[Spoilers] Theory: The Founder of Akatsuki and the one who controlled Yagura was not Madara

[supino]

well, we do not know exactly the background of Akatsuki, but given the ages of the head figures Obito is younger than Yahiko, Konan and Nagato almost by a decade. which means that by the time akatsuki was founded in amegakure Obito might not even had met Madara yet.

which either means that Obito blatantly lied to Konan (and i can't really discredit her memories, she was definitely honest about her past), or that he said a half-truth. could it be that Madara had a way to exit the cave for a little while? maybe. for example, there was this mysterious jutsu that Kisame and Itachi had used. maybe Madara could be using it.... to run some errands.

 

[kiros23]

could it be that Madara had a way to exit the cave for a little while? maybe. for example, there was this mysterious jutsu that Kisame and Itachi had used. maybe Madara could be using it.... to run some errands.

ya maybe...

 

[TobiOrNotTobi]

How could Madara have possibly been any of the masked men as we see him when Obito is hurt Madara is very old almost dying and cannot leave the Mazou without dying.
So who's wrong again??????

I smell a troll

I never stated that the long haired masked man is Madara, did i?

I just don't think it's enough to take the "hair can grow/change over time"-info as a base to explain that the long haired masked man is Obito.

Also, he did just that so that people would believe him more in him being Madara? I'm sorry but he declared war at the Kage summit and exposed himself to them as Madara yet he had short hair? Why cut it then? Because he got tired of it and that's what people normaly do?

No, i don't buy that.

IMO there is more to it.

 

[Higekage]

I never stated that the long haired masked man is Madara, did i?

I just don't think it's enough to take the "hair can grow/change over time"-info as a base to explain that the long haired masked man is Obito.

Also, he did just that so that people would believe him more in him being Madara? I'm sorry but he declared war at the Kage summit and exposed himself to them as Madara yet he had short hair? Why cut it then? Because he got tired of it and that's what people normaly do?

No, i don't buy that.

IMO there is more to it.

Who would it be if not Obito? It wouldn't make any sense.. Why would Obito be Tobi in the kyuubi attack and then 8 years later he's not Tobi anymore and then when Naruto shippuuden starts Obito is Tobi again..

 

[thegame]

1st I will say, and this is 100 % sure. Obito did not create Akatsuki. Do I even need to prove it? Nagato about same age, probably a bit older than Minato. His parrents died in the 2nd war. In the 3rd war we saw from Nagatos memory that Hanzo killed Yahiko. Obito was still in team Minato, and he didn't even have sharingan at this time. But then who? Yes that is a good debate, and I have made it before.

Regarding Yagura... I don't really know why you use this sort of "bad" evidence to tell us that the one who controlled Yagura was Obito, it's already sure that it couldn't have been Madara. I can prove this from the manga. We know Kisame was approached by a guy with 1 sharingan claiming to be Madara. Before this we also saw Kisame being approached by Ibiki and other Konoha shinobis, where Kisame killed his comrades. In Obitos memory we see Ibiki is taking the chunin exam. You do the math. Was it someone else than Obito? Doubtfully, since Obito showed his face to Kisame later, and he recognized him.

The only other persons capable of doing it would be Itachi or Danzo. It did happen the same year as the Uchiha massacre, but did Danzo learn to use KA that shortly? Doubtfully. It leaves just Itachi and Obito. I wont say it couldn't have been Itachi, and we could probably analyse some motives for him to do it. But his hair is nothing like what we saw, however, the one who helped Itachi with the Uchiha Massacre had the same hair as the one Kisame met. So it ain't Itachi either. Leaves just Obito, from what we know, we can't find facts that it should be anyone else.

 

[Draxus]

There is no way that madara was the one contolling the 4th Mizukage he just said it himself in the last chapter he couldn't leave where he was at becasue he would die

:flaw: :flaw: :flaw: :flaw:

Well he was obviously not always in the state. If you believe that he gave Nagato the rinnegan he must have been able to move freely for a time after the VoTE.

