[Theory] Elder Son Dojutsu = Sharingan + Byakugan. Please Read

Creedo

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Well, according to your graph, Byakugan came from 3 tomoe sharingan. Prior to the graph you include the scan from the manga which says "Uchiha evolved from Hyuuga" which followed by logic gives "Sharingan evolved from Byakugan".

I mean, how do you know, or do you have any proof that Kakashi was wrong at any of those statements?
 

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Well, according to your graph, Byakugan came from 3 tomoe sharingan. Prior to the graph you include the scan from the manga which says "Uchiha evolved from Hyuuga" which followed by logic gives "Sharingan evolved from Byakugan".

I mean, how do you know, or do you have any proof that Kakashi was wrong at any of those statements?
i have clearly said that Kakashi was wrong about those statements, however he was not wrong that Uchiha and Hyuuga are related to each other.

besides the graph is fan made so i will delete it.
 

KGB Kakuzu

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I agree that they come from the Elder Son's Dojutsu, but I would argue a different way when it comes to analyzing Kakashi's quote.


1. He said it is rumored that the Sharingan comes from the Byakugan.

2. He stated as a fact that the Hyuga are Konoha's oldest bloodline.

The fact that he is confident and aware that the Hyuga are the oldest bloodline is very different from the rumor of the Sharingan's origins. The only other thing Kakashi was notably wrong in was the Sage's history, but he called him a MYTH. Notice that of the three... point number 2 with the bloodline is said in certainty.

This would have to mean that the Hyuga are the oldest clan, but with recent revelations, the context is different. As opposed to being the oldest clan of Konoha, they are the oldest clan residing in Konoha.

The powers of the Sharingan (even in basic form), and the Byakugan are vastly different as it is, and the idea of the Byakugan coming from the Sharingan makes little sense due to this difference of abilities. This means that as opposed from the Byakugan coming from the Sharingan or Vice-Versa, both come from the Elder Dojutsu itself.


At this point you are likely asking me how the Hyuga can be older than the Uchiha if the Elder's descendants are known as Uchiha... not Hyuga. To answer, I have two different plausible theories which relate to one another, but one deals with a specific example whereas the second is more general.


Firstly, the key is to remember that the manga says the descendants of the Elder Son became known as Uchiha. This means that there is an unknown time gap from the Elder Son, and the fist descendant group to associate themselves as "Uchiha".... this gap could be an immediate generation following (the Elder Son's Children), or possibly even several hundred years. With that in mind, I will proceed.


Theory One: Elder's Sons

The more specific example would be if the Elder Son himself had two sons. Considering that each generation would lessen itself from the Juubi's influence, it is possible they were literally born with Byakugan and Sharingan. However, more likely, both came with some weaker form of the Elder Dojutsu (which is probably the EMS).

From that stage, one son would have continued the hatred towards the Younger Son's descendants, and the other would have chosen not to focus on hatred... while this son may believe that Power brings peace or is vital, he found no reason to fight a blood feud against the Younger Descendants over it.

Turning away from this hatred, the eyes would have formulated into the Byakugan. The other son of the Elder continued to blood feud, and his eyes stayed as the EMS, but with passing generations the abuse and focus on hatred ended up weakening the eyes (for they originally found power in love) leading to the Black eyes of the Uchiha who have not awakened their eyes.

Quite simply, the Byakugan eyed brother formed Hyuga before Uchiha.


Branching Descent

A more generic rationale is the idea of off branching families. Clearly when you have the start of a family, your direct Sister/Brother (pending your gender) isn't going to become your wife/husband.... incest yes?! So clearly some off branching would occur to widen the gene pool to give the next generations evolutionary bodies. Since the period of time before the Elder's descendants were known as Uchiha is unknown... this could account for DECADEDS to CENTURIES of generations.

With that though, it is easily plausible that through off marriage branching (for example, Elder Descendant female marries out of clan, has a daughter and she also marries out of clan) would have eventually resulted in the Elder Son Dojutsu/Sharingan slowly flushing the Juubi's influence from it; however, at the same time the Elder Son's impressive Genes also began washing out leading to the unique powers of the Elder's eyes to also begin fading; however, the present abilities of the Byakugan remained.

Those that would become Uchiha, kept to their hatred, and better maintained their ancestors and marriages closer to the clan keeping much of the Elder Son's chakra genetics in tact.

