[Discussion] Theses are the 7 People that Defeated Kaido

chopstickchakra

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Learning how to fight and use Haji is completely different.
What does that have to do with your quote or did you forget what I was quoting?

"Just because you stop training doesn't mean you got weaker it means you didn't get any stronger."

If you stop training you can/do get weaker than when you trained. If I can lift 50 lbs and train to lift 100 lbs then stop training after awhile I'll stop being able to pick up that 100lbs and it will continually decrease until I train more.

And if you want to think of it in the form of fighting;
If you train in Tae Kwan Do and reach black belt then stop training you'll lose some of the reflexes, intuition and knowledge and the longer you don't train the less you'll be able to do well.
 
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Nox

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What I said about Moriah being stronger in the past had absolutely nothing to do with the conversation of Moriah and Kaido being rivals, so congrats on wasting your time.

You would think a poster with a 50000+ posts and engaging in debate topics would have some semblance on comprehension and context.
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The discussion was brought about by the disagreement to the claim that Moriah once rivaled Kaido. After a juxtaposition of what rival dictates. You adamantly rebutted with the asinine notion that the former lack of consistency overwrote him. This is can only be presented as factual AFTER their battle. Events prior to that all have them in the realm of rivals as this is the essence of what piracy involves. The biggest selling point for this is that Moriah/Kaido in ages past were almost at equilibrium.

For the entirety of the discussion whether it be what a rival is or Moriah/Kaido you've been one dimensional. Try and operate multidimensional.
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If Moriah before Warlordship was strong in the past, it can be argued Kaido before the Strongest Creature was weaker. Now refer to what a rival the re-re-dismantling of your logic on what a rival is .


Your arguments have been
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Punk Hazard

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You would think a poster with a 50000+ posts and engaging in debate topics would have some semblance on comprehension and context.
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The discussion was brought about by the disagreement to the claim that Moriah once rivaled Kaido. After a juxtaposition of what rival dictates. You adamantly rebutted with the asinine notion that the former lack of consistency overwrote him. This is can only be presented as factual AFTER their battle. Events prior to that all have them in the realm of rivals as this is the essence of what piracy involves. The biggest selling point for this is that Moriah/Kaido in ages past were almost at equilibrium.

For the entirety of the discussion whether it be what a rival is or Moriah/Kaido you've been one dimensional. Try and operate multidimensional.
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If Moriah before Warlordship was strong in the past, it can be argued Kaido before the Strongest Creature was weaker. Now refer to what a rival the re-re-dismantling of your logic on what a rival is .


Your arguments have been
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***** what the **** are you talking about? I said Moriah had more strength when he fought Kaido than he had when he fought Luffy on Thriller Bark. That was completely independent of anything involving whether or not Kaido and Moriah are rivals. How strong Moriah was when he fought Kaido vs how strong he was when he fought Luffy has no effect on whether or not Kaido and Moriah were rivals. You really just love talking outta your ass.
 

Nox

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***** what the **** are you talking about?
The hell? I'm talking about the fade you received.
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You false idea on what a rival is? Big Fella Your comments on the legitimacy of TB Moriah vs TB Luffy rivalry? Big Fella Crocodiles rivalry to WB? Big Fella Failure to disprove Shanks/Buggy? Big Fella Cavendish/Nova? Big Fella All which are one side rivalries which disprove point. and and . Big Fella



I said Moriah had more strength when he fought Kaido than he had when he fought Luffy on Thriller Bark. That was completely independent of anything involving whether or not Kaido and Moriah are rivals. How strong Moriah was when he fought Kaido vs how strong he was when he fought Luffy has no effect on whether or not Kaido and Moriah were rivals. You really just love talking outta your ass.
1. The original argument was centered around you disagreeing that Moriah in the past could be called Kaido rival.
2.Your whole idea hinged on that given their meeting resulted in the former's lossmy statement was wrong in itself. Furthermore, you spouted the idea that a rivalry was consistency in competing.
3. Arguing that Moriah was not threat to Kaido so the rivalry was moot.
4. You follow up (to another poster) with the quoted bold.
5. To which I state if its ok to admit that Moriah was stronger (than TB Moriah) against Kaido. Its plausible Kaido (non WSC Kaido was weaker) and roughly comparable to him. Hence Oda's need to claim them going toe to toe at some point?
5. In which case as pirates, competing to claim One Piece (so much so in their "sole encounter" they were reputed nigh equals) Moriah and Kaido back then even as per you flawed sense of rivalry which is

