[Theory] Hamura's disappearance and Hamura becoming Black Zetsu

KCMNaruto · Sep 24, 2014

Hello guys, I would like to talk about Hamura. I was a little bored and finally came with theory about Hamura's disappearance and possibility of him becoming Black Zetsu. Here I go:

Introduction of Hamura Ootsutsuki :

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^^ Hagoromo told Naruto about his Battle against Juubi where Hamura was revealed for first time. He along with Hagoromo participated in fight against Juubi and probably in sealing of Juubi as well.

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^^ Hagoromo split his power to both Naruto and Sasuke. Naruto gained Yang seal(originally Hagoromo's) while Sasuke gained Yin(originally Hamura's).

Hagoromo & Hamura and Naruto & Sasuke

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^^ Kaguya resembled Hagoromo and Hamura in Naruto and Sasuke while fighting them. I was questioning Hamura's purpouse myself.

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^^ Then Kaguya resembled Young Hagoromo with sun seal while watching Naruto. It is interesting because until now I was sure Hagoromo has both seals.

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^^ Sadly Kaguya was got sealed away too fast, not being explored properly.

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^^ Both Hagoromo and Hamura are brought in Kaguya's mind as she watches Juubi getting sealed.

Order of events of Ootsutsuki brothers era

Hagoromo and Hamura place seals on Juubi then seal it in Hagoromo:

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Hagoromo was Juubi Jinchurki

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Hagoromo extracted Ten tails chakra to giving them form created Tailed beasts:

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Hagoromo creating Moon on his death bed:

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Reason for Hamura's disappearance

Hagoromo stated that The Juubi or rather it's chakra(aka tailed beasts) and The Rinnegan was needed to cancel IT:

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that why Juubi was sealed in Hagoromo instead of Hamura. Soon after Hagoromo canceled/dispelled IT , he had problem to stablize chakra of Juubi. Hamura afraid of POSSOBILITY Juubi getting away decided to become part of Hagoromo, but instead of sharing body with Hagoromo Hamura wanted to watch over safety of the world from inside of Hagoromo, leaving his personality not present any more. The noble sacrifice and being hero in shadow was theme of manga a lot of times.

The one known as Sage of six paths is actually Hagoromo and Hamura fusion with Hagoromo's personality dominative.

Hamura becoming Black Zetsu

As I stated already Hamura sealed/fused himself with Hagoromo making him posses both Yin and Yang seals and all of that power. On his deathbed Hagoromo extracted ten tails chakra to create tailed beasts then send empty Juubi's husk/Gedo Mazou into space creating the moon.

This is where Black Zetsu and Hamura come:

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^^ Black Zetsu stated that he is also Kaguya's child and he came into existence/was born upon Gedo Mazou's sealing aka creation of Moon.

I believe Hamura loosing all his powers somehow fully sinking into Hagoromo was forcefully ripped from Hagoromo's body along with Gedo Mazou, then just before he could be sealed along with statue, he was took over by Rabbit chakra demon:

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The rabbit demon is source of evil, it was contained in forbidden fruit most likely.

Just likle Veritas theorized about:

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Hamura and Black Zetsu similarities

Byakugan powers:

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Black Zetsu possesing Hamura's knowledge and memories:

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Rabbit demon's influence:

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^^ Rabbit demon responsible for taking over Hamura's dying body preserved part of Kaguya's powers aka Rinnegan vision so Black Zetsu could rewrote part of Tablet's original script written by Hagoromo.

Rabbit demon preserving Kaguya's land controlling power at small degree:

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^^ It seems like Rabbit demon can contain small part of host abilities and preserves it when moving on to next host.

No transmigration for Hamura's charka. Lack of his existence in chakra from like Hagoromo:

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^^ Hagoromo's chakra was so strong that He could pass through Space and Time,
Then why the same didn't happen for Hamura ?

Because his chakra along with rotting body was took over by Demon rabbit becoming BZ.
There is reason why BZ can live so long.

