[Discussion] There was no huge battle with Kaguya, Hagormo and Hamura.

[Torche]

Hi!

Title says it. I think that we are all forgetting one important detail. Hagoromo and Hamura used Ninshu which wasn't for fighting wars. So how could they fight their mother with Ninshu? This would also explain why Hagoromo became the Jinchuuriki. They just sealed the Juubi, but Hagoromo stated that they battled the Juubi. Do the Rinnegan Jutsu not actually count as Jutsu? Are they are Ninshu? How else could they battle it yet claim to have not used Ninjutsu?

Another thing, I believe that Kaguya invented Ninjutsu.

Spoiler

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This begs the question, how did the two brother's even fight her? Or did they just simply seal her? Or was it not the brothers that even fought her to begin with?

EDIT - The human's created Ninjutsu, she weaponized it with pure Chakra Manipulation Tenchniques, I didn't take that into account. This would give Humans the Idea of Ninjutsu, so she indirectly created it.

Discuss.

 

[The Amazing Spider Man]

The brothers learned jutsu from their mother. Then they fought here. That simple.

 

[DeadManWonderLand]

I agree
Hogoromo never once implied or hinted at having ill feelings toward his mother.
Everyone so far in their attempt to forged world peace has failed even the sages way failed.
So,i also don't believe they ever fought.
My theory suggest the opposite,that they were brought up to defeat the beast in her stead.

 

[DeadManWonderLand]

The brothers learned jutsu from their mother. Then they fought here. That simple.

Ninjustu was used by humans when they mixed both their psychical and spiritual energy together.
Hogoromo used ninshu.
Kaguya doesn't use ninjustu either she straight up manipulates the land and skies.

Note that the byakugan was around before ninja which predates ninjustu

 

[Itachi4life]

Kaguya is Kaguya. Logic doesn't apply to her.

 

[Callypigia]

I agree that Hagoromo never insinuated that he fought his mother. He just said people loved her, and later feared her. It can than be assumed that she probably ended up getting dementia and Hamura died because of hypertension or dyslipidimia.

 

[Torche]

I agree
Hogoromo never once implied or hinted at having ill feelings toward his mother.
Everyone so far in their attempt to forged world peace has failed even the sages way failed.
So,i also don't believe they ever fought.
My theory suggest the opposite,that they were brought up to defeat the beast in her stead.

Ninjustu was used by humans when they mixed both their psychical and spiritual energy together.
Hogoromo used ninshu.
Kaguya doesn't use ninjustu either she straight up manipulates the land and skies.

Note that the byakugan was around before ninja which predates ninjustu

Thanks you and I'll read your theory tomorrow! I thought that I had answered the other guys statement in the panel provided.. he clearly didn't read the topic. I guess that would make sense about her not using Ninjutsu, she doesn't need to like you stated. Interesting.

 

[Torche]

I agree that Hagoromo never insinuated that he fought his mother. He just said people loved her, and later feared her. It can than be assumed that she probably ended up getting dementia and Hamura died because of hypertension or dyslipidimia.

Thank you, I'm eager to hear about what actually went down.

 

[Angelic.]

we still dont know wats up with kaguya being the shinju or maybe juubi. im not going to jump to conclusions on what her sons did to her... maybe they sealed her?

 

[Torche]

we still dont know wats up with kaguya being the shinju or maybe juubi. im not going to jump to conclusions on what her sons did to her... maybe they sealed her?

Yeah, not sure.

 

[JustAnotherNarutoFan]

You made some good points, there are several unknown variables in it especially Hamura and the Juubi.

If the theories are right that Hamura is the birthfather of Uzumaki and Hyuuga Clan then for all we know he could have been a sealing master. That would close so many gaps in our knowledge and open the possibility that he sealed the Juubi into his brother and then died from the effort.

The other thing that makes no sense as right now is where the Juubi came from. Kaguya ate the Fruit, which held ALL chakra. Then she used IT and the remnants of the Shinju to "rule" the world. So from where would have the Juubi be able to spawn?

 

[ShinjuMadara]

They learned to fight from their mother, and then they betrayed her. Unless Kaguya tried to kill them first for whatever reason, like those stories you hear about moms trying to drown their toddlers

 

[Seventh Sama]

Well they had to fight her if she's the juubi..

 

[Torche]

Well they had to fight her if she's the juubi..

That's a big stretch and a big if.

This is why I don't think that kaguya is the fruit, the Juubi or the Shinju.

Spoiler

She came to the land from a far away place TO PICK THE FRUIT. She can't pick herself. The Shinju couldn't pick itself. The Juubi wasn't around at this time. She also came from a far off land. She ate the fruit and gained the power to rule over the land. She gained Chakra but, more specifically the third eye, she could rule them with Chakra or with the Mugen Tsukiyomi. The Shinju could have ruled the humans without Kaguya, all it had to do was bloom it's flower and eye. It wasn't interested in ruling the humans.

