"This was our country first"

Donald Trump

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If you prefer science, the land actually belongs to the universe itself, as your name was not entitled to the land by it's creator.
If you believe in God, you know what I'll say.
 

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1. Native Americans didn't get "wiped out" by "European immigrants", they mostly died of the Old World diseases those Europeans brought with them (that is what happens when you live on a continent isolated from the rest of the world for tens of thousands of years, the same thing happened to the Australian aborigines); Europeans also colonized parts of Africa and Asia, why do you think the natives of those regions weren't "wiped out" (especially Black Africans who were far below Native Americans in any measure of civilizational capacity)?

2. Native Americans are native to the dirt of the continent, they are not native to the state you call America, which is a part of western civilization and mostly the creation of European peoples.
*Looks at location...yeah that explains your post. Seriously though, I can't see any sense in this post.

While I think it's a ignorant statement for someone to claim they were here before the native americans. The idea that land belongs to anybody is a stupid manmade concept.

Edit: Plus in this world if you want to claim something. Gang, territory, a religion, etc. You have to be strong enough to defend it.
I agree with the bold.
 
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Prometheus Beta

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*Looks at location...yeah that explains your post. Seriously though, I can't see any sense in this post.


I agree with the bold.

What has my location to do with that post? Do you dispute my claim that the main causal factor responsible for the catastrophic population decline of the Native Americans were disease-epidemics (by the way, Amerindians and Aborigines aren't the only historical examples of this, the upper-bound for the estimated percentage of Europeans killed in the bubonic plague is 50%, though of course Europe made a full recovery; the difference is that it was like several bubonic plagues for the natives of America/Australia when the old world diseases were introduced) and not genocide, or the fact that the modern technological state called America is mostly the creation of European peoples? You're free to dispute whatever I have said but at least give me an argument.
 

chopstickchakra

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Here is an interesting fact that you might like to keep in mind, the germ-nature of disease was unknown until the late 19th century (courtesy of the Frenchman Louis Pasteur). With that fact in mind, an impartial observer would probably not be surprised to find that in all the historical cases of conflict between the European colonists and Native Americans, there has only ever been one recorded actual instance where biological warfare was contemplated (in the French and Indian war where the Natives were allied with the French) and that too involved the use of smallpox (whose infectious nature was well known). On the other hand, the old world diseases that destroyed entire segments of Native populations numbered at least a dozen or so.

Were the early colonials often openly hostile to the "savages" and commonly engaged in warfare against them? Yes, that is a well documented historical fact I won't deny. Is there any evidence whatsoever of a deliberate attempt at continental genocide against Native Americans on the part of any European colonials? None as far as Im aware, but Id be happy to be educated by anyone who can demonstrate otherwise (caveat: I don't entertain conspiracy theories).

Finally, I never tried to morally defend the colonization nor did I comment on the OP so don't jump the gun. See, Im just sick and tired of these - ironically often highly ethnocentric and ethnically motivated themselves- minorities who subscribe to this ideology where the world consists of evil Europeans, and perpetually/inherently exploited natives and minorities, and that we consequently owe them. I won't deny that Europeans had a significant share of destruction, exploitation and whatever in the past few centuries but I won't deny our rightful achievements and civilization either (I also refuse to give in to the double standard where I reject my own form of collective identity but minorities are allowed to have theirs). So I repeat. America as you and I understand it, is a part of western civilization and is mostly the creation of European peoples.

There probably wouldn't be a consensus about evil Europeans ravaging and stealing homelands if there wasn't a history of it. The Vikings did it the British did it the French did it the Romans did it Germany did it Russia did it, you see what I'm getting at with this? Not many other countries left their continent when taking over land and most rarely took land, you don't here about a Chinese empire that conquered nations, the Chinese empires ruled over China. Granted they tried to take Japan but that didn't work. You don't hear about how India used to invade and enslave neighboring countries. Those countries' struggles were internal, the European countries just weren't happy in their own backyard.

"America as you and I understand it, is a part of western civilization and is mostly the creation of European peoples."
Means absolutely nothing almost all lands were civilized by foreigners, even England was pushed by the invasion of the Saxons. New people bring new growth but that doesn't mean they're allowed to claim rights just because they made improvements. That'd be like if I moved into your house, without paying you anything to do so just moved myself into your living room, then repainted the walls and bought/made brand new appliances for the whole house and paid to expand the size of the house, then I kicked you out and said it's my house I did more here than you. We both know that was your house. It's the same principle just on a bigger scale.