Summary :

Hagoromo had yang seal while Hamura had moon seal
Hamura was alive all this time while Hagoromo was Juubi Jinchurki.
The Juubi was sealed in Hagoromo due to need of The Rinnegan wielder and having chakra of IT caster to dispel/cancel IT.
Hamura sacrificed his own freedom sealing/fusing with his brother make him gain both seals/powers while Hamura was living inside Hagoromo keeping Juubi at bay along with Hagoromo.
Hamura decided to stay inside Hagoromo to save the world at cost of loosing freedom. Hamura was forgotten by Shinobi's history but he is Hero working from shadows.
The one known as Sage of six paths is fusion of Hagoromo and Hamura with Hagoromo's personality dominative.
Powerless Hamura upon Gedo Mazou sealing was trapped in Gedo mazou then took over by Rabbit demon giving birth to Black Zetsu.
The Rabbit demon taking over Hamura's dying body becomes Black Zetsu

CREDITS: ★Ψ Veritas Ψ, me

Thanks for reading !

Please share your thoughts

spade3dg · Sep 24, 2014

This is actually a good theory. Didnt believe it until the part where Sasuke says "his voice changed". It kind of makes sense.

Parts I have to disagree on. It was already stated that Black zetsu was created shortly before Kaguya was sealed. Also Hagoromo wouldve mentioned his brother and him fusing to Naruto and the other guy.

Skull Knight · Sep 24, 2014

In my opinion Hamura is Lord Jashin.
And if there is part 3 he would be the villain.

LOCKKO REE · Sep 24, 2014

i disagree.... hamura has to do something with hyuga village i believe he will come in next episodes.....

HyuugaHeir · Sep 24, 2014

Great thoughts.
But why would Hamura want to revive Kaguya who in the first place they sealed?

Black Zetsu can be a product of the malice and evil cjakra of the juubi. Kaguya was supposed to bear a twin. Then she ate the fruit then BZ was born, but appeared some time after she was sealed by HH

BLAZE · Sep 24, 2014

Great Theory as always
nice read +Rep

KCMNaruto · Sep 24, 2014

spade3dg said:
This is actually a good theory. Didnt believe it until the part where Sasuke says "his voice changed". It kind of makes sense.

Parts I have to disagree on. It was already stated that Black zetsu was created shortly before Kaguya was sealed. Also Hagoromo wouldve mentioned his brother and him fusing to Naruto and the other guy.

Well, Black Zetsu was created the same moment when we heard about Hamura for last time, isn't it weird ?
Hagoromo could mention many things, but for what point. Naruto and Sasuke are more Ashura and Indra then Pre Jin Hagoromo and Hamura...

I think it fits perfectly. Check one section more I added. The similarities between BZ and Hamura can hint something.

Blaze Arirut said:
In my opinion Hamura is Lord Jashin.
And if there is part 3 he would be the villain.

Honestly I lost faith in Lord Jashin playing any part in the manga anymore.

LOCKKO REE said:
i disagree.... hamura has to do something with hyuga village i believe he will come in next episodes.....

Well that is your opinion so fine, but there is too much connection to just ignore it.

Also Hamura's noble sacrifice and being cursed becoming BZ stand as reason behind such low Hyuuga's clan importance, and why they were so much ignored and why they are not on Uchiha, Senjuu's level.

HyuugaHeir said:
Great thoughts.
But why would Hamura want to revive Kaguya who in the first place they sealed?

Black Zetsu can be a product of the malice and evil cjakra of the juubi. Kaguya was supposed to bear a twin. Then she ate the fruit then BZ was born, but appeared some time after she was sealed by HH

Well, Hamura was powerless and dying, that when Demon Rabbit acted and took over Hamura's rotting body by force getting some powers of him. It also allow him to exist as not just chakra but the body was rotting so he turned in some strange black substance. Hamura was possesed as BZ so he has no free will. Demon rabbit wanted Kaguya's back as she was perfect host for him.

Could be, but there is too much hints of connection between BZ and Hamura.