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Spoiler

The fruit didn't contain all of the Chakra, the Shinju itself still held some, unless it took it's time and regathered Natural Energy to become the Juubi. The Shinju turned Juubi struggled to get it's Chakra back which was stolen. Kaguya stole the fruit, she stole the Chakra, she couldn't steal her own power if she was the Shinju, Juubi or fruit. Neither would she be mad. He refers to His mother, the Juubi and the Shinju separately, they are all technically not the one and the same thing.

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Spoiler

If a person had too much power they become obsessed with it. Kaguya was a being whom after the consumption of the fruit gained a divine power and a thirst for it. The Shinju was originally in possession of it's power, why would it take it's own fruit? It's obsessed with that power, but if it was the only one with that power, why take it away?

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I could be wrong about it, but that is pretty strong evidence.

All of this still doesn't change the fact that you can't fight with Ninshu, unless the Rikudou no Jutsu are the exception.

Note: maybe I should make that part a theory thread..?

 

[Seventh Sama]

That's a big stretch and a big if.

This is why I don't think that kaguya is the fruit, the Juubi or the Shinju.

Spoiler

She came to the land from a far away place TO PICK THE FRUIT. She can't pick herself. The Shinju couldn't pick itself. The Juubi wasn't around at this time. She also came from a far off land. She ate the fruit and gained the power to rule over the land. She gained Chakra but, more specifically the third eye, she could rule them with Chakra or with the Mugen Tsukiyomi. The Shinju could have ruled the humans without Kaguya, all it had to do was bloom it's flower and eye. It wasn't interested in ruling the humans.

You must be registered for see images

Spoiler

The fruit didn't contain all of the Chakra, the Shinju itself still held some, unless it took it's time and regathered Natural Energy to become the Juubi. The Shinju turned Juubi struggled to get it's Chakra back which was stolen. Kaguya stole the fruit, she stole the Chakra, she couldn't steal her own power if she was the Shinju, Juubi or fruit. Neither would she be mad. He refers to His mother, the Juubi and the Shinju separately, they are all technically not the one and the same thing.

You must be registered for see images

Spoiler

If a person had too much power they become obsessed with it. Kaguya was a being whom after the consumption of the fruit gained a divine power and a thirst for it. The Shinju was originally in possession of it's power, why would it take it's own fruit? It's obsessed with that power, but if it was the only one with that power, why take it away?

You must be registered for see images

I could be wrong about it, but that is pretty strong evidence.

All of this still doesn't change the fact that you can't fight with Ninshu, unless the Rikudou no Jutsu are the exception.

Note: maybe I should make that part a theory thread..?

please tell me. If kaguya isn't the juubi then why didnt she fight it herself? It's pretty obvious she would if they were separate entities. .. she must've transformed into the juubi when she lost control. How she downgraded in power is a mystery. ..

 

[Torche]

please tell me. If kaguya isn't the juubi then why didnt she fight it herself? It's pretty obvious she would if they were separate entities. .. she must've transformed into the juubi when she lost control. How she downgraded in power is a mystery. ..

Perhaps she was already dead at that point? Maybe she would have tried to take more of it's power and Hagoromo became the Jinchuuriki to prevent that. The Juubi is the Incarnation of the Shinju, not the Shinju's power (Which Kaguya had).

 

[Angelic.]

what happened to kaguya before the juubi showed up? we dont know.

 

[Seventh Sama]

Perhaps she was already dead at that point? Maybe she would have tried to take more of it's power and Hagoromo became the Jinchuuriki to prevent that. The Juubi is the Incarnation of the Shinju, not the Shinju's power (Which Kaguya had).

Doubt it but we'll see in the upcoming chapters...

 

[Torche]

Doubt it but we'll see in the upcoming chapters...

It'll be interesting to see what actually went down.

 

[KCMNaruto]

Actually it is pretty simple.

1) Hagoromo despised Ninjutsu and corrected it right away when naruto claimed sage is inventor of ninjutsu
2) Naruto current power recieved from Hagoromo is called "Senjutsu of six paths" strong hint that hagoromo was senjutsu user
3) Hagoromo knew about ninjutsu during meeting with Naruto. So even if he despised ninjutsu he still could use ninjutsu well he could use it very well with his high skills.
4) Hagoromo was first born with chakra inside him. It shows Hagoromo posses similliar to kaguya powers.

summary: hagoromo was ninshu user but when he was forced then he utilized senjutsu and ninjutsu in deadly way.

About juubi and kaguya:

1) Juubi could be all power kaguya had from fruit leaving her body taking on form of juubi.
2) Kaguya was corrupted and possesed by chakra fruit transforming in juubi
3) Kaguya created her juubi herself from her power to test her sons but somrhow shinjuu overtook control of juubi most likely merging with it.
Kaguya suffered unable to fight for a while or wanted to see her sons fighting

It is also possible that Kaguya wanted to get rid of Hamura who formed close bonds with humans affecting hagoromo who initially supporrted her. After death of hamura against juubi Hagoromo meet mother foundingout that his mother would kill hamura if he didnt die against juubi. It caused for Hagoromo to finally stpp following his mother ending in fighting her and damaging her high but unable to kill sealed her