Once again, due to the unknown passage of time, this once more gives way for an off branch/outsider descendant of the Elder Son to form Hyuga before the more devoted and strictly maintained bloodline formed Uchiha.



Considering the fact that Kakashi had no question as to the age of the Hyuga comparable to other clans (ESPECIALLY reinforced by the fact that not an extreme amount of time has passed that wouldn't be forgotten (I mean Hiruzen who'd have been one of the first generations of Konoha Shinobi was alive) means that knowledge of the Village's founding should be well established or known.

Furthermore, the Hyuga were introduced as a Noble Clan despite the fact that it wasn't even one of the first clans to join Konoha (being Akimichi and Sarutobi). The Sarutobi did not even become a Noble Clan which means Hyuga would have to have ancient ties and power to be recognized as a Noble Clan when one such as Sarutobi was not.


To Conclude: My chart...


1. Elder Dojutsu

2. EMS/Byakugan

3. MS

4. 3-Tomoe

5. 2-Tomoe

6. 1-Tomoe

7. Black Eyes



Thanks for your time if you read it all OP.... or anyone else for that matter.
 

Creedo

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i have clearly said that Kakashi was wrong about those statements, however he was not wrong that Uchiha and Hyuuga are related to each other.

besides the graph is fan made so i will delete it.
And clearly you didnt read my post carefully. I asked how do you know Kakashi was wrong? Do you have proof for that or is it just your opinion?
 

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I agree that they come from the Elder Son's Dojutsu, but I would argue a different way when it comes to analyzing Kakashi's quote.


1. He said it is rumored that the Sharingan comes from the Byakugan.

2. He stated as a fact that the Hyuga are Konoha's oldest bloodline.

The fact that he is confident and aware that the Hyuga are the oldest bloodline is very different from the rumor of the Sharingan's origins. The only other thing Kakashi was notably wrong in was the Sage's history, but he called him a MYTH. Notice that of the three... point number 2 with the bloodline is said in certainty.

This would have to mean that the Hyuga are the oldest clan, but with recent revelations, the context is different. As opposed to being the oldest clan of Konoha, they are the oldest clan residing in Konoha.

The powers of the Sharingan (even in basic form), and the Byakugan are vastly different as it is, and the idea of the Byakugan coming from the Sharingan makes little sense due to this difference of abilities. This means that as opposed from the Byakugan coming from the Sharingan or Vice-Versa, both come from the Elder Dojutsu itself.


At this point you are likely asking me how the Hyuga can be older than the Uchiha if the Elder's descendants are known as Uchiha... not Hyuga. To answer, I have two different plausible theories which relate to one another, but one deals with a specific example whereas the second is more general.


Firstly, the key is to remember that the manga says the descendants of the Elder Son became known as Uchiha. This means that there is an unknown time gap from the Elder Son, and the fist descendant group to associate themselves as "Uchiha".... this gap could be an immediate generation following (the Elder Son's Children), or possibly even several hundred years. With that in mind, I will proceed.


Theory One: Elder's Sons

The more specific example would be if the Elder Son himself had two sons. Considering that each generation would lessen itself from the Juubi's influence, it is possible they were literally born with Byakugan and Sharingan. However, more likely, both came with some weaker form of the Elder Dojutsu (which is probably the EMS).

From that stage, one son would have continued the hatred towards the Younger Son's descendants, and the other would have chosen not to focus on hatred... while this son may believe that Power brings peace or is vital, he found no reason to fight a blood feud against the Younger Descendants over it.

Turning away from this hatred, the eyes would have formulated into the Byakugan. The other son of the Elder continued to blood feud, and his eyes stayed as the EMS, but with passing generations the abuse and focus on hatred ended up weakening the eyes (for they originally found power in love) leading to the Black eyes of the Uchiha who have not awakened their eyes.

Quite simply, the Byakugan eyed brother formed Hyuga before Uchiha.


Branching Descent

A more generic rationale is the idea of off branching families. Clearly when you have the start of a family, your direct Sister/Brother (pending your gender) isn't going to become your wife/husband.... incest yes?! So clearly some off branching would occur to widen the gene pool to give the next generations evolutionary bodies. Since the period of time before the Elder's descendants were known as Uchiha is unknown... this could account for DECADEDS to CENTURIES of generations.

With that though, it is easily plausible that through off marriage branching (for example, Elder Descendant female marries out of clan, has a daughter and she also marries out of clan) would have eventually resulted in the Elder Son Dojutsu/Sharingan slowly flushing the Juubi's influence from it; however, at the same time the Elder Son's impressive Genes also began washing out leading to the unique powers of the Elder's eyes to also begin fading; however, the present abilities of the Byakugan remained.