Has it never striked you why Hamura's chakra didn't transmigrate or still exist. It is because demon took over that why it can live so long it uses Hamura's chakra.

BLAZING STORM said:
Great Theory as always
nice read +Rep

Thanks a lot

Glad you enjoyed it

KCMNaruto · Sep 24, 2014

Anyone want to contribute ?

Please I would like to know more people's opinions about it

Ψ Veritas Ψ · Nov 2, 2014

Great theory. There is still room left for a quick flash on Hamura and even Kaguyas Background. I suspect the last chapter will be unusually long, wrapping up the backstory.

guts2nevergiveup · Nov 2, 2014

Hmm... familiar. Not bad at all tho

Xāvî1 · Nov 2, 2014

I don't think so!

KCMNaruto · Nov 2, 2014

Nagatō said:
I don't think so!

Why not ?

Please elaborate

patskie14 · Nov 2, 2014

No offence but I think your theories including this are full of sh1t.

VongolaX · Nov 2, 2014

Dude no, Haruma is too powerful for that.

Also how is Haruma in charge of the Ootsuki on the moon, when Black zetsu was on earth messing with the sage's writings and child Indra?

He mention Haruma in a third person point of view.

Rohan · Nov 2, 2014

Lol, I completely forgot about this thread, I am glad that the person above me bumped the thread. Lol

Anyways, I will support the basis of this thread with two points :-

Point - 1 :-

Dragonor said:
Just noticed a few things, so here I go.

Compare these two pictures :-

Hamura

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Figure in Juubi's mouth :-

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If you observe, you will notice that Hamura's staff has three prongs or three sides.

And so does the person's staff in the Juubi's mouth.

The similarities don't stop there, because there are more.

Like the two horns.

The long hair.

And the jeweled necklace on the cloak.

Which pretty much shows that Hamura and perhaps Hagorormo were absorbed/eaten by the Juubi during the sealing process.

Point - 2 :-

Black Zetsu's real identity :-

It all started with TBY's theory on Madara's comeback being similar to Black Zetsu :

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While his theory makes complete sense, in my opinion he was wrong about Kaguya being the Juubi because :-

1) During the sealing process, the component parts of the Juubi separated. Kaguya was a component part of the Juubi.

Juubi = Shinju + Kaguya (Rabbit Bijuu) + Nine Bijuu + Gedo Mazou imo.

2) The Shinju was also a component part of the Juubi. But it didn't appear during the sealing process, because it was never there in the first place :

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The main idea is that Kaguya was the Rabbit Bijuu. She was called the Rabbit Goddess for a reason.

Now, we move on to how Kaguya could have escaped via Madara similar to how Kaguya's will escaped via Black Zetsu.

Which is explained by this post pretty well :-

NaruSasuRival said:
This is clear, and you can see that actually the 10-th biju, the rabbit, did escape the mazou just like the others. you can see that unlike the other biju who exactly know what is happening, he is a bit surprised. Then, he did not follow the other biju but stay up and watching until he spit Madara. here is my second interpretation of the page.

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1. The Rabbit is out just like the other biju. Unlike the 9 bijus, he stay on his own

2. The Rabbit notice something inside him

3. He spit the thing inside him out.

4. Here, there is something very interesting. Following panel 3, we could say that it was Madara continuing to fall, but I think it is not Madara falling. If we compare the lines I circled in green, Madara was falling in panel 3 as the Rabbit spit him out. The line there are thin and represent really a body falling. On panel 4, there is no line of falling, but a continuous thick beam that has the same color as the Rabbit. This tells me the Rabbit transferred himself inside Madara after he spit him out. So basically, the Rabbit first spit Madara (3) then transfer himself into Madara (4). Madara's movement and the Rabbit transfer can be distinguished by the difference in lines from (3) to(4).

5. Madara is laying down, and I believed he is posed by the Rabbit, and the Rabbit was also summoned in the real world.

Now Compare Black Zetsu and Madara. There is some thing there in Madara's case which has not been shown in Black Zetsu's case.