The bloody mist era was going on just before or at the same time as the war where Obito "died", if you take into consideration the age of Zabuza. Also Akatsuki began around that time as Nagato and the others were teens/young adults when it was started.

 

[kiros23]

1st I will say, and this is 100 % sure. Obito did not create Akatsuki. Do I even need to prove it? Nagato about same age, probably a bit older than Minato. His parrents died in the 2nd war. In the 3rd war we saw from Nagatos memory that Hanzo killed Yahiko. Obito was still in team Minato, and he didn't even have sharingan at this time. But then who? Yes that is a good debate, and I have made it before.

Your analysis was good but maybe you still need to prove it so that others and like me will be enlightened...=)

I'm not sure if you are referring to yahiko you've just give us a hint =)

Before you give your 100% ideas about who created the akatsuki can you kindly give your thoughts about this link

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maybe itachi was lying when he said about madara ESTABLISH akatsuki or maybe it is a wrong translation? in Thesaurus dictionary the word create = establish(in synonyms) and the word SPURRED is not equal to establish/create right?

 

[Draxus]

Itachi wasn't lying. He thought Obito/Tobi was Madara just like Minato did.

 

[kiros23]

Itachi wasn't lying. He thought Obito/Tobi was Madara just like Minato did.

I've also thought that but maybe we were wrong..lets give "thegame" a chance to give his ideas..Im pretty sure he have a bright ideas about what itachi said...=)

 

[Ryan Ensign]

It's already confirmed that both the Tobi with short hair as well as the Tobi with long hair are Obito. It couldn't have been Madara, he'd die if he tried to move too far.

 

[edo tensai wilmaso]

2. Lmao!!!! Where the hell does it state he formed the original Akatsuki?! OBITO DID! Obito Re-invented himself as Madara! Get your fact's straight man. He was long gone when the akatsuki era began.

3. OBITO controlled Yagura. Again, Refer to statement #2.

5. Okay, so Madara show's his face to kisame then all of a sudden show's it again and It's the same face. Like that all makes sense to you right? You should know that if He showed his face back than with long hair, obviously it would be him with short hair OBITO

6. IT WAS OBITO TO BEGIN WITH! Nagato was a baby when Madara gave him those eye's. When he met obito he's an old man confined in an underground tunnel with cables stuck to him. How do you define that increased aged gap?

What the hell are you even talking about? I feel you're trolling to the max. Especially on your closing statement.:flaw:

Why can't people understand that Obito took on the personality of two individuals? Him and Madara. The man had one mission and that was the Moon Eye Plan that brain washed Obito. Chances are he believed he was Madara so much, that he actually felt like it. I also highly doubt he had any plans on bringing him back. Otherwise, that could've been fulfilled LONG TIME AGO. Before Nagato decided to even attack Konoha.

they could not bring madara back before because tobi did not have all the tailed beast. the time differences are there .... i dont know at what time was that scene when they went back at kisame flashback im pretty sure it was tobi. I dont think tobi actually considered himself to be marada it just gave him credibility and a name that people fear, so thier mission go go along a bit easier , he told kisame he was madara so there could be that fear in him and to show his power also not to disobey, didnt you see how relieved he was once tobi sowed kisame his face. like"oh now that i know its you i feel better about the plan"

 

[6PathsofKami]

Imo Madara wasnt completely dependant on the mazo when he told Yahiko/Nagato to form Akatsuki so no it wasnt Obito who did that. Later on Madara became completely dependant on the mazo to the point where he couldnt leave thats when he asked Obito to do all that he did as the masked men. Kishi made this obvious with the current chapters, all masked men were Obito. Why do you think the masked men wore a mask with a hole only for the right eye? Its because Obito doesnt have one and we know Madara doesnt have a right eye but has a left eye now imagine Madara wearing that mask looool he cant see sh!t.