......OBJECTIVELY (False but lets roll with it), a rivalry is two (False again) or more people (Kaido/Moriah) within the same or similar fields (Pirates) actively competing with one another (One Piece) on a close level (Rumored went Toe to Toe). This is not the case for Moriah and Kaido (You just played yourself)
6. Yet you gone act the points in bold don't counter clash with italiced? (Big Fella the exist is dat way?
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#shoutoutmigos




 

Punk Hazard

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The hell? I'm talking about the fade you received.
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You false idea on what a rival is? Big Fella Your comments on the legitimacy of TB Moriah vs TB Luffy rivalry? Big Fella Crocodiles rivalry to WB? Big Fella Failure to disprove Shanks/Buggy? Big Fella Cavendish/Nova? Big Fella All which are one side rivalries which disprove point. and and . Big Fella





1. The original argument was centered around you disagreeing that Moriah in the past could be called Kaido rival.
2.Your whole idea hinged on that given their meeting resulted in the former's lossmy statement was wrong in itself. Furthermore, you spouted the idea that a rivalry was consistency in competing.
3. Arguing that Moriah was not threat to Kaido so the rivalry was moot.
4. You follow up (to another poster) with the quoted bold.
5. To which I state if its ok to admit that Moriah was stronger (than TB Moriah) against Kaido. Its plausible Kaido (non WSC Kaido was weaker) and roughly comparable to him. Hence Oda's need to claim them going toe to toe at some point?
5. In which case as pirates, competing to claim One Piece (so much so in their "sole encounter" they were reputed nigh equals) Moriah and Kaido back then even as per you flawed sense of rivalry which is



6. Yet you gone act the points in bold don't counter clash with italiced? (Big Fella the exist is dat way?
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#shoutoutmigos




I'm not reading all of this since you're being hella retarded. I'ma leave it at three points:

1. I said Moriah was stronger when he fought Kaido than when he fought Luffy. That has nothing to do with whether or not Kaido and Moriah were rivals. That statement can be true regardless of whether or not Kaido and Moiah were ever rivals

2. Kaido and Moriah weren't actively competing with each other. They fought once that we know of. Fighting one time doesn't mean active competition. Luffy fought toe to toe with Enel and Crocodile once, but they aren't rivals, now are they?
 

chopstickchakra

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I'm not reading all of this since you're being hella retarded. I'ma leave it at three points:

1. I said Moriah was stronger when he fought Kaido than when he fought Luffy. That has nothing to do with whether or not Kaido and Moriah were rivals. That statement can be true regardless of whether or not Kaido and Moiah were ever rivals

2. Kaido and Moriah weren't actively competing with each other. They fought once that we know of. Fighting one time doesn't mean active competition. Luffy fought toe to toe with Enel and Crocodile once, but they aren't rivals, now are they?
That's two points and Croc yes, Enel no.
 

Punk Hazard

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Rival pirates.
My third point directly relates to this. If two people with pretty much no connection like Luffy and Crocodile can be rivals, then where's the value of the word? By this logic, some dude stuck in some bum-**** ocean is Luffy's rival too. By this logic, any weak piece of shit barely out their diapers are Kaido's rival too because they're "rival pirates" and both may want to be Pirate King. The concept of a rival becomes ****ing useless by you lot.
 

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Because you're a toddler if you think Shanks and Kaido had a real fight and Shanks won before he came to Marineford.
It was clearly said that Kaido was defeated by Yonkos and the only Yonko so far stated in the manga which clashed with Kaido is Shanks.
Now there are lots if possibility how shanks might have stopped Kaido. He got long range attacks(Heaven/cloud splitting attack) which could have easily destroyed Kaido's ship or part of it in a Naval battle. This can be consider as a defeat.

That's not hiding that's bribing, if they knew where he was to be bribed than he wasn't hiding well. Moriah refused to go to a place where Kaido might find him, that's hiding from someone. Moriah wasn't paying off Kaido to not kill him, they aren't the same thing, that's not apples to apples.
Can I ask u why Arlong was bribing that officer? Its quite obvious that officer was keeping his records clean. When another Marine ship came at Nami's island Arlong immediately send his men and killed everyone. He was enjoying privileges which doffy enjoyed and he was not even a shichibukai. If that marine had reported Arlong captured Nami's island then Vice admirals would have come there to stop Arlong(as seen in Alabasta and Dressrosa).
 
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chopstickchakra

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My third point directly relates to this. If two people with pretty much no connection like Luffy and Crocodile can be rivals, then where's the value of the word? By this logic, some dude stuck in some bum-**** ocean is Luffy's rival too. By this logic, any weak piece of shit barely out their diapers are Kaido's rival too because they're "rival pirates" and both may want to be Pirate King. The concept of a rival becomes ****ing useless by you lot.
There was no third point

You're arguing against the literal definition of the word. This aspect of they need to be on equal levels of capability to be rivals is not true.