And that missing link is :-

Madara Himself !

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Excuse my outburst Lol, But what I mean is that in order For Kaguya to escape, A Body , a pre-existing medium was required.

In the second case, it was Madara.

In the first case, in Black Zetsu's birth, who was the medium ?

Well, we need to go back to Rabbit Teth posting this.

To this picture showing someone being eaten by the Juubi :-

We don’t know for certain what happened to Hamura after the battle with the Juubi but I think that Kishi has planted a few seeds for Hamura’s eventual reveal. First during Madara’s flashback to the Juubi we were shown a mysterious figure that appeared inside the mouth of the Juubi:

You must be registered for see images

I think that Hamura was eaten during the brothers' battle with the Juubi.

Now let's review a few things about Kaguya's sealing :-

Hagoromo and Hamura sealed the Juubi.

You must be registered for see images

But, the main thing is that the Seals require Physical contact in order to do the job.

You must be registered for see images

You can also see Naruto and Sasuke retreating immediately to prevent being caught up in the sealing process.

You must be registered for see images

Now,

What if Hagoromo and Hamura were too late in retreating.

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Were eaten up/absorbed by the Juubi.

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The sealing process sealed the Juubi within Hagoromo making him the Juubi's jinchuriki.

Similar to how Chibaku Tensei (The sealing process) used Earth to seal Gedo Mazou, Here the Earth Was Hagoromo i.e; the container.

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While Kaguya put her power in Hamura and threw him away.

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Who will eventually became Black Zetsu.

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During the process, Hamura was brainwashed by Kaguya's power making him obsessed with her Revival.

You must be registered for see images

But, the memories of Hamura partially remain.

And Black Zetsu considers himself as Kaguya's son calling him "mother".

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Hamura was shown to have the Yin (Moon) seal according to the positioning.

The positioning is also complimentary.

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Hagoromo, Naruto with the Sun Seal.

Hamura, Sauske with the Moon Seal.

In Kaguya's memories; Hagoromo is shown with the Sun Seal.

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This shows that Hagoromo did not have the Moon/Yin seal from the beginning, he obtained it from it's true owner Hamura.

Hamura's Yin Seal might have transferred to Hagoromo during the Sealing process. Making Hagoromo have both seals.

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Notice how Black Zetsu's Voice Changes (Hamura's voice ?) and How Sasuke with the Yin Seal recognizes it (The Speech bubble indicates it's a thought).

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Now, as we know Black Zetsu was sealed in the recent sealing.

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While this might completely remove Black Zetsu's relevance, it's interesting to note that another half of Black Zetsu still exists.

The other lower half of Black Zetsu cut off by Chojoru.

Or did the sealing remove Kaguya's will and this will mark the return of the pure Hamura ?

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KCMNaruto · Nov 2, 2014

patskie14 said:
No offence but I think your theories including this are full of sh1t.

No offence taken, I am sad to hear that although

VariaBossX said:
Dude no, Haruma is too powerful for that.

Also how is Haruma in charge of the Ootsuki on the moon, when Black zetsu was on earth messing with the sage's writings and child Indra?

He mention Haruma in a third person point of view.

Well I stated clearly that Hamura gave Hagoromo all his power to help/ensure keeping Juubi at bay.
Even if you were right, then Hamura is dead anyway as a lot of years passed since his time.

Last sentence could be trick to mislead readers, Kishi has used it a lot of times

He was just rotting away body at his last moment and that when he was taken over by kaguya/Rabbit becoming BZ

Dragonor said:
Lol, I completely forgot about this thread, I am glad that the person above me bumped the thread. Lol

Anyways, I will support the basis of this thread with two points :-

Point - 1 :-

Point - 2 :-

Black Zetsu's real identity :-

It all started with TBY's theory on Madara's comeback being similar to Black Zetsu :
You must be registered for see links

While his theory makes complete sense, in my opinion he was wrong about Kaguya being the Juubi because :-

1) During the sealing process, the component parts of the Juubi separated. Kaguya was a component part of the Juubi.