" Is there any evidence whatsoever of a deliberate attempt at continental genocide" The Indian removal Act was not an attempt it was a legal decree that Indians give up there land to the Government because they were not allowed to own the title to it and if they refused they were killed. You may try and retort with "but it said they weren't allowed to forcibly remove them" That was particular to the 5 civilized tribes that didn't cover all the other tribes they forced from their land. Manifest Destiny, the whole settling of our country and Mexico from Spain. It's almost like you're trying not to look at it.
 
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Prometheus Beta

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There probably wouldn't be a consensus about evil Europeans ravaging and stealing homelands if there wasn't a history of it. The Vikings did it the British did it the French did it the Romans did it Germany did it Russia did it, you see what I'm getting at with this? Not many other countries left their continent when taking over land and most rarely took land, you don't here about a Chinese empire that conquered nations, the Chinese empires ruled over China. Granted they tried to take Japan but that didn't work. You don't hear about how India used to invade and enslave neighboring countries. Those countries' struggles were internal, the European countries just weren't happy in their own backyard.

"America as you and I understand it, is a part of western civilization and is mostly the creation of European peoples."
Means absolutely nothing almost all lands were civilized by foreigners, even England was pushed by the invasion of the Saxons. New people bring new growth but that doesn't mean they're allowed to claim rights just because they made improvements. That'd be like if I moved into your house, without paying you anything to do so just moved myself into your living room, then repainted the walls and bought/made brand new appliances for the whole house and paid to expand the size of the house, then I kicked you out and said it's my house I did more here than you. We both know that was your house. It's the same principle just on a bigger scale.

" Is there any evidence whatsoever of a deliberate attempt at continental genocide" The Indian removal Act was not an attempt it was a legal decree that Indians give up there land to the Government because they were not allowed to own the title to it and if they refused they were killed. You may try and retort with "but it said they weren't allowed to forcibly remove them" That was particular to the 5 civilized tribes that didn't cover all the other tribes they forced from their land. Manifest Destiny, the whole settling of our country and Mexico from Spain. It's almost like you're trying not to look at it.

On the contrary, History is nothing if not a story of conquest but the European peoples have been relatively tame in regard to "destroying" other peoples, actually (the North-East Asians seem to be even more tame but they also produced the Mongols of Genghis Khan). The Vikings, that you mention, did not displace any other peoples, pillaging they did (and mostly against other White Europeans) but that is relatively common form of human tribal behaviour, and they were mostly absorbed by the locals wherever they settled: in England, their genetic footprints remain to this day, I personally have a Scandinavian paternal genetic line (haplogroup I) and it probably goes back to the Viking settlements in England, but any distinct Scandinavian group ceased to exist in England long, long ago. The same is true for all the other groups that were assimilated in the various native British ethnic groups throughout the ages, indeed Europe in general has been a "melting pot" of sorts between the various European tribes throughout history.

You're in for a real treat if you believe in that whole "noble savage" nonsense. Hunter-gatherer groups (including your beloved Amerindians) commonly engaged in tribal warfare and often the denouement involved the slaughtering of all the enemy tribes males, with the sexual enslaving of the captured women. Indeed this all too human behaviour has been consecrated as holy by the great religions. Jared Diamond, a scientific hero of the political left who you'd no doubt admire, is rather honest here in his description of the nature of the tribalism of the ancient Israelites here in this book review:
"The Bible, especially the Old Testament, is full of exhortations to be cruel to heathens. Deuteronomy 20:10–18, for example, explains the obligation of the Israelites to practice genocide: when your army approaches a distant city, you should enslave all its inhabitants if it surrenders, and kill all its men and enslave its women and children and steal their cattle and everything else if it doesn't surrender. But if it's a city of the Canaanites or Hittites or any of those other abominable believers in false gods, then the true God commands you to kill everything that breathes in the city. The Book of Joshua describes approvingly how Joshua became a hero by carrying out those instructions, slaughtering all the inhabitants of over four hundred cities. The book of rabbinical commentaries known as the Talmud analyzes the potential ambiguities arising from conflicts between those two principles of "Thou shalt not kill [believers in thine own God]" and "Thou must kill [believers in another god]." For instance, according to some Talmudic commentators an Israelite is guilty of murder if he intentionally kills a fellow Israelite; is innocent if he intentionally kills a non-Israelite; and is also innocent if he kills an Israelite while throwing a stone into a group consisting of nine Israelites plus one heathen (because he might have been aiming at the one heathen)."