One sided rivalries;


Those are all examples of rivalries where one side was out classed, yet a rivalry still exists. Luffy may beat Croc every time they meet but if they keep meeting and conflicting in pursuit of being the dominant pirate on the sea then yes by definition they are rivals. And there's fighting rivalries that are one sided too if you don't want to accept the sports analogy like Shamrock vs Ortiz where Ortiz won all 3 fights easily yet it's recognized as a rivalry.

And for the record no, not every pirate would be his rival only those after the same thing or seeking to defeat him. A pirate looking to rule a small sea, not his rival, a pirate like WB or Shanks who aren't interested in OP, not a rival etc.
 

Punk Hazard

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There was no third point
Oh for God's sake...

You're arguing against the literal definition of the word. This aspect of they need to be on equal levels of capability to be rivals is not true.

One sided rivalries;


Those are all examples of rivalries where one side was out classed, yet a rivalry still exists. Luffy may beat Croc every time they meet but if they keep meeting and conflicting in pursuit of being the dominant pirate on the sea then yes by definition they are rivals. And there's fighting rivalries that are one sided too if you don't want to accept the sports analogy like Shamrock vs Ortiz where Ortiz won all 3 fights easily yet it's recognized as a rivalry.

And for the record no, not every pirate would be his rival only those after the same thing or seeking to defeat him. A pirate looking to rule a small sea, not his rival, a pirate like WB or Shanks who aren't interested in OP, not a rival etc.
True. Then by this logic, the millions of pirates also after the One Piece are also Kaido's rivals. Therefore, Moriah being Kaido's rival loses all meaning anyways. Brilliant.
 

chopstickchakra

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It was clearly said that Kaido was defeated by Yonkos and the only Yonko so far stated in the manga which clashed with Kaido is Shanks.
Now there are lots if possibility how shanks might have stopped Kaido. He got long range attacks(Heaven/cloud splitting attack) which could have easily destroyed Kaido's ship or part of it in a Naval battle. This can be consider as a defeat.



Can I ask u why Arlong was bribing that officer? Its quite obvious that officer was keeping his records clean. When another Marine ship came at Nami's island Arlong immediately send his men and killed everyone. He was enjoying privileges which doffy enjoyed and he was not even a shichibukai. If that marine had reported Arlong captured Nami's island then Vice admirals would have come there to stop Arlong(as seen in Alabasta and Dressrosa).
So let me get this straight, he kills some marines and pays some other ones off to keep it quiet while he stays on the island he killed them at and you think that shows he's scared of them? Like how Al Capone was scared of the Chicago PD I guess? He turned an entire island into his own home with his name on it and you call it hiding in fear? Sure.
 

chopstickchakra

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Oh for God's sake...



True. Then by this logic, the millions of pirates also after the One Piece are also Kaido's rivals. Therefore, Moriah being Kaido's rival loses all meaning anyways. Brilliant.
If that's how narrowly you choose to look at then it is what it is. There's levels of rivalries, no ones arguing some people aren't closer rivals to some than others. Law's a closer rival than Buggy to Luffy but both are rivals. Moriah's a rival to Kaido but BB's a closer rival. Zoro's a rival to Mihawk but Shank's is closer.
 

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So let me get this straight, he kills some marines and pays some other ones off to keep it quiet while he stays on the island he killed them at and you think that shows he's scared of them?
He was defeated by VA kizaru and sent to Impel Down. He was released because of Jinbei.He very well knew Jinbei is not going to help him again if he gets capture by marines.
Then he went to East Blue and planned to rule it. He knew very well that if marines knew about his plan then he will face strong VA level guys again(and he was not prepared to face them at that point of time).

Like how Al Capone was scared of the Chicago PD I guess?
U are using real life logic. Real life logic doesnot works in Mangaverse. We already saw Rayleigh who is like in late 70's have a body like this
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not to forgotton that he started working as coating mechanic after Roger died. So if we use real life logic then he shouldn't have a body like that(since it was never said that he continued training and lifting weights).
Even somebody like WB kept on fighting after getting a heart attack in mid of a f***in war. How the hell can somebody keep fighting after a heart attack???

He turned an entire island into his own home with his name on it and you call it hiding in fear? Sure.
He didn't changed Nami's island name. I think it was his palace which was named Arlong Park. As far as i remember Nami's village was still name cocoyashi.
And just because some random fodder found him and he started bribing him means he wasn't hiding well then I guess Moria was also not hiding because so many fodders found his island.
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not to forgotton even a shichibukai easily found him(what makes u think Kaido can't find this guy if he was serious?)
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Punk Hazard

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If that's how narrowly you choose to look at then it is what it is. There's levels of rivalries, no ones arguing some people aren't closer rivals to some than others. Law's a closer rival than Buggy to Luffy but both are rivals. Moriah's a rival to Kaido but BB's a closer rival. Zoro's a rival to Mihawk but Shank's is closer.
No there isn't lol. Law and Buggy aren't rivals to any degree. The "levels" of rivalries don't get that low.