Juubi = Shinju + Kaguya (Rabbit Bijuu) + Nine Bijuu + Gedo Mazou imo.

2) The Shinju was also a component part of the Juubi. But it didn't appear during the sealing process, because it was never there in the first place :
You must be registered for see links

The main idea is that Kaguya was the Rabbit Bijuu. She was called the Rabbit Goddess for a reason.

Now, we move on to how Kaguya could have escaped via Madara similar to how Kaguya's will escaped via Black Zetsu.

Which is explained by this post pretty well :-

Now Compare Black Zetsu and Madara. There is some thing there in Madara's case which has not been shown in Black Zetsu's case.

And that missing link is :-

Madara Himself !

You must be registered for see images

Excuse my outburst Lol, But what I mean is that in order For Kaguya to escape, A Body , a pre-existing medium was required.

In the second case, it was Madara.

In the first case, in Black Zetsu's birth, who was the medium ?

Well, we need to go back to Rabbit Teth posting this.

To this picture showing someone being eaten by the Juubi :-

We don’t know for certain what happened to Hamura after the battle with the Juubi but I think that Kishi has planted a few seeds for Hamura’s eventual reveal. First during Madara’s flashback to the Juubi we were shown a mysterious figure that appeared inside the mouth of the Juubi:

You must be registered for see images

I think that Hamura was eaten during the brothers' battle with the Juubi.

Now let's review a few things about Kaguya's sealing :-

Hagoromo and Hamura sealed the Juubi.

You must be registered for see images

But, the main thing is that the Seals require Physical contact in order to do the job.

You must be registered for see images

You can also see Naruto and Sasuke retreating immediately to prevent being caught up in the sealing process.

You must be registered for see images

Now,

What if Hagoromo and Hamura were too late in retreating.

You must be registered for see images

Were eaten up/absorbed by the Juubi.

You must be registered for see images

The sealing process sealed the Juubi within Hagoromo making him the Juubi's jinchuriki.

Similar to how Chibaku Tensei (The sealing process) used Earth to seal Gedo Mazou, Here the Earth Was Hagoromo i.e; the container.

You must be registered for see images

While Kaguya put her power in Hamura and threw him away.

You must be registered for see images

Who will eventually became Black Zetsu.

You must be registered for see images

During the process, Hamura was brainwashed by Kaguya's power making him obsessed with her Revival.

You must be registered for see images

But, the memories of Hamura partially remain.

And Black Zetsu considers himself as Kaguya's son calling him "mother".

You must be registered for see images

Hamura was shown to have the Yin (Moon) seal according to the positioning.

The positioning is also complimentary.

You must be registered for see images

Hagoromo, Naruto with the Sun Seal.

Hamura, Sauske with the Moon Seal.

In Kaguya's memories; Hagoromo is shown with the Sun Seal.

You must be registered for see images

This shows that Hagoromo did not have the Moon/Yin seal from the beginning, he obtained it from it's true owner Hamura.

Hamura's Yin Seal might have transferred to Hagoromo during the Sealing process. Making Hagoromo have both seals.

You must be registered for see images

Notice how Black Zetsu's Voice Changes (Hamura's voice ?) and How Sasuke with the Yin Seal recognizes it (The Speech bubble indicates it's a thought).

You must be registered for see images

Now, as we know Black Zetsu was sealed in the recent sealing.

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

While this might completely remove Black Zetsu's relevance, it's interesting to note that another half of Black Zetsu still exists.

The other lower half of Black Zetsu cut off by Chojoru.

Or did the sealing remove Kaguya's will and this will mark the return of the pure Hamura ?

You must be registered for see images

Excellent post

I approve and agree with everything you stated. I will edit and add more because I just scrolled through some text.

[Theory] Hamura's disappearance and Hamura becoming Black Zetsu

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KCMNaruto

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spade3dg

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