explain it, it's 100% impossible, this is just one of those things you need to let slip.

The thing that sets thing in motion (goku beating zamasu) is a consequence of the consequence of the thing that set things in motion (black messing things up in the future and coming back with the timering pulling him after trunks), which is absolutely impossible.
The consequence/effect of A is the cause of A, no matter how many timelines you bring into play it's impossible.

Incorrect.
In dragonball, the future is already determined, unless someone messes with time and messes up with history, which causes timelinesplits.

In the future of trunks his timeline and our timeline, the things had already happened, before we as viewers see them play out.
Meaning in the future of trunks his timeline, he had already gone to the past. In the present of trunks his timeline, he hasnt yet, but in the future he has.
Meaning in the future of our timeline (the main one we watch), trunks has visited and Goku has fought Zamasu on the universe 10 kai planet, before we see it in the present main timeline that we watch.

Meaning this future present timeline Zamasu, can have already become black and gone to the timeline of trunks, before trunks in his trunks timeline, has gone to the past to inform Goku and co.

Thats why Black said it doesnt matter what happens to my past self as this was his future self.

Add this to my theory and it should be clear that it can all work without loophole.

This is among reasons why it is so dangerous to mess with time and creating timelines where worlds are very different from one another.
As future and present can mess with each other this way.

Please let me hear what you think of this as the part that can fix loopholes in addition to the rest of the theory.

I have thought about it a lot and searched many forums, but I still can't find a flawless theory.

Please check my answer to Sixpathsoftobi in this post and let me hear what you think about it.

No, this is in the "original" timeline, where Trunks didn't warn them about Black. Goku would never have met or fought Zamasu if not for that.

Nope.
That would require Zamasu to go to the past and there is no info yet where he did that.

 

[Xee Etbrkz]

Please check my answer to Sixpathsoftobi in this post and let me hear what you think about it.

I think it is hopeless to make sense of it. Here, check out my explanation

You must be registered for see links

 

[DominiqueX]

The whole thing would've made more sense if the Zamasu who became Black was inspired to develop his plans by watching Goku vs. Hit on KamiTube.

 

[Your Creepy Stalker]

Nope.
That would require Zamasu to go to the past and there is no info yet where he did that.

The alternate timeline wasn't split by Zamasu, who as far as we know has only ever gone forward. It was made by Trunks, when he went back to warn everyone about Black.