 

[TurrinB]

It's possible but I still think it's going to turn out to be Madara behind everything.

 

[thegame]

Your analysis was good but maybe you still need to prove it so that others and like me will be enlightened...=)

I'm not sure if you are referring to yahiko you've just give us a hint =)

Before you give your 100% ideas about who created the akatsuki can you kindly give your thoughts about this link

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maybe itachi was lying when he said about madara ESTABLISH akatsuki or maybe it is a wrong translation? in Thesaurus dictionary the word create = establish(in synonyms) and the word SPURRED is not equal to establish/create right?

The translation of spurred would be the same as; Madara encouraged Yahiko to start Akatsuki; so it is not the same as creating. When obito said it, he might just have ment that Madara did something that made Yahiko create Akatsuki. The only thing we know he did, was creating war between the other nations and Konoha, we saw it when he fought Mu and Onoki, he said they were no longer allies, but this is just too far back, although in the end that was what made Ame and Kusa large battle grounds.

But I think he did more afterwards, but we still doesn't have enough info, so it would just be guessing. If you want me to prove that it couldn't be Obito... Well I would have to find the scene of Yahikos death, but the best place to start, is where Yahikos dream "began", if we were to analyse how Madara made him start akatsuki as well:

Spoiler

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Him and Nagato talked about ruling the world, etc., and then by mistake Nagatos dog was killed due to the war. That is when Yahiko got his anticipation, although I doubt Madara had anything to do with that lol.. And remember this is at the same time as Jiraya, Tsunade and Oro is fighting Hanzo, it's shown in same chapter..

Jiraya stayed to train them for 3 years, then he left, and they started Akatsuki:

Spoiler

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Later Yahiko was killed in the trap Hanzo set for them. I cannot see where along the line, even how many times I read this chapters that Kishi left any clues pointing on how Madara encouraged Yahiko to start Akatsuki.
Yahiko made a promise to his parents when they died that he would stay alive and search for peace. The best clue is the fact that Oro also met yahiko and nagato, if Oro was later approached by Madara, maybe zetsu or a clone, then it is possible Madara offered him something to make him do something to yahiko, but there is too little evidence so far.

 

[kiros23]

The translation of spurred would be the same as; Madara encouraged Yahiko to start Akatsuki; so it is not the same as creating. When obito said it, he might just have ment that Madara did something that made Yahiko create Akatsuki. The only thing we know he did, was creating war between the other nations and Konoha, we saw it when he fought Mu and Onoki, he said they were no longer allies, but this is just too far back, although in the end that was what made Ame and Kusa large battle grounds.

But I think he did more afterwards, but we still doesn't have enough info, so it would just be guessing. If you want me to prove that it couldn't be Obito... Well I would have to find the scene of Yahikos death, but the best place to start, is where Yahikos dream "began", if we were to analyse how Madara made him start akatsuki as well:

Spoiler

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Him and Nagato talked about ruling the world, etc., and then by mistake Nagatos dog was killed due to the war. That is when Yahiko got his anticipation, although I doubt Madara had anything to do with that lol.. And remember this is at the same time as Jiraya, Tsunade and Oro is fighting Hanzo, it's shown in same chapter..

Jiraya stayed to train them for 3 years, then he left, and they started Akatsuki:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

Later Yahiko was killed in the trap Hanzo set for them. I cannot see where along the line, even how many times I read this chapters that Kishi left any clues pointing on how Madara encouraged Yahiko to start Akatsuki.
Yahiko made a promise to his parents when they died that he would stay alive and search for peace. The best clue is the fact that Oro also met yahiko and nagato, if Oro was later approached by Madara, maybe zetsu or a clone, then it is possible Madara offered him something to make him do something to yahiko, but there is too little evidence so far.