Those that would become Uchiha, kept to their hatred, and better maintained their ancestors and marriages closer to the clan keeping much of the Elder Son's chakra genetics in tact.

Once again, due to the unknown passage of time, this once more gives way for an off branch/outsider descendant of the Elder Son to form Hyuga before the more devoted and strictly maintained bloodline formed Uchiha.



Considering the fact that Kakashi had no question as to the age of the Hyuga comparable to other clans (ESPECIALLY reinforced by the fact that not an extreme amount of time has passed that wouldn't be forgotten (I mean Hiruzen who'd have been one of the first generations of Konoha Shinobi was alive) means that knowledge of the Village's founding should be well established or known.

Furthermore, the Hyuga were introduced as a Noble Clan despite the fact that it wasn't even one of the first clans to join Konoha (being Akimichi and Sarutobi). The Sarutobi did not even become a Noble Clan which means Hyuga would have to have ancient ties and power to be recognized as a Noble Clan when one such as Sarutobi was not.


To Conclude: My chart...


1. Elder Dojutsu

2. EMS/Byakugan

3. MS

4. 3-Tomoe

5. 2-Tomoe

6. 1-Tomoe

7. Black Eyes



Thanks for your time if you read it all OP.... or anyone else for that matter.
I see from your point of view but concerning Kakashi's statement about Byakugan being the oldest bloodline has some doubts.

Part 1 of Naruto has very unexplained things and in Part 2 seems to have changed quite a lot of things. i merely took Kakashi's statement in conjunction with the statement of the Elder Son descendants to get to a proper conclusion.

Kakashi was not wrong about how Hyuuga and Uchiha are related to each other if we were to use our deductive powers and looking other scans.

all you said was right.
 

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And clearly you didnt read my post carefully. I asked how do you know Kakashi was wrong? Do you have proof for that or is it just your opinion?
1) Kakashi said ''they say'' which is a rumor. Rumors are things you hear from people therefore it is not a fact.

2) Kakashi said the Sharingan origins lies within the Hyuuga and this was wrong as it was later revealed that Sharingan came from the Elder Son whos descendants would become the Uchiha.

3) Kakashi said the Hyuuga are the oldest bloodline in the leaf village while it was the Uchiha with Senju found the village and Uchiha have Sharingan making it Uchiha are the oldest bloodline in the leaf village.

these are not opinions, but facts revealed in Part 2.
 

Creedo

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1) Kakashi said ''they say'' which is a rumor. Rumors are things you hear from people therefore it is not a fact.

2) Kakashi said the Sharingan origins lies within the Hyuuga and this was wrong as it was later revealed that Sharingan came from the Elder Son whos descendants would become the Uchiha.

3) Kakashi said the Hyuuga are the oldest bloodline in the leaf village while it was the Uchiha with Senju found the village and Uchiha have Sharingan making it Uchiha are the oldest bloodline in the leaf village.

these are not opinions, but facts revealed in Part 2.
1) You cant assume that when it is only a rumor, then it is definitely a lie. But so you did. The rumor itself didnt come out of thin air. There had to be some basis on which it was made.

2)It was later revealed indeed that Uchiha come from Elder Brother, but it was never said that sharingan comes from him too. If sharingan really came from Elder Brother then he would have it too. But he has a Dojutsu we dont know yet. So we can assume that Sharingan evolved later on, considering that probably Elder Brother had a mixed eye. Also, it is not like the first kid the Elder Brother had was a pure Uchiha with a Sharingan.

3) This point is not relevant to my statement.

All I mean to say is, that we can't assume that everything Kakashi said during Chuunin Exam was a lie, however we should assume that it is rather right, because weak as it is, it is still a manga fact (of course only those parts which haven't been proven wrong later in the manga)
 
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Uchihareborn207

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the color of those eyes are red and not pale.
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1.sage of six paths = yin (eyes) +yang (body)
2.yin = rinnegan =sage's eyes = elder son = spiritual energy = Uchiha (rinnegan = yin and not yin + yang)
3.The elder was born with the sage's eyes (rinnegan)
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4. when madara got hashirama DNA he got closer to the sage of six path DNA and that is why his eyes look like the eyes of the sage of six paths.
it make sense that the closer your dna get to the juuubi the more your eyes look like his.
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1) You cant assume that when it is only a rumor, then it is definitely a lie. But so you did. The rumor itself didnt come out of thin air. There had to be some basis on which it was made.