The only people looking at it narrowmindely are you and Bino since apparently the entire population of pirates are each other's rivals now
 

chopstickchakra

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He was defeated by VA kizaru and sent to Impel Down. He was released because of Jinbei.He very well knew Jinbei is not going to help him again if he gets capture by marines.
Then he went to East Blue and planned to rule it. He knew very well that if marines knew about his plan then he will face strong VA level guys again(and he was not prepared to face them at that point of time).
You're right about ID but if he was scared of the Marines catching him and going back to ID he'd be mobile and staying on the move not setting up shop on one island and building a giant building in your name that the Marines can easily find. Even Moriah stayed mobile while he was running/hiding from Moriah. You can't call it hiding if you're not moving and advertising where you're staying.

There's also this bit about Arlong Park on the wikia;
Arlong Park was the Arlong Pirates' base of operations. It was located on Conomi Islands. This building, boasting several stories and their Jolly Roger at the top, was conspicuously placed at the coast to show that they had no fear of the law.[1] Plus the fact that he threatened to kill any marine who threatened Nezumi so he's obviously not so scared of the marines that he won't kill some where on the other hand Moriah won't think about attacking one of Kaido's subordinates for fear of Kaido's retaliation.

U are using real life logic. Real life logic doesnot works in Mangaverse. We already saw Rayleigh who is like in late 70's have a body like this
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not to forgotton that he started working as coating mechanic after Roger died. So if we use real life logic then he shouldn't have a body like that(since it was never said that he continued training and lifting weights).
Even somebody like WB kept on fighting after getting a heart attack in mid of a f***in war. How the hell can somebody keep fighting after a heart attack???
It's not just real life logic it's common logic, if you're killing some of a group and bribing others of that same group to keep it quiet and they do then that's a very poor example of being afraid of that group.

Also you're comparing a manga with known odd proportions to real life proportions so if I can't use real life logic why do you get to use manga drawings as actual representations of the human body? There are 70 year old people in great shape that's not unrealistic.

There's levels of heart attacks, people can still do stuff after having a heart attack depending on the severity and the individual.

He didn't changed Nami's island name. I think it was his palace which was named Arlong Park. As far as i remember Nami's village was still name cocoyashi.

Nami's village was cocoyashi yes but the island it was on was renamed Arlong Park once he took it over.
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And just because some random fodder found him and he started bribing him means he wasn't hiding well then I guess Moria was also not hiding because so many fodders found his island.
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not to forgotton even a shichibukai easily found him(what makes u think Kaido can't find this guy if he was serious?)
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You're comparing two different things and calling it apples to apples. You claim Arlong was scared of the Marines and hiding from them, I claim Moriah was scared of Kaido and hiding from him and somehow you equate Arlong bribing and killing those he's "hiding" from to Moriah killing random pirates who have no affiliation to Kaido. Ok?

Because Kaido isn't interested in going back into the GL which is what Moriah was relying on. He believed Kaido wouldn't chase him where he went, Arlong knew the Marines would still be after him even in East Blue. At least compare apples to apples.
 

chopstickchakra

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No there isn't lol. Law and Buggy aren't rivals to any degree. The "levels" of rivalries don't get that low.

The only people looking at it narrowmindely are you and Bino since apparently the entire population of pirates are each other's rivals now
Once again since you seemed to miss it the first time. No not every pirate is a rival to each other if they aren't pursuing the same goal or pursuing a victory over each other. For any pirate going after OP any pirate content on staying in GL is not a rival. So you can keep throwing around "every pirate is each other's rival" like it's a valid point trying to marginalize the definition of the word but you're the only one actually saying that. And it wouldn't really be every pirate either it'd be every pirate captain. So go ahead and continue trying to downplay it by being hyperbolic.

You also misread my post, I said Law is a rival to Luffy and so is Buggy but Law is a closer rival than Buggy is. Law is a rival in piracy searching for OP and Buggy is a personal rival searching for victory over Luffy. Both are Luffy's rivals. You can have friendly rivalries too so don't bother coming with that an ally can't be a rival. Since Buggy doesn't seem to really be after OP(seems content having his piece of the pie plus he's looking for that treasure Luffy gave him the bracelet to find) then he and Law aren't really rivals

I'd also like to point out by what definition is it narrow to include more people? You actually just called being more inclusive narrow minded. Bravo.
 
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