Your story was good and I know that the word SPURRED was in your mind that's why I capitalized it...I guess I'm good in guessing though...=)

Anyways back to my question about this link

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I want to hear your answer... can you give your thoughts about this? Is itachi lying or the translation of the word ESTABLISH was wrong? maybe the translator was wrong and it could be SPURRED...what do you think?

 

[MilwaukeegHost]

The masked man could have EASILY been a clone of Madara with the Gedo Plant. Madara (elder) was growing many clone bodies off of that plant.

 

[thegame]

Your story was good and I know that the word SPURRED was in your mind that's why I capitalized it...I guess I'm good in guessing though...=)

Anyways back to my question about this link

You must be registered for see links

I want to hear your answer... can you give your thoughts about this? Is itachi lying or the translation of the word ESTABLISH was wrong? m

 

[thegame]

Your story was good and I know that the word SPURRED was in your mind that's why I capitalized it...I guess I'm good in guessing though...=)

Anyways back to my question about this link

You must be registered for see links

I want to hear your answer... can you give your thoughts about this? Is itachi lying or the translation of the word ESTABLISH was wrong? maybe the translator was wrong and it could be SPURRED...what do you think?

It's sad my above post somehow failed, I made a pretty long one now I'm pissed xd

Anyway in very short, Itachi is not lying, he didn't know about Obito, most likely he didn't even know Obito very well due to age diff.. Tbh, there might even be a connection between Obito and Itachis feelings towards protecting Konoha.

The problem in the chap u show me is that Itachi jumps from Madaras fight with Hashi to the establishment of Akatsuki, which is pretty far from eachother, so even Itachi don't know what happened in the mean time.

I think Oro knows more about that than Itachi, tbh..

Another thing I've been wondering a lot about. Kabuto said he revived Madara in his "Golden Age", and Madara didn't think anybody would know about his "Golden Age", which might suggest his Golden Age could be after he lost to Hashi? This might have something to do with how he made Yahiko start Akatsuki.. If I were to guess this is related to what the raikage said about akatsuki starting in the hidden mist. Akatsuki itself did not start there, but when Akatsuki started hunting the tailed beasts it started with the hidden mist, something just must have went wrong at the time, because Yagura was killed, and they had to wait 3 years before they could start their plan.

 

[kiros23]

It's sad my above post somehow failed, I made a pretty long one now I'm pissed xd

Anyway in very short, Itachi is not lying, he didn't know about Obito, most likely he didn't even know Obito very well due to age diff.. Tbh, there might even be a connection between Obito and Itachis feelings towards protecting Konoha.

The problem in the chap u show me is that Itachi jumps from Madaras fight with Hashi to the establishment of Akatsuki, which is pretty far from eachother, so even Itachi don't know what happened in the mean time.

I think Oro knows more about that than Itachi, tbh..

Another thing I've been wondering a lot about. Kabuto said he revived Madara in his "Golden Age", and Madara didn't think anybody would know about his "Golden Age", which might suggest his Golden Age could be after he lost to Hashi? This might have something to do with how he made Yahiko start Akatsuki.. If I were to guess this is related to what the raikage said about akatsuki starting in the hidden mist. Akatsuki itself did not start there, but when Akatsuki started hunting the tailed beasts it started with the hidden mist, something just must have went wrong at the time, because Yagura was killed, and they had to wait 3 years before they could start their plan.

thanks for your explanation and +rep for considering your theory somehow failed...

 

[SSJ3Gotenks]

Well he was obviously not always in the state. If you believe that he gave Nagato the rinnegan he must have been able to move freely for a time after the VoTE.

The bloody mist era was going on just before or at the same time as the war where Obito "died", if you take into consideration the age of Zabuza. Also Akatsuki began around that time as Nagato and the others were teens/young adults when it was started.

No it wasn't the Bloody Mist era was going on right before start of the Series because that is why ZAbuza and Haku left the village Zabuza wanted to kill the Mizukage and the Mizukage under Obito's influence was exterminating anyone with Kekkai Genkai

Quit making something out of nothing