Here is a rather more interesting comment on his experiences with the natives of New Guinea
"Interestingly, among New Guineans, religion is never invoked to justify killing members of an out-group. Many of my New Guinean friends have described to me their participation in genocidal attacks on neighboring tribes. In all those accounts, I have never heard the slightest hint of any religious motive, of dying for God or the true religion, or of sacrificing oneself for any idealistic reason whatsoever."


The Prophet Mohammed, after defeating the Jewish Banu Qurayza tribe (who had betrayed him in a religious-tribal war, although I think any impartial observer might have expected that given Mohammeds incessant fanatical attempts to convert them), had all the males beheaded and the females taken as *** slaves, for example (Sahih al-Bukhari, 5:58:148). Arabic and Islam originated in a small corner of the Arabian peninsula; however, the Middle East and Northern Africa were once teeming with various Semitic, Indo-Iranian and other peoples and their cultures and languages. But today Arabic and Islam cover a continents worth area of that region, what do you think happened to all those peoples, their cultures and their languages?

The Abrahamic religions are not unique in their consecration of tribal warfare and tribal genocide. Hunter-gathers like Amerindians had their religious forms of genocide too, there are many anthropological accounts of Native American tribal warfare, I will indirectly describe just one for brevity. The great Biologist E.O. Wilson very eloquently describes one such case of the Mundurucu headhunters:
"War can be defined as the violent rupture of the intricate and powerful fabric of the territorial taboos observed by social groups. The force behind most warlike policies is ethnocentrism, the irrationally exaggerated allegiance of individuals to their kin and fellow tribesmen. In general, primitive men divide the world into two tangible parts, the near environment of home, local villages, kin, friends, tame animals, and witches, and the more distant universe of neighboring villages, intertribal allies, enemies, wild animals, and ghosts. This elemental topography makes easier the distinction between enemies who can be attacked and killed and friends who cannot. The contrast is heightened by reducing enemies to frightful and even sub* human status. The Mundurucu headhunters of Brazil made all these distinctions and in addition literally turned their enemies into game. The warriors spoke of the pariwat (non-Mundurucu.) in the same language ordinarily reserved for peccary and tapir. A high status was conferred on the taker of a human trophy head. He was believed to have attained special influence with the supernatural powers of the forest. Warfare was refined into a high art, in which other tribes were skillfully hunted as though they were packs of especially dangerous animals. The raids were planned with great care. In the cover of the pre* dawn darkness the Mundurucu men circled the enemy village, while their shaman quietly blew a sleep trance on the people within. The attack began at dawn. Incendiary arrows were shot onto the thatched houses, then the attackers ran screaming out of the forest into the village, chased the inhabitants into the open, and decapitated as many adult men and women as possible. Because annihilation of an entire village was difficult and risky, the attackers soon retreated with the heads of their victims. They proceeded on forced march as far as they could before resting, then headed home or on to the next enemy village." (On Human Nature, pages 110-111).

So you see, tribal genocide has often been practiced as a holy ritual throughout history by a lot of peoples, one thing that the European peoples at least did not do (the crusades were more mutual). Moreover, European peoples have actually been mild in imposing their own languages and cultures on other peoples compared to say, the Arabs and Muslims.

Finally, I think you do not understand the idea of genocide. See the holocaust is an example of an attempt at genocide: a deliberated attempt to "wipe out" a peoples from existence. Could you please explain to me how the Indian Removal Act was supposed to achieve that? I never said that Amerindian were not displaced from some of their lands, what I asserted was that there was no attempt to "wipe them out" as some of you have falsely claimed here. So Ill wait for that evidence again.
 

YowYan

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Very much agree with the latter part, Keno ^

OT: at op; How can they not feel angry with the most part of their population wiped out, their untouched nature raped, the remaining natives put in place, and blabla. Yes, the strongest rule and they have the right and power to do as they like. Just as our owners do with us as the passive modern-day slaves that we are nowadays. The ones with power conquer and they don't need to be given that r ight, they take it. It has always been like that and still is. Anywho, you should atleast try not to sound like such an ignoramus and dismiss the natives' legitimate sorrows. To them, the european whites that call themselves americans are a curse and, obviously, they were.
 