2)It was later revealed indeed that Uchiha come from Elder Brother, but it was never said that sharingan comes from him too. If sharingan really came from Elder Brother then he would have it too. But he has a Dojutsu we dont know yet. So we can assume that Sharingan evolved later on, considering that probably Elder Brother had a mixed eye. Also, it is not like the first kid the Elder Brother had was a pure Uchiha with a Sharingan.

3) This point is not relevant to my statement.

All I mean to say is, that we can't assume that everything Kakashi said during Chuunin Exam was a lie, however we should assume that it is rather right, because weak as it is, it is still a manga fact (of course only those parts which haven't been proven wrong later in the manga)
1-how can i not when he clearly said ''They Say''. when there is any sentence that has ''they say'' then its obvious that it is merely a rumor. Just like how it was said that Kyuubi can cause tsunami with its tails. Just like how rinnegan cam e from heaven. all of these examples are rumors and none of them have turned out to be true. byakugan giving birth to Sharingan is not fact. every secret of the Sharingan lies within the Uchiha Tablets. Only those with Sharingan and rinnegan can read it. The Uchiha Tablets never said anything about Byakugan being the Sharingan originator. Whatever people say was a lie. yes a lie.

2-That doesn't make any sense. The Uchiha KKG is the Sharingan itself meaning all Uchiha members have Sharingan in their blood. Them being descendants of the elder son means Sharingan has also came from the Elder Son.

the only thing Kakashi was right about is Uchiha and Hyuuga are related to each other. everything else is a lie as revealed in Part 2.
 

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the color of those eyes are red and not pale.
You must be registered for see images

1.sage of six paths = yin (eyes) +yang (body)
2.yin = rinnegan =sage's eyes = elder son = spiritual energy = Uchiha (rinnegan = yin and not yin + yang)
3.The elder was born with the sage's eyes (rinnegan)
You must be registered for see images

4. when madara got hashirama DNA he got closer to the sage of six path DNA and that is why his eyes look like the eyes of the sage of six paths.
it make sense that the closer your dna get to the juuubi the more your eyes look like his.
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i stopped reading at the bold. You need to check the crap you post.

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Rinnegan = Uchiha + Senju DNA not Uchiha DNA alone.
 

Uchihareborn207

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i stopped reading at the bold. You need to check the crap you post.

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Rinnegan = Uchiha + Senju DNA not Uchiha DNA alone.
hahahahahaha i knew you would post this but it has not been proved how you awaken the rinnegan (and we still don't know what the sharingan and the rinnegan is)

1.we still don't know how do you awaken the rinnegan(just transplanting senju DNA did nothing)
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so its possible that you grow old and dies without awakening it. in other words something needs to happen in order to awake the rinnegan( time is not related with the rinnegan's awakening and senju DNA too)
 

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hahahahahaha i knew you would post this but it has not been proved how you awaken the rinnegan (and we still don't know what the sharingan and the rinnegan is)

1.we still don't know how do you awaken the rinnegan(just transplanting senju DNA did nothing)
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so its possible that you grow old and dies without awakening it. in other words something needs to happen in order to awake the rinnegan( time is not related with the rinnegan's awakening and senju DNA too)
the scan you posted pretty much soloed your argument.

read the scan again:
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Nagato is Uzumaki and he has Senju blood within him.

Lineage Definition: Direct descent from a particular ancestor; ancestry

this means Nagato is combination of Uzumaki and Senju the same way Tsunade is.

Here is another translation:
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Nagato carries the Senju blood within him. Madara awaking the rinnegan in old age doesn't contradict the fact you need Uchiha + Senju DNA to awaken it. stop changing manga facts.
 

Uchihareborn207

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the scan you posted pretty much soloed your argument.

read the scan again:
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Nagato is Uzumaki and he has Senju blood within him.

Lineage Definition: Direct descent from a particular ancestor; ancestry

this means Nagato is combination of Uzumaki and Senju the same way Tsunade is.

Here is another translation:
You must be registered for see images


Nagato carries the Senju blood within him. Madara awaking the rinnegan in old age doesn't contradict the fact you need Uchiha + Senju DNA to awaken it. stop changing manga facts.
manga fact?
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Fact :«The elder was born with the sage's eyes (rinnegan)»
 
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