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On the contrary, History is nothing if not a story of conquest but the European peoples have been relatively tame in regard to "destroying" other peoples, actually (the North-East Asians seem to be even more tame but they also produced the Mongols of Genghis Khan). The Vikings, that you mention, did not displace any other peoples, pillaging they did (and mostly against other White Europeans) but that is relatively common form of human tribal behaviour, and they were mostly absorbed by the locals wherever they settled: in England, their genetic footprints remain to this day, I personally have a Scandinavian paternal genetic line (haplogroup I) and it probably goes back to the Viking settlements in England, but any distinct Scandinavian group ceased to exist in England long, long ago. The same is true for all the other groups that were assimilated in the various native British ethnic groups throughout the ages, indeed Europe in general has been a "melting pot" of sorts between the various European tribes throughout history.

You're in for a real treat if you believe in that whole "noble savage" nonsense. Hunter-gatherer groups (including your beloved Amerindians) commonly engaged in tribal warfare and often the denouement involved the slaughtering of all the enemy tribes males, with the sexual enslaving of the captured women. Indeed this all too human behaviour has been consecrated as holy by the great religions. Jared Diamond, a scientific hero of the political left who you'd no doubt admire, is rather honest here in his description of the nature of the tribalism of the ancient Israelites here in this book review:
"The Bible, especially the Old Testament, is full of exhortations to be cruel to heathens. Deuteronomy 20:10–18, for example, explains the obligation of the Israelites to practice genocide: when your army approaches a distant city, you should enslave all its inhabitants if it surrenders, and kill all its men and enslave its women and children and steal their cattle and everything else if it doesn't surrender. But if it's a city of the Canaanites or Hittites or any of those other abominable believers in false gods, then the true God commands you to kill everything that breathes in the city. The Book of Joshua describes approvingly how Joshua became a hero by carrying out those instructions, slaughtering all the inhabitants of over four hundred cities. The book of rabbinical commentaries known as the Talmud analyzes the potential ambiguities arising from conflicts between those two principles of "Thou shalt not kill [believers in thine own God]" and "Thou must kill [believers in another god]." For instance, according to some Talmudic commentators an Israelite is guilty of murder if he intentionally kills a fellow Israelite; is innocent if he intentionally kills a non-Israelite; and is also innocent if he kills an Israelite while throwing a stone into a group consisting of nine Israelites plus one heathen (because he might have been aiming at the one heathen)."

Here is a rather more interesting comment on his experiences with the natives of New Guinea
"Interestingly, among New Guineans, religion is never invoked to justify killing members of an out-group. Many of my New Guinean friends have described to me their participation in genocidal attacks on neighboring tribes. In all those accounts, I have never heard the slightest hint of any religious motive, of dying for God or the true religion, or of sacrificing oneself for any idealistic reason whatsoever."


The Prophet Mohammed, after defeating the Jewish Banu Qurayza tribe (who had betrayed him in a religious-tribal war, although I think any impartial observer might have expected that given Mohammeds incessant fanatical attempts to convert them), had all the males beheaded and the females taken as *** slaves, for example (Sahih al-Bukhari, 5:58:148). Arabic and Islam originated in a small corner of the Arabian peninsula; however, the Middle East and Northern Africa were once teeming with various Semitic, Indo-Iranian and other peoples and their cultures and languages. But today Arabic and Islam cover a continents worth area of that region, what do you think happened to all those peoples, their cultures and their languages?

The Abrahamic religions are not unique in their consecration of tribal warfare and tribal genocide. Hunter-gathers like Amerindians had their religious forms of genocide too, there are many anthropological accounts of Native American tribal warfare, I will indirectly describe just one for brevity. The great Biologist E.O. Wilson very eloquently describes one such case of the Mundurucu headhunters:
"War can be defined as the violent rupture of the intricate and powerful fabric of the territorial taboos observed by social groups. The force behind most warlike policies is ethnocentrism, the irrationally exaggerated allegiance of individuals to their kin and fellow tribesmen. In general, primitive men divide the world into two tangible parts, the near environment of home, local villages, kin, friends, tame animals, and witches, and the more distant universe of neighboring villages, intertribal allies, enemies, wild animals, and ghosts. This elemental topography makes easier the distinction between enemies who can be attacked and killed and friends who cannot. The contrast is heightened by reducing enemies to frightful and even sub* human status. The Mundurucu headhunters of Brazil made all these distinctions and in addition literally turned their enemies into game. The warriors spoke of the pariwat (non-Mundurucu.) in the same language ordinarily reserved for peccary and tapir. A high status was conferred on the taker of a human trophy head. He was believed to have attained special influence with the supernatural powers of the forest. Warfare was refined into a high art, in which other tribes were skillfully hunted as though they were packs of especially dangerous animals. The raids were planned with great care. In the cover of the pre* dawn darkness the Mundurucu men circled the enemy village, while their shaman quietly blew a sleep trance on the people within. The attack began at dawn. Incendiary arrows were shot onto the thatched houses, then the attackers ran screaming out of the forest into the village, chased the inhabitants into the open, and decapitated as many adult men and women as possible. Because annihilation of an entire village was difficult and risky, the attackers soon retreated with the heads of their victims. They proceeded on forced march as far as they could before resting, then headed home or on to the next enemy village." (On Human Nature, pages 110-111).

So you see, tribal genocide has often been practiced as a holy ritual throughout history by a lot of peoples, one thing that the European peoples at least did not do (the crusades were more mutual). Moreover, European peoples have actually been mild in imposing their own languages and cultures on other peoples compared to say, the Arabs and Muslims.

Finally, I think you do not understand the idea of genocide. See the holocaust is an example of an attempt at genocide: a deliberated attempt to "wipe out" a peoples from existence. Could you please explain to me how the Indian Removal Act was supposed to achieve that? I never said that Amerindian were not displaced from some of their lands, what I asserted was that there was no attempt to "wipe them out" as some of you have falsely claimed here. So Ill wait for that evidence again.

Brilliant post. I agree. Especially on the part about Europeans not shoving their culture/language down other people's throats as much as others did.
 

Scooby Doo

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Brilliant post. I agree. Especially on the part about Europeans not shoving their culture/language down other people's throats as much as others did.
Like, seriously? The history of Europe is just as full of ethnic cleansing, oppression of minorities and their culture/language. From hellenization/romanization, through the inquisition, till modern language laws, numerus clausus, the Soviet occupation of Eastern Europe, etc.
 

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We are all humans. People treat other races as if they were completely different species sometimes :/
 

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Like, seriously? The history of Europe is just as full of ethnic cleansing, oppression of minorities and their culture/language. From hellenization/romanization, through the inquisition, till modern language laws, numerus clausus, the Soviet occupation of Eastern Europe, etc.

Europe's current ethnic and linguistic diversity begs to differ. In another thread you mentioned that you preferred Islam to Christianity. Well maybe you can reconcile that opinion whilst you try to explain what happened to all the peoples that once inhabited the continent-large territory now known as the Arab world (in fact in terms of total area, this territory is not that much smaller than the entirety of Europe if you ignore Russia and Turkey, the later not belonging to Europe anyway).

Begin here


Also have a look at this, especially the section on the "western Iranian peoples"


Ill give you a clue
 

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Europe's current ethnic and linguistic diversity begs to differ. In another thread you mentioned that you preferred Islam to Christianity. Well maybe you can reconcile that opinion whilst you try to explain what happened to all the peoples that once inhabited the continent-large territory now known as the Arab world (in fact in terms of total area, this territory is not that much smaller than the entirety of Europe if you ignore Russia and Turkey, the later not belonging to Europe anyway).

Begin here


Also have a look at this, especially the section on the "western Iranian peoples"


Ill give you a clue

How does that change anything I said? How does that refute my claim that "The history of Europe is just as full of ethnic cleansing, oppression of minorities and their culture/language. From hellenization/romanization, through the inquisition, till modern language laws, numerus clausus, the Soviet occupation of Eastern Europe, etc." ?
My post in this thread had nothing to do with Islam. In the other thread, I was talking about my personal experience. Way to go mixing two unrelated statements to alter the meaning Lol I thought you are better than that.
I never denied that muslims also oppressed minorities, however even Bernard Lewis-whom I wouldn't call a fan of muslims- admits that "Muslim tolerance of unbelievers was far better than anything available in Christendom, until the rise of secularism in the 17th century."

And when did I deny the cultural/lingual diversity of Europe? I was talking about oppression and ethnic cleansing, which you are a fool if you deny.
 
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Prometheus Beta

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How does that change anything I said? How does that refute my claim that "The history of Europe is just as full of ethnic cleansing, oppression of minorities and their culture/language. From hellenization/romanization, through the inquisition, till modern language laws, numerus clausus, the Soviet occupation of Eastern Europe, etc." ?
My post in this thread had nothing to do with Islam. In the other thread, I was talking about my personal experience. Way to go mixing two unrelated statements to alter the meaning Lol I thought you are better than that.
I never denied that muslims also oppressed minorities, however even Bernard Lewis-whom I wouldn't call a fan of muslims- admits that "Muslim tolerance of unbelievers was far better than anything available in Christendom, until the rise of secularism in the 17th century."

And when did I deny the cultural/lingual diversity of Europe? I was talking about oppression and ethnic cleansing, which you are a fool if you deny.

It depends on what your claim was: if it was that Europeans were the worst in that regard, then my post is a case of what we call in Mathematics "proof by counterexample": Ive just demonstrated that Arabs alone were far worse than pretty much all Europeans combined as far as cultural/linguistic displacement is concerned.

PS: Bernard Lewis' claims and views on Islam are laughably "fluid" if you will: all that nice stuff when he was advising Bush on invading Iraq yet ironically, he was the main target of Edward Saids "Orientalism".
 
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Scooby Doo

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It depends on what your claim was: if it was that Europeans were the worst in that regard, then my post is a case of what we call in Mathematics "proof by counterexample": Ive just demonstrated that Arabs alone were far worse than pretty much all Europeans combined as far as cultural/linguistic displacement is concerned.

I never said Europeans were the worst so stop right there, putting words in my mouth.Whatever implications you read into my post is not my problem but that of your functional illiteracy.
 

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As an American, it's depressing to hear another American say that. 99.99% of us are immigrants or descendants of them.
 

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I never said Europeans were the worst so stop right there, putting words in my mouth.Whatever implications you read into my post is not my problem but that of your functional illiteracy.

Well your post wasn't very clear to begin with to be honest, "just as" (who were you referring to), but you're right, I was hasty in my reply. I think part of the problem is that European history is the only history most people are familiar with (since its so well documented). Oh and I just happened to remember an example of cultural/ethnic/linguistic displacement involving the East Asians. See, Indo-Iranian peoples once inhabited Central Asia (the Stan countries barring Afghanistan and Pakistan), not the Turkic peoples (a peoples related to the Mongols actually). Turkey itself is an interesting case of linguistic but not ethnic/cultural displacement, the Turks of Turkey speak a Turkic language but they are not ethnic Turks (like the Kazakhs, Kyrgyz etc).
 

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Well your post wasn't very clear to begin with to be honest, "just as" (who were you referring to), but you're right, I was hasty in my reply. I think part of the problem is that European history is the only history most people are familiar with (since its so well documented). Oh and I just happened to remember an example of cultural/ethnic/linguistic displacement involving the East Asians. See, Indo-Iranian peoples once inhabited Central Asia (the Stan countries barring Afghanistan and Pakistan), not the Turkic peoples (a peoples related to the Mongols actually). Turkey itself is an interesting case of linguistic but not ethnic/cultural displacement, the Turks of Turkey speak a Turkic language but they are not ethnic Turks (like the Kazakhs, Kyrgyz etc).

As you can see, I didn't quote you in my post you quoted later, but I quoted the guy who quoted you. That is because I didn't disagree with your post, it's just that the guy who quoted you, sounded as if Europeans never "shoved off their culture down others' throats". Other than that, I don't really like the debates when it comes to "who did worse, Christians/Europeans or Muslims/Arabs/Ottomans...etc". These are usually endless and pointless debates. We can debate on numbers, like who killed/deported more people. Yes, European history is more recorded, so we have more instances to be aware of the wrongdoings. Like the list of ethnic cleansings.
Or genocides.

I didn't count the numbers, but it's enough to show that Europeans have not much to be proud of in that regard. Which was the only purpose of my post. You asked, what happened to the Iranian and other peoples? Well, they are still present in smaller or bigger numbers. I could also argue that the diversity of the muslim world (~80% of muslims are not even Arabs) show that they didn't necessarily wipe out cultures systematically. Jews and Christians survived under their rule. In fact, at the dawn of the Arab conquest, Christian heretics had it worse under the Byzantine Empire .Many of them were assimilated, sure. Sometimes forcefully, sometimes naturally. Sure, there were times when genocides happened as well. But again, same goes for Europe. Did the Europeans do the worst? I didn't say that. Mao for example was worse than Stalin and Hitler together. The Japanese have much dirt on their hands as well. From earlier times, I could mention the mongols.
In short, I never said Europeans are the worst, but actually I could say that if I wanted to, going by number of kills. But origianlly I was talking about ethnic cleansing and cultural oppression, not killing